Reading the Silmarillion and need help! [Archive]

GladrielElf1985

01-01-2002, 01:02 AM

I just started reading the Silmarillion and a few things are leaving me a bit confused. If you can answer my question it will be appreciated.

My main question is what is the difference between the Ainur and the Mair, and where do the Istari play into all of this???

And also in the creation myth it mentions something about a void, Is this where Middle Earth would eventually come to exsist, because I didnt quite understand the point of that.

Any additional backround info that will help me to have an easier time comprehending this work would be appreciated. Its not that it is impossible for me to understand this alone, but I figured while I have Tolkien- lore experts at my disposal I may as well take advantage of this. ;)

I have merged several similar threads on this topic to save space and answer questions more effeciently. If you have general questions about the Silmarillion... please ask them here.
Grond

Curufinwe

01-01-2002, 01:23 AM

Okay, the Ainur are called the "holy ones" they were created in the mind of Iluvater aka Eru. Some were stronger thoughts then other they were named the Valar , the were like gods. The maiar were lesser thoughts which werent as strong but still existed as if the were the same. when they came into Ea they usually served the Valar and learnt from them.

The Istari whom are the wizards were originally Maiar, they came into the middle- earth in i'm not sure but the second age? anyway they came into the world and took the shape of human's. Whether or not they are still considered maiar im noit sure but many people still regard them as such.

I can't really explain the void bit though. All I can say is that it was a place of practically nothingess except thought and there was only one being in there though im not sure if he took shape or not , Eru. Through his thought he created many creatures and the Ainur whom he showed a picture of a beautiful world and told them to create it and sent them into a place named Ea.

I'm not sure if this imformation is all correct though so I hope to be corrected by someone else.

GladrielElf1985

01-01-2002, 01:50 AM

thank you much. The bit about the Ainur creating Ea is correct becuase I just relooked over the first chapter of the Sil. Your help in the dif between Miar and Valar more appreciated than you know..........thank you. Just let me reiterate so I am sure.
Both Valar and Miar are types of Ainur (which are holy beings that are manifestations of Iluvatars mind). And The Valar are of a higher rank than the Miar.
Is this all right??

Curufinwe

01-01-2002, 03:59 AM

yep, I believe that is correct.

Atticus

01-01-2002, 05:26 AM

I am new here, so this is my hello and first post, a subject extremely of interest to me.

You know, it is kind of weird to think that Sauron was there at the beginning of all things, is it not? It is strange to think he was a Maia.

That has always been a fascinating thought to me. I hate to disturb this thread, but still, I wanted to express this.

Also, while we are on the subject of Eru, or Illuvitar as some call him, was there ever any hints or letters of the ends of Tolkien's world, the Last Battle or do you think he just let Arda's history flow on into our's. He speculated that if the stories were real, that we were nigh on the Sixth or seventh Age.

Anyway, I have heard that somewhere, or perhaps it is my hope that somehow these stories were not just a piece of his imagination, instead being some history he secretly stumbled upon and took under his name.

Dengen-Goroth

01-01-2002, 03:02 PM

The Final Battle is a piece of Tolkien Lore to which I attempt to gain as much knowledge as possible. Basically from all that I can peice together, Melkor shall escape or be released from the Voi, and in vulger terms, all hell breaks lose, because all are brought forth to battle him, THe Halls of Mandos shall empty, so we get to see all the old favourites, Feanor, Hurin, Turin (Men will also arise anew). The result will be a catastrophic "last battle" in which the world would be broken, and evil supposedly obliterated.

As for the void, it is past the doors of Night, and is an endles place of emptiness where Melkor, Morgoth Bauglir, is impirssoned till the Final Battle. ME and Valinor are not within the void, the void is on the "outside" you could say. It is basically dark, nothing is in it whatsoever. Melkor roamed there in his "early" days. Just think of it like space, except without stars and planets and the like.

Mlangley

01-03-2002, 03:11 AM

So for the first time in my life I'm going to reed the book any sugestion or opion... don't tell me anything the happend in the story..... just.......... opinions, i have read the Hobbit and the three books of the LORD OF THE RINGS......

and this is my first time in this forum as well ;)

KevinLandwaster

01-03-2002, 03:31 AM

Hi Mlangley.

I just joined this forum today after lurking for about 2 weeks.

I read the Silmarillion over the weekend and I loved it.

I'm looking foward to talking about it here!

<waves to all>

:)

Ancalagon

01-03-2002, 03:35 AM

Hello to you both and welcome. Yup, just read and enjoy, though take your time. Their are two trains of thought on The Sil.

1. Read from cover to cover.

2. Read in stages.

I would suggest reading in stages, and re-reading, along with a 'companion' guide to Middle_earth, to help get your bearings.

But hey, that's just me.

Courtney

01-03-2002, 03:42 AM

Welcome to the forum, both of you.
I've only read the Sil. twice, but I actually liked it better than the Lord of the Rings. I liked the first few chapters the best, very interesting.

KevinLandwaster

01-03-2002, 04:04 AM

Hi GladrielElf1985.

I just read the Silmarillion this weekend so a lot of it is still fresh in my mind.

Since I've only read it once, I'm sure there are finer points I have yet to pick up on, but here is my understanding of these things:

Eru (Illuvatar) is the One God, and was all alone and created the Ainur, each of whom are god-like (lesser gods?). Each of them has a different perspective on the mind of Illuvatar, some knowing more than others. At this point in the story, there is nothing else in the universe yet.

Then Illuvatar shows the Ainur a musical theme and they start singing it, and Melkor decides he wants to do his own thing and that's where all the trouble starts...but I digress.

Eventually, Eru causes Ea to be created in the void, in which Arda is placed, as an incarnation of the themes that the Ainur had merely been "singing". A group of the Ainur are allowed to go then to Arda and become part of it, and thus "bound" to it forever (until the end of time anyway.) The Ainur that went to Arda were classified as either Valar or Maia. The Valar are the "greater" gods, and the Maia are the "lesser gods." There are uncounted numbers of the Ainur who to Arda; some become the Valar, and of the Valar 16 of them become the "rulers" of Arda with Manwe as their king (the 8 Vala and the 8 Valier plus the unamed Melkor). Ok - hazy memory here, but I also believe there are many *other* Vala who are not in the "ruling" class but are still "around" and are just never named specifically.

There are also uncounted other Ainur that go to Arda and become the Maia, of which a handful become described in the Silmarillion. Note that there are still uncounted numbers of Ainur who did not go to Arda and are presumably hanging around with Eru doing whatever they do....they don't come into the story - but they are still Ainur and not Valar or Maia.

Also, there are uncounted numbers of Maia, probably hundreds, if not thousands. I say this because I recall during the several wars with Melkor, especially at the end of the 2nd age, the book talks about how the Valar assembled their hosts for battle, and I got the feeling there were thousands of Valar and Maia battling the Orcs and Melkor. Also, we know a number of Maia were corrupted and became servants of Melkor, including Sauron and the Balrogs, and unamed others as well, so there must be as many if not more "good Maia" working for the other Vala.

Anyway, in the 3rd age, the Valar wanted to lend some help to Middle-Earth because they felt they had screwed up the last two attempts to help, so they sent 5 of the Maia to Middle-Earth, who became as flesh&blood creatures in the form of old men, and these 5 were called the Istari, and one of which we know his Maia name (Gandalf - but I can't recall it exactly right now...Olomin? )

Anyway, that's what I remember anyway!

:rolleyes:

Grond

01-03-2002, 06:51 AM

Welcome KevinLandWaster. Hail and well met.

Gandalf's name in Aman was Olorin. And the Valar did not help Middle-earth at the end of the Second Age. That was when Sauron was overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad. You are thinking of the two battles against Morgoth in the First Age.

The first battle is summarized in the Quenta Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of the Elves" and describes the Valar making war on Melkor. The Elves are not yet across the sea to the Blessed Realm and still reside in Cuivienen. The Sil is pretty clear that only the Valar by themselves make war on Melkor, although I'm sure that Manwe had his herald Eonwe and there were other Maia in the train.

The second battle occurred at the end of the First Age and was brought about by the appeal of Earendil (Elrond's father). The Vala indeed had a host that fought against Melkor/Morgoth that day. This included Vala, Maia, Elves, Man and possibly Dwarves on one side and Melkor, Sauron, Balrogs, Dragons, Werewolves and Orcs on the other.

I'm really tired as it is late..... but I think this is correct. I'll look more into the references on the morrow. Right now..... it's bed time!!!:)

KevinLandwaster

01-03-2002, 07:35 AM

Hail Grond!

Thanks for your reply.

One thing I am fuzzy about is the defining milestones for each "age". I am pretty sure that I know the third age *ends* after the War of the Ring, and thus begins the fourth age.

But when the other ages start/stop I'm not clear on. I remember that the first significant event was when they captured Melkor and put him in Mandos for 3 ages (not to be confused with the other use of the term "age") and during this time was the golden age of Valinor and the Eldar...there are a couple of terms rolling around in my head...I think one is "the noontime of Valinor", that describe this period. I don't know if this was considered the First age, or age zero, or what.

But I thought that the second age started after Melkor and Ungoliant killed the two trees, stole the Silmarills, killed Finwe, and then Feanor made his oath and the exiles left Valinor.

Then there was a gradual growth and success of the Elves until they were finally pretty much crushed by Melkor, then after all hope is lost half-elf boy (sorry, foget his name) goes to Valinor to beg for help, and then the hosts of Valinor cross over the ice bridge and kick some Melkor ass, destroying his mountain, which pretty much floods all of Berialand, thus ending the 2nd age.

Then the third age starts , with Numenor being established, rising, and falling, with a migration of Men back to Gondor and Arnor, until they too fall into decline, thus setting the stage for the return of Sauron and the War of the Ring.

But like I said, the start/end milestones for the various "ages" are a bit fuzzy in my mind.

BluestEye

01-03-2002, 01:49 PM

Dear GladrielElf,

As it has been said, the Istari were 5 wizards who came from the west. They arrived in middle-earth around the year 1,000 of the second age as a combined power of five old-looking-men to push back the evil power of Sauron. Sauron himself was Morgoth's favourite captain in his evil army against the Valar and the Elves.
The Istari wore robes painted in different colors. Gandalf wore Grey. Radagast wore Brown. Saruman, the head-council of the Istari, wore White. The other 2 wizards wore Blue robes, both of them, and they are never mentioned in the Lord Of The Rings because when they arrived to middle-earth they followed Sauron to the East and learnt from him to use the Evil power. They became malignant and disappeared from all knowledge. People say that they traveled far away to the East and there established the first roots of what we call today the Satan-Cult and other cults of the same sort.

Yours for other information,
BluestEye

Telchar

01-03-2002, 02:34 PM

The other 2 wizards wore Blue robes, both of them, and they are never mentioned in the Lord Of The Rings because when they arrived to middle-earth they followed Sauron to the East and learnt from him to use the Evil power. They became malignant and disappeared from all knowledge. People say that they traveled far away to the East and there established the first roots of what we call today the Satan-Cult and other cults of the same sort.

In Unfinished Tales this is said;
Unfinished Tales p. 504
Of the Blue Wizard little was known in the West and they had no names save Ithryn Luin "The Blue Wizards"; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servant , is not now known.

But in The Peoples of Middle Earth more is said;

HoME XII The People of Middle Earth p. 384-385
The 'other two' two came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Roómesámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir rebellion.. and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in whitch they failed) and to cause [?dissension and dissaray] among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and dissaraying the forces of East ... who would have both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

BluestEye

01-03-2002, 02:45 PM

Mmmmmm.... interesting....
Well, I guess we'll find many contrary tales and match-tales in the collected works of Christopher Tolkien, because he is NOT J.R.R. himself and will never know what was in his mind for future-finished tales that he meant to write. So I guess we'll never truly know the true deeds and fortunes of the misterious Blue-Wizards...

BluestEye

Grond

01-03-2002, 02:46 PM

Ahhh. With my HoMe edition in hand turned to The Peoples of Middle-earth, Chapter XIII, Last Writings, The Five Wizards........Telchar beats me to the punch.

Hail and Well met BluestEye. I find also that you mistyped in your entry. The Blue Wizards went East with Curunir (Saruman) and not Sauron. Other than that, your thoughts were correct but Tolkien elaborated more on the subject in the HoMe.

Grond

01-03-2002, 02:50 PM

Whoa there BluestEye. The HoMe are the writings of none other than JRRT. All CT has done is organized and edited the works. The quote Telchar cited was a direct quote from the author and not edited commentary of CT. As a matter of fact, The Silmarillion is the same. Published in 1977 some five years after the author's death. So we do indeed know the author's feelings on the matter.

Telchar

01-03-2002, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by BluestEye
Mmmmmm.... interesting....
Well, I guess we'll find many contrary tales and match-tales in the collected works of Christopher Tolkien, because he is NOT J.R.R. himself and will never know what was in his mind for future-finished tales that he meant to write. So I guess we'll never truly know the true deeds and fortunes of the misterious Blue-Wizards...
BluestEye

Collected works of Christopher Tolkien? Never heard of them..
The History of Middle Earth is a series of 12 books containing writings by J.R.R. Tolkien, and coments and notes by Christopher Tolkien.. ..as Grond said..

Curufinwe

01-04-2002, 12:10 AM

Is people of middle earth the best on of the series for I always here people referring to that one particularly?

Mlangley

01-04-2002, 02:10 AM

:D I FINALLY FOUND THIS FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND I'M GOING TO READ THE SILMARILLION AND I'M GOING TO ENJOY IT

NICE TO BE HERE :p :D :)

Rosie Cotton

01-04-2002, 03:07 AM

Nice to have you here Mlangley! You too Kevin! Good luck with The Sil., I read it for the 1st time last summer, and though it was very confusing, but I'm glad I read it. If you can remember whos who, it is pretty interesting.

Telchar

01-04-2002, 09:27 AM

Nah.. There are a lot of useful information in the book, but it's boring to read it all.. :) Got to take out the interesting.. My favourites are: HoME 10; Morgoths Ring and HoME 11; War of the Jewels.

Tar-Palantir

01-04-2002, 12:50 PM

Hi guys. Enjoy the Silmarillion!! I first read it around 1978 (I was a teenager) or so, and had a rough time getting started. A lot of that had to do with the fact that it's not written as a story in the sense of LOTR and the Hobbit. It reads more like the Appendices at the end of ROTK.There's a glossary and a bunch of family trees in the back of the book - they will help you immensely. :)

Good luck and enjoy!

Telchar

01-04-2002, 12:57 PM

Welcome to the Tolkien Forum guys! :)

Hope you enjoy the Silmarillion as much as I did.

Grond

01-04-2002, 04:46 PM

Morgoth's Ring is the best read. The People of Middle-earth is a trove of information. Heck, they're all troves of information.
:)

Lorien

01-04-2002, 05:18 PM

one thing i never understood about the last battle lore is y in the world would anyone want to let melkor out in the first place(again)......especially seeing what a corrupted lot most of us are.....(including me!!!)...we'll all probably join up with melkor and kick some elvish and good man ass.....(and screw ourselves in the process)...and no matter if hurin and turin and feanor come.they'll all die just looking at the sheer no. of bad people around.......and of course the "wonderful" state of the world.....

Lorien's Gardens

Grond

01-04-2002, 06:57 PM

The Final Battle kind of equates to the Christian Armageddon. It's all a part of Eru/Iluvator's final plan and who knows the mind of Iluvator but Iluvator. Maybe the utter corruption of Man will ultimately take place and Eru will unleash Melkor/Morgoth on the world to enslave and destroy it and then release the other Valar who will vanquish Melkor/Morgoth again and make the world as it ought to have been made were it not for Melkor's discord in the Songs of the Ainur.

That's just a wild-ass guess...but probably not far from the intent.:)

Curufinwe

01-04-2002, 11:56 PM

I dont think I have ever really read about this war. where do you find out about it?

Grond

01-04-2002, 11:58 PM

It's not a war that has occurred. Several references are made to it throughout the works. I will look tonight and find a few. Most are based on statements to the effect of, "We won't know until Melkor is released and the final battle is fought." Does that quote ring a bell. I'll look it up in the Silmarillion tonight and PM you with details.

Curufinwe

01-05-2002, 12:08 AM

Thanks, I just never took any heed to what was being said there, I had thought he was gone and all theat was left was that seed of evil that could sprout in humans, as it says at the end of quenta silmarillion.

BluestEye

01-05-2002, 04:19 AM

What I meant was that CT only COLLECTED the works of J.R.R Tolkien and that we don't actualy know what is the final stories that he (J.R.R) wanted to be released as the "True" stories. He had a lot of "Scatches" of his different stories and what CT did in his "collections" was to show these works to the world even though we can't be sure if tolkien himself wanted that.

BluestEye

BluestEye

01-05-2002, 04:21 AM

The last messege was directed to Grond, so Grond: that messege was an reply to your messege a day or so ago... :-)

Grond

01-05-2002, 06:12 AM

BluestEyes, it is ironic that it appears this interpretation of the five wizards is probably as definitive as we'll get. I say that, because it is apparent that these further discussions of the Istari grew out of the Glorfindel question. Namely, was Glorfindel in Gondolin the same as Glorfindel in Rivendell? The definitive word from the author in HoMe and Letters is yes. In developing and refining the Glorfindel response, he placed the two blue wizards in Middle-earth at about the same time as Glorfindel's return from Aman. They may have even traveled on the same ship.

But as you say, these were collections of the author's ideas which were not written as books but more as research and background material. I wonder what your thought are on the Silmarillion. Do you place credence in them as the author's definitive answers on questions? The Sil was much the same as HoMe, being only thoughts and histories, albeit in a more organized form. It still took Christopher Tolkien over 3 years to compile and edit the Sil's material.

It is still interesting to read the author's ideas and concepts that one hasn't seen before, even if they don't give you a definitive answer.

:)

BluestEye

01-05-2002, 07:32 PM

Grond, I love the Sil very much, and I've read it even twice. I think it is the closest work to J.R.R's real meaning of how Middle-Earth should look like, that CT did. This is of course MY opinion. There are many people that hate the Sil and won't even look at it because it reminds them the bible or something like that.
I pitty them :-)

BluestEYe

Dengen-Goroth

01-05-2002, 07:38 PM

Refering to the Final Battle, Dagor Dagoroth (spelling may be of), upon the relese of Melkor, who can not die, least Eru destroys him, all who had died will be released, and the world shall be broken, and the Silmarils only then would be found. i think it's rebirth, allshall be destroyed and the void again shall take back where Arda stood, and then Eru will begin anew.

Grond

01-05-2002, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Dengen-Goroth
Refering to the Final Battle, Dagor Dagoroth (spelling may be of), upon the relese of Melkor, who can not die, least Eru destroys him, all who had died will be released, and the world shall be broken, and the Silmarils only then would be found. i think it's rebirth, allshall be destroyed and the void again shall take back where Arda stood, and then Eru will begin anew. Thank you Dengen. I had just read it while researching "the Blue Wizards" but forgot where I'd seen it.

Curufinwe, mention of the Dagor Dagorath is out of Unfinished Tales and as such can't be placed with the same credence as the other finished works of JRRT. But is states in UT, The Istarti, "...Manwe will not descend for the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns..."

Alas, I have found an excellent summation of the actual Myth of the Battle in HoMe, Book VI, The Shaping of Middle Earth, Chapter - The Earliest Silmarillion, where the author himself writes, "...There is also a prophecy concerning the ultimate battle, when the world is old and the Gods weary, and Morgoth will come back through the Door of Night; then Fionwe with Turin beside him shall fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and Turin shall slay him with his black sword. The Silmarils shall be recovered, and their light released, the Trees rekindled, the Mountains of Valinor levelled so that the light goes out over all the world, and Gods and Elves shall grow young again. Into this final resolution of the evil in the world it would prove unprofitable, I think, to enquire too closely..."

It should be understood that this was JRRT's writings concerning the Mythology of Middle-earth and may or may not have been incorporated into his final thoughts. They should, however, be recognised for what they are, the authors only known references to and "end of the world prophesy".:)

Curufinwe

01-05-2002, 11:43 PM

The thing Dengen-Goroth said before sounds alot like noah's arc if you think about it, although nothing survives.......Maybe some will and thats when Tolkien decided that he might lead it on into our world.

BluestEye

01-06-2002, 07:28 AM

Curufinwe, many mythology had Great Disasters that almost erased the human-race, but this doesn't mean it must be the Flood. Legends and Geology say that the Earth was covered with Fire, Water, Snow, Lava, Frost, and people even say that a meteor was the cause of the extinction of the dinosaurs. The fact is that every time the living on our planet kept going thanks to evolution, So JRRT could have been thinking about any disaster and not only the Flood and Noach's arc.
Grond, can you explain to me what the Great-Battle has to do with the Blue Wizards? (if I understood your last messege right, I mean...) Thanks,

BluestEye

Grond

01-06-2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by BluestEye
Grond, can you explain to me what the Great-Battle has to do with the Blue Wizards? (if I understood your last messege right, I mean...) Thanks,

BluestEye Nothing really. There is a long dissertation on the Istari in UT. It speaks of Olorin and states that one theory was that Gandalf was none other than an embodiment of Manwe come to ME to do battle against Sauron. It then states that isn't so because "...Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns...". That was where I had seen the reference to the Dagor Dagorath. That, in turn, gave me a key word to reference and, hence, my search found the reference to the battle in "The Shaping of Middle-earth."

:)

BluestEye

01-07-2002, 07:37 AM

I see. But from what I remember (and I can't quote it...) it is said that the Istari where powers that were made at the time when Middle-Earth needed them to overthrow the power of Sauron. So they didn't exist before that, wich means Gandalf could not be Manwe, but only one of these five Wizards.
Another thing, just curious: what happened to Gandalf when he became Gandalf the White? Who gave him this reputation? Who gave him the robes? Is it told anywhere?

BluestEye

Lorien

01-07-2002, 11:47 AM

but i personally think that JRRT should've done atleast a bit of explaining about the blue wizards...

Grond

01-07-2002, 07:53 PM

Lorien, this is for you and gives the main references of the Blue Wizards by JRRT in the texts. Please note that they do conflict as the author's own thoughts concerning the Istari and specifically the Blue Wizards changes as time went by.:)
Originally posted by Telchar in another thread on the same subjectAbout the Blue Istari...
The other 2 wizards wore Blue robes, both of them, and they are never mentioned in the Lord Of The Rings because when they arrived to middle-earth they followed Sauron to the East and learnt from him to use the Evil power. They became malignant and disappeared from all knowledge. People say that they traveled far away to the East and there established the first roots of what we call today the Satan-Cult and other cults of the same sort. In Unfinished Tales this is said;Unfinished Tales p. 504
Of the Blue Wizard little was known in the West and they had no names save Ithryn Luin "The Blue Wizards"; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servant , is not now known.But in The Peoples of Middle Earth more is said;
HoME XII The People of Middle Earth p. 384-385
The 'other two' two came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Roómesámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir rebellion.. and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in whitch they failed) and to cause [?dissension and dissaray] among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and dissaraying the forces of East ... who would have both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

Grond

01-07-2002, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by BluestEye
I see. But from what I remember (and I can't quote it...) it is said that the Istari where powers that were made at the time when Middle-Earth needed them to overthrow the power of Sauron. So they didn't exist before that, wich means Gandalf could not be Manwe, but only one of these five Wizards.
Another thing, just curious: what happened to Gandalf when he became Gandalf the White? Who gave him this reputation? Who gave him the robes? Is it told anywhere?

BluestEye I must assume that you haven't read the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or The Histories of Middle-earth, Volume XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth. These works explain that the Istari were in fact Maia of Aman and were immortal. Their embodiment as man could be destroyed but their spirit was not subject to destruction. Saruman had removed himself from the Order by delcaring himself Saruman of Many Colours and had made a Ring for himself (See The Council of Elrond in FotR), so when Gandalf's human body was killed by the Balrog, the Vala of Aman made a new body (looked basically the same) and restored him to the order as "The White".

The quote I just posted by Telchar answers some of the questions but there is a whole chapter on the Istari in UT that makes for a quite interesting read. Hope this helps.....:)

BluestEye

01-07-2002, 11:58 PM

Grond! I already read the Sil and the UT! :)
But some of the things you wrote aren't mentioned in these books so I guess you probably mixed it with the information you read in the HoMe... Well, Tolkien had a lot of stuff written in many pages, so we all get a little "mixed" up... hehehe. Just kidding. :)
Well, in the chapter of the Istari in UT it is said that the Blue Wizards' names were not only 'Ithryn Luin' ("The Blue Wizards") but there are also mentioned their real names: Alatar and Pallando.
I guess if we seek for more clues we can come up with a good long story about these Wizards after all.

BluestEye

Curufinwe

01-08-2002, 12:42 AM

Tolkien left so much stuff unexplained. Why, Because he wanted people like us too dispute it and make a story up about it. He wanted people to write other stories in middle earth and make it even more of a mythology.

Mlangley

01-08-2002, 02:22 AM

oK I NEED HELP........... IS HARD TO ME TO READ A BOOK SO I NEED A LLITTLE INTRODUCTION ABOUT THE BOOK PLEASE HELP ON THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'LL REALLY APRICIATED

:( :confused:

Grond

01-08-2002, 05:22 AM

Well, Tolkien did his best to tie up all the loose ends. Telchar and I have both spent hours replying to the questions on this thread. It's there for all to read. You can believe it's the work of the author or that Telchar and I are great writers. Your choice!:)

Mlangley

01-09-2002, 05:12 AM

I need a little introduction about the Silmarillion because I don't get it... and for me is really hard to read a book

Lorien

01-09-2002, 09:40 AM

the sil is basically a history of sorts....it starts of with how arda was created.....and just take the book really slow...i had to read things over a lot of times to get things right.....
and besides i hope that u've read the hobbit and the lotr first that helps a bit.....

Lorien

01-09-2002, 09:56 AM

considering that tolkien tried to tie up all ends he got himself into a nice little spin about the blue wizards didn't he? and i read the chapter in UT about the istari already and i still feel that he should've left something else....or atleast something indiacting which one of the many half-stories about them should be held true and belived...

Lorien

01-09-2002, 10:05 AM

ok i've already done this at the other thread u've posted but here goes.....read it SLOW....take your time and do a reread......and this book basically gives u the background u need(ed) for understanding all those verses and references in the LOTR and the Hobbit......it gives u the very beginnings of the world and the gods so my advice (again):D is read slowly and dont rush....

BluestEye

01-09-2002, 11:01 AM

I think it's the beautiful thing about it: that he left some stories in a mystery. This is why the book is called: Unfinished Tales! Nobody promissed that those tales will end in that book :)
Tolkien himself said many times that he think some tales must stay in mystery so that his world will seem more real. If he would show us all what is hidden behind the scene, where would be this magic we so love in his works?

BluestEye

ReadWryt

01-09-2002, 02:31 PM

First off, Don't try to read it like a story at first. It will drive you nuts, like laying down at the beach and trying to read the Old Testiment as though it were a Tom Clancy novel. Star off in small bites, and go back and re-read bits if you feel the need. Once there are some elves in the story and THEY start to have adventures it gets MUCH easier to read. If you are like most folks though, by the time you finish it, you will be able to breeze through the whole thing any time you wish, because it will all make sense finally.

Merry

01-09-2002, 03:10 PM

I am reading the Sil and some parts are quite deep. This web address helps loads, it simplifies the history of Arda and ME and gives a charcter breakdown etc etc

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Read small parts of the Silmarillion at a time then get an explaination from here.

Oh yeah, and have fun, it is a great read!

Merry

01-09-2002, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by ReadWryt
First off, Don't try to read it like a story at first. It will drive you nuts, like laying down at the beach and trying to read the Old Testiment as though it were a Tom Clancy novel.

Well if Tom Clancy didn't, who did clever clogs???

:)

Bombur

01-09-2002, 11:24 PM

The"Ainulindale" is the first story and is the hardest because their is little dialogue and a very high tone. Tolkien also uses lots of symbolism in it so you have to read carefully. After "Ainulindale," though, the book gets a lot easier. By the time you finish "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" you'll be a Tolkien pro. And I concur that the book cannot be read as a Tom Clancy novel. If you want to approach it with the right attitude you should read it like you read Greek or Nordic myths, that is what Tolkien was aiming at. Also, after you finish the Silmarillion, you should read LOTR again so you can get all the gaps filled in. Plus most of the poems will make better sense. ;)

Bombur

01-09-2002, 11:34 PM

Another thing is to try not to get bogged down by all the names you read. Do NOT just forget about them because I guarantee you 99.9% of then will pop back up when you least expect them. Fortunately, there is a great index of names at the back of the book which gives you a short description and page numbers (VERY handy). If you forget someone or something, just go there. You might also want to take a look at the note on pronounciation (just before the index). It will help you with those tough Elvish words and names. Just a little advice from the tubby dwarf.:D

Mithrandir_II

01-10-2002, 04:47 AM

I believe, I could be mistaken, that Tolkien wrote sil in the same manner as Beowulf is written.

Mlangley

02-07-2002, 04:43 AM

Ok remenber my thread about me reading the silmarillion, ok well I gave up to the reading, because it was on my computer and it is hard for me get in to it, because is in my father office and he loves his computer is like he was Gollum... and said my precios and everything honest!!!!! he is like that whit his computer...

AND TO ADD I WAS VERY CONFUSE TO IT... SO ON TUESDAY, ON MY B-DAY MY BEST FRIEND GIVE A COPY IN ENGLISH... GOOD PRESENT IF I MAY SAID.. I LOVE HER VERY MUCH.. SO:p
Im reading again but I AM REALLY LOST.... THE FIRST PART IS A FIGHT RIGHT?? OR AM I WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WILL LOVE TO HAVE IT IN SPANISH FIRST, MAYBE THAT WOULD MADE ME EASIER TO READ THAT BOOK, BUT THE ENGLISH IS NOT A PROBLEM BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND IT...

------------------------
A very confusing Hobbit!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Beleg Strongbow

02-07-2002, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Mlangley
Ok remenber my thread about me reading the silmarillion, ok well I gave up to the reading, because it was on my computer and it is hard for me get in to it, because is in my father office and he loves his computer is like he was Gollum... and said my precios and everything honest!!!!! he is like that whit his computer...

AND TO ADD I WAS VERY CONFUSE TO IT... SO ON TUESDAY, ON MY B-DAY MY BEST FRIEND GIVE A COPY IN ENGLISH... GOOD PRESENT IF I MAY SAID.. I LOVE HER VERY MUCH.. SO:p
Im reading again but I AM REALLY LOST.... THE FIRST PART IS A FIGHT RIGHT?? OR AM I WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WILL LOVE TO HAVE IT IN SPANISH FIRST, MAYBE THAT WOULD MADE ME EASIER TO READ THAT BOOK, BUT THE ENGLISH IS NOT A PROBLEM BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND IT...

------------------------
A very confusing Hobbit!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Happy Birthday for Tuesday Mlangley!:D :D ;) The first part of the book is about the making of Eá. (the world) Which is the music of ainur. Just keep reading it and hopefully you will get it. And i must say how all you people are amazing in the way you speak and read English even though it isn't your native toungue. Well done and :D B-day.

Luthien

02-07-2002, 05:21 AM

Don't worry, even reading the Silmarillon in spanish is dificult!
first, there are REALLY a lot of characters and places, and the style that is writen is different to other Tolkien's books. I think that is useful to make some notes about the characters and they relationship between them, although some editions have a glossary of them in the last pages.
About the first part (very roughly) Iluvatar (Eru) creates the Vala and then they sing a song to create Ea, but when they are singing Melkor tries to disturb the song, that make Eru very angry so he sings alone the songs that creates the elves and human.
I hope this would help you :)