Best Orc Pentathlete

[Harad]

Includes the categories of Death Marching, threats, insults, brute strength, and low cunning.

[Snaga]

Can't we have sadistic and violent conduct?

[Bill the Pony]

Yeah, but sexathlete might give the wrong associations...

[Harad]

I am shocked shocked that Ugluk hasnt garnered any votes with such classic lines as:

Curse you! You're as bad as the other rabble: the maggots and the apes of Lugburz. No use charging with them. They'd just squeal and bolt...

The pendulum has swung in the other direction. Ugluk should get some votes...but should he win? Consider this cogent analysis, posted by V of K:

Grishnakh's orcs death-march is the most impressive of the lot if you think about it. He leaves Ugluk some distance west of Parth Galen, goes back to the river, reports in, waits for reinforcements, and then legs it back across Rohan and catches up with Ugluk.

[Snaga]

Since my personal fave Grishnakh is starting to fall behind to Ugluk, time to state my case.

Ugluk may run pretty fast across the green of Rohan. But Grishnakh goes with him for half a day from Parth Galen. Insults Ugluk, but manages to get a bunch of Moria orcs to kop the flak. Legs it back to the river. Reports into the Nazgul, gets 40 buddies across the river. Then legs it back across Rohan, and catches up Ugluk's supposed Uber-orcs. He then insults Ugluk again, gets away with it again, joins his group, and would have stolen his prize captives from under his nose if it wasn't for a lucky shot from a filthy horse-boy. Sorry Ugluk, but you've polluted your gene pool with pathetic man-chromosones. The original is still the best!

[aragil]

This ain't even going to be a contest-
Witness Ugluk's many winning qualities:
Sex Appeal- Born of the enduring love of Man for Orc
Persuasive Qualities- Remember how he massaged the Moria troops into returning to Isengard? What was it he said? Oh yes, 'Whack!' (with his cleaver).
Stamina- Grishnakh might have brought his boys across Rohan faster on the return trip, but I have proof that Ugluk made it to Parth Galen in less than an hour. Saruman sent him to replace Lurtz.

[Harad]

Not only that but Ugluk personally patrolled the Gap of Rohan, at least 42 miles across, running back and forth on half hour intervals from Sept 27 thru Dec 11 --then taking a break for Uruk-Hai-nuka.

[aragil]

Actually, Ugluk was just patrolling the Gap to train for the Death March. It wasn't until Ugluk left to grab the Halflings that Theodred was able to launch his offensive on Isengard!

[Harad]

I cant deny that Ugluk was Magnificent. But a Pentathlon is more than one event. (Out of 10 points best)

--------------------Ugluk--------Grishnakh

Death Marching-------------10---------10
Insults---------------------8----------9
Threats--------------------10----------8
Brute Strength-------------10----------8
Low Cunning-----------------6---------10

Total----------------------44---------45

You see that Ugluk was way ahead until the last event, but just fell short in the Cranial Department.

[aragil]

Perhaps we should look at the best sexathlete. As I noted, Ugluk had far greater charisma than Grishnakh. Nobody's going for hairy arms these days.

Hey! Who just voted for Grishnakh? I saw that!

While we're sitting here, I'll also put in my bits for the other Orcs.

Gorbag-loads of low cunning, questionable on the Death Marching (how long did it take him to get from Morgul to Ungol?) I think he's really hurt by the fact that he let Shagrat trample all over him without getting any insults back.

Shagrat-Pretty admirable Death Marcher- able to get from Ungol to Barad-dur in two days, whilst Frodo and Sam spent the better part of a week just getting to Mt. Doom. Shagrat's also the best insult dispenser of the bunch- look at his zingers while stomping on Gorbag's head. Also bested Gorbag in contest of brute strength. Low cunning is not his thing, he seemed to go for unswerving loyalty to his master, much like my good buddy Ugluk.

Grishnakh-I just don't like schemers and slinkers. Grishnakh was both.

[Snaga]

If we're scoring for sex appeal I think Shagrat might have a built in advantage! He also would do well in the 'sadistic violence' category. He killed one of Gorbag's lot by squeezing his eyes out. There's nothing like getting up close and personal!

If I have to concede a weakness in Grishnakh its that he just doesn't kill often enough or nastily enough.

[Harad]

Its all breeding.

You got yer Saruman Orcs, yer Mordor Orcs, and yer Nazgul Orcs. Clearly Gorbag as a representative of the last, hardly gets out of the starting blocks. Then the argument devolves to a recapitulation of that dread-ed thread U vs U-H. Who cooked up the best Orcs between the S-boys?

And what about chromosomes? Would Ugluk pass the post-competition tests? Or would he be declared ineligible because he has one "y" and one "o" chromosome while Grishnakh is a pure "oo"?

[aragil]

Ah yes VoK, I forget 'shag' means something different on your side of the water. Has it always been a common saying in England? I wonder if Tolkien could have possibly put in such a vulgar name on purpose.

Harad- Doubtless Ugluk would pass the chromosome test. One thing I have learned from U vs U-h is that the Isengarders are referred to as Orcs, even though they have some human genetic material. If Tolklien considers them Orcs, doubtless the officials of the Orc-Pentathlon would as well.

[Mormegil]

And the results are just in for the Orc Pentathlon....

Gold: Grisnakh
Silver: Ugluk
Bronze: Shagrat
And Gorbag was extremely poor, finishing in last place.

Now lets all stand for the national anthem of Mordor....

*Grishnakh stands proud and gloats to Ugluk*
*Ugluk smashes Grishnakh around the head with a club*
*Grishnakh and Shagrat team up and tear Ugluk apart*:)


anyway, Grishnakh wins by a mile.

[Tar-Elenion]

Grishnakh gets in some good 'zingers' as well.
Who can forget such a memorable line as:

"Uglúk u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob búbhosh skai".

In PoME this is translated as:
"Uglúk to the cesspool, sha! the dungfilth; the great Saruman-fool, skai!"

A different translation (given by JRRT) was published in Vinyar Tengwar:
"Uglúk to the dung-pit with stinking Saruman-filth, pig-guts, gah!"

[aragil]

Excellent, Ugluk still leading the pack. I'm telling you all, sex-appeal sells. Now if he can just pass the chromosome test and avoid running afoul of the Orc-Olympic rules committee...
Harad- when are you going to post the scoring for Shagrat and poor Gorbag. If it helps Gorbag at all, I'll mention that his band was probably outnumbered and in unfamiliar territory at Cirith Ungol, and he still nearly led them to a victory. Just that untimely wheezing (or whatever it was), else it would have been Gorbag stomping on Shagrat and dispensing the insults.

Hey! How dare VoK plagiarize an idea I rightfully stole from Tolkien!http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=38298#post38298
Where's an indignant smily when you're trying to show humor?

[Harad]

The scoring for Shagrat and Gorbag is TBD as more research is required (see below). They did most of their work in TTT.

I most agree with Aragil's analysis of the chromosome test results. Oh those were simpler days, when no one worried whether you were this species or that species, just good clean competition.

Another possible problem, I hesitate to mention, was the Orc Draught that both Ugluk and Grishnakh may have been imbibing, giving them an unfair advantage over Shagrat, and perhaps resulting in them failing the doping test.

Being a Grishnakh man, my own self, I sympathize with Mormegil's wish list, but note that among the democratic participants, Ugluk still holds a lead. Get out the vote! Nevertheless the stirring National Anthem of Mordor did bring a tear to my eye (and a little queasiness to my liver).

Tar-E's quote demonstrates why we Grishnakh supporters are so unwavering.

Finally there may be a rennaissance of support for The Spy that Shagratted Me, as I glean new respect from info contained in several UvsU-H postings.

[aragil]

I don't know Harad, best post something for Gorbag and Shagrat now as voter-enthusiasm seems to be ebbing. If MTV's 'Rock the Vote' has taught us anything about politics (and it hasn't), it's that you need to constantly be shoving the issues into people's faces so that they finally vote out of annoyance: 'All right, all right, I'll vote already! Just shut up about the damned issues and let's get back to MTV Spring Break clips!'

[Harad]

I'd like to...but I am temporarily embarassed by lack of TTT. I will troll online then...Anyway as Ugluk's campaign manager, I think you should be proud of a job well done. The polls are not closed but the champagne is being chilled in Ugluks HQ.

(If only that 3rd party maggot Shagrat hadnt siphoned off the crucial swing vote of independent Lugburz Ape Voters)

[aragil]

Of course, in my opinion Shagrat should have got the Mordor party nod over that slinker Grishnakh, but oh well.

As for Ugluk, what can I say? The campaign pretty much ran itself. A deciding moment was probably the famed Ugluk-Grishnakh debates on 'Which direction to go':

Grishnakh: 'Swine is it? How do you folk like being called swine by the muck-rakers of a dirty little wizard? It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant.'
Ugluk: (Shouts for mates, swiftly beheads two Grishnakh supporters)
Grishnakh: (Tucks tail and slinks off to Anduin to discuss new campaign strategy with Nazgul)

Ah Ugluk, such economy of words in a debate. Too bad you don't get politics like that anymore.



Now, putting in a 'rah' for Shagrat, who clearly deserves the silver over Grishnakh:

Death Marching- Makes it to Barad-dur in two days, while it takes Sam and Frodo 10 days to cover half of that distance. Notably, Shagrat does this journey while bearing a wound which has nearly incapacitated his left arm. Good stuff!

Threats-'Come here and I'll squeeze your eyes out, like I did to Radbug just now. And when some new lads come, I'll deal with you: I'll send you to Shelob.'
'You must go, or I'll eat you.'
'I'll put red maggot-holes in your belly first.'

Insults-(to Gorbag)'You fool. You've been talking very clever, but there's a lot you don't know though most other folk do.'
(of Frodo) 'this little Filth'
'that filthy rebel Gorbag'

Brute Strength- Squeezing the eyes out of Radbug and stomping on Gorbag's corpse while licking his bloody knife- pretty brutish stuff

Low Cunning-Just not Shagrat's game. To his credit he did figure out that Shelob stunned Frodo rather than killing him, and he probably extended his life by two days by getting out of Ungol before the Nazgul arrived. He also figured out what Gorbag was about to kill him when he heard the filthy rebel hissing.

[Harad]

Hold the presses. I have a line on some newly discovered, unpublished work, "Grishnakh: The Early Years." We see Grishnakh as an Orcling, his unfortunate family circumstances, his father always out terrorizing the neighborhood and his mother a shameless Orchussy. Grishnakh, however, is a studious sort, learning insults and threats from the Orc veterans of the Balin campaign, while they sit around the campfire roasting prisoners.

Grishnakh splits non-combatants' heads with a homemade axe and doesnt think twice about marching hundreds of miles thru the snow to burn down a library. He rises in the ranks of the Orcganization thru superior demonstrations of lording over underlings and sucking up to Nazgul. As a bonus, we see an early Shagrat, another up and comer, as the two nearly fight to the death over a mess of potage, anticipating their bitter pentathalon contest years later.

[Lantarion]

And don't miss the new hit single, "Ugluk u bagronk", by Grishnak's long-lost dj, Snaga II! :p
Hey, that reminds me; you left out the snaga from your list!

[aragil]

Snaga would just steal more votes from Grishnakh. Snaga is weak relative to Shagrat, and relies on Insults and Low Cunning, rather than the more 'traditional' orc characteristics of Death Marching, Threats, and Brute Strength. These are the same two qualities that Grishnakh must rely on in his contest with that superior physical specimen: Ugluk the Magnificent.

Incidentally, when are we going to give nicknames to the other participants. Grishnakh the Great? Shagrat the Sadistic? Gorbag the Abominable? Snaga the Sneak?

Actually, I'll take the honors of scoring Snaga:

Dath Marching-------------1 (refused to leave Cirith Ungol)
Insults---------------------9 (flaunts Shagrats authority in the tower)
Threats---------------------6 (says that he'll shoot Shagrat, but doesn't back it up)
Brute Strength-------------3 (just not in the snaga repetoire)
Low Cunning---------------7 (manages to stay alive during 'Massacre on the Mountain' event, yet leaves ladder up to trap door when he knows the 'great Elf' is still in the building)

Overall--------------------26
I guess that's why the S boys looked to improve on the Snaga design.

[Harad]

I am appealing, literally begging for you uncommitted voters--and there are many of you out there--to give Grishnakh another look.

First consider his appearence: The sloping forehead, protruding jaw, the yellow fangs, drool dripping, heavily muscled and very hairy arms with knuckles easily dragging on the ground, even while Death-marching at a pace that would put a modern-day Cheetah to shame. Especially you women out there should appreciate this vision of pre-housebroken masculinity. Some might say a Middle-Earth version of Rocky, or at least Rambo.

This is an Orc who has won more battles than he has fought. He is an inspiration to a whole generation of Mordorians who kept a little black book of his threats and insults:

"They might think that Ugluk's shoulders needed relieving of a swollen head."

A classic line that you might hear Don Rickles say in one of his Las Vegas main room routines.

"Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with filthy white badges?...and I Grishnakh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool."

Great insults and not just insulting anybody, but a Wizard, until recently the Leader of the White Council! Grishnakh has got guts, and is not afraid to tell it like it is.

"..muckrakers of a dirty little wizard..It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant."

Here's low cunning at its best. Grishnakh reminds his audience of his campaign promise that, he Grishnakh, will not eat them, whereas his rival Ugluk, gives every indication that he WILL eat them.

And who can forget,

"My dear tender little fools, everything you have and everything you know will be gotten out of you in due time: everything!"

Mixing both insults and threats! Can any deny that this is a deserving champion? Please, if you can find it in your hearts, and want the best Orc for the job, vote for the only Orc with your mind in mind, Grishnahk.

presented by the Grishnakh for Champion, Pentathlete Action Committee

[Snaga]

What about Azog? I think its only fair we have Moria's finest.


Death Marching-------------3 (a bit of a stay-at-home type - rarely leaves Moria)
Insults---------------------9 (throws Thror's head out of the doors of Moria with his name branded on his forehead. 'Here's your fee, beggar-beard' whilst throwing a bag of coins at Thror's companion Nar. )
Threats---------------------8 (threatens to kill and similarly brand any other dwarf entering Moria.)
Brute Strength-------------11! (slayer of Thror - a dwarf-king. None of our other contestants come close to that scalp. Also Nain, father of Dain Ironfoot)
Low Cunning---------------9(Shows considerable tactical nous as a war commander. Out-thinks Nain in one-to-one combat. Even knows Dwarf-runes - an orc scholar!)

Overall------------------40 - not bad at all, but just needs to get out more.

[aragil]

Gah! As I have been imbibing chilled Orc-drought, the chief-nemesis of my campaign has staged a comeback, nearly catching my redoubtable champion. Has the nefarious campaign leader of Grishnakh tricked me into celebrating before all the votes are counted? Have I shot myself in the foot by touting Shagrat the Sadistic, who shares many of the same traits as Ugluk the Magnificent?
Well, no more slouching from this campaign manager! From now on it will be constant campaigning on my part. I shall become a tireless Orc-man amongst the Uruk-hai!
First order of business will be to ask for an investigation by the Orc Olympic rules committee. It has been brought to my attention that Harad has been accused of logging in under the aliases of 'squeeky' and (best of all) 'lilhobo'. I would like to be assured that Harad has not used these alleged alia to vote multiple times for Grishnakh.
Second, I would like an investigation as to whether or not many of the thousands of Ugluk supporters world-wide have not lost ISP service in the midst of voting, or whether their votes have not otherwise been miscounted. I have heard that the web-browsers used in certain counties in Florida have placed the icon for Gorbag confusingly near the icon for Ugluk. Florida is a decidedly un-Morgul state, yet there is every possibility that the misguided vote for Gorbag the Abominable came from one of these very counties.
Thirdly, I would like to point out some of the intangibles posessed by the goodly Ugluk. Ugluk compares favorably with other athletic legends. He has the cool leadership of a Joe Montana, the unsurpassed individual talent of a Michael Jordan, and the gleaming white teeth of a John Elway. Even while Death Marching Ugluk still takes the time to ensure that his fangs do not yellow like those of his opponents. Also look at his ability to reach across orcish tribal boundaries to lead. Grishnakh was only able to lead his homogenous clones from Mordor. Ugluk not only had his largish lads to follow him, but also earned the support of the Mountain Maggots with his now classic 'Whack-Whack!' speech at the foot of the Emyn Muil, as well as his stirring 'Whack-Whack-Whack!' address following the departure of Grishnakh and the Hobbits. Surely such pan-orcish open-mindedness should be espoused above the selfishness and low cunning displayed by Grishnakh? Also, witness the glorious death of my champion, taken down in hand to hand combat by the future King of Rohan. By comparison Grishnakh squeels like a school-girl while being skewered by some unknown Whiteskin. Ugluk is exactly the sort of champion this Pentathlon needs- cool, calm, collect, and almost able to match a king in combat. Compare this with the shrieking of Grishnakh, and it becomes clear where your vote belongs.
Finally, I will appeal to the Shagrat supporters. Surely the qualities that you admire in the Captain of Cirith Ungol are the very ones perfected in that Magnificent champion of Isengard: tireless Death Marching; frequent insults using the derogatory handle 'snaga'; threats followed up with violence; displays of Brute Strength dished out on other, inferior Orcs; and a showing of loyalty to respective masters which are far more endearing than 'low cunning'. Aye, we should not divide our votes and so allow the cowardly Grishnakh to triumph. We should unite, and so be sure that our common values of Brute Strength and Violence vanquish the cravenly qualities of empty Insulting and Low Cunning! In order to ensure a mutual victory, Ugluk the Magnificent formally requests that Shagrat the Sadistic be considered his running (Death Marching) mate. Together we will see a more Brutish and less Cunning tomorrow!

[Harad]

Those that cry conspiracy are the ones we should put our Eye on first, my friends. The "aragil" consortium has Shirley cooked the vote by bringing in Ringers of all descriptions. When was the last time the real "Greenwood" was heard from? Was "Foe-hammer" a code name for an early pre-Aragil trial balloon. Uncovering the stone, reveals maggots galore.

Furthermore, and most Snagardly: I know Shagrat. I admire Shagrat. Ugluk is no Shagrat. Shagrat, the Orc himself, said to me: "Harad, if I can't win on my own, I beseech my supporters to cast their votes for the only true 'short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground,' my fiend and erstwhile companion in Mordors, Orcficers Training School, Grishnakh the Great."

Moving words indeed. Please do not let out future Pentathlete Champion be beholden to the special interests of the Gorbag-Snaga-Azog axis of Evil. The only Axis of Evil you will ever need is Grishnakh, and Shagrat his committed supporter.

[aragil]

aragil is as old as the hills- the 27th registered member of these boards, predating such 'old fogies' as Grond and Greymantle, and especially Foe-Hammer!

Having looked deeply into the little mind of Shagrat, I am positive that the Captain of Cirith Ungol abhors everything Grishnakh stands for, especially the girlish shrieking. Three cheers for victory! Forth the Brutish and Small-Minded! Down with the Weak and Cunning! Shagrat for Ugluk!

ps- V of K, if you wanted a contender you should have picked Bolg the son of Azog. Many of the same qualities as the Old Man, but more willing to Death March across the entire north of Middle-earth.

[Harad]

old Man Willow was old too...still his heart was black.

Just like Grishnakh who was cunning, brutish, and "girlish" enuf to hobnob with the Nazgul, and sit in the Boardroom of the Eye, either of which would knock the wind out of that Puffed Up Adder, Ugluk. If you need a swell-headed Orc to smash his own head against the side of a mountain, until his head is a bloody pulp, then Ugluk is your orc. On the other hand if you want some cunning, yes the lowest cunning, to temper that brutish strength, then its:

GRISHNAKH GRISHNAKH, our Orc, GRISHNAKH

Just marvel at the following passage, the brilliant insults, the exquisitely developed threats, the "terrifying" brutish strength. Cunning so low that he almost escaped. And just imagine if he would have escaped--what wonderful Death Marching we would have been treated to, whilst holding 2 hobbits under his armpits. Thrilling! "An evil shadow" indeed!

Curse you, you filthy little vermin! - he hissed. - Untie your legs? I'll untie every string in your bodies. Do you think I can't search you to the bones? Search you! I'll cut you both to quivering shreds. I don't need the help of your legs to get you away-and have you all to myself! Suddenly he seized them. The strength in his long arms and shoulders was terrifying. He tucked them one under each armpit, and crushed them fiercely to his sides; a great stifling hand was clapped over each of their mouths. Then he sprang forward, stooping low. Quickly and silently he went, until he came to the edge of the knoll. There, choosing a gap between the watchers, he passed like an evil shadow out into the night, down the slope and away
westward towards the river that flowed out of the forest. In that direction there was a wide open space with only one fire.

[Snaga]

Originally posted by aragil
ps- V of K, if you wanted a contender you should have picked Bolg the son of Azog. Many of the same qualities as the Old Man, but more willing to Death March across the entire north of Middle-earth.
Huh? Bolg son of Azog, aka the Great Goblin who captures Bilbo and the dwarves in 'The Hobbit'. He gets killed by Gandalf if I recall correctly, and his captives escape. His followers death-march quite effectively to Erebor for the battle of 5 armies, but Bolg himself is dead. Perhaps there is another death-march that I'm not aware of?

I also suspect that his opportunity to score in many of the other categories will have suffered, because I'm sure his threatening and abusive language will have been toned down to meet the requirements of a childrens story.

[Harad]

Aragil is just trying to shift attention from the fact that the Mordor Orcs are trampling Ugluk underfoot...as if Shagrat would EVER ally himself with Ugluk...it is to laugh, harshly.

Since the Pentathlon Champion is a parliamentary vote, I expect that within the Mordor caucus, Grishnakh will be named Prime Pentahlete, whilst Shagrat will be Pentathlete Without Portfrodio.

[aragil]

I read the poll as 'Choose the best Orc Pentathlete.' This is not to be confused with 'Elect the committee which will later select Prime Pentathlete in a parliamentary manner.' The democratic members of the board are speaking, and right now it appears that Ugluk is staving off Grishnakh by 200 voters in Florida. Best if the Grishnakh supporters beat the rush and start looking for 'dimpled chads' right now. Ugluk will be available for comment in the 'victory room' of his campaign headquarters at the scenic Orthanc building of downtown Isengard. Celebratory Orc draughts for all!

[Harad]

Now that Grishnakh has pulled firmly ahead, I of course agree with Aragil totally. Its time to end the poll and celebrate the Reign of Grishnakh the Great. Losing candidates will be recycled.

[Mormegil]

Yay, I knew Grishnakh would win. Is Grishnakh now gonna do a world tour or something to meet all his fans. I would love to meet the big dude and shake his hand.:D

[aragil]

As the Ugluk crew know only too well, a single vote is not 'firmly ahead', and Ugluk and I have no intentions of conceding top prize. Where Harad managed to find those extra votes for Grishnakh, I'll never know. Personally I think he intimidated his pet snaga to vote along the party line. For Shame!
Incidentally, I see that there has been another vote for Gorbag the Abominable. Perhaps he should be upgraded to Gorbag the Sub-par, or Gorbag the Mediocre?

pps to V of K, Bolg son of Azog was the leader of the Orc forces at the battle of the 5 armies (and hence an admirable Death Marcher), not the great goblin. Bolg and his bodyguard slew Thorin, Fili, and Kili. They themselves were only slain by the onslought of Beorn the bear-man. I'm sure that Bolg went down without the girlish shrieking, unlike some current leaders of the pentathlon.

[Harad]

Lets get this straight: shrieking is in the fine tradition of Evil. Banshees shriek. The Nazgul themselves wail, and what is a "wail" but a shriek by another name. Even Sauron was known to shriek on ocassion. The only one that didnt shriek was that two-bit Wizard of yours because he was too surprised by that pig-sticker in his back.

So, the campaign continues. You will not find Grishnakh failing in this marathon. Death March onward, valiant Orcs of the Big Red Eye!

And, let me pass on the thanks of the Orc himself, Grishnakh the Great, to his loyal supporters such as Mormegil, without whose help--posting posters, driving Snagas to the voting booths, Orcsitting while their parents voted-- this victory would not have been possible.

[aragil]

Just be careful that Grishnakh does not stumble over his own hands as the ape of Lugburz Death Marches to victory. I'd hate to hear him give in to another fit of shrieking!

[Snaga]

Ugluk u ghâsh!!! Grishnakh durbatulûk! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[aragil]

Eep! Another vote for Grishnakh! I must cry 'foul'. That is now 2 votes for Gorbag, 7 votes for Grishnakh, and 3 votes for Shagrat, all since the last vote for Ugluk. This could not possibly be a reflection on the worth of my candidate.

Witness 4 of the recent registrations for usernames on these boards, with 1 post between the lot of them:

snaga1
Ugluk
The Lidless Eye
and the most suspect of all...
ShirleyC

Clearly Harad is rigging this vote, and therefore Grishnakh should be replace with snaga. See that all you voters out there- a vote for Grishnakh is really a vote for Snaga!

[Harad]

How sad that desperate Ugluk supporters now criticize Grishnakh's large powerful hands--hands that can hold one halfling each. Hands at the end of orcly arms with hair matted in the blood of defeated foes. Hands with large knobby knuckles that drag forcefully on the ground while Grishnakh Death Marches on crooked-legs to the harsh shrieks of success. Hands that have Orc-hestrated this Victory.

[Snaga]

Aragil you filthy Tark you speak of what is beyond the reach of your muddy dreams. That's cursed rebel talk and I'll stick you if you don't shut it down, see?

[Harad]

snaga1, my dear, Grishnakh welcomes you. And you will get that "nudgenudgenudgewinkwink"-flesh, not because you support him, as all should, but because Grishnakh is the one who takes cares that Evil will triumph and all shall eat well and drink deeply.

[aragil]

Originally posted by snaga1
Aragil you filthy Tark you speak of what is beyond the reach of your muddy dreams. That's cursed rebel talk and I'll stick you if you don't shut it down, see?

And as that Magnificent Champion of Isengard stated: 'You (snaga) and the other scouts should all have your ears cut off! You half-trained Mountain Maggot.'

[aragil]

At last the votes begin coming back in. The Death March to the championship seems to be approaching a shrieking pitch. Time to pull out the most brutish weapons I can find. At long last they will come, the threats and insults of Ugluk the Magnificent:

'"But what are we going to do at sunrise?" said some of the Northerners.
"Go on running," said Ugluk. "What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?"
"But we can't run in the sunlight."
"You'll run with me behind you," said Ugluk.'

The best thing about this threat? The little Maggots really did run in the sun. No idle threats on the part of our Orc Ugluk.

[Harad]

Its brutally clear that the Orc who deserves this honor is the Orc who best exemplifies Evil. Its an Orc that, had he been making the decisions at Parth Galen, would have taken the halflings straight across the Anduin and into Mordor to be flayed naked in the presence of the Big Red Eye. This Orc tried multiple times to cunningly influence events during the Death March. Finally he gave the last full measure of devotion to see his nightmare come true. Despite woeful support from higher ups, this Orc came within a spear thrust of effecting the destruction of Middle Earth. There is only one Orc that fits this description. Ladies and Gentleorcs, I give you:

Grishnakh the Great

[Mormegil]

Hear Hear, Harad.

Grishnakh is a worthy champion.

[Kraas]

I just have to say...this is a hilarious thread.

Ah yes...I am a Grishnakh supporter. I mean, I've always found him the toughest, most sinister Orc of the series.

But you know, I would have voted for Azog if he was in the poll, just for the fact that he killed Thror.

[aragil]

All right, pulling out more of the stops here:

'Aye, we must stick together,' growled Ugluk. 'I don't trust you little swine. You've no guts outside your own sties. But for us you'd all have run away.'

Ugluk shouted, and a number of other orcs of nearly his own size ran up. Then suddenly, without warning, Ugluk sprang forwards, and with two swift strokes swept the heads off two of his opponents.
Good stuff. How did Grishnakh respond?

Grishnakh stepped aside and vanished into the shadows.
Ah, the bravery of Mordor. Does G the G really deserve this championship?

'Pick up those prisoners!' shouted Ugluk. 'Don't play any tricks with them! If they are not alive when we get back, someone else will die too.'
The best sort of threat, direct and to the point.

'We have ways of paying for tricks that you won't like, though they won't spoil your usefulness for the Master.'
Ah, Ugluk's branching out, trying his claw at some of those sinister threats. Not bad, not bad.

'Any trouble will be reported at the other end, and He'll know how to pay you. You'll get bed and breakfast all right: more than you can stomach.'
A nearly impossible threat, given that he's talking to Hobbits. Yet something in his voice makes you know he means it.

'"But what are we going to do at sunrise?" said some of the Northerners.
"Go on running," said Ugluk. "What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?"
"But we can't run in the sunlight."
"You'll run with me behind you," said Ugluk. "Runt! Or you'll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!"'
(Ammended to show more threats and insults)

"Make 'em both run! Just use the whip as a reminder. But that's not all," he snarled, turning to Pippin. "I shan't forget. Payment is only put off. Leg it!"
More of the sinister side. Truly, Ugluk is showing us the repetoire.

"If you're afraid of the Whiteskins, run! Run! There's the forest," he shouted, pointing ahead. "Get to it! It's your best hope. Off you go! And quick, before I knock a few more heads off, to put some sense into the others."
Classic Ugluk, unmistakable style. Threats that put the fear of Saruman into those that hear them.

And now a little negative campaigning:
He dropped the sword and shieked. There was a quick beat of hoofs, and even as Grishnakh leped up and rn, he was ridden down and a spear passed through him. He gave a hideous shivering cry and lay still.
Ah, final abandonment of the Hobbits, mixed liberally with shrieking and crying. We must ask ourselves, does Grishnakh really possess the dignity required to be pentathlete champion?

[Harad]

Come now. The desperation in Ugluk campaign is palpable. Like Ugluk himself he is trying to lead you to disaster across the fields of Rohan. Follow instead the "softer...but more evil" voice of Grishnakh the Great:


- That is a very interesting remark, - sneered a voice, softer than the others but more evil. - I may have to report that. The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered: those are my orders.
....
- Then you can wish again, - said the growling voice. - I am Uglúk. I command. I return to Isengard by the shortest road.
- Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye? - said the evil voice. - We should go back at once to Lugbúrz.

Do we want a brutish growling voice or a sinister evil voice to lead us?


- If we could cross the Great River, we might, - said another voice. - But there are not enough of us to venture down to the bridges.
- I came across, - said the evil voice. - A winged Nazgul awaits us northward on the east-bank.
- Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.


This is your Ugluk: choosing the path that brings the party of Orcs to disaster, misevaluating the situation, cravenly afraid of the Nazgul and rebels and brigands.


- You have spoken more than enough, Uglúk, - sneered the evil voice. - I wonder how they would like it in Lugbúrz. They might think that Uglúk's shoulders needed relieving of a swollen head. They might ask where his strange ideas came from. Did they come from Saruman, perhaps? Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree with me, with Grishnákh their trusted messenger; and I Grishnákh say this: Saruman is a fool. and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.
- Swine is it? How do you folk like being called swine by the muck-rakers of a dirty little wizard? It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant. Many loud yells in orc-speech answered him, and the ringing clash of weapons being drawn.

Grishnakh, an evil voice of reason, calling out in the wilderness, but no reply in the doors-open-but-no-lights-on eyes of Ugluk the Incompetent.

In the twilight he saw a large black Orc, probably Uglúk, standing facing Grishnákh, a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground.

No "large black"
Yes "very broad with arms that hung almost to the ground"

Thats what a proper Orc, a Champion Orc, is.

[aragil]

Originally posted by Harad
- If we could cross the Great River, we might, - said another voice. - But there are not enough of us to venture down to the bridges.
- I came across, - said the evil voice. - A winged Nazgul awaits us northward on the east-bank.
- Maybe, maybe! Then you'll fly off with our prisoners, and get all the pay and praise in Lugbúrz, and leave us to foot it as best we can through the Horse-country. No, we must stick together. These lands are dangerous: full of foul rebels and brigands.


These are not the words of Ugluk the Magnificent! These are the words of a cowardly Mountain Maggot! Ugluk responds to the craven council of Grishnakh with:

-Aye, we must stick together,' growled Ugluk. 'I don't trust you little swine. You've no guts outside your own sties. But for us you'd all have run away.'

Notice how Grishnakh seeks to avoid the integral Death March event, knowing that he can not match the physical prowess of Ugluk the Magnificent.
Grishnakh's campaign manager has sought to close your eyes with evil whispers hissed softly in your ears!
Originally posted by Harad
Its brutally clear that the Orc who deserves this honor is the Orc who best exemplifies Evil. Its an Orc that, had he been making the decisions at Parth Galen, would have taken the halflings straight across the Anduin and into Mordor to be flayed naked in the presence of the Big Red Eye.
To which I ask, why didn't Grishnakh make the decisions at Parth Galen?
Grishnakh stepped aside and vanished into the shadows.
A manouver he's sure to repeat every time things get ugly. Listen not to the evil whisperings in your ear! Instead, let the growling voice of Ugluk lead on! Do you wish to be led astray by the Ape of Lugburz?
Then you can wish again, - said the growling voice. - I am Uglúk. I command.

[Harad]

- I find it quite easy to believe, - said Merry. - But you haven't got your prey home yet. And it doesn't seem to be going your way, whatever happens. If we come to Isengard, it won't be the great Grishnákh that benefits

Even a curs-ed Halfing acknowledges that Grishnakh's plan is far superior despite the long odds against him (again no doing of his own.) As far as Grishnakh himself, Merry is not alone in calling him "great."

[Greenwood]

Greenwood has been out of town, but has now returned and must cast his vote for ....... Ugluk! Grishnakh gets himself skewered in the dark while abandoning his Mordor mates. If he had gotten away what would he have done? Another death march back across Rohan lugging a halfling under each arm? Not very bright. Ugluk stuck it out and though outnumbered held his Uruk-hai together, even leading a charge against the Riders of Rohan, almost succeeding in breaking through to the forest before going mano a mano (mano a orco ?) with Eomer the future king of Rohan before losing his head. Now there is an orc to look up to; a true orc among orcs. Not that slinker Grishnakh.

I suspect the vote tallying that has Grishnakh ahead is being done by the same judges that gave the ice dancing at the Olympics to the Russians. The whole tally is probably being audited by the Arthur Andersen auditing firm.

[Harad]

Its no surprise that the "Uruk-Hai" cabal would try to abscond with the True Champion's Ring.

[aragil]

What can I say? Our defense of the Uruk-hai undoubtedly springs from our recognition of special Magnificence in Ugluk.

[Greenwood]

Harad

Over on the Uruk-hai thread, ShagratU seems to be arguing for Ugluk and his boys making the run from the Fords of Isen to Parth Galen in about twelve hours. That really leaves Grishnakh in the dust. :)

[Harad]

Didnt the Death March thread conclude that it took A&L&G four days. Were they 36 hours behind the Orcs?

Plus, remember, Grishnakh was first with Ugluk, then went back East to recruit some lads, then caught up with Ugluk, and remained with him all the way to the outskirts of Fangorn. Grishnakh was the superior Death Marcher by any standards.

[aragil]

We ain't talking about the return trip. We're talking time to get to Parth Galen, which ShagratU is putting at sometime between the death of Theoden (approaching midnight of the 25th) and the breaking of the fellowship (battle started early on the 26th). This would of course crush the 2+ days it took for Grishnakh to catch up with Ugluk and co. And Ugluk wasn't exactly winded by the return Death March. He was clearly held up by the Mountain Maggots of Morrrria. Once Grishnakh finally does catch up with Ugluk, and Ugluk has gotten rid of the Mountain Maggots, Grishnakh's troop immediately falls behind. Too much energy spent on the catch-up, not enough left for the sprint to the finish line.
And, I hesitate to mention, Grishnakh seems to have taken a shorter route. I believe that Ugluk and co. followed the Entwash from just West of the Emyn Muil, meaning that they followed the river on it's Northward bend towards Fangorn. Grishnakh apparently started from just North of Sarn Gebir, and so was able to come straight West across Rohan, cutting off a wide loop of the Death March. We learn this from Aragorn as he analyzes the point where Grishnakh's troop meets up with that of Ugluk's. We may also remember how hesitant Grishnakh was to Death March in the first place. I'll admit, once he gets into Death Marching, he did pretty good. But he did it over a shorter distance, and he only did it one way. Too much Low Cunning, not enough Death Marching in my book.

[Harad]

Of course all things in the Pentathlon are scored equally. If you have a Numb Skull you will Death March in a great loop instead of taking a cuning short cut to home sweet orcpit.

And how does ShagratU time Ugluk's leaving Isengard? Fascinating. Please provide an exact reference or I will never be found again (hey! stop that applauding!) if I once venture in U-v. U-H.

[Greenwood]

Originally posted by Harad
And how does ShagratU time Ugluk's leaving Isengard? Fascinating. Please provide an exact reference or I will never be found again (hey! stop that applauding!) if I once venture in U-v. U-H.

In the account of the battles at the fords of Isen in Unfinished Tales, a bunch of orcs disappear during the night after Theodred's death. ShagratU says these are Ugluk and crew heading off to waylay the Fellowship at Parth Galen. Given that Theodred fell on February 25 and the Fellowship is attacked on February 26 this gives Ugluk the Magnificent and his boys about twelve hours for the dash from the fords to Parth Galen. Much as I support Ugluk in his bid for pentathelete glory I don't buy this one.

[Mormegil]

As it stands, Grishnakh is 4 votes ahead of Ugluk.
I say it is time to declare a worthy winner, Grishnakh The Great!

[Snaga]

Originally posted by Greenwood


In the account of the battles at the fords of Isen in Unfinished Tales, a bunch of orcs disappear during the night after Theodred's death. ShagratU says these are Ugluk and crew heading off to waylay the Fellowship at Parth Galen. Given that Theodred fell on February 25 and the Fellowship is attacked on February 26 this gives Ugluk the Magnificent and his boys about twelve hours for the dash from the fords to Parth Galen. Much as I support Ugluk in his bid for pentathelete glory I don't buy this one. No nor do I. More likely to be Mauhar and his boys going to the forest.

[Harad]

ROLFLMAO

This is the best one ever! Please stop me from getting on the Uv.U-H and arguing. Please please please.

From my glorious first-edition UT color fold-out map I measure the distance from the Fords of Isen to Parth Galen as 425 miles.

To do this in 12 hours, Ugluk and his lads would be AVERAGING 35.4 mph. No wonder they werent worried about the Horseboys catching them. They could outrun the horses both in speed and endurance.

Hail great linguistic researchers!

[aragil]

35.4 mph? Well, if that doesn't bring in the votes for Ugluk, nothing will.

[Harad]

The second of those choices.

Next poll will be Ugluk vs. a Toyota Corolla.

[Greenwood]

Next poll will be Ugluk vs. a Toyota Corolla.

Better make it Ugluk vs. a HumVee. Remember it is all off-road.:)

[7doubles]

what abought Azog? he cut off Thrain's head or the golin king; these orcs such as gorbash or ugluk do no carry much merrit.

[7doubles]

goblin king

[Harad]

Azog would have quailed at the Nazgul company that Grishnakh kept. It is too laugh, harshly.

As far as Ugluk v. Toyota Corolla or Humvee, since both vehicles have computerized controls, both would have beaten Ugluk in the "low cunning" category as well.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Harad
Azog would have quailed at the Nazgul company that Grishnakh kept. It is too laugh, harshly.

As far as Ugluk v. Toyota Corolla or Humvee, since both vehicles have computerized controls, both would have beaten Ugluk in the "low cunning" category as well.



I feel that azog was more powerful then grishnakh.

[Snaga]

I feel that azog was more powerful then grishnakh. What snivelling maggot are you that we should listen? Strongbow, but weakbrain. Pah! Azog who scarcely set foot outside his foul caves for fear of the beardlings on his doorstep. Such great leadership indeed! All his people were destroyed. The miserable goon. Both him and his worthless son Bolg, who between them dwindled the strength of the orcs of the Misty Mountains, if they'd been in Mordor would never have got beyond cleaning out the warg kennels. And you choose them!

And as that Magnificent Champion of Isengard stated: 'You (snaga) and the other scouts should all have your ears cut off!' If you wish to bandy words with me, Aragil Tark-filth, can't your festering brain think of any of its own? The Isenscum may have said that, but what did he do about it? Nothing. The empty words of a wizardlings half-wit apprentice. No the scouts had warned him that the dirty horse-boys were on the prowl. What does he do? Ignores their information and heads his lads to the slaughter, and lets the prisoners escape.

Greenwood has been out of town, but has now returned and must cast his vote for ....... Ugluk! Grishnakh gets himself skewered in the dark while abandoning his Mordor mates. If he had gotten away what would he have done? Another death march back across Rohan lugging a halfling under each arm? Not very bright. Ugluk stuck it out and though outnumbered held his Uruk-hai together, even leading a charge against the Riders of Rohan, almost succeeding in breaking through to the forest before going mano a mano (mano a orco ?) with Eomer the future king of Rohan before losing his head. Now there is an orc to look up to; a true orc among orcs. Not that slinker Grishnakh.

So my fine leafy friend, you have been out of town. You should stayed far away unless you got stomach for a battle. Your snivelling Isengard traitor was too busy to remember his orders. O so brave to fight the horse-filth. But while his snotty nose was being wiped on the grass by the prince of the strawheads, Grishnakh had the wits to try to escape with the prisoners. If Grishnakh had been in charge the precious halflings would have been enjoying bed and breakfast in Lugburz, and the war would have been won. Who did those Isengarders think they were trying to rival the Great Eye? Ugluk-glob ishi Uruk-hai baguthwit skai!

[7doubles]

who do you kiss with that mouth? Shelob....!

[Harad]

All hail snaga1, tracker extraordinary! You and Grishnakh could and would have destroyed Middle Earth, if given half a chance. If only all the ranks of Evil could have lived up to your standards! Let us laugh together, harshly.

[aragil]

I've just uncovered a brilliant passage which displays Ugluks insult ability as well as his tactical cunning:

TT. p. 72 'Curse you! you're as bad as the other rabble: the maggots and the apes of Lugburz. No good trying to charge with them. They'd just squeal and bolt, and there are more than enough of these filthy horse-boys to mop up our lot on the flat.'

Of course, the only ape of Lugburz dim enough to try squeeling and bolting turns out to be Grishakh, who manages to bolt, then confusingly shrieks instead of squeals, and then is mopped up by a filthy horse-boy. He should have listened to wise Uncle Ugluk. I suggest that you non-commited voters out there also listen: Vote for Ugluk, he needs you to stop others from squealing and bolting as the late Grishnakh the Great did!

[Snaga]

Yes but I'm afraid the fair-spoken Snaga1 has a point Aragil. It was the great leadership of Ugluk that got them all killed in the first place.

If Grishnakh had prevailed, he could have got M&P to Mordor. Then Sauron would have gently persuaded them (with Grishnakh ably assisting) to spill the beans on Frodo and Sam. Hence Frodo is caught, Sauron gets the ring and its checkmate, game over player one.

[Greenwood]

If Grishnakh had prevailed, he could have got M&P to Mordor. Then Sauron would have gently persuaded them (with Grishnakh ably assisting) to spill the beans on Frodo and Sam. Hence Frodo is caught, Sauron gets the ring and its checkmate, game over player one.

Variag of Khand

Ah, but Ugluk was not interested in Sauron (or Grishnakh) winning. Ugluk worked for the White Hand, Saruman. Grishnakh's conniving and attempted sneaking off with Merry and Pippin not only results in his own shreiking death via being skewered, it results in the escape of Merry and Pippin who then rouse the Ents who destroy Isengard and save Rohan. Without that result Saruman would have destroyed Rohan and Aragorn, the future King of Gondor would have died at Helm's Deep. Without the Rohan cavalry and Aragorn sailing to the rescue, Minas Tirith would have fallen to the head Nazgul. Grishnakh's cowardly sneaking off lead to Sauron loosing the battle of Pelennor Fields and the loss of his chief Nazgul. Even with a Sauron victory at Minas Tirith, Frodo's destruction of the Ring at Orodruin results in Sauron's destruction leaving Saruman (Ugluk's boss) top dog in Middle Earth! With the destruction of the Ring, the three elven rings worn by Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrond lose their power, another win for Saruman. Ugluk the far-sighted, even in heroic death would have made Middle-earth safe for Saruman and his fellow Uruk-hai. If Grishnakh had not slinked off with Merry and Pippin, the great Ugluk might have used them as "hobbit shields" in his battle with Eomer's riders. He might have held out until Saruman appeared to deal with that upstart horse-kid Eomer. Even if this didn't work, Ugluk never would have allowed Merry and Pippin to be rescued alive.

Come on you undecided voters, don't let that sniveling Mordor rat Grishnakh steal the gold from Ugluk the Mighty.

[Harad]

This is revisionist history at its worst. One can't blame the pea-Brained Ugluk for his misguided loyalty to his Wittle Lizard, Saruman. One has to admit that Saruman's attempt at Middle Earth domination was a pale imitiation of the Big Guy's. Ugluk unfortunately abandonned his Evil roots, something that Grishnakh never did. Grishnakh's voice itself it constantly described as "Evil" while Ugluk's is only "deep." And think of the delicious irony that JRRT employs describing "deep" someone like Ugluk, who can barely remember to breath in, after breathing out.

Since Ugluk's "plan" was to smash his and his troops heads against the Horseboys spears, Grishnakh wisely, and Evilly, stole the Hobbits and but for one clink of his Orcly sword, would have hied himself to Mordor, one Hobbit in each paw, to the advancement of True Evil, not its weak sister.

[Snaga]

But Greenwood you forget. Ugluk and co leave the hobbits unguarded while they worry about how they can escape without being speared by Eomer and co. Why did he do that? Because Ugluk can't hold two thoughts in his head simultaneously. So therefore Grishnakh was able to get to them in the first place. Using M&P as a 'hobbit-shield' is the sort of low cunning that never entered Ugluk's over-burdened head.

Of course in point of fact it is unlikely to have worked. For a number of reasons. The men of Rohan are aware of hobbits only as a vague myth from the north. They are hardly likely to realise that they must let orcs escape in order to protect them. And secondly, M&P had their elven cloaks on so they would be all but invisible. The 'invisible mythical creature shield' doesn't seem as workable does it?

What would have happened without Grishnakh's attempt to rescue something from the situation? Well Ugluk has forgotten about them, and that after guarding them so poorly that Pippin has effectively got his hands free, and both the captives have their cloaks. Chances are they would have got themselves free anyway, still headed for Fangorn, with exactly the same result.

[Greenwood]

Grishnakh wisely, and Evilly, stole the Hobbits and but for one clink of his Orcly sword, would have hied himself to Mordor, one Hobbit in each paw, to the advancement of True Evil, not its weak sister.

Another marathon dash across the open fields of Rohan, this time with a hobbit under each arm and no one to guard them when Grishnakh slept? It doesn't even rise to the level of "pea-brained"! :)

Variag of Khand

Ah, but Pippin never would have been able to cut his hands free if Grishnakh hadn't started trouble earlier, resulting in one of his lads being killed by Ugluk and hsi boys while the craven Grishnakh went off whining to his over-rated Nazgul. :)

Ugluk should have his points in the pentathlete competition multiplied by a difficulty factor because he had to compete while be handicapped by the "rabble" from the Mountains and the Mordor "maggots". I am considering filing a grievance on Ugluk's behalf with ME-ORC. :D

[ME-ORC = Middle-earth Olympics Rules Committee]

[Harad]

Another marathon dash across the open fields of Rohan, this time with a hobbit under each arm and no one to guard them when Grishnakh slept?

Aha! Now you are in Grishnakh's wheelhouse. He is acknowledged to be the best DeathMarcher, doing 2 steps to every one of Ugluk-the-Corolla. Grishnakh also learned how to tie reliable knots in Lugburz Orcficer's Training School.

[aragil]

I dispute Grishnakh's ability as a Death Marcher. Grishnakh cheated on the forward journey, relying on Nazgul-ferrying and a shorter route in order to catch Ugluk. While this might help his Low Cunning score, I think that the judges would have to dock him points from the Death Marching portion of his routine. Once he and his lads do catch up to Ugluk, they immediately begin falling into the rear. Grishnakh's short crooked legs would never have made the return journey across Rohan- he would have been skewered by the Horse-Boys many times over (shrieking all the time, doubtlessly).

[Greenwood]

Instead of a Left! Right! Left! Right! marching cadence, it would have been Skewer! Shriek! Skewer! Shriek! :)

[Harad]

Maybe Grishnakh's strategy of avoiding the enemy would have worked better than Ugluk's "strategy" of attacking their swords with his neck. Crook-legs are excellent for stealth btw.

[aragil]

I'm afraid that Grishnakh's strategy of avoision was all too often compromised by his habit of skewering himself on horse-boy spears. And shrieking.

[Harad]

Grishnakh had to make the best of a SNAFU-ed situation, compliments of Ugluk-the-Size-1-Brain-in-a-Size-9-Skull. At least Grishnakh was trying to escape. His shriek was a badge of honor compared with the dull thud as Ugluk's head was lopped off.

Now if only Grishnakh had the backup earlier that he deserved. No pointless march across Rohan, no unmarked bonfire for the lads. Instead feasting and fun at Lugburz whilst the Prisoners beg to tell all they know and more.

[aragil]

The problem here is that Grishnakh had every opportunity to get the Hobbits to Mordor. If he had been able to face up to Ugluk in the first place, then the whole troop would have been off Eastwards to Mordor. But when push came to shove, Grishnakh ran away from confrontation and had to ask the Nazgul for help. Ugluk was his own Orcs.
1) Grishnakh cheated in the Death March, Ugluk took the longer route and still was traveling faster when Grishnakh ran across them.
2) Ugluk made Threats and followed them up with lopping off heads. Grishnakh made Threats and then ran for it.
3) Ugluk was not a brilliant Insulter, but he was proficient with statements about the 'mountain maggots', 'filthy horse-boys', and the 'apes of Lugburz'. Grishnakh was so often bested physically that he had much more practice at spinning off insults. Yet it seems to me that for all his practice, Grishnakh did not come up with anything brilliant either.
4) Ugluk is a run-away victor in the Brute Strength category, lopping off heads of mounted horse-boys and Orcs alike. Grishnakh apparently tried to use his 'terrifying strength' to wrench a spear out of a horse-boy's hand after having been skewered with it.
5) Low Cunning was never Ugluk's greatest asset, yet he does very well in leadership and tactical decision-making. He is able to hold a heterogenous mixture of Orcs together with a minimum of bloodshed, a feat which is beyond all the scheming of Grishnakh. He is also able to make the best of a bad situation- holding a small band together during the morning route and nearly fighting his way out of the Rohirrim. After all, he was only being stopped by the personal heroism of the King of Rohan. In comparison Grishnakh's plan is undone by his own action- foolishly drawing his sword in the presence of a horseman. Finally, I notice that the Hobbits were not quite able to play with Ugluk's head, like they were with Grishnakh. When dealing with the halflings Ugluk seemed cool and collected, Grishnakh seemed to be trembling.
Clearly Ugluk is the leader in categories 1, 2, and 4. In categories 3 and 5 Ugluk is competitive. The Pentathlon considers all 5 categories equally, so I must say that Ugluk appears to be the best pentorclete.

[Harad]

Originally posted by aragil

1) Grishnakh cheated in the Death March, Ugluk took the longer route

Can there be any clearer endorsement of Grishnakh! He cheated! Bonus points!

2) Ugluk made Threats and followed them up with lopping off heads. Grishnakh made Threats and then ran for it.

Threats are easy to make when backed up by a troop of lads. Grishnakh made threats a capella . A win.

3) Ugluk was not a brilliant Insulter,

Ugluk would have to pool the entire brain power of his Isengard trash, and still couldnt match Grishnakh's "Swollen Head" jibe. Clear win!


4) Ugluk is a run-away victor in the Brute Strength category, lopping off heads of mounted horse-boys and Orcs alike.

Grishnakh concedes that for brute strength without reason, Ugluk is your Orc. Even stronger than Ugluk and equally intelligent would be a falling rock.


5) Low Cunning was never Ugluk's greatest asset,

Hmmmm...no argument here.

Grishnakh was both a doer and a thinker, low cunning, his specialty. Meetings with the Nazgul and Sauron would find a sober and reflective Grishnakh in a business suit with a briefcase full of position papers. Then, after spitballing with the bosses, he would change back into his Red Eye duds, go back into the field and mix it up with the Lads. An Orc-for-all-Reasons, your Pentathlete Champion, Grishnakh.

[aragil]

Originally posted by Harad
Grishnakh was both a doer and a thinker, low cunning, his specialty. Meetings with the Nazgul and Sauron would find a sober and reflective Grishnakh in a business suit with a briefcase full of position papers.

Strange that Grishnakh could deal so calmly with the Nazgul, and then be so put out by simple Hobbits. I think that if the Hobbits could play with Grishnakh's head, then the Nazgul were really wacking him out. This is reinforced by how he seems to remember meetings with the Nazgul as painful. I think that the likely scenario is that Grishnakh was wetting his orc-mail while speaking to the Nazgul, and then getting some sort of sick thrill out of the encounter. As so often happens in campaigning, Grishnakh is not turning out to be the way you've portrayed him. He's terrified by the Nazgul, and is likely looking to get the ring for himself in preparation for payback (not looking to get the ring for Sauron to further the cause of evil). The ME-ORC folk don't look kindly on this sort of behavior, nor do I think that they'll give bonus-points to cheaters.
Ugluk, in contrast, really is just as cool and collect as I have always maintained. He gently reprimands wayward Orcs with the sharp end of his sword, much as a wise father will reproach a child who has misbehaved. He is level-headed in the heat of battle, and his leadership is an inspiration to the Uruk-hai who serve him. He has 'cunningly' arranged for Mauhar to meet with the Rohirrim, unfortunately the moment is ruined by Grishnakh. Yes, there is more than one way to exhibit cunning. There is the scheming of Grishnakh the Kinky, and then there is the noble cunning and tactical intelligence of Ugluk the Magnificent, second on our current ballot, but forever first in our hearts.

[Harad]

Nazgul, Nazgul, - said Grishnákh, shivering and licking his lips, as if the word had a foul taste that he savoured painfully. - You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Uglúk, - he said. - Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! - he snarled fiercely. - You ought to know that theyre the apple of the Great Eye. But the winged Nazgul: not yet,not yet. He won't let them show themselves across the Great River yet, not too soon. Theyre for the War-and other purposes.

Grishnakh knows Evil. Grishnakh knows pain. Grishnakh savors foul tastes. On the other side:

I Grishnákh say this: Saruman is a fool. and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.

Trouble speaking with Halflings? Here's trouble:

My dear tender little fools, - hissed Grishnákh, - everything you have, and everything you know, will be got out of you in due time: everything! You'll wish there was more that you could tell to satisfy the Questioner, indeed you will: quite soon. We shan't hurry the enquiry.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Harad



Yeah grisknak whatever new a lot about the big things maybe he was ranked?

[Harad]

Grishnakh was 10th in line for the Throne of Evil. After Sauron, the Nine, then you-know-who.

[Snaga]

Maybe 11th after 'the Mouth'??

[aragil]

Ahh, excellent. I see that with that last vote for Shagrat team Shagrat and Ugluk have at last cought back up to the total of that crook-legged shrieker Grishnakh. Death Marching and Brutishness over Cunning, that is what made Orcs great!

[Harad]

Shagrat is an Mordor Orc. Grishnakh is a Mordor Orc. Together they laugh, harshly, at Orc's of the Wittle Lizard.

[Eonwe]

Hate to jump into this political debate (but as usual I will), but I agree with Harad, re: Shagrat would not team up with Ugluk. Shagrat is like Grish, anorcoftheeye.

Let me introduce myself, the campaign manager for Shagrat. Shagrat is running on the dungybrown party ticket, and expects to force the Grishnak party to make concessions in order to win one for Mordor. Without the great Shagrat, limp-armed champion, who more so than Grish or Ugluk, fought in a dirty way, so dirty and filthy, only Sam could provide us our campaign slogan "Curse the filth!", without him, hairy armed Grish with the yellow teeth can't win!

With a simple knife wetted by Shag's spit, and a horrible squeeze move that made Radbug look like a bad child's playdoe experiment, Shagrat hopes to come from behind, or force the ticket of Grish to give in to its demands. You'll vote for Shagrat or you'll have a belly full of maggot-holes!

Only Shagrat, captain of the Orcs of the tower, true to the Eye! ran straight to Barad-dur and delivered the goods just like the orders. If Sam hadn't been in the tower, and Gorbag hadn't been the filthy rebel he was, Frodo would have been a nice package for Lugburz too. He finished off Gorbag with a stomp and trample that rivaled Bombadil.

Vote for Shagrat if it ain't too late!

[Harad]

Shagrat of course being an Orc of Mordor is more deserving than that rebel scum Ugluk. And in the Grishnakh regime, Shagrat will be given nudgenudgewinkwink flesh.

But even shirley knows that Shagrat was inferior to Grishnakh. Shagrat was left guarding an empty tower while Grishnakh was out in the fields serving his Eye and country. Shagrat could not even handle one Halfing, while Grishnakh had one in each paw.

Give Shagrat his due. Give Ugluk your scorn.

But for Pentathlete Champion, Give Grishnakh your vote!

[aragil]

Slowly but slowly the gap closes, as Grishnakh's campaign promises of 'The Lowliest Cunning' and 'nudgenudgewinkwink flesh for all' turn out to be so much empty shrieking in the ears of the voters. The electorate can feel the need for another candidate. A candidate who will lead them in a Death March across the open fields of Rohan in the bright light of the sun; who will Threaten them with the prospect of a head removed from shoulders; who will Insultingly call them the maggots and apes of Lugburz yet still show them that he cares; who will Brutishly display his strength on the uncommited voters; and finally a candidate cunning enough to not let Hobbits play with his mind. Truly, the voters desire a Magnificent candidate.

Take heart, for there is one Orc who fits the bill: The Condottiere of Nan Curunir, the Meatpacker from the slopes of Methadras, the Hannibal of the Uruk-hai- Ugluk the Magnificent!

[Harad]

I've heard of the Endless Campaign. I've heard of protests. I've even heard of 5-4 Supreme Orc Decisions. But its time to prepare for the next Games. Is Ugluk going to add "Sore-Loser" to "Rebel-Scum" and "Swollen-Head"?

They felt the Orc's arms trembling violently. 'Curse you, you filthy little vermin!' he hissed. 'Untie your legs? I'll untie every string in your bodies. Do you think I can't search you to the bones? Search you! I'll cut you both to quivering shreds. I don't need the help of your legs to get you away-and have you all to myself!'
Suddenly he seized them. The strength in his long arms and shoulders was terrifying

The efficiency of Grishnakh is just stunning. This short passage highlights his insults, threats, and brute strength. Remarkable.

[aragil]

Why were Grishnakh's arms trembling. It appears that the Hobbits have gotten in to his head, and he lacks the cunning to get them back out.
And, I might ask, is Grishnakh going to add cries of 'foul' to his already long list of shrill shriekings?
Honestly people, you know Ugluk the Magnificent is superior. All I ask is for six more votes. If any of you have learned the error of your ways, I could always find out if the Webmaster will allow you to change your vote. Also, I'm looking in to what is to be done with the myriad dimpled chad votes which have not yet been posted. I think that the 'poster intent' of those voting for Gorbag was quite clearly to vote for Ugluk. I'll stretch this thing out until inauguration day, if I have to.

[Snaga]

If Ugluk wishes to ally with Gorbag, then that is his right. I'd like to point out that as Shagrat was Gorbag's mortal enemy, that will just go to confirm Shagrat as Grishnakh's running mate (or should that be Death Marching mate?). Grishnakh's position is therefore unassailable.

[aragil]

The Magnificence for Office Alliance does not look to add Gorbag to the ticket! He is far to schemy and mutinous, like a certain long-armed crook-legged creature I know of. I was just reiterating the fact that the two lost souls who voted for Gorbag were mistaken, and probably had intended to vote for Ugluk. As I said before, some of these Web Browsers display the ballot in a confusing manner, so that the dot for Gorbag is very close to the name of Ugluk. If I'm any judge of cyber-voter intent (and I'm not), I'd say that the Gorbag voters were definitely trying to vote for Ugluk but were confused by the balloting system. Need I remind everybody that the ballot was put together in this confusing manner by a Scheming Grishnakh man?
Remember folks, the polls aren't closed yet. The later time zones in the West have always been Isengard-friendly, and Isengard needs your support now more than ever. Keep the Apes of Lugburz away from the Laurels! 6 more votes for Ugluk the magnificent!

[Harad]

Let consider Low Cunning for a moment:

Ugluk is ordered to return with a Halfing. Ugluks response: Death March in straight line until killed by Horse Boys.

Grishnakh is ordered to return with a Halfling. First he tries to convince Ugluk the Intelligence-Challenged that his plan will lead to disaster.

Not getting too far thru the thick bone layer surrounding Ugluk's pea-brain, he ON HIS OWN INTIATIVE, returns to get reinforcements. He arrives back at the party and gives Mr. SAT another chance to deviate from his disastrous "plan."

Finally, ON HIS OWN INTIATIVE, he grabs the halflings, one in each powerful paw, and legs it away.

Can you imaginge using the phrase "ON HIS OWN INTIATIVE" when speaking about Ugluk. It is to laugh--harshly, of course.

[aragil]

Shirley you are not deriding the Death March. It is a staple of the pentorclon. Orcs are encouraged to do such an event at every opportunity, starting from very early on in life. Laud Low Cunning all you want, but please give Death Marching it's due.

[Harad]

Both Shirley and I consider "Death Marching" to be one of the sacred 5 pillars of the Penathlon, no less in stature than "Low Cunning," "Insults", "Threats," and "Brute Strength." Hence the Orc Pentathlete Champion, Grishnakh the Great, is MIddle-Earth Class in all these Orcly pursuits.

[Mormegil]

Wouldn't that be Arda-class?:D :D

[aragil]

And yet another vote for Ugluk. Grishnakh may be good at Brute Strength and Death Marching, but he is far inferior to Ugluk the Magnificent, who was twice runner-up to Schwarzenegger in the Mr. Ea competition. Still too early to declare a Pentorclete champion, in my books.

[Harad]

Another appeal to all who love Grishnakh, the real Orc, is in order.

Remember Ugluk's brave charge at the Horse Boys. Is that Orc behavior? Not on your life! Orcs are not stinkin heros. They are Orcs: low cunning, betrayal, run-away--those are the traits the Orc Pentathlon cherishes.

So stab Ugluk in the back and vote for Grishnakh!
Grrrrrrrrzzzzzzzzek!

[aragil]

Ah, a deviously (and Lowly) Cunning argument. Adopting a slogan that even the Uglukiest Orc will espouse: Ugluk the Magnificent is Brave. So hard to argue with. I'll just remind the voters which Orc they'd rather have accepting the laurels: The one thinking about stabbing them in the back later, or the one too proud to pay them a second thought. The truest pillar of Orcish thought: if it's bigger and stronger than you, respect it. That is all Ugluk asks.

[Khamul]

How about Goblins? Azog? He killed Thror. But he still was killed by Dain Ironfoot.....O well nevermind

I know Azog was a Uruk, I was nominating him, And I wanted to know if there was a poll about Goblins too

[aragil]

Azog was a Uruk, same as Shagrat, Gorbag, and Grishnakh. I think this can be demonstrated by looking at the tale of years, seeing when Uruks first arise (TA 2475), when Sauron begins to populate Moria with his Orcs (~TA 2480), and where Azog is found (Moria, ~TA 2750).
Azog was already ranked by VofK: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=50174#post50174
As you can see, he did better than the Snaga but worse than Grishnakh or Ugluk.

And now that there has been new information uncovered, I think it's time to recalculate this (I'm demanding a recount):
originally posted by Harad the White
--------------------Ugluk--------Grishnakh

Death Marching-------------10---------10
Insults---------------------8----------9
Threats--------------------10----------8
Brute Strength-------------10----------8
Low Cunning-----------------6---------10

Total----------------------44---------45

As we now know, Grishnakh cheated in the Death March, so I move that Grishnakh's Death Marching score be reduced accordingly, making Ugluk the leader by scoring, if not by actual voting.

[aragil]

Eight months have passed since this legendary pentathlon began. As we are nearing the realization of the event on screen, I think it is only fair that the newer members of our forum get the opportunity to voice their opinion on such an important matter.
Also, as the campaign manager for Mr. Grishnakh (shrieker) is regrettably unable to state his case, I will keep my own campaigning on behalf of Ugluk (the magnificent) to a (sublinibababable) minimum.

[Lindir]

Hm, I can't even remember which one I voted for.

[Snaga]

I will be the campaign manager for the legendary Grishnakh. This was the first thread I posted in.

Grishnakh is the clear winner. Ugluk shouldnt even be allowed in, as he is not even a proper orc. Miserable wizardling-spawn... pah!

[Wonko The Sane]

I voted for Grishnakh as well.

Shagrats a simpering puppy and a wimp and all-in-all lame, Ugluk isn't even a proper Orc as Snaga states, and Gorbag doesn't even deserve to be on the poll!!

Besides, Grishnakh just kicks @$$. My brother and I used to fight about this. He wanted Ugluk and he'd scream "URUK-HAI!" and I wanted Grishnakh and I'd scream, "YRCH!" Hehe. Even just last night at the dinner table he put his arms in the air and said, "Yrch!!" and I did the same.
Quite fun...anyway.

[aragil]

Wonks, I can't believe what I'm reading. Just precisely whose @$$ does Grishnakh kick? Certainly not Ugluk's. Grishnakh runs away from Ugluk at every available opportunity. In what way is turning tail considered to be kicking @$$??? Of the four Orcs on the poll, Grishnakh alone stands out as the only one with no confirmed kills. Ugluk, on the other hand, kills not only Orcs (hey, who can't), but also MOUNTED KNIGHTS OF ROHAN. Even Harad conceded that Ugluk kicks the most butt.

[Wonko The Sane]

Ugluk's pants...

Maybe I'm just a fan of the Mordor Orcs, but I like Grishnakh better! :mad:

[aragil]

Even a fan of Mordor Orcs has a better candidate than Grishnakh to look up to. I'll just remind everybody that at one point there w ere ~200 Orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. A day after the arrival of Frodo's Mithril shirt there was one orc left alive, clenching the coat in his remaining claw. That Orc? Shagrat. Grishnakh would have been hoofing it off to Lugburz in order to clean his soiled breaks the moment things got ugly. Of course, as good as Shagrat was I think it's pretty apparent that Ugluk would have come out of the scuffle with a couple more lads, and probably would have taken care of Sam in short order. Ah well, not every Orc is born Magnificent, and Shagrat is still pretty admirable, if Apes of Lugburz are more you're speed.

[Wonko The Sane]

Shagrat, good?!? Are you kidding?
He was a wimp and a coward! He deserves NO votes!!!

*draws her bow and arrow* Don't MAKE me slay you!

[aragil]

WtS, what is the basis for saying that Shagrat was a wimp and a coward? Here's some quotes I'm happy to provide that show how Grishnnakh and Shagrat deal with challenges to their authority. You tell me who looks like a wimp:

Shagrat: "Come here and I'll squeeze your eyes out, like I did to Radbug just now. And when some new lads come, I'll deal with you: I'll send you to Shelob."

Grishnakh: Grishnakh stepped aside and vanished into the shadows.

[Wonko The Sane]

You can pick any two quotes to make it SEEM like you're right but you're not!

I don't have my book with me! But I'll get it and I'll show you!!!

*runs off to get her book*

[aragil]

Any 2 quotes? There aren't a lot of relevant quotes, but the facts is the facts:

Number of times Grishnakh confronts Ugluk openly: 1
Number of times said confrontations end with Grishnakh running away: 1
Number of other times in the books Grishnakh runs away: 2
Number of times Grishnakh is described as shrieking: 1
Number of times in the books Grishnakh sticks around for a fight: 0
Number of confirmed kills for Grishnakh: 0

On the other hand we have Shagrat
Number of times Shagrat is confronted with combat: 2
Number of times Shagrat runs away: 1
Number of confirmed kills for Shagrat after he is injured: 2

And finally, Ugluk:
Number of times Ugluk is confronted with Combat: 4
Number of times Ugluk runs away: 0
Number of Orcs Ugluk kills: 1+
Number of Humans Ugluk and his boys Kill: Boromir + several Rohan knights
Number of Humans killed by the other three Pentorclon candidates combined: 0

[Snaga]

Ah yes the brave and wise Ugluk. Pah!

Lets just check our facts...

Number of times Ugluk confronts Grishnakh on his own... 0
Number of times Ugluk confronts Grishnakh when backed up with 100 or so scum from Isengard... 1

Number of times Grishnakh wisely retreats when faced by overwhelming odds....1
Number of times Ugluk runs straight into trouble knowing that the Riders of Rohan are around ... 1
Number of times Grishnakh suggests a route that would have got them out of trouble.... I've lost count
Number of orcs that dies cos of Ugluks stupidity... >200

The fact is that Ugluk is completely incompetent and gets them all killed. Grishnakh tries his level best to retrieve the situation, even to the point of far out-running the wimpy Uruk-Hai, goes to get back up cos he can see they are gonna get slaughtered, tries to save the prisoners.

On another point... the Mordor orcs were battle-hardened proper orcs, well used to butt-kicking the tarks along the length of Anduin. The uruk-hai were hiding away in Isengard, and until that month had fought noone. While the Battle of the Fords of Isen raged, Saruman sent Ugluk far away, presumably in the hope that he wouldn't bring his dreaded 'leadership qualities' to the battlefield.

Number of battles won by Saruman with Ugluk present: 0
Number of battles won by Saruman without Ugluk present: 1

[Ithrynluin]

I vote for Ugluk. He's the coolest one and he could take those other orcs any day.:D

[Wonko The Sane]

I forgot my book AGAIN! I had a great quote for supporting Grishnakh!

Here's the thing, whoever it was that listed quotes comparing Shagrat to Grishnakh earlier manipulated the quotes picking Shagrat's meanest epithet and Grishnakh's tamest mention!
Ok, here's why Grishnakh's better IMO. Ugluk was this tool of Saruman, and to me that likens him to Saruman's position. Saruman was definitely evil, but he was a wimpy evil. He really didn't serve his Dark Lord properly! He was power-hungry and selfish.
Granted Sauron was probably both as well, but he was sooo bad-@$$ that it's alright for him to be! He kind of has a right! But Saruman was weak and foolish, and Ugluk embodies those same qualities.
Granted I usually root for the side of good, but I don't really have a problem with you fighting for evil as long as you do it properly! Saruman and Ugluk alike were NOT loyal to the cause of evil they were serving.
It was like they forgot who it was they were supposed to be following!
(Sauron of course.)
But Grishnakh was certainly loyal to his Dark Lord. I don't think he took Merry and Pippin from the other orcs in order to gain the ring for himself, but rather since he took them after Merry (or was it Pippin) claimed that if they were to take them to Saruman that Saruman would only take the ring for himself and then Sauron would never get it I believe he was trying to protect his master's interest in the matter.
I honestly don't think he wanted the ring for himself, I don't think he had it in him to think big enough to see himself as the leader of the world...
But still, he was pretty nasty! And yeah...he's bad-@$$. Certainly the most rational of the orcs and I think that's why I like him the most. Just because he was always the voice of reason, and he didn't lose sight of his duty to his master.
That's admirable, even if his master is some kind of disembodied eye that wants to enslave the free world. ;)

[aragil]

Bless your little Orcish heart, Ithrynluin.

WtS- I'm not sure that Harad would want you on the Grishnakh campaign team. I don't think he had it in him to think big enough to see himself as the leader of the world... sort of detracts from Grishnakh's strength in low cunning. Loyalty is certainly not Grishnakh's strong suit either- he ran away rather than trying to lead the Moria Runts against the (obviously superior) Uruk-hai.
Ugluk was loyal to Saruman, Saruman was not loyal to Sauron. Why do you seek to penalize Ugluk for his master's choice. And why would we prefer a lackey Saruman to one strong enough to show his own preferences? Saruman and Ugluk were never 'supposed to be following' Sauron- they were their own branch of evil.

snaga1- what evidence is there that the outcome would have been different if Ugluk had 100 Orcs at his back or none? As we've pointed out before on this thread, Grishnakh did not outrun Ugluk on the plains. He used the Nazgul to fly him closer to the endpoint, and then ran a shorter race (without the handicap of the Moria Maggots to slow him up). And what exactly does Grishnakh accomplish when he catches Ugluk? Well, first off, in spite of the fact that there are now 40 Mordor Uruks and 100+ Moria Maggots, Grishnakh does not even dream of challenging Ugluk and his 80 Uruk-hai. Why, my guess is because 80 Uruk-hai vs. any 140 other Orcs is a mismatch- in favor of the Uruk-hai. Following this Grishnakh only manages one thing- he becomes directly responsible for the Hobbits escape. As Greenwood earlier pointed out, this little show of competence is directly responsible for Sauron's defeat at Minas Tirith, which in turn was responsible for Sauron letting his guard down in Mordor which allowed Frodo and Sam to destroy the Ring. Before we start digging for Elves in Ugluk's closet, we should remember what's hiding in Grishnakh's!

[aragil]

The Orc Pentathlon has but one master. Only one may bend it to his will, and he does not share laurels.

Thus speaketh Gandalf. No ties permitted here- glory or bust!

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by aragil
Bless your little Orcish heart, Ithrynluin.

WtS- I'm not sure that Harad would want you on the Grishnakh campaign team. sort of detracts from Grishnakh's strength in low cunning. Loyalty is certainly not Grishnakh's strong suit either- he ran away rather than trying to lead the Moria Runts against the (obviously superior) Uruk-hai.
Ugluk was loyal to Saruman, Saruman was not loyal to Sauron. Why do you seek to penalize Ugluk for his master's choice. And why would we prefer a lackey Saruman to one strong enough to show his own preferences? Saruman and Ugluk were never 'supposed to be following' Sauron- they were their own branch of evil.


First of all that does not detract from his strength in cunning. Grishnakh was a leader of orcs, but not of an entire world. It's not a dis on him, it's just a statement.
I don't think Saruman would've made a good Dark Lord either but he certainly tried.
And he didn't run away rather than lead the other orcs against the Uruk-Hai (who suck) He ran away with Merry and Pippin in order to gain control of The Ring for his master.
That is not a sign of his disloyalty but rather an even greater testament to his loyalty.
Ugluk was loyal to Saruman but not very. If you remember he was always arguing with Grishnakh because he wanted to search the hobbits for the ring himself.
He could barely control himself in his loyalty to his master..let alone to Sauron.
And I completely disagree that Saruman was not supposed to be loyal to Sauron.
He was Sauron's tool, and he used the Palantir to do his bidding.
He did it for ulterior motives, namely with the intent to conquer, but he was, ostensibly at least, supposed to be fighting on the side of his Dark Lord.

Grishnakh is better. The End.

Check out his intelligence and reasoning skills against Ugluk!!

[aragil]

WtS- I have never denied Grishnakh his low cunning. However, as Harad freely pointed out often on this thread, the glorious Pentorclon is a five-stage event, with Ugluk being superior in the other four stages. Thus speaketh the democratic community.

originally posted in a malicious effort to undermine the Ugluk campaign
Ugluk was loyal to Saruman but not very. If you remember he was always arguing with Grishnakh because he wanted to search the hobbits for the ring himself.
This quote is sadly devoid of any basis from the books. Here's the facts as I reads 'em:
Number of times Ugluk expressed any desire to search the Hobbits: 0
Number of times Ugluk actually searched the Hobbits: 0
Number of times Grishnakh actually searched the Hobbits: 1
Number of times Ugluk said that the Hobbits were to be kept in pristine condition because of orders: 3 (from memory, there might have been more)

originally posted as a slander of my beloved Uruk-hai
the Uruk-Hai (who suck)
Well, we're all entitled to our opinions in these matters. Just so the readers of this thread know the facts, here they are:

Uruk-hai can fight in the sun, Mordor Orcs can not. source- Gamling, Treebeard, and (best of all) the Uruk-hai

Uruk-hai are larger and more cunning than Mordor Orcs. source- Tolkien, in Morgoth's Ring

Grishnakh, along with 100+ Moria runts and 40 Mordor Uruks does not even contemplate challenging Ugluk with his 80 Uruk-hai (not in combat, anyway). source- chapter 'The Uruk Hai'

I'm sure that Mordor Orcs have their own little endearing points. I just don't know of any.

[Wonko The Sane]

Well you'd be a better fighter too if you'd been "modified" by dark magic!
I have no respect for the Uruk-Hai because their strength and cunning is not of their own devices but was merely gifted to them by an evil-master!
The other orcs had lived for thousands of years doing just fine being evil with what they had!
Gotta stick up for the little guys.
It's like this: Say you have two girls and they're both applying for a modelling job...and they're both equally pretty, but one has been "augmented surgically" and the other has not...
If the one with the fake ta-tas gets the job over the equally pretty yet au natural one then I have NO respect for the first because she's not doing anything by her own merits!
Tis the same with real orcs vs. the Uruk-Hai

And yes, Grishnakh actually went and searched the hobbits, but that was AFTER the big row broke out amongst the other orcs and he new that Ugluk wasn't going to wait to take the ring for himself.

He and Ugluk were constantly arguing about it! Grishnakh was up for taking the hobbits to his real master...rather than to Saruman who would just take the ring for himself!

'You have spoken more than enough, Ugluk,' sneered the evil voice. 'I wonder how they would like it in Lugburz. They might think that Ugluk's shoulders needed relieving of a swollen head. They might ask where his strange ideas came from. Did they come from Saruman, perhaps? Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree wtih me, with Grishnakh their trusted messenger; and I Grishnakh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.'

[Snaga]

Originally posted by aragil
snaga1- what evidence is there that the outcome would have been different if Ugluk had 100 Orcs at his back or none? As we've pointed out before on this thread, Grishnakh did not outrun Ugluk on the plains. He used the Nazgul to fly him closer to the endpoint, and then ran a shorter race (without the handicap of the Moria Maggots to slow him up). And what exactly does Grishnakh accomplish when he catches Ugluk? Well, first off, in spite of the fact that there are now 40 Mordor Uruks and 100+ Moria Maggots, Grishnakh does not even dream of challenging Ugluk and his 80 Uruk-hai. Why, my guess is because 80 Uruk-hai vs. any 140 other Orcs is a mismatch- in favor of the Uruk-hai. Following this Grishnakh only manages one thing- he becomes directly responsible for the Hobbits escape. As Greenwood earlier pointed out, this little show of competence is directly responsible for Sauron's defeat at Minas Tirith, which in turn was responsible for Sauron letting his guard down in Mordor which allowed Frodo and Sam to destroy the Ring. Before we start digging for Elves in Ugluk's closet, we should remember what's hiding in Grishnakh's!

Grishnakh is well known as more evil than Ugluk. Without his back up, Ugluk would have been maggot-food in moments. What evidence is there that Nazgul ever flew Grishnakh anywhere? That is nonsense, a typical ape-brained comment from the miserable feeble-minded Ugluk camp. How could the Nazgul fly him from the point he leaves Ugluk? They werent there, and if they had been the outcome of the debate would have been very different. All the orcs would have fallen into line straightaway. So Grishnakh clearly makes it back to Anduin on foot. So then how could the Nazgul fly all 40 Mordor orcs back to Ugluk's gang later? Was there some kind of Hercules transport winged Nazgul that I have carelessly overlooked? Or has the preposterous Isenglob snivelling mob just lost the use of their braincell?

So your next feebleminded attempt to cover Ugluks incompetence is scarcely less pitiful. Grishnakh has muster 40 orcs. He does not confront the 80 uruk-hai. The 100+ moria orcs are taking orders from Ugluk at this point, so can hardly be counted on Grishnakhs side. However they are cooking in the sun, so I wont count them for much in any stand-off. But Grishnakh is wise, and Grishnakh is disciplined. Grishnakh sees the horse-filth coming. So yes, although 40 mordor orcs would, through their undoubtedly superior skill, cunning and experience whooped the ill-bred, ill-led @$$es of the 80 uruk-hai, Grishnakh decides not to make their common plight any worse. Of course such thinking never entered the impenetrable skull of Ugluk, or they would never have been anywhere near the horse-muck in the first place.

It is sadly true that Grishnakh fails to escape with the prisoners. But at least he (a) remembered them, since Ugluk forgot them completely, as his braincell was occupied in getting killed, and (b) tried to get them to safety.

It is also true that the hobbits escape and this precipitates the march of the ents. But, given the elven-cloaks, this might have happened anyway. And where does the main responsibility lie? With Grishnakh who tried to get them to Mordor, or with Ugluk who brought them right to Treebeards' doorstep? (And then got every last orc killed in the process). So yes, Ugluk followed Sarumans orders, and brought about his own destruction. Grishnakh did all he could to prevent it...

[aragil]

As much as I like seeing 'ta-tas' discussed in a thread, I still must point out the sad truth. Grishnakh himself (along with Shagrat and Gorbag, I might add) was the recipient of a little dark-lord modification. You can see this in appendix A, of the stewards, under the entry for Denethor I (~TA2500). Grishnakh is one of the Uruks- recipients of said modifications, as can be seen by anyone who wants to wade through Uruks vs Uruk-hai. Of course, in HoME 12 we see that it was probably the Nazgul and not the Necromancer directly who was responsible for coming up with the Uruks design template, but that is no excuse for Grishnakh and friends. So you see that Grishnakh's ta-tas were augmented, they just weren't as well augmented as Ugluk's.
My second point here would be that the Pentorclon is not like a job hiring. It's more along the lines of a wet orc-jerkin contest, in which case (well) modified ta-tas are a legitimate asset.

I never disputed the fact that Grishnakh wanted to take the Hobbits to Lugburz and Ugluk didn't. What I was saying was that Ugluk never attempted to search the Hobbits or in any other way violate the orders given him by Saruman. I think the text pretty well bears me out on this.

On an un-related note, I finally thought of something to address this:Originally posted by Harad the White
Another possible problem, I hesitate to mention, was the Orc Draught that both Ugluk and Grishnakh may have been imbibing, giving them an unfair advantage over Shagrat, and perhaps resulting in them failing the doping test.
I was thinking about this this morning (well, what else am I going to think about in the morning?). If I recall correctly, Frodo recalls some burning liquid being poured down his throat while he's reviving in the tower. This is when Shagrat and Gorbag were still chummy, so I think we can assume that all four of our contestants were imbibing- indicating to me that Orc Draught is simply the Gatorade of its era. In fact, perhaps we should start calling it Orcade?

[Snaga]

Oh yeah... orc draught ... I wouldnt be without it. Nothing wrong with that.

On the 'ta-ta's' question... I assume you mean their genetic material? Its clear there are lots of varieties of orcs, even from Gandalf description of the Grey Mountains to Bilbo. Gradations within orcs is one thing, but the Uruk-Hai appear to be a different breed entirely. Are they still orcs? I dont know.

As they are defective, I prefer not to include them.

I agree that Ugluk was loyal to Saruman. Its just that Saruman sucks, right? His mindless loyalty to his boss, got him and all the other orcs killed. The key part is 'mindless' ... he doesnt think for himself, and runs straight into trouble.

[aragil]

Ugluk doesn't run mindlessly, he runs very deliberately. He has a very clever plan to have Mauhar and his lot attack the Horseboys, which will allow Ugluk to escape with the Hobbits. Of course the plan is foiled, not by the Rohirrim but by the lowly cunning of Grishnakh, who decides that if he can't escape with the Hobbitses, nobody will.
The Orcs yelled and jeered. 'Come down! Come down!' they cried. If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai!'
Looks like they were both Orcs and Uruk-hai. Incidentally, where were you when I was struggling to convince folks that there was anything special about the Uruk-hai in U vs U-h (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2146)?

[aragil]

Originally posted by snaga1
Grishnakh is well known as more evil than Ugluk. Without his back up, Ugluk would have been maggot-food in moments. What evidence is there that Nazgul ever flew Grishnakh anywhere? That is nonsense, a typical ape-brained comment from the miserable feeble-minded Ugluk camp. How could the Nazgul fly him from the point he leaves Ugluk? They werent there, and if they had been the outcome of the debate would have been very different. All the orcs would have fallen into line straightaway. So Grishnakh clearly makes it back to Anduin on foot. So then how could the Nazgul fly all 40 Mordor orcs back to Ugluk's gang later? Was there some kind of Hercules transport winged Nazgul that I have carelessly overlooked? Or has the preposterous Isenglob snivelling mob just lost the use of their braincell?


I just noticed this post, which slipped in while I was responding to WtS. Since this has been brought up a couple of times, I think I'll try to use quotes to lay the matter to rest.
First off, the Nazgul were not on the West Side of the Anduin, but they were nearby, as pronounced by Grishnakh:'I came across,' said the evil voice. 'A winged Nazgul awaits us northward on the east-bank.' It's important to notice several things about this. First off, it is implied that the Nazgul can ferry Orcs. Second off, the Nazgul is waiting to the Northwards, which will become important momentarily. Next, is there another way across the Anduin besides the Nazgul-ferry? Well, on February the 23rd the Fellowship is attacked from the East Bank by Orcs of Mordor (who make very poor archers, I might add) while trying to go through the rapids of Sarn Gebor. These Orcs of Mordor have an exact fix on the Fellowship's location, yet are either unwilling or unable to attack the Fellowship's camp on the West Bank. Tellingly, the accompanying Nazgul's mount is shot down by Legolas. In the Chapter The Uruk-hai we get further confirmation that it is difficult for Orcs to cross the Anduin without Nazgul-ferrying: 'If we could cross the Great River, we might,' said another voice. 'But there are not enough of us to venture down to the bridges.' If there had been another way to get across the Anduin than going to the bridges (presumably of Osgiliath), then now would be the time for Grishnakh to mention them. Since he only mentions the Nazgul, I'll assume that there was no other option. This means that Grishnakh at least had to have contact with the Nazgul again in order to get his 40 lads- a perfect opportunity to shift his position. For anyone with access to a map you can see the route the Uruk-hai and Moria Runts took from the Emyn Muil- Northwest to the Entwash, then North following the river up to the eaves of Fangorn. How did Grishnakh and company approach this group? Eomer informs us that Others joined them, coming out of the East across the Great River, their trail is plain to see a little north of this spot and later we hear of this trail again Before long they came to the borders of the Entwash, and there they met the other trail of which Eomer had spoken, coming down from the East out of the Wold. So while Ugluk and company were heading along the shortest possible path -northwest- Grishnakh and company were heading straight west (coming out of the east). Either Grishnakh and boys headed first north from the Emyn Muil and then turned a 90 degree corner to head West, or else Grishnakh was flown North, and then given his troops, allowing him to cut out a large part of the Death March. If Grishnakh and boys headed first north and south it means that they covered much more ground in less time than the Uruk-hai. Is there any hint that they were capable of this? Either because they were quicker and hardier, or because of some plan of Grishnakh's, the Isengarders gradually passed through the Orcs of Mordor I think we can assume that Grishnakh (being the clever git he is) is not purposely trying to get his boys closer to the archers of the Rohirrim. This means that the Uruk-hai are quicker and hardier, making it unlikely that the Mordor Orcs travelled farther in less time. Therefore, Grishnakh was flown North and travelled a shorter distance, which also explains how he was able to get to Ugluk's band without being seen by the three hunters.

As for who is more competent in individual combat we need only look at the manner in which are contestants expire- Grishnakh is easily spitted by a single rider, Ugluk is only stopped by the personal heroism of Eomer, who dismounts to fight Mr. Magnificent sword to sword. Would Eomer ever dismount to fight Grishnakh? It is to laugh, Magnificently.

[Seraph]

Here's another vote for Ugluk, the toughest, baddest Orc around!

[Calimehtar]

Grishnak (sp?) is the best! come on! No actually I just voted for him because he is the one I remeber best. I remember him and Ugluck or whatever.

[Wonko The Sane]

Yay! Give's Bilbo'sBane a big hug! Go Grishnakh!

Welcome to the side of the onlytruly kick-@$$ orc of the bunch!

[*Lady Aragorn*]

I don't even know any of them! i just read which one sounded cooler and that was my vote.... lol!

[Wonko The Sane]

Which one sounded cooler to you?

Who did you vote for?

*Crosses fingers* GrishnakhGrishnakhGrishnakhGrishnakh!

[aragil]

Dum-da-da-da-dum-duuuum. Daaa-da-da-da-dum-duuum. daa-da-da-da-daaaaaa-da. Da-da-da-da-da-daaaaaaaa.

Today, as I stand hear listening to the triumphant Anthem of Isengard, I consider myself the luckiest Orc on the face of Middle-earth.
It hasn't always been easy. There has been ugly campaigning, and name-calling. Some have questioned my intelligence, others my leadership ability. But through it all, I tried to carry myself with a quiet dignity. When they questioned my vision, I let my sword speak for me. When they tried to steal victory from under my fangs, I again let my sword speak for me.
What has been most gratifying has been the knowledge that through it all, you, the voters of this great forum, have still shown trust in me, and that you believe me to be the best candidate in the PentOrclon. This victory belongs as much to you as it does to me.

I would like to take the opportunity during this joyous occasion to extend my claw to those who have made this event so competitive:
Gorbag, sorry to see what happened to your face. I'm sure the plastic surgeons can fix it.
Shagrat, congradulations on a race well-run. I will do my best to see that our common values of brutish strength and savage insults are upheld while I'm in office.
Grishnakh, about you I have no comment.
And finally a special mention for those who were deemed 'unfit for comptetition'- Azog, Bolg, and Snaga. While you were physically not allowed in the race, your orcish spirit was with us always- pushing us to higher levels of death marching and insult dispensing. Without you three, the Pentorclon would not have been such a tremendous success.

And a final "thank you" to everyone here. Orc draught and manflesh will now be served in the Orthanc lobby.

-Victory speech of Ugluk the Magnificent

[Lantarion]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Nicely dug-up, and nicely re-begun!

[Greenwood]

Ugluk ..... Ugluk ..... UGLUK ..... UGLUK !!!!!! (The chant reverberates around the circle of Isengard.)

[Arvedui]

OMG, I can't believe that aragil restarted this one. :D :D :D
Well, I can always enjoy a goo