How come Gollum?

[Gary Gamgee]

If Smeagol was a Hobbit, how come he didn't know what Bilbo was?

"What iss he, my precious?"

[Beorn]

It is said that Gollum was of the ancestors of hobbits. Also, perhaps when Smeagol first went into the mountain there were other halflings around that were different from him.

Gollum also may have forgotten what he was...

[Harad]

I bet that Gollum BECAME a Hobbit in LOTR. See the thread

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2521

and the reference therein.

JRRT could only change so much of "The Hobbit" to make it consistent with the LOTR. I agree that Gollum should have recognized Biblo's species if he had originally been a hobbit in "The Hobbit," as he was in LOTR.

Note that only 500 years passed since Gollum went into the mountain. This is a drop in the bucket as far as "evolutionary" changes in Middle Earth.

[Gary Gamgee]

Yes Harad i agree i think that Tolkien would be at pains to explain this, as i think he didn't envisage the Lord of the Rings when he wrote the Hobbit. i know that Gollum was very old but he did remember the riddle game- a part of Hobbit culture- so why should'nt he remember what he was.

Tolkien went back to write a new book and this did not fit in.
If you see what i mean
GGG

[Harad]

G^3,
Not only what you said, but I now realize you phrased your original question in a tricksy way, since he never was "Smeagol" in "The Hobbit."

So Smeagol was a hobbit, but Gollum wasnt.

[Lord Aragorn]

This is getting into the whole 2 sides of Gollum/Smeagol in LoTR. As when Gollum is captured by Frodo and Sam and seems to be going back and forth between his good and evil sides throughout the rest of the book.

[Harad]

Naaah. Its a joke. If Smeagol is a hobbit, then Gollum should go along and be a hobbit too.

[Lord Aragorn]

This is getting into the whole 2 sides of Gollum/Smeagol in LoTR. As when Gollum is captured by Frodo and Sam and seems to be going back and forth between his good and evil sides throughout the rest of the book.

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Harad
I bet that Gollum BECAME a Hobbit in LOTR. I agree with Harad, that this is probably what happened, yet I am not sure if I agree with this statement
I agree that Gollum should have recognized Biblo's species if he had originally been a hobbit in "The Hobbit," as he was in LOTR. Note that only 500 years passed since Gollum went into the mountain. This is a drop in the bucket as far as "evolutionary" changes in Middle Earth. This depends on how well Tolkien followed the 'laws' of biology in his world. He states in a letter somewhere that some laws of biology do not apply in his world, because otherwise there could be no children born from elves and men. Thus, he may even have changed evolutionary laws (if he believed in them) as well.
Now if we believe that hobbits originated from men, then we can deduce something about how fast evolution occurs in Tolkien's world. Because men arrived at the beginning of the first age, and we know that hobbits were a separate race at least halfway through the third age (when they settled in the Shire). That means within at most 5500 years (probably less) hobbit evolved from men. I think at the current rate of evolution, 5500 years is still a drop in a bucket, but clearly men did not recognize hobbits as being of the same race. Granted 500 years is still much shorter, but to me it seems possible that hobbits evolved far away enough from gollum for him not to recognize bilbo, especially after not meeting any one of his kind for 500 years.

[Harad]

I am still waiting for "proof" of the oft-repeated statement that JRRT did not believe in evolution.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2687

Your speculation would imply that he not only believed in evolution, but in super-evolution.

[Bill the Pony]

Depends on whether you see things as hobbits evolving from men (does anyone have proof for that) or something like the lifespan of men decreasing as evolution. If so, Tolkien believed in a form of evolution (most likely one that involved God). If those are not examples of evolution, then I don't know whether he believed in it.

[Harad]

Unlike most other things, I am not an expert on "creationism" so I dont know whether it allows for any kind of evolution. If I remember my "creation science" all the species in the world were set up about 5000 years ago (real Earth) and havent changed a bit since.

There is the thread "Where did Hobbits Come From?"

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2025

but it contained subversive posts like:

hobbits come from doing the same thing over and over again. there are good hobbits and some bad hobbits..cheese is my hobbit

[Beleg Strongbow]

It was never said that smeagol was a hobbit he was a stoor. And maybe his fathers, fathers,fathers, fathers ..... was related 2 the fathers, fathers and so on of bilbo and the other hobbits it doesn't mean he was one he was a stoor and also if h new that he probably forgot about it after all those years in the dark.

[Harad]

Stoors were a variety of hobbits.

[Gary Gamgee]

yes Stoor's were a Hobbit 'race', I agree with you once more Harad.
As for the theory that gollum simply forgot what he was i don't see this as right. He remembers quite alot, like the riddle game (a part of Hobbit culture), Deagol, the river, his grandmother, how he was ridiculed and driven away and also in LOTR his 'good' side.

[Harad]

GGG,
I posted my final (maybe) answer to the question at:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2521
the "original hobbit version" thread

In a nutty shell: Gollum "knew" what Bilbo was but didnt know the name for it.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Gary Gamgee
yes Stoor's were a Hobbit 'race', I agree with you once more Harad.
As for the theory that gollum simply forgot what he was i don't see this as right. He remembers quite alot, like the riddle game (a part of Hobbit culture), Deagol, the river, his grandmother, how he was ridiculed and driven away and also in LOTR his 'good' side.




I was just sugesting that it was a possibility i didn't quite beleive it either.

[Illuvatar]

Also remember that by that time he had even forgotten his own name,:eek: so it is more than likely that he had also forgotten what he looked like before, not to mention the rest of his family and relatives.

[LegolasLuver]

From what I remember in the book. (been a while since i read them) Smeagol was a "hobbit-like creature" but not an actual hobbit. And the race of those hobbit-like creatures died out except for smeagol who became gollum.

[jallan]

That Gandalf is somewhat evasive about what to call Sméagol and Déagol Hobbits is a matter of linguistic pedantry rather than an indication that they weren’t what would be recognized in Frodo’s time as perfectly normal Stoor-type Hobbits.

From Appendix F:Hobbit was the name usually applied by the Shire-folk to all their kind. Men called them Halflings and the Elves Periannath. The origin of the word hobbit was by most forgotten. It seems, however, to have been at first a name given to the Harfoots by the Fallohides and Stoors, and to be a worn-down form of a word preserved more fully in Rohan: holbytla ‘hole-builder’.That is, the word hobbit was in former times only applied to the Harfoots.

In Unfinished Tales, “The Hunt for the Ring”:Gollum would not know the term ‘Hobbit’, which was local and not a universal Westron word. He would probably not use ‘Halfling’ since he was one himself, and hobbits disliked the name. That is why the Black Riders seem to have had two main pieces of information to go on: Shire and Baggins.From The Tale of Years:c. 1150     The Fallohides enter Eriador. The Stoors come over the Redhorn Pass and move to the Angle, or to Dunland.
c. 1300     Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree.
1356     King Argeleb I slain in battle with Rhudaur. About this time the Stoors leave the Angle, and some return to Wilderland.Those Stoors who return to Wilderland will become the ancestors of Sméagol’s people.

Gandalf says of Gollum’s folk:I guess they were of hobbit-kind; akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors, for they loved the River, and often swam in it, or made little boats of reeds.It may be that the word Stoor was also a later invention as applied to the these southern Halflings. (Old English stor simply means ‘large, strong’.) Gandalf is saying that Sméagol and his folk seem to him to have been what would at the time he was speaking be called hobbits and the same kind of hobbits as the so-called Stoors of the Shire.

Also from In Unfinished Tales, “The Hunt for the Ring”:Sauron’s fears were much allayed when he perceived from Gollum’s account that Baggins must have been a creature of the same sort.Seemingly we are to imagine that Gollum, at least after considering the matter and having learned something about Bilbo from prowling around Laketown and Dale may have recognized Bilbo as the same kind of creature he had been. Bilbo (quite reasonably) did not recognize Gollum as a Hobbit.

The met in almost pitch darkness where the only light was the faint glow of Bilbo’s sword (reflected back from Gollum’s eyes). Neither really saw the other though Gollum was likely able to see in that almost complete darkness better than was Bilbo.

[Samwise_hero]

I've always thought that Gollum was originally a hobbit like creature. He wasn't a hobbit because of the fact that he was actually interacting with water. Hobbits are horrified with water. Halflings or hobbits were not a very well known species until Bilbo went on his mission to defeat smaug even after that they managed to live in a secluded world. hence the fact that Gollum/ Smeagol didn't know what Bilbo was.
And as it was mentioned above, Gollum had almost forgotten his name and he obviously couldn't recognise what he was....

[Serenity]

He might of forgotten a lot of stuff after sitting in the mountain for a long time.

[Barliman Butterbur]

It was never said that smeagol was a hobbit he was a stoor.

"Stoor" is the surname of a clan of hobbits, not the name of a race of beings similar to hobbits.

Barley

[Hobbit-queen]

Hey, Smeogal could have been a hobbit.
Remember, there are different "breeds" of hobbits as described in The Fellowship of the Ring. Some live near and around water. I don't have my book with me, so can any one name the kinds of hobbits right now?

Always,
Hobbit-queen

[Astaldo]

There were 3 different races of Hobbits. Fallohides, Harfoot and Stoors.

Fallohides were living near the forests and had some connections with the Elves. Tooks ad Brandybucks were from the Fallohide race.

Harfoot were living near hiils and mountains and had a connection with the Dwarves.

And finally Stoosrs were the most risky of the Hobbits. They like rivers and lakes and they were the ones who builted ships.

[Astaldo]

Sorry but wherever it says rce put the word clan ;)

[spirit]

Remember, there are different "breeds" of hobbits ::Gets a really odd image in my head:: :eek:

[Barliman Butterbur]

::Gets a really odd image in my head:: :eek:

Hey, people gotta breed! And evidently they became "fruitful and multiplied" in the good old fashioned way: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides.

"Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides. The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; their hands and feet were neat and nimble; and they preferred highlands and hillsides. The Stoors were broader, heavier in build; their feet and hands were larger, and they preferred flat lands and riversides. The Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair, and they were taller and slimmer than the others; they were lovers of trees and of woodlands."

Barley