Deviant Behavior in The Two Towers

[Harad]

There were deviations in the "Fellowship of the Ring" from the book. We have heard all about them in the past 2 months--Arwen, Saruman's storm, all the rest.

In The Two Towers there may be even more deviations--see Helm's Deep, etc.--according to some quotes (Peter Jackson among them?)

I purposely have avoided reading about changes so that I will be surprised when I see them. Also you never know if what you read about, see in stills, or even in trailers, will end up in the film.

The question is: Will you be happy to see and be surprised by new material as long as it is in the spirit of "Lord of the Rings"? After the experience of FOTR, this question should be easier to answer.

My answer is that its the best of both worlds to get something which you like and is familiar, AND to get new stuff (as long as it fits in) that you were not expecting.

[Tar-Palantir]

Given the fact that most seem to expect more changes in TTT from the book to the movie, I think the biggest suprise that PJ could lay on us would be to tailor the movie exactly like the book.

I, too, have tried to avoid reading about the supposed changes in the upcoming movies. But it's hard, because they seem to pop up in the middle of threads sometimes.

It's hard to say whether I'd mind any or all changes til I see the film. I loved the first movie, even though I thought some of the changes PJ made were unnecessary. I expect I'll feel the same about the next installment.

[Bill the Pony]

:D Harad is trying to start a BIG discussion again. Sorry, not purist enough to give you much, but I'm sure there will be more strong opinions coming up soon.

Ok, I'm sure on first viewing I won't like the changes. Just like with FOTR it will take a second viewing to get over the 'oh, you can't do that!' feeling. Even after the second viewing, I still felt I would have liked the movie better had it stayed closer to the 'feeling' of the book. For me, the book is the best book I've read so far, but the movie (FOTR) is certainly not the best movie I've seen. The same will probably be true for TT & ROTK. But I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and find out next year.

[JoS Metadi]

Of course there will be changes. For the exact same reason there were changes in FotR. But if PJ can do as well with TTT and he did with FotR, I will be very happy again.

So far, LotR is the best book to film adaptation I have ever seen. Probably the only movie that stayed closer to it's book was the 6 hour version of Pride and Prejudice. And that was 6 hours of NO action, where as PJ managed to successfully condense a book jam packed with action and history into a 3 hour movie.

I am actually getting my hopes up about TTT. Something I was not willing to do with FotR until the rave reviews started rolling in.

JoS

[Harad]

Not me, no "big discussions." Just tiny little chats betweens internetizens.

I agree that LOTR:FOTR is not the best movie I ever saw, across all genres. But in the fantasy genre, I dont think anything comes close. As far as the best book I ever read...LOTR is up there, but there are so many.

Unfortunately, I cant even answer my own question about FOTR because like Tar-Pal says I couldnt avoid learning about, e.g. the Arwen change. For goodness sakes, she was a main part of the trailer!

I want to be PLEASANTLY surprised by TTT and like JoS says, I am already getting revved up.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by JoS Metadi
So far, LotR is the best book to film adaptation I have ever seen. Probably the only movie that stayed closer to it's book was the 6 hour version of Pride and Prejudice.


Agreement on the 6 hour P&P, that was a great show!! But the first comment??? Oh my goodness!!! :confused: The Green Mile, Misery, The Rainmaker, Harry Potter and many more stayed way more true to the book then FoTR!


Harad, I unlike you don't want to be "pleasantly suprised" by the changes because I know that I will not be so. I want to know well ahead of time what distortion and unnecessary changes are being made. As it was, I could barely take the Arwen scene and I knew about it and was prepared for it....It was all I could do to scream out NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! It was ten times worse then I thought it would be...

Can you imagine if I would have had no clue what was gonna happen? They would have had to do CPR on me! I know that would have spoiled the rest of my movie experience. As bad as it was, I put it behind me and could watch the rest of the show...Only to be bothered by many other unnecessary changes.

[JoS Metadi]

Originally posted by Thorin
Agreement on the 6 hour P&P, that was a great show!! But the first comment??? Oh my goodness!!! :confused: The Green Mile, Misery, The Rainmaker, Harry Potter and many more stayed way more true to the book then FoTR!

I haven't seen any of those. I would like to see the Green Mile some time.

JoS

[daisy]

I am not too happy about a certain someone showing up with something at a certain place - this is all I will say - in the TT. This irritates me because it just so gratuitous and un-necessary. I can think of certain things that would really annoy me - like no ents, or no cool Shadowfax, or bad orc comic relief.... but I can love the book and appreciate the film. I am also heartened by the fact that the films were all made at the same time. I think this is our best chance at getting three films in a row that are good, because to the actors, they were all one big movie...so we'll see. I can't believe it is about nine months away.Okay, maybe ten....
daisy the " why is that person doing that thing there? vague violet:)

[Grond]

I will be satisfied as long as the character flow is consistent with the book. I don't think it appropriate for Arwen and Eowyn to meet until RotK. That would add a new dynamic to the equation that does not exist in the book. I also hope that the Eowyn/Aragorn dynamic is kept as it was portrayed in the book. The development of Eowyn due to her abandonment to Wormtongue and then her perceived spurning by Aragorn are the main catalysts that makes her go blindly into battle in the first place. I hope that PJ is able to portray those types of things.

I am also exactly the opposite from Thorin concerning the changes. I want to know nothing. I want to see the second movie from a totally ignorant standpoint. Viewing it that way will give me a much better perspective on the true effects of the changes. If I sulk over them for six months prior to seeing the movie, there is no way I will be able to fairly judge them.

All in all, I have high aspirations for the TT. For one thing, PJ has heard from all of us through forums just like this one, what will be expected. I honestly feel he cares what all of us think and is already modifying the TT to more clearly reflect the book. (eg. Arwen's Helm's Deep battle scenes are apparently on the cutting room floor). And I should note that one tidbit is the only thing I have accidentally seen on the TT. :)

[Mormegil]

When I watched FOTR, I did not find that the changes destroyed the movie. I could see why PJ made the changes from a movie poiunt of view
eg. Get rid of Tom Bombadil because he would just confuse people who hadn't read the book. Replace Glorfindel with Arwen because Liv Tyler needs a bigger part and Glorfindel only appears briefly. Saruman starts the storm on Caradhras to make him the main badguy for this movie.

Of course the dialogue was a bit corny in places, "If you want him, come and claim him!", "Nobody tosses a Dwarf", and "Lets hunt some Orc". But what did you expect, It's a movie.

As I said, I can accept the changes made to FOTR because I can understand the reasoning behind them. Also the changes did not detract from the overall storyline. They were minor things in the context of the big picture.

From my point of view PJ is quite welcome to continue to make minor changes to TTT and ROTK, as long as the changes do not detract from the overall storyline.

I am aperson who can enjoy the movie on it's own merits:)

[Greenwood]

Quote by Thorin
Can you imagine if I would have had no clue what was gonna happen? They would have had to do CPR on me! I know that would have spoiled the rest of my movie experience. As bad as it was, I put it behind me and could watch the rest of the show...Only to be bothered by many other unnecessary changes.

I have heard a rumor that PJ is so miffed by Thorin's constant assaults that he is preparing a special print of TTT to be shown in Thorin's local theater when Thorin goes to see the movie. In it Gandalf is resurrected as Arwen's clone who is then flown by Gwahir to Barud-dur where she challenges Sauron to single combat and vanquishes him. PJ figures that even if there is an entire emergency medical team on hand, Thorin will not survive the shock. :) :eek:

[Thorin]

'snicker'

And Greenwood, Harad and markrob will be there high-fiving PJ as Thorin is carried out on a stretcher after being pronounced dead...

[Mayberry]

Originally posted by Grond
All in all, I have high aspirations for the TT. For one thing, PJ has heard from all of us through forums just like this one, what will be expected. I honestly feel he cares what all of us think and is already modifying the TT to more clearly reflect the book. (eg. Arwen's Helm's Deep battle scenes are apparently on the cutting room floor). And I should note that one tidbit is the only thing I have accidentally seen on the TT. :)

I hope that you are right about Arwen's Helm's Deep battle scenes being on the cutting room floor. That way Eowyn's shield maiden glory won't be upstaged by another warrior woman! I also hope that Eowyn's infatuation with Aragorn and her decision to go into battle will not be misplaced in the upcoming sequel.

My major gripe about Arwen is that I am afraid the filmakers may be trying to meld Eowyn's and Arwen's characters somewhat due to expediency or, worse, political correctness. Why is it that a female character today can no longer be considered relevant if she acts feminine and soft?! Maybe the filmakers think two warrior women are better than one.

[Harad]

My major gripe about Arwen is that I am afraid the filmakers may be trying to meld Eowyn's and Arwen's characters somewhat due to expediency or, worse, political correctness.

I dont see this happening or happened. The New Arwen is a composite of Glorfindel and the Unseen Arwen of the Book. But in fact, she does not do warlike things in the Glorfindel tradition. She is a healer and she tricks the Nazgul into the Bruinen, as opposed to driving them in a la Glorfindel. She was a warrior-maiden in FOTR, only in the sense that anybody traveling in those dangerous times had to be prepared for self-defense.

Since Eowyn is a character developed both in the book and we hope in TTT, there is no sensible reason to combine elements of Eowyn into Arwen. Quite the opposite: best to contrast them.

[Grond]

Harad, this is starting to really scare me. I find yet another of your posts that I totally concur with. :)

[Mayberry]

Thanks for reminding me about Glorfindel's actions morphing into Arwen in the film version, Harad. I sometimes forget about Glorfindel who appears in FOTR and at the very end of ROTK. In TTT film, I can deal with Arwen bringing the sword and banner to Aragorn in person, however, I would be a little annoyed to see her slicing off Orc heads, left and right, at Helm's Deep. (Now, as for Arwen's brothers, that would be in keeping with their characters.)

I am still optimistic that the film TTT does justice to Eowyn's character. (Of course, I have weird visions of Eowyn being morphed into Prince Imrahil, who doesn't appear to be part of the trilogy a la Glorfindel.) I know, I know, I'm being way too paranoid and silly, here. I guess that I spent too much time over on some other threads full of movie-bashers who found fault with something that they proudly proclaimed never to have seen!!!

Seriously, I enjoyed Jackson's FOTR and am looking forward to the December release of TTT. :)

[Harad]

We all owe PJ a debt of gratitude for deviating from the book. What % of the additional posts and posters that this forum has gotten are directed for and against his "inventions."

For TTT I am torn. I dont want to hear what the changes are going to be. I dont blame anybody for posting them. I blame myself for reading them.

[PRH]

Do you want warnings? The webmaster and moderators seem indifferent toward making a spoiler policy.

[Grond]

PRH, If you'll come up with one that could possible be enforcible, I would listen, but there are only five of us and the number of posts made each day is staggering.

[Harad]

I dont need protection. I am just a minority on this (as usual).

People are always complaining that trailers give away too much of the movie. Here you guys are trying to find out everything about the movie ahead of time. Why?

[Grond]

Actually I've already stated that I would prefer to know as little as possible about the next film. Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen since I'm a moderator of the Movie Forum. If a spoiler is listed here, I have to see it. :(

[Harad]

I would bet that in most other circumstances even the same people reading and discovering spoilers would be p-o-ed if someone told them the new and interesting parts of a movie they were going to see. Something about Tolkien makes this normal movie-going instinct go awry.

[PRH]

Originally posted by Grond
PRH, If you'll come up with one that could possible be enforcible, I would listen, but there are only five of us and the number of posts made each day is staggering.
I've suggested before - ditch the "JRRT's LOTR vs. New Line LOTR" forum in favor of a "spoiler free TTT and ROTK" forum. That "JRRT vs NLC" forum hardly gets any use as it is. You wouldn't need to heavily enforce the rule, it just provides a separate place for folks who want to be considerate. Now, it's just all intermingled. You can state that the rule will not be heavily enforced and we can bully each other for posting spoilers in the non-spoiler forum.

I really hate spoilers in most movies but this one seems different somehow. I know how everything is supposed to go from the books, and I want to know the major plot changes and be prepared for them. I don't want detailed scene descriptions or things of that sort.

[LOTR-george]

You people see the movie from the reader's perspective. I havent read the books yet(but will soon) and i find FOTR simply the best movie i have ever seen in my life (that is 13 years). Not comparing it to the book the movie is awesome. Mabye if i had read the books before i saw the film i might think it wasnt cool and that PJ should of done it like in the book. And i wanna ask you people some questions:
Who is shelob in the moovie?
Whye are people so exiting to see gollum in TTT?
What is the helm deep battle(sorry if i spelld it wrong)?

AND IF YOUR ANWSER IS "READ THE BOOK" DONT POST IT HERE!@!

[Grond]

LOTR-george,

READ THE BOOK!!!

and Welcome to our forum. :)

[LOTR-george]

Hmmm... i saerched ofr shelob in the index on the third book but i couldnt find it...plz anwser the questions@!@

[Strider97]

I hope you don't mind spoilers. But you asked for the information.

Shelob is the bad spider who bites off Frodo's head at the end of the TT but repents and helps Sam to Mt. Doom only to bite off Sam's finger that is wearing the ring. She then falls into the chasm destroying the ring.

Gollum is the evil Hobbit that chases Sam and Frodo into Mordor until he is captured by Faramir and tortured. He is then sent to Gondor as a slave to serve their new Queen Eowyn.

Helm's Deep is the first major battle of the war of the ring. It pits Aragorn and his warrior queen Arwen against the riders of Rohan and the evil ents who are bent on destroying the tower of Isengard. Aragorn and the rest of the fellowship are thrown back onto the Path of the Dead where they meet a resurrected Gandalf the Black who has returned to help Aragorn and Arwen depose the good king and queen Faramir and Eowyn from the throne of Gondor and claim all of ME for their purposes.

Enjoy the book, Strider.

[son of bilbo]

Wow............................................... ........I couldn't have said it any better.....................except that Shelob isn't even a character in the book. Sorry guys......but I read all three books at least three times and there was no mention whatsoever of Shelob in any book. I think PJ made it up. Silly PJ.

[Strider97]

Son of Bilbo (Can't use your initials can we)

Don't pull his leg about Shelob- You know she is there at the end. I know its April 1 but be nice to Lotr-George. Thanks, strider97

[Grond]

Oh my!! You guys are hilarious. I am literally rolling on the floor. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!:D :D :D :D

[Goldberry]

LOTR-george,
Shelob is a very LARGE mean nasty spider, but almost everything else in the posts here are pulling your leg on April 1 (sorry to spoil your fun Strider97 and son of bilbo). I'll try to answer without giving away too much of the story.

Shelob does something nasty to Frodo that has an impact on the quest. They will meet her on their way into Mordor.

Gollum is very important in Frodo's quest. Remember what Gandalf said in FOTR? "...he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many--yours not least." Gollum is also a VERY rich, complex character. I'm not sure how he will come across on screen, but in the Hobbit and LOTR, the chapters with him are some of the most enjoyable.

Helm's Deep (a fortress in Rohan)is the site of the first major battle of the War of the Ring. Aragorn fights there, with Gimli & Legolas, and the men of Rohan and their king, and it is very memorable. You will see Aragorn begin to take shape as the King in TTT and RoTK. His personal journey is a wonderful part of the story.

[Grond]

Goldberry,

Personal Foul!! Offsides!! Delay of Game!! Roughing the Passer!! Illegal Formation!! Penalty! Penalty! Penalty!

You can't go givin' the good stuff up. Make him earn it the old fashioned way. Make him read it!! ;)

[Strider97]

Excellent Call Grond-

Goldberry please I loved your character. Go play with Tom and the ponies. The fun was only half in jest for the holidays. They need to read the story. :p :p ;)

[Mithiril]

As far as reading spoilers and watching the trailer, I must confess I can't stop myself. I was so prepared to hate the first movie for any changes or deviations from the book and was very conflicted when I ended up loving the movie despite everything. I still have problems with some of the changes that I feel do not reflect characters as Tolkien wrote them, but I love the film. I dread any changes to the next one too, but I actually feel reassured after seeing the trailer that a lot of it is as I pictured. There are parts I wouldn't want changed, that I have pictured in my head for years, and there they were on screen.

Aragorn picking up the elven brooch, Eowyn beautiful and desperate. Helms Deep in all of its grim glory. The milisecond view of Treebeard was disturbing, his eye seemed all wrong, but I can stay openminded, I hope. I guess that is what it all gets down to. I can lurk here like I did the first time and read the frenzy as we get closer to the opening, but it all comes down to how I feel as I sit in the theater and experience the film for myself.

[stevehope]

I have a few questions about some things which people have referred to without directly describing (REQUESTS FOR SPOILERS--STOP READING IF YOU WANT TO BE A "PJ'S TTT VIRGIN"):

1. So the buzz is that Arwen comes to HD or Edoras or somewhere in Aragorn's journey to bring him Anduril and his banner? That would be good compensation for not getting anything about Anduril in the first movie.

2. Grond--Is it true that Arwen-at-HD scenes have supposedly been cut out of TTT? How sure are you? That was one of the few changes that was really going to annoy me.

3. Are we sure Imrahil isn't in the trilogy, as someone said? I'd be disappointed (I re-read the books recently and had forgotten how powerful a presence Imrahil was--now I'm excited to see him). He doesn't actually make an appearance until the last book does he, when he arrives with Aragorn? So isn't it possible he'll appear in ROTK? Or is the word out that he wasn't cast?

Thanks!

[Thorin]

Originally posted by stevehope
Is it true that Arwen-at-HD scenes have supposedly been cut out of TTT? How sure are you? That was one of the few changes that was really going to annoy me.

I have heard that PJ filmed Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep, but that they weren't putting those scenes into the movie....Somehow, I don't believe that. That has bothered me as well, and I don't approve of her getting involved in where she doesn't belong, bringing Anduril to Aragorn, never mind swinging a sword at orcs...

Arwen is getting so far away from Tolkien's Arwen that it isn't even amusing anymore....God only knows what PJ has in store for Arwen for RoTK...Probably holding Aragorn's sword as he goes through the Paths of the Dead.....

[stevehope]

She carries Frodo through Shelob's lair, then as Shelob scuttles after them turns and says, "If you want him, come and claim him!"

(Hoping that turned Thorin an interesting shade of purple...)

[LOTR-george]

Thanx for the anwsers evreyone. Too bad PJ isnt gonna include shelob in the two towers. In the meantime i found some footage from the helms deep battle ;)
http://www.trailersworld.com/trailers/ttt_preview.mpeg
:rolleyes: :D :D :p

[Grond]

Originally posted by stevehope
I have a few questions about some things which people have referred to without directly describing (REQUESTS FOR SPOILERS--STOP READING IF YOU WANT TO BE A "PJ'S TTT VIRGIN"):

1. So the buzz is that Arwen comes to HD or Edoras or somewhere in Aragorn's journey to bring him Anduril and his banner? That would be good compensation for not getting anything about Anduril in the first movie.

2. Grond--Is it true that Arwen-at-HD scenes have supposedly been cut out of TTT? How sure are you? That was one of the few changes that was really going to annoy me.

3. Are we sure Imrahil isn't in the trilogy, as someone said? I'd be disappointed (I re-read the books recently and had forgotten how powerful a presence Imrahil was--now I'm excited to see him). He doesn't actually make an appearance until the last book does he, when he arrives with Aragorn? So isn't it possible he'll appear in ROTK? Or is the word out that he wasn't cast?

Thanks! Indeed, 1) Arwen will bring Aragorn's banner and Anduril to him at Helm's Deep. She will then stay in Rohan with another nonTolkien female character whose name I forget. 2) Arwen had several fight scenes at HD and PJ will not show them. His excuse is that Liv didn't look very effective as a fighter and he chose to delete those scenes in editing. 3) I am 99% sure that there will not be an Imrahil. From what I hear, PJ was afraid that with a Eomer, Denethor, Faramir and Aragorn... Imrahil would add a character that would be difficult for the audience to understand. I also note that his flag is not seen in any of the posted flags. I've seen the Horse Banners of Rohan and the White Tree for Gondor and the White Tree with Stars, etc for Aragorn but no Swan Banner for Imrahil. I am not absolutely sure on any item I've currently posted, but I am reasonably sure. :)

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Grond
3) I am 99% sure that there will not be an Imrahil. From what I hear, PJ was afraid that with a Eomer, Denethor, Faramir and Aragorn... Imrahil would add a character that would be difficult for the audience to understand.

I truly would hope that if PJ would eliminate Glorfindel because he was a "weak" character (in Harad's words), and replace him with the Arwen travesty, he would also eliminate Imrahil....I still can't understand why some people would have no problems with the elimination of Glorfindel, yet mourn the loss of Imrahil...:confused:

[DGoeij]

Booohooohoooo.:( After good old Tom I do not get to see Imrahil as well? The prince of Dol Amroth, riding forth in the rally from Minas Tirith?
Worst thing is, I even somewhat understand the reason, a movie being a movie, one cannot go on introducing character after character. But I still don't like it.:(

EDIT: I wanted to have seen Glorfindel scaring the Nazgul into the water.;)

[son of bilbo]

That would have been cool. But I liked the Arwen thing too.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Thorin
I truly would hope that if PJ would eliminate Glorfindel because he was a "weak" character (in Harad's words), and replace him with the Arwen travesty, he would also eliminate Imrahil....I still can't understand why some people would have no problems with the elimination of Glorfindel, yet mourn the loss of Imrahil...:confused: I don't mourn the loss of Imrahil. He was a very unimportant character in the book. It was his kinship to both Aragorn and Galadriel that made his character interesting, but one wouldn't have learned of that by reading the LotR anyway.

Neither do I mourn the absence of Glorfindel in the movie either. I do (as I've said too many times to count) hate that PJ added the Arwen character and consolidated the actions of so many other characters within her. That was the travesty of which you speak Thorin. I could have cared less if both Glorfindel and Imrahil were eliminated as long as the "major characterizations" weren't messed with... but they already have been and that, I'm sure, will continue.

Thorin, the post of mine you "quoted" was made simply as an answer to a question and not my opinion on the subject.

[Thorin]

O Great Hammer,

I only quoted you because of the statement about Imrahil being cut from the movie...I in no way tried to imply that you were mourning such a loss....Others have (and will) and yet there is such a complacency over Glorfindel's character being over-run and revamped by Arwen, sorry for lumping that together and giving the wrong impression.....

Peace...:)

[Grond]

Oh great Dwarf-king, my post was not made in anger, simply to clarify my position. You and I are of like minds on this one. I don't miss Glorfindel nor will I miss Imrahil but... I still see no reason for their removal. The story would have flowed just as well and Arwen could have been given more depth and detail as was done with the love scene in Imladris.

Peace, indeed... we have never been at odds. ;)

[son of bilbo]

So if Imrahil and his men aren't in the RoTK..............then are they going to put more of Rohan or Gondor's men? Fewer bad guys?

[son of bilbo]

Someone please fill me in.:)