of Ingwe and the Vanyar

[maarten]

I believe Ingwe was regarded as the Hing King off all the Eldar, but did he ever die or is he still alive in ME? And what of the Vanyar, did they ever do anything important or grande? I never read anything of their deeds...

[rootsradicals]

The Vanyar with the Valar's help saved all of Middle Earth from Melkor(Morgoth.) After none of the Nolder/Sindar/Man could beat him, Earendil went to the Valar and asked for their help. So they came over to Middle Earth and finally defeated Melkor. Its all in the Sil... Ingwe didn't die in that battle so I'm guessing the's still alive.

[Ståle]

Around from beeing the bulk of the Host of the Valar in the War of Wrath(and thus quite capable warriors), they really just hang around Manwë and Varda all day and sing stuff. That's why they are rarely mentioned in the Silmarillion.

[Mormegil]

The Vanyar are really boring. And Ingwe is the most unworthy king ever!!

[Tar-Elenion]

Ingwe actually did not participate in the War of Wrath. He never left Aman again from returning there after the Great Journey. In some writings his son led the Vanyarin portion of the Host of Valinor.

[maarten]

thx for the replys, did not know that :)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by maarten
thx for the replys, did not know that :)



He was the king of all the elder race and most dear in the hearts of manwe of all of the eldar. Also i was just wondering if say someone like Fingolfin returned 2 Aman would he be king of the noldor in Valinor or would Finarifin? Also after Gil-galad died shouldn't have Galadriel been High-queen of the noldor or if not ealier

[Brent]

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow




He was the king of all the elder race and most dear in the hearts of manwe of all of the eldar. Also i was just wondering if say someone like Fingolfin returned 2 Aman would he be king of the noldor in Valinor or would Finarifin? Also after Gil-galad died shouldn't have Galadriel been High-queen of the noldor or if not ealier

This is an interesting one and always has me puzzled because doesn't Turgon become High King after Fingon. Shouldn't that be Gil-galad ?
After all Maedhros was technically King after Faenor so why Turgon ?

[Tar-Elenion]

feanor was not King of the Noldor. He lost his rights to that. Maedhros was not King of the Noldor. Turgon was the eldest eligible member of the House of Finwe and thus became King after Fingon. Women did not inherit the Kingship and thus Galadriel was ineligible.

[Brent]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
feanor was not King of the Noldor. He lost his rights to that. Maedhros was not King of the Noldor. Turgon was the eldest eligible member of the House of Finwe and thus became King after Fingon. Women did not inherit the Kingship and thus Galadriel was ineligible.

Not Sure I agree with you. I wont argue Feanors case for High Kingship but I think you'll find its there, he dies. Then does it not say that Maedhros gave up his claim to the High Kingship to heal the rift between the two lines of the house of Finwe ? - Perhaps Grond or another loremaster has a comment here, but there doesn't seem to be talk of a contested claim. Also doesn't it say that the Noldor who remain took Finarfin for their King ? Its doesn't say High King though. Not sure on that one since Felagund is refered to as a King.

Therefore it would appear that the High Kingship passes to the male heir of the body.
Did Sallic law apply to the Elves ? Not sure on that, it seems a good reason why Elrond is not High King in the Third age since his claim would have to go through Idril.

If your arguement was correct the RIGHTFUL high king would have been Fingolfin anyway - as he was the eldest of the house of Finwe. Nope the book doesn't say that. When Fingon dies the eldest mael heir is .... Gil-Galad.

I agree the common arguement used is Turgon's age and it may be of relevance. Its not a great one though because Turgon was hidden away from everybody so Gil-galad would have been just as effective as King and isnt the title Titular anyway ?

[Brent]

Back on topic

I understand that Finwe was one of the unbegotten ones but that Ingwe wasn't. Elwe wasn't because he had two brothers. Can anyone provide more info on the unbegotten ones. Is there anywhere a reason why the High King of All the Elves is not one of those that awoke ?

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Brent
I understand that Finwe was one of the unbegotten ones but that Ingwe wasn't. Elwe wasn't because he had two brothers. Can anyone provide more info on the unbegotten ones. Is there anywhere a reason why the High King of All the Elves is not one of those that awoke ?

None of them were 'Unbegotten'. The Unbegotten (and 'legend' has it there were 144) each awoke with their respective spouse. Finwe was wed to Miriel, and Miriel had parents (Miriel was named 'Serinde' by her mother) and was, it is strongly implied, born in Aman. Elwe was wed to Melian of the Maia, and she did not 'awake' at Cuivienen, and as you note, he had to brothers. Ingwe had a sister (Indis, or Indis mother) and thus had parents.

Originally posted by Brent
Not Sure I agree with you. I wont argue Feanors case for High Kingship but I think you'll find its there, he dies. Then does it not say that Maedhros gave up his claim to the High Kingship to heal the rift between the two lines of the house of Finwe ? - Perhaps Grond or another loremaster has a comment here, but there doesn't seem to be talk of a contested claim. Also doesn't it say that the Noldor who remain took Finarfin for their King ? Its doesn't say High King though. Not sure on that one since Felagund is refered to as a King.
Therefore it would appear that the High Kingship passes to the male heir of the body.

At the time of the Rebellion of the Noldor, Fingolfin was the ruler of the Noldor of Tirion. Feanor had been exiled and Finwe held himself 'unkinged' (in effect he abdicated). After Finwe's death Feanor claims the Kingship, but this is not accepted by the most part of the Noldor, who will not renounce Fingolfin. Feanor and Fingolfin each claim the Kingship (hence 'rival claimants') and Feanor seems to recognize that his claim is in dispute as he later refers to himself as 'heir of the king', not as 'King' despite having asserted his right to it. Maedhros was not King of the Noldor (though he was a king of the Noldor). He waived his claim to the Kingship, in favour of Fingolfin's claim; Maedhros did not however 'abdicate'. Finarfin took up the rule of the Noldor who remained in Aman.



Did Sallic law apply to the Elves ? Not sure on that, it seems a good reason why Elrond is not High King in the Third age since his claim would have to go through Idril.

Some argue yes, some argue no. It might be noted that Dior was 'Thingol's Heir', and this was through a female line. It is implied that Maeglin could have been Turgon's heir (at least of Gondolin) and this is through a female line. It is also interesting to note that before their was a Gil-galad (the character) it was Elrond who 'ruled in the west of the world'. Gil-galad later replaced him in this position.


If your arguement was correct the RIGHTFUL high king would have been Fingolfin anyway - as he was the eldest of the house of Finwe. Nope the book doesn't say that.
What Maedhros says is: "If their lay no greivance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise."


When Fingon dies the eldest mael heir is .... Gil-Galad.

I agree the common arguement used is Turgon's age and it may be of relevance. Its not a great one though because Turgon was hidden away from everybody so Gil-galad would have been just as effective as King and isnt the title Titular anyway ?

When Fingon died the eldest (eligible) male heir was Turgon. Gil-galad was young (having been born in Beleriand). One main problem is that there were seemingly no 'codified' laws on inheritance of the Kingship at least not initially (and what need? No reason to believe an 'immortal' is going to die out of hand).

[Brent]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion


None of them were 'Unbegotten'. The Unbegotten (and 'legend' has it there were 144) each awoke with their respective spouse. Finwe was wed to Miriel, and Miriel had parents (Miriel was named 'Serinde' by her mother) and was, it is strongly implied, born in Aman. Elwe was wed to Melian of the Maia, and she did not 'awake' at Cuivienen, and as you note, he had to brothers. Ingwe had a sister (Indis, or Indis mother) and thus had parents.

So this is the Indis who is wed to Finwe. I though its says that Finwe "awoke", though that would contradict the Unbegotten theory I suppose.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion


When Fingon died the eldest (eligible) male heir was Turgon. Gil-galad was young (having been born in Beleriand). One main problem is that there were seemingly no 'codified' laws on inheritance of the Kingship at least not initially (and what need? No reason to believe an 'immortal' is going to die out of hand).

etc etc. Thanks these posts are very informative. Does this info come from the HoME (I admit its a long time since I read the Sil.) ?

BTW the lack of codified laaws on the succession would mirror the olde English position on the title High King so I suppose that would appeal to JRR.

Thanks for this info - where can I find out more about the Unbegotten ?

[Cian]

Brent, you can find Unbegotten related stuff in "Quendi and Eldar" in The War of the Jewels and the appendixed Cuivienyarna (a surviving Elvish child's tale mingled with counting lore)

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Brent
So this is the Indis who is wed to Finwe. I though its says that Finwe "awoke", though that would contradict the Unbegotten theory I suppose.

???
You thought what said Finwe 'Awoke'?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Brent


etc etc. Thanks these posts are very informative. Does this info come from the HoME (I admit its a long time since I read the Sil.) ?

BTW the lack of codified laaws on the succession would mirror the olde English position on the title High King so I suppose that would appeal to JRR.

Thanks for this info - where can I find out more about the Unbegotten ?



Didn't Maedshros not claim the kingship after feanor fell. He gave it to fingolfin and then it was passed down onto the oldest living decendant of finarfin or fingolfin. The feanoreans went to happy with it either exc. Maedhros.

[Tar-Elenion]

Yes, Maedhros waived his claim, saying that the Kingsgip was rightfully Fingolfin's. Fingolfin had been pursuing his claim to the Kingship back in Aman at the same time Feanor was.

[Brent]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion


???
You thought what said Finwe 'Awoke'?

Sorry the Silmarillion, its ages since I sat down and read it. But I thought it says Finwe awoke with the other Elves at Cuiviénen.

[Tar-Elenion]

Ah, I see. Actually the published Silmarillion does not say that.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Brent
Not Sure I agree with you. I wont argue Feanors case for High Kingship but I think you'll find its there, he dies. Then does it not say that Maedhros gave up his claim to the High Kingship to heal the rift between the two lines of the house of Finwe ? - Perhaps Grond or another loremaster has a comment here, but there doesn't seem to be talk of a contested claim. Also doesn't it say that the Noldor who remain took Finarfin for their King ? Its doesn't say High King though. Not sure on that one since Felagund is refered to as a King.

Therefore it would appear that the High Kingship passes to the male heir of the body.
Did Sallic law apply to the Elves ? Not sure on that, it seems a good reason why Elrond is not High King in the Third age since his claim would have to go through Idril.

If your arguement was correct the RIGHTFUL high king would have been Fingolfin anyway - as he was the eldest of the house of Finwe. Nope the book doesn't say that. When Fingon dies the eldest mael heir is .... Gil-Galad.

I agree the common arguement used is Turgon's age and it may be of relevance. Its not a great one though because Turgon was hidden away from everybody so Gil-galad would have been just as effective as King and isnt the title Titular anyway ? I wouldn't presume to argue with Tar-Elenion about anything. You think I'm a lore master. I am one that bows to the insight of Tar-Elenion, ShagratU and Cian. They are the true loremasters of the board. All others are merely students. :)

[Brent]

Originally posted by Grond
I wouldn't presume to argue with Tar-Elenion about anything. You think I'm a lore master. I am one that bows to the insight of Tar-Elenion, ShagratU and Cian. They are the true loremasters of the board. All others are merely students. :)

But then I'd presume to argue with anyone, I am after all, a freeborn Englishman :)

[Hama]

After Feanor led the Noldor to Middle Earth, and was mortally wounded in battle, Maedhros was worried that the other two houses (That of Fingolfin and Finarfin) would no longer follow his claim to the high kingship of the noldor so, as someone already said, he waived it in favor of Fingolfin. Upon Fingolfin's death, Fingon took it up, and on his death, Gil-galad was too young, and therefore Turgon (who was the most powerful ruler and at that time still hidden) took it up. Upon his death it went to Gil Galad and after that, at the end of the second age, there were not enough Noldorin in Middle Earth to justify having a high king. Remember, the elves of Rivendell were mainly Sindarin, Eregion was deserted, having been the major Noldorin settlement in the second age, and Galadriel ruled over either sindar or silvan elves. Thranduil was a wood-elf, and Cirdan was a sindar, so there was no one who could rightfully claim to be high king, and it was no longer necessary. Both Elrond and Galadriel had some Sindarin blood as well.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Hama
...Thranduil was a wood-elf, and Cirdan was a sindar, so there was no one who could rightfully claim to be high king, and it was no longer necessary. Both Elrond and Galadriel had some Sindarin blood as well. I agree with your entire post until you get to the quoted portion above.
1) Thranduil was King of the Wood-elves (Silvan Elves) of Mirkwood but was a Sindarin Elf as was his father King Oropher. (full account given in UT). Most Silvan Elves preferred being ruled by Sindarin or other High-elves. (Other examples are Silvan in Lorien ruled by Celeborn and Galadriel and Silvan in Imladris ruled by Elrond.)
2) Cirdan was a Teleri Elf and his story is told in the Sil, UT and HoMe.

[Hama]

You are correct about Thranduil, Grond. My mistake. But that still does not affect the point I am trying to make. Also, I thought you of all people should know that the Sindar are a subcategory of the Umanyar who are Teleri. The Sindar were those of the Teleri who remained in Beleriand mainly in the ports of Brithombar and Eglarest. So Cirdan was both a Sindar and a Teleri.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Hama
You are correct about Thranduil, Grond. My mistake. But that still does not affect the point I am trying to make. Also, I thought you of all people should know that the Sindar are a subcategory of the Umanyar who are Teleri. The Sindar were those of the Teleri who remained in Beleriand mainly in the ports of Brithombar and Eglarest. So Cirdan was both a Sindar and a Teleri. I knew that.......once upon a time. :) (I always get all the categories, sub-categories and sub-sub-categories of the Elves mixed up. You know that Vanyar and the Teleri and the Walmarty.) :)

[Beleg Strongbow]

It is hard to remember them all and where who goes eh.:D :) :)

[baraka]

Around from beeing the bulk of the Host of the Valar in the War of Wrath(and thus quite capable warriors), they really just hang around Manwë and Varda all day and sing stuff. That's why they are rarely mentioned in the Silmarillion.

I agree with that stament, but i believe that the Noldor could beat the Vanyar in combat. What Vanyar could stand against Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, etc.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by baraka


I agree with that stament, but i believe that the Noldor could beat the Vanyar in combat. What Vanyar could stand against Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, etc.


yes i think so 2. They'd have more but hey would have no weapons and the valour and splendour of the noldor they wouldn't be able 2 take.

[baraka]

yes i think so 2. They'd have more but hey would have no weapons and the valour and splendour of the noldor they wouldn't be able 2 take.

Do you think that the Vanyar were more numerous than the Noldor. Why?

[Hama]

I believe that the Silmarillion gives some details comparing the two populations. "The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwe...The Vanyar were his people"
One must also remember that the Silmarillion is the story of the Noldor, so naturally more emphasis is placed on their deeds in middle earth. Just because the Vanyar were less rebellious and chose to live under the protection of the Valar does not mean they were more cowardly.

[baraka]

Just because the Vanyar were less rebellious and chose to live under the protection of the Valar does not mean they were more cowardly.
I don´t think that the Vanyar were cowards, I just think that the Noldorin Princes (Feanor, Fingolfin and their descendants) had no matches if they were to fight against the Vanyar. :confused:
The Vanyar would be the most boring elves ever.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by baraka

I don´t think that the Vanyar were cowards, I just think that the Noldorin Princes (Feanor, Fingolfin and their descendants) had no matches if they were to fight against the Vanyar. :confused:
The Vanyar would be the most boring elves ever.


yeah that is right and they would be a huge people now with them never dying in aman and them just keep reproducing.

[Hama]

First of all, boring does not necessarily mean less prowess in arms. Secondly, the elves, as a general rule, do not reproduce very rapidly at all, so they may not have surpassed the Noldor population in numbers. I am not saying the Vanyar were better, there is just no proof in any literary form of either faction being stronger. One must remember though that some Vanyar, although not their leader, took part in the War of Wrath.

[baraka]

First of all, boring does not necessarily mean less prowess in arms. Secondly, the elves, as a general rule, do not reproduce very rapidly at all, so they may not have surpassed the Noldor population in numbers.

I agree that the elves do no reproduce very rapidly. But can you name any Vanyar that did anything significant in the history of ME. Any inventions they made or anything.
I can´t. Do you think that a vanyar price could have beaten either Feanor or Fingolfin? Finarfin probably.

[Ståle]

The bulk of The Host of the Valar in the War of the Wrath was Vanyar. So they are warriors. Just because they are not as rash doesn't mean they can't fight.

[baraka]

The bulk of The Host of the Valar in the War of the Wrath was Vanyar. So they are warriors. Just because they are not as rash doesn't mean they can't fight.

Do you think that if the Vanyar went to ME instead of the Noldor, would they have fared better than the Noldor?

My humble opinion is NO!:cool:

Fingolfin could have defeated any Vanyar in one on one combat.

[Grond]

We have no Vanyar warrior to compare Fingolfin to. It said in the Silmarillion that Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. That seems a definitive declaration to me but it is true that the Vanyar made up the bulk of the host that stormed Angband with Earendil. I don't think I would have wanted to face any Elf in anger whether they were Teleri, Noldor or Vanyar. :)

[baraka]

I don't think I would have wanted to face any Elf in anger whether they were Teleri, Noldor or Vanyar.

But if you have to choose an elf for a fight, who would you choose a noldor, vanyar or teleri?

[Grond]

Of course if I had to choose it would be Fingolfin. But, I would most definately want him on my side. If I had to fight an Elf, I would choose the weenie Feanor who was always great at starting fights but could never seem to finish one. :):p

[baraka]

If I had to fight an Elf, I would choose the weenie Feanor who was always great at starting fights but could never seem to finish one.

Weeni Feanor!:mad:

Well if I seem to recall my Sil, Feanor battled and was defeated by Balrogs, he didn´t fled or escaped. He was rescued by his brother. At least Feanor had the vision to defy the Valar and try to avenge his father.

What would his other 2 sons (Fingolfin and Finarfin) had done? Well they killed our father but if Manwe says to leave Melkor alone, then that´s what we will do!

[baraka]

Let´s see the definition of weenie!
ween·ie

Slang. A person, especially a man, who is regarded as being weak and ineffectual.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved

Now in my sil i have:
For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath.

I don´t think that he can be regarded as weak or inefectual. He led the Noldor to exile. :eek:

[Tinder]

Hi, I'm new to this forum, so I hope I'm not speaking out of line. But with regards to Feanor and Fingolfin - I think if it had kicked off between them that fateful day in Tirion, Fingolfin would have found himself in real trouble... Feanor? that guy was crazy!!!

[baraka]

Hi Tinder and welcome to this forum.:)

I think if it had kicked off between them that fateful day in Tirion, Fingolfin would have found himself in real trouble... Feanor? that guy was crazy!!!

Now that would have been very interesting, Fingolfin vs Feanor. I also think that Feanor would have won, but i´m the minority.:confused:

[Grond]

originally posted by baraka
Let´s see the definition of weenie!
ween·ie

Slang. A person, especially a man, who is regarded as being weak and ineffectual.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved

Now in my sil i have:
"For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath.

I don´t think that he can be regarded as weak or inefectual. He led the Noldor to exile. :eek:baraka, aside from making the Silmarils, please name something "effectual" that Feanor did after his rebellion against the Valar.... that's what I thought. So we're agreed he was ineffectual. Also, please show me somewhere he exhibited "strength of character". He asserted a claim on something that he had made with his own hands, even though the very essence of his work came from Yavanna (the blended light of the two trees). He pridefully refused to volunteer them to "heal" the two trees after Melkor had killed them with Ungoliant and he was totally despicable in the way he 1) attacked and killed the Teleri in Aqualonde and 2) abandoned his kin to the cold of Helcarxe. He never came close to accomplishing his vow and when someone else was successful in taking a Silmaril from Melkor, the vow he made his sons swear made them attack and seek to kill the noblest man of all, Beren. I said he was a "weenie" but I should have said a "despicable weenie".

Lastly, I already quoted the Simarillion in a previous post as to who would win a battle between Feanor and Fingolfin. For one thing, Fingolfin would have the whole righteousness thing going for him. And I will post the quote again, "Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant." Feanor wouldn't have stood a chance. (Unless all of his sons jumped into the fray and stabbed Fingolfin in the back as was their wont.)

[baraka]

please name something "effectual" that Feanor did after his rebellion against the Valar.... that's what I thought

He led the Noldor from Valinor to ME even thought they liked their lives in there and it was against the will of the Valar.

Also, please show me somewhere he exhibited "strength of character".

Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath.
If that is not strenght of character I don´t know what it is. (Insane, yes Intelligent no, but very courageous.)

I see in your reply that you don´t think that Feanor is weak.

He pridefully refused to volunteer them to "heal" the two trees after Melkor had killed them with Ungoliant and he was totally despicable in the way he 1) attacked and killed the Teleri in Aqualonde and 2) abandoned his kin to the cold of Helcarxe. He never came close to accomplishing his vow and when someone else was successful in taking a Silmaril from Melkor

Yes, i agree that that was very bad, but a person that had no "strength of character" would not have made that oath.

In the end you might say that he was despicable, but not a despicable weenie.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by baraka


Yes, i agree that that was very bad, but a person that had no "strength of character" would not have made that oath.

In the end you might say that he was despicable, but not a despicable weenie.



Yeah he did a thing no other could do. He made them go with his strength of will even though it was stupid. He then ran out to have a go att all the balrogs. Even though it was dumb it was pretty crazy.

[baraka]

The title of the Thread is:
of Ingwe and the Vanyar

And here we are discussing Feanor. Interesting and very cool.;)

[Grond]

Two questions baraka and Beleg.
1) Did Feanor show "strength of character" in murdering his kin at Aqualonde and in abandoning his kin to cross the Ice of Helcarxe?
2) Was he effectual or ineffectual in making good on his oath and in taking the Silmarils from Morgoth?

So you have already admitted he was despicable and the answer to the above two questions will leave you no choice but to believe 1) he had no strength of character and 2) he was totally ineffectual in carrying out his whole purpose for abandoning Valinor.

So, no matter how you look at him, he was a man of weak character and a man who was totally ineffectual in completing his goals and quest. That would make him a "despicable weenie" by your own definition. :)

[baraka]

1) Did Feanor show "strength of character" in murdering his kin at Aqualonde and in abandoning his kin to cross the Ice of Helcarxe?

It all depends on your definition of "strength of character". The fact that he did such hideous act in order to follow his will shows me a great determination that no matter what, he will follow with his words.

In the abandoning of his kin to cross the Ice of Helcarxe, i think it was bad but remember that they were utering curses at him. (No i do not see it as an excuse). You could say that the fact that he was eager to fight against Morgoth with only a part of the total Noldorian people shows that he really didn´t care the consequences of his acts, he just followed his will.:(


2) Was he effectual or ineffectual in making good on his oath and in taking the Silmarils from Morgoth?
He as himself didn´t got his Silmarils, but not because of his lack of trying, but in the end two of his sons Maedhros and Maglor each got a silmaril. The fact that each one of them threw them away is another matter.

You can call Feanor a lot of things, but weenie is not one of them. You have not proven that he was weak.

;)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Grond
Two questions baraka and Beleg.
1) Did Feanor show "strength of character" in murdering his kin at Aqualonde and in abandoning his kin to cross the Ice of Helcarxe?
2) Was he effectual or ineffectual in making good on his oath and in taking the Silmarils from Morgoth?

So you have already admitted he was despicable and the answer to the above two questions will leave you no choice but to believe 1) he had no strength of character and 2) he was totally ineffectual in carrying out his whole purpose for abandoning Valinor.

So, no matter how you look at him, he was a man of weak character and a man who was totally ineffectual in completing his goals and quest. That would make him a "despicable weenie" by your own definition. :)



No i'm not sure but a weak man with no character would have done it it would have taken a lot of character 2 get them 2 do it. Though it was stupid and unnecisary

[Grond]

baraka, let me get this straight.
1) He kills his sister-in-laws people at Aqualonde so that he can "steal" their ships.
2) He then burns the ships when he gets to Beleriand. So he's so far guilty of Murder and theft and destruction of property.
3) He abandons his brother (who has sworn fealty to him) and the rest of his kin. (By the way, they were cursing Feanor because he had just murdered their own kin, the Teleri of Aqualonde.)
4) He never fulfills his quest to recover the Silmarils and he dies very early in the quest.
5) Finally, after thousands of years, two of his sons recover the Two Silmarils from the victorious Valar who give them up to Feanor's sons. (Notice that the sons did nothing in helping to win them, that was done by the Vanyar, the Valar and Earendil.)

Well, I guess after all that, you're right!! Feanor was a heck of a guy and so were his back stabbing sons. :(

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Grond
to win them, that was done by the Vanyar, the Valar and Earendil.)

Well, I guess after all that, you're right!! Feanor was a heck of a guy and so were his back stabbing sons. :( [/B]





No thats it. He wasn't a good guy he was strong willed and mixed up in melkor's lies.

[baraka]

Grond, you are changing the topic of our discussion.

I didn´t say Feanor was a heck of a guy (elf), he really did some horrible deeds.
It´s bad that he deviated from the path of good.

But the point is that Feanor is NOT a WEENIE character and he had a great strenght of will.

By the way, they were cursing Feanor because he had just murdered their own kin, the Teleri of Aqualonde

Remember that some members of the hosts of Fingolfin participated in that battle althoght they didn´t know that Feanor started it.:confused:

[Grond]

First, I believe that it was Finarfin's folk that came up on the foray and didn't understand what was going on. They then jumped into the fray... but I'll give you that because Fingolfin was the leader of that faction of Finwe's Noldor.

Second, you are the hardest of people to convince. Have I not given you plenty of examples where Feanor showed himself as weak (giving in to his pride for one) and he was totally ineffectual in conducting his war to regain the Silmarils. I have proven he is a weenie that meets your definition. How can I possibly be wrong? It is right there in the paragraph. He was weak and ineffectual. I can't give you more than that. :confused:

I will give you one thing though. He was absolutely essential to the story and he had to do what he did in order for the Silmarillion to be the Silmarillion. :)

[baraka]

Have I not given you plenty of examples where Feanor showed himself as weak (giving in to his pride for one)

In that respect i´ll admit that he is weak in letting his pride take the better of him, but at the same time he never abandons the strenght of his convictions (althougt evil in themselves) and that shows to me a great streght of will.

he was totally ineffectual in conducting his war to regain the Silmarils
I agree that the way he conducted his part in the battle was not very efficient, but I think that despite the murdering of the elves in Aqualonde, he gets the Noldor to follow him to ME. Now that is effective.

They were certain things that could be considered weak and ineffectual, but others can be considered efficient and strong.

How can I possibly be wrong?
You are not wrong in those arguments, but these were not his only actions.


You really don´t like Feanor!:eek:

[Grond]

baraka, I just don't like people who are guided by pride and let it get in the way of everything. You'll find in previous posts that I also do not like Turin much either. His pride, in my opinion, was greater even than that of Feanor. But not liking them does not mean that they have less importance or significance to the works. What on Earth would the Silmarillion be without the contributions of Feanor and Turin? Not that much. So there you have it. It takes some bad apples to make for a wonderful pie. And more importantly, oft times much good comes from that which begins bad or evil. :)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Grond
baraka, I just don't like people who are guided by pride and let it get in the way of everything. You'll find in previous posts that I also do not like Turin much either. His pride, in my opinion, was greater even than that of Feanor. But not liking them does not mean that they have less importance or significance to the works. What on Earth would the Silmarillion be without the contributions of Feanor and Turin? Not that much. So there you have it. It takes some bad apples to make for a wonderful pie. And more importantly, oft times much good comes from that which begins bad or evil. :)



Letme geuss Grond you love Fingolfin???? How did i know??? And why was turin so bad?? You're right without Feanor there wouldn't be a Silmarillion and the men would probably be enslaved or working for morgoth??? Who knows???:D :) ;) ;) :) :eek: :confused: :confused:

[Hama]

It's funny but both you fellows seem to be hitting the same points and coming with completely different conclusions. I think the root of the problem lies in the lack of a common definition for "weak". I agree that Feanor was one of the greatest of the Noldor, as JRRT said, stating that only Galadriel compared to him. But he was also rash and by no means noble. He had a clear purpose and was brave (or stupid, or both). He was not physically weak. The skill clearly states that he was skilled in arms, but does not compare him to Fingolfin. JRRT does give more praise to the latter though, as someone quoted earlier. Was Feanor weak-willed? Yes and no. He could not give up the lust for the silmarils, but then neither could Elwe or almost anyone else. Everyone lusted for them, especially their creator. He was also too eager for knowledge and power, and therefore did many of those dreadful things. But he was not weak to state what he wanted to, even if it meant fighting Melkor, defying the Valar and taking on a horde of Balrogs. So you are both right in different respects. By the way, Feanor is not one of my favorite characters, and I agree with you Grond, neither is Turin. Both are far too rash, self-centered and motivated by lust or greed.

[baraka]

baraka, I just don't like people who are guided by pride and let it get in the way of everything
I can live with that.

What on Earth would the Silmarillion be without the contributions of Feanor and Turin?
You are absolutely right. I really don´t care much about Turin either.

And more importantly, oft times much good comes from that which begins bad or evil.
Couldn´t agree more, thought i wouldn´t call Feanor a bad apple.

It's funny but both you fellows seem to be hitting the same points and coming with completely different conclusions. I think the root of the problem lies in the lack of a common definition for "weak". I agree that Feanor was one of the greatest of the Noldor, as JRRT said, stating that only Galadriel compared to him. But he was also rash and by no means noble

no·ble adj. no·bler, no·blest
1)Possessing hereditary rank in a political system or social class derived from a feudalistic stage of a country's development.

2)Having or showing qualities of high moral character, such as courage, generosity, or honor: a noble spirit.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Well, if we look at def. 1, Feanor is indeed noble but using def. 2 he in the end did not show qualities of high moral character. And therefore is not noble.
Personally I abide by def. 2 and i agree that he is not noble.

Was Feanor weak-willed? Yes and no.
I agree with that. He was in many ways an ambivalent character.

He was also too eager for knowledge and power, and therefore did many of those dreadful things. But he was not weak to state what he wanted to, even if it meant fighting Melkor, defying the Valar and taking on a horde of Balrogs.
I totally agree.

Feanor is not one of my favorite characters
He is definitely my favorite character. Mightiest of all the children of Iluvatar.

Hama I think that you hit the point. I really liked your post.

[maarten]

Originally posted by Grond
baraka, I just don't like people who are guided by pride and let it get in the way of everything. You'll find in previous posts that I also do not like Turin much either. His pride, in my opinion, was greater even than that of Feanor. But not liking them does not mean that they have less importance or significance to the works. What on Earth would the Silmarillion be without the contributions of Feanor and Turin? Not that much. So there you have it. It takes some bad apples to make for a wonderful pie. And more importantly, oft times much good comes from that which begins bad or evil. :)

Grond, how can u compare Feanor and Turin like that? Turin was more a man to pity. He lost all his loved ones early in his live (Feanor also i know that). He was cursed by Melkor, nothing ever went right for him. And the pride that was left in him, he only used for good things, leading a band of outlaws to make a stronghold agains Morgoth and killing Glaurung. He was just misunderstood alot, or thought he was, and that is why things went wrong for him. Well thats what i think.

[baraka]

maarten: sorry that your thread got so far away from your original title.:eek:

[maarten]

Originally posted by baraka
maarten: sorry that your thread got so far away from your original title.:eek:

Hehe i dont mind it :) Its fun, its a feircy debate now

[Grond]

Originally posted by maarten
Hehe i dont mind it :) Its fun, its a feircy debate now Thank you for being so understanding. Many times these threads will start out with one topic and then grow into a different beast altogether. This is one of the most interesting threads I've participated in for a while and digging deep into our feelings concerning the main characters in the Silmarillion is a way to both develop and refine our own perceptions of these great people.

I've been hard throughout my tenure here on both Feanor and Turin. It has been unjust many times. I dislike Feanor for being the chosen of his father. He always loved Feanor the most, over his two sons Fingolfin and Finarfin. Feanor's callous disregard and insult of Fingolfin has always been a thorn in my side (since Fingolfin is my favorite character.)

As far as Turin is concerned, I dislike him because, like Feanor, his most serious shortfalling is his unwavering pride. These are the people of the world who would willingly die for a principle. These are the people to whom the word compromise doesn't exist. These are the anti-pragmatists and people of unwavering commitment who take the world into conflicts that could be settled through negotiation instead of war. These are also the traits that differentiate the Great from the ordinary; and, I guess I'm just so ordinary that I'm jealous. :)

[Goro Shimura]

How does that bit of Lord Acton's go? The second clause is less well known:

"Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are always bad men."

Something like that.

[Tinder]

I think that the priciple point in the whole Feanor debate is that he was corrupted by the lies of Melkor... as for any thoughts of him being 'stupid' - well that is out of the question. Feanor had such a subtlety of mind that even Gandalf was in awe of it as - I think somebody has already mentioned. I think it's important to see Feanor as a Tragic figure - a great man laid low by his own greatness. We should then pity the loss of such a great mind and the great works he still could have accomplished in Valinor. In my mind Feanor is the most fasinating of all Tolkien's characters - of all the Children of Illuvatar - the most removed, and yet the closest to the mind of Modern Man. And I still think Feanor would have defeated Fingolfin at the council in Tirion - reagardless of the latter's skill in Battle - Feanor had a spirit of fire and I doubt that the Valour of Fingolfin, considerable as it was, could stand before it. Like Gandalf I can think of no thing better than 'to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and percieve the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at work...'
As for Fingolfin, well he was surely the noblest and most admirable of the Princes of the house of Finwe. Without a doubt the most couragous - personally I found his duel with Melkor to be the bravest act of heroism in all the Histories of Arda - but it was still folly, Fingolfin too, fell as a victim to his own pride.

[Grond]

Nay, say anger, frustration and hopelessness... not pride.

[Tinder]

Of course you're right Grond; I just feel that Feanor has not been treated very justly. As for his sons - well that's a different story...

[baraka]

In my mind Feanor is the most fasinating of all Tolkien's characters - of all the Children of Illuvatar - the most removed,
I agree.:)

. And I still think Feanor would have defeated Fingolfin at the council in Tirion - reagardless of the latter's skill in Battle - Feanor had a spirit of fire and I doubt that the Valour of Fingolfin, considerable as it was, could stand before it.
Do you say that in a duel of swords or words? If it´s swords, Grond do you see another passionate argument coming? :p

As for Fingolfin, well he was surely the noblest and most admirable of the Princes of the house of Finwe. Without a doubt the most courageous - personally I found his duel with Melkor to be the bravest act of heroism in all the Histories of Arda
He was definitely the bravest, just that i always thought that Feanor could have battled Morgoth!;)

I've been hard throughout my tenure here on both Feanor and Turin. It has been unjust many times
Grond, i don´t think that you have been unjust, on the contrary you were right on the mark!:) I like "debating" with people who are very passionate about their thoughts.

Tinder, i really liked your post.:) Welcome, fellow "Feanorite"

[Camille]

What a good thread!!! from Ingwe and the Vanyar to do you like or dislike Feanor!!! too bad I checked this thread too late, it seams that the discussion is over... I have some words regarding feanor and Turin...
Greetings

[baraka]

Originally posted by Camille
What a good thread!!! from Ingwe and the Vanyar to do you like or dislike Feanor!!! too bad I checked this thread too late, it seams that the discussion is over... I have some words regarding feanor and Turin...
Greetings

Well Camille, if you would like to discuss about Feanor, i will gladly be of service.

[Camille]

Thanks baraka!! I think we are already doing it at the courses of Feanor thread!!

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Camille
Thanks baraka!! I think we are already doing it at the courses of Feanor thread!!




Waht about turin??

[Tinder]

Hey Baraka, thanks for the welcome - I'm glad I'm not alone in my sympathy for Feanor!!! I think Feanor could have put up a good show against Melkor too.
As for Turin - I have sympathy for him, but I don't think all of his failings can be put down to the evils that befell him. Nor can I forgive his part in the fall of Nargothrond.

[Mormegil]

Hey, everyone leave Turin alone. He was a cool guy. He wasn't evil in any way, he was a victim of a curse put on him by the most powerful being ever to enter Arda.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Tinder
Hey Baraka, thanks for the welcome - I'm glad I'm not alone in my sympathy for Feanor!!! I think Feanor could have put up a good show against Melkor too.
As for Turin - I have sympathy for him, but I don't think all of his failings can be put down to the evils that befell him. Nor can I forgive his part in the fall of Nargothrond. Excuse me!! Exactly how is Turin's role in the fall of Nargothrond any different than Feanor's in the kin-slaying of Aqualonde? Let's call the evils what they really were, "weakness of character in both Turin and Feanor." That doesn't mean they weren't both great characters, for they were. What it does mean is that both of them, Elf and Man, had shortcomings that were necessary to develop the mythology and history of Middle-earth. No single character in Middle-earth was perfect. Imperfection that existed and exists was and is the seed stock from whence all evil begins.

And you may quote me on that!! :D

[Tinder]

'Imperfection that existed and exists was and is the seed stock from whence all evil begins.'

And you may quote me on that!! :D - Grond.

'So I shall never waste my life in a vain useless hope, seeking what cannot be, a flawless man amongst us all who feed on the fruits of the broad earth. If I find him I will bring you news.

But I praise and love every man who does nothing base from free will, against necessity even the gods do not fight.'

- Simonides

Not sure how this relates to your quote Grond - but I thought I would share it with you anyway. But I think it says something important about the actions of both heroes and men.

[baraka]

Hey Baraka, thanks for the welcome - I'm glad I'm not alone in my sympathy for Feanor!!! I think Feanor could have put up a good show against Melkor too.
No Tinder you are not alone, but we "Feanorites" are very few in these boards.

As for Feanor battling Morgoth i think it deserves a new Thread.:)

[Strangeheart]

Hello All:

I'm new here and I see that there has been an interesting debate regarding Feanor. Well, I think that he didn't show wisdom in his actions, but he wasn't weak. As Baraka wrote, he was strong-willed and somebody's strength of will doesn't have anything to do with his/her moral alignment (good or evil). For example, would you say that Dr. Doom is weak? A very bad individual, but he is also strong willed, devious, brilliant, and has his own code of honor.

being unwise doesn't equate to being weak.

My .02 cents for now:)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Welcome to the forum Strangeheart!!:) :) :D ;) ;) :cool:

[baraka]

Welcome to the forum Strangeheart

Glad to have new people with new points of view. I hope your stay is long and fruitful.:)

[Maedhros]

So do you want to learn about the Vanyar, well i can tell you that they are very boring. All they seem to do is sing and dance. In the day of the rebellion, they stood with the valar.
When they came to ME with Eonwe, they fought well and gained the silmarils. Maglor and me, challenged the whole army of the valar. They left us with the silmarils, but if they had attacked us, you bet that i would have killed a lot of Vanyar that day, before i was slain.:)

[Grond]

Sons of Feanor. All braggarts to the very end. You, however, Maedhros were the best of the lot. It was you that at the least showed some remorse for your actions and your betrayals.

I love you MAN!!

[Maedhros]

It was you that at the least showed some remorse for your actions and your betrayals.
Yes, it always pains me the betrayal with the Teleri ships. I would have send ships to gather the rest of our host, including first my friend Fingon the Valiant.:(
Grond, aren´t you the Hammer of the Underworld. If you are an inanimate object, how is it that you speak?:)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Grond, aren´t you the Hammer of the Underworld. If you are an inanimate object, how is it that you speak?:) Must be a side effect of Luthien's song to my master. Ever since then it's been like... hey man, I'm awake. Anybody wanna talk? :D

[Eonwe]

He's really an Ent, with a Troll for a head (wood, stone) :D