Beorn and Tom Bombadil [Merged]

[Kit Baggins]

I think it says in The Hobbit that he's a 'shape changer', but who actually is he, and who are the Beornings?

~Kit :confused:

[Harad]

There is only one mention in passing of Beorn in LOTR. I guess he was a one-of-a-kind character invented for the "children's story" who didnt fit into the LOTR universe. Was he a Man, Maia, etc? He seems to be more than a Man but less than a Maia, with regards to his powers.

[Beorn]

Beorn was a man...

From The Letters of JRRT. Letter # 144

Beorn is dead; see vol. I p. 241...Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.

[Harad]

Well there you go. The authoritative answer. A man that could turn into a bear. Kinda changes your idea of a "man," now don't it?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Harad
Well there you go. The authoritative answer. A man that could turn into a bear. Kinda changes your idea of a "man," now don't it?



He was supposed to come from the mountains? Could he have just been another cteature of Iluvatar? Remember his decendants could change shape 2.

[Elbereth]

Kit, you got me thinking....WHO ARE THE BEORNINGS?...Are they decendent of Beorn, or is Beorn a Beorning, or are they people who live in the valley between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood forest?.....I'm so confused

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Elbereth
Kit, you got me thinking....WHO ARE THE BEORNINGS?...Are they decendent of Beorn, or is Beorn a Beorning, or are they people who live in the valley between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood forest?.....I'm so confused




To Elebreth i'm sure that the beornings are decendant's of Beorn. That's why they called beornings they lived near were beorn lived and kept the pass form erebor 2 rivendell open. They were not as big or scary as beorn thoough.

[ssgrif]

I've just finished reading the Hobbit, and came to a revalation afterwards about the similarities between Beorn and Tom Bombadil.

The similarity between the two is a simple one, that they are both very much mysterious characters in their respective tales.

I was thinking that maybe Tolkien had a standard set of character templates (1 good, 1 bad, 1 mysterious etc) he used for his stories?

Has anyone else thought of this concept?

I would love to hear other peoples views on this...

"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

[ssgrif]

Beorn was:

"The skin-changer who dwelt in the Vales of Anduin near the western eaves of Mirkwood, who could take the form of a Man or a huge black bear. He played a great part in the victory over the Goblins at the Battle of Five Armies. "

"The descendants of Beorn, who dwelt in the Vales of Anduin between Mirkwood and the Great River, and who for many generations retained their ancestor's ability to ake the shape of a bear. "

One thing to also note here is that he (and his descendants) we of the race of men.

[GladrielElf1985]

I have not actually thought about this in this sense, but now that it is brought to my attention, I must say, good question. I moreorless think that the similarities between characters in the two stories was not planned, but can be attributed to Tolkien's unique writing style and the fact that all characters are living in the same time and place. There are bound to be simililar characters just as there are in real life. I would personally like to think that Beorn and Bombadil are in some way distant cousins. It helps me to rationalize how they are both so eccentric. But thats just me:rolleyes:

[Beleg Strongbow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GladrielElf1985
I have not actually thought about this in this sense, but now that it is brought to my attention, I must say, good question. I moreorless think that the similarities between characters in the two stories was not planned, but can be attributed to Tolkien's unique writing style and the fact that all characters are living in the same time and place. There are bound to be simililar characters just as there are in real life. I would personally like to think that Beorn and Bombadil are in some way distant cousins. It helps me to rationalize how they are both so eccentric. But thats just me:rolleyes: [/QUOT




I don't beleive they are cousins i think they are not related in any way but are both just masters of themselves and don't speak to many people and keep to themselves. They serve no man but themselves and a part from that are completley different. Tom's supposedley a maia and beorn is maybe a decendants of beats that used to hunt with orome? OR his he a maia as well?

[ssgrif]

Beorn was of the race of Men.

[7doubles]

Beorn is more like treebeard in treatment.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by ssgrif
Beorn was of the race of Men.



Well i think you could be right but that doesn't explain the being able 2 change into a bear though does it? But it does explain his siblings.

[Lord Aragorn]

I believe he died after The Hobbit, and his son was leading his people. So, I think that makes him mortal, equaling a man not a maia.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Lord Aragorn
I believe he died after The Hobbit, and his son was leading his people. So, I think that makes him mortal, equaling a man not a maia.


Yes i think he did. But maybe it was his form like sauron and not his spirit.

[Hirila]

Aren`t they descendants of Beor the Old ?(Great-great-great...grandfather to Beren)

Could be! I mean: didn`t Beren take the skin of Draugluin the beast Huan slew. And didn`t Beren take the form of that beast when he pulled the skin over?

I think the beornings are from a sideline of this family tree.

[7doubles]

sauroman was killed that did not make him man how do you know beorn did not go to vefintar mandos?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by 7doubles
sauroman was killed that did not make him man how do you know beorn did not go to vefintar mandos?


That's right:D :D ;)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Hirila
Aren`t they descendants of Beor the Old ?(Great-great-great...grandfather to Beren)

Could be! I mean: didn`t Beren take the skin of Draugluin the beast Huan slew. And didn`t Beren take the form of that beast when he pulled the skin over?

I think the beornings are from a sideline of this family tree.


they could be?

[Glory]

I thiunk beorn was half human or something like that... tom was like some kind of mystical being he could be called witha song ...and he could speak to trees so he probalbly was something like Nature or something like that. Remember he was married with the daughter of the river.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

No, the only true decendents of the house of Beor were Elrond and Elros, and Elrond had three children (Elladan, Elrohir, Arwen) and the decendents of Elros were the Dunedain, of whom Elessar Elfstone was accounted as the last.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by ¤-Elessar-¤
No, the only true decendents of the house of Beor were Elrond and Elros, and Elrond had three children (Elladan, Elrohir, Arwen) and the decendents of Elros were the Dunedain, of whom Elessar Elfstone was accounted as the last.



Yeah is suppose eh.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Glory
I thiunk beorn was half human or something like that... tom was like some kind of mystical being he could be called witha song ...and he could speak to trees so he probalbly was something like Nature or something like that. Remember he was married with the daughter of the river.


There are quite a few things about bombadil that relate 2 eru.
They both control things by song.
They were both the first
They are both nice and good hearted and can tell some stuff about the future (weather) and the ring had no hold over him as he was his "own" master. Could Tom be Iluvatar? Maybe keeping watch on a M.E? Or if not maybe a maia or lost vala? They can control stuff by music Melkor ruining Iluvatar's song and they were the first being's alive?
But who knows eh???

[Úlairi]

Beorn is believed to be of the house of Beor, which right back to then they could change into bears!!! People belived the the descendants of the house of Beor were great magicains! Tom is a enigma, there have been countless threads on him. In fact, I am going to post one on him as well. I will present my theory on Tom in the Lord of the Rings forum, so keep your eyes open!!!

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ulairi
Beorn is believed to be of the house of Beor, which right back to then they could change into bears!!! People belived the the descendants of the house of Beor were great magicains! Tom is a enigma, there have been countless threads on him. In fact, I am going to post one on him as well. I will present my theory on Tom in the Lord of the Rings forum, so keep your eyes open!!!



Yes that is the most logical way of putting it.

[Úlairi]

:D :D :D Beorn was a man that could simply change into a bear. He was a great magician. Beorn was believed to be of the House of Beor (mentioned in the Sil) and Beor and all of his decendants could also change into bears! The Beornings were Beorn's children!:D :D :D

[Chymaera]

Beorn seems to be one of those charactor annomalies that Tolkien in his stories; like Bombadil, Stone Giants, Uruk-hai, and Shelob.
They are put in to move the story along and then they are dropped.
Beorn is a Were-bear (and a vegan besides), for a mortal man this should not be mention as a matter of course without further mention or explaination of how this came to pass.

[tom_bombadil]

You may or may not know but bombadill was a charecther tolkien had based on himself or so im told. as some one said earlier that bombadill may be Iluvatar keeping an eye on Middle earth. But how Iluvatar if he was keeping an eye on middle earth would keep an eye on the whole thing not just set borders as bombadill has. Bombadill will not step out of his borders. And how can he be a valar because the valars have a master but bombadill is his own master so there for it makes no sense. he cannot be a maiar either because as we know sauron was a maiar. and the ring had an effect on sauron but not on tom. Tom is most likely just a force that was placed in Middle Earth to guard a part of it from danger. because as we see on the border of mirkwood we have a guardian who knows a lot about it. Watever they are beyond understanding!

[pippin le qer]

Tom Bombadil probably is the essence of MiddleEarth, that was left after the ordering and organising by Valar, unpoluted by the influence of Melkor, that became his own being inso a personification of Tolkien's creativity that stayed raw and didn't result in a story or tale, but was still active till the last day of his life.
Tom Bombadil will never fit into a catagory

[Ancalagon]

You may find more information on Beorn here http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3757

[Úlairi]

Yes, Ancalagon and I were having quite the debate.

[Beleg Strongbow]

I see you did

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Beorn evidently was a shapeshifter, that much is said in the Hobbit. Now the only other shapehifter I know of Radagast the Brown; are there any others? And beacuse Beorn can turn into a bear, does that mean he is a Maia?

[Mablung]

I don't believe he lived longer than a normal man making it unlikely he is a Maia.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Well then, how do you explain the shapeshifting?:confused: Tolkien left some mysteries with his books, no?

BTW, Beorn was a HUGE guy right?

100th post!

[Meklos]

Tolkien stated in letter 144 (sorry don't have the whole quote with me) that his lifespan wasn't any longer than a regular man, and that "although a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man".

Also, lots of things mentioned in the Hobbit aren't found anywhere else in his writing, like Giants in the Misty Mountains and wereworms in the Last Desert(?). I've always wondered about Beorn too, though.

[Beorn]

Beorn is dead; see vol. I p. 241. He appeared in The Hobbit. It was then the year Third Age 2940 (Shire-reckoning 1340). We are now in the years 3018-19 (1418-19). Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.

I'm dead :(

[Wolfshead]

Radagast was a shape shifter? I didn't know that, are you sure?

[Aglarthalion]

*checks Radagast's entry in Return of the King*

*checks reference in The Fellowship of the Ring*

Quote, from The Council of Elrond:

"...Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends." - Gandalf

From this quote (and other evidence I won't detail here), I'd say that this would lead most people to rightly believe that Radagast was indeed a shape-shifter.

Beorn was a Man. As Beorn (this is getting a little confusing ;)) posted, Tolkien clearly states in Letter 144 that though Beorn was a skin changer and magician, there is no doubt he is a Man.

EDIT: Just checked the link Nóm provided. Interesting debate; I would have liked to have been around all those months ago to participate, but now I have nothing to add. ;) It clears up most questions (I should think) about shape-shifters, and the ability to shape-shift. Excellent thread. :)

[Wolfshead]

Ah, so Radagast was a shape-shifter. Then that brings the question, why did he ride around looking for Gandalf when he could have flown and made his journey a lot quicker? :rolleyes:

About Beorn, I'm going to spoil the discussion by posting some facts about him from The Encyplopedia Of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda).
Notes

1 Tolkien makes it clear in his letters that Beorn's lifespan was no greater than that of an ordinary Man. It's very unlikely, then, that he survived much beyond III 3000. (see The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954).

2 In the same letter referred to in Note 1, Tolkien explains that despite his remarkable abilities, Beorn definitely belonged to the race of Men: 'Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man'.

3 The etymology of Beorn's name is interesting. The Old English word originally meant 'bear', but evolved over the centuries to the point where it came to mean 'warrior'. So, Beorn's ability to transform from a bear to a man echoes the linguistic development of his name.
The original meaning of Beorn relates to the bear's love of honey, and contains béo, meaning 'bee'. This also appears in the name Beowulf: like Beorn, this means 'bear', but is literally 'bee-wolf'. This bee connection explains the references in The Hobbit to Beorn's bee-pastures and huge bees: 'The drones were bigger than your thumb, a good deal, and the bands of yellow on their deep black bodies shone like fiery gold' (The Hobbit 7, Queer Lodgings).
I bet no one would have spotted that by themselves ;)

[reem]

i reached the part when Gandalf is taking bilbo and the dwarves to see beorn. who is beorn?? i mean, what info can you give me other than what was already given in the following pages in the Hobbit?
and skin-changer just means changing his shape froom human to animal and vice-versa, right??
excuse any stupid questions:p
reem

[Kahmûl]

Beorn is a distant blood relation to Beron who could change into orcs and wolfs so i guess that Beorn got some of his power and then Beorns son Grimbeorn would probably get it as well!

[Eye'r'oof]

Well...
Beorn was a man. Where is he in the LOTR?
He easy could live this much long. About the ethymology - this is an interesting question. Never thought about bee in this word. Probably because I'm from russia and think more about my language :)
We also have the word meaning a bear build like "who knows where is the honey" The same. And in swedish the word Bjorn means bear also.

[FoolOfATook]

I'm not convinced from the phrase "master of shapes and changes of hue" that Radagast was a Skin-changer. It could very easily be taken to mean that Radagast has a talent for "disguising" himself, sort of like when Aragorn tells Frodo that he can avoid being seen, only more so for the brown wizard. It seems to me that something as drastic as an Istari being able to change shapes ala Beorn- something like that Tolkien would at least refer to elsewhere.