Manwe and Melkor: Power

[dgoof911]

Is Melkor more powerful then Manwe? I am about half done with the Sil and I was wondering. Eru created Melkor as the Top Ainur, but Melkor turned evil, and Manwe was supposed to be the most powerful, now was Melkor more powerful than Manwe ( I also beleive they were brothers), or was Manwe more powerful than Melkor?

[baraka]

I would have to say that Melkor in the beginning was the most powerful. It is said that when he turned to evil, he gived some of it´s power to his creations.

I think that Lord Melkor can answer this better than anyone.

[dgoof911]

Hehe, IM sure he can too...(expects him to answer)

[Telchar]

Melkor was Manwe's brother in the mind of Ilúvatar. But Melkor is usually reffered to as the most powerful. The differenc between Melkor and Manwe is that Melkor used his powers in a different way than all the other Valar.

The Power of a Vala is finite(sp?). And during the first age Melkor used his power to contol his forces. In this way Melkor bound some of his Power to other beeings, he wasted his power on controling other beeings. In this he deminished his power as time went, and after the War of Wrath, when he faced Manwe for the last time, Melkor was not as powerful as he once was.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Telchar
Melkor was Manwe's brother in the mind of Ilúvatar. But Melkor is usually reffered to as the most powerful. The differenc between Melkor and Manwe is that Melkor used his powers in a different way than all the other Valar.

The Power of a Vala is finite(sp?). And during the first age Melkor used his power to contol his forces. In this way Melkor bound some of his Power to other beeings, he wasted his power on controling other beeings. In this he deminished his power as time went, and after the War of Wrath, when he faced Manwe for the last time, Melkor was not as powerful as he once was.



Thats right apart from that Melkor faced tulkas in the war of wrath and manwe didn't go his herald maia Eonwe did.

[Ståle]

Hmm...would that mean Aulë too would become less powerful as he gave "power" into the Dwarves? And Yavanna to Laurelin and Telperion?

[Thorondor]

Originally posted by Ståle
Hmm...would that mean Aulë too would become less powerful as he gave "power" into the Dwarves? And Yavanna to Laurelin and Telperion?

Hummm. . .Yavanna did say that she couldn't be able to create the Two trees again. Humm. . . :confused:

[dgoof911]

Maybe Yavanna some of her power into the trees, therefore, when Ungoliant killed them, some of her was killed. Much like Sauron put his power into the ring to beable to rule all. Sauron followed the path of his Master Morgoth.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by dgoof911
Maybe Yavanna some of her power into the trees, therefore, when Ungoliant killed them, some of her was killed. Much like Sauron put his power into the ring to beable to rule all. Sauron followed the path of his Master Morgoth.


No i don't think so. Sauron used his 2 dominate and aule and yavanna had the good will of iluvatar and were creating stuff for others. It is Also said that Aule was most liked 2 melkor in his skill of hand. Thats also because the 2 tress were unbeleivable works of art and she was tired of everything of hers being marred by melkor. Sauron do you think he could make the ring again, or celembrimbor, or feanor or earandil with his boat or melkor with the dargons? Also melkor didn't create much he just corrupted.;) ;) ;) ;)

[Camille]

Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: "Get thee gone from my gae, thou jail-crow of mandos!" and he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä

That states that in Eä melkor was the mightiests, even Manwë

[Camille]

another quote:
Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: "Mighty are the Ainur and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that may he know, and all the ainur, the I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done.

Greetings :)

[Telchar]

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
Thats right apart from that Melkor faced tulkas in the war of wrath and manwe didn't go his herald maia Eonwe did.
I know, but IIRC it's said that Melkor faced Manwe before he was thrusted out into the Void.

[Lord Melkor]

Of course I am more powerful, as well as smarter and sexier( Varda is ignorant)! Manwe= Iluwatar`s slave, me=Iluvatar`s rival, first free being to exist, and I haven`t said my last word!

I also believe that other Valar invested much of their power when they helped me shape Arda and later created Valinor!

And how dare you criticize me for creating Orcs/Trolls/Dragons etc.! Without them Arda would be a very poor place, not to mention their helped me achieve more that I could do alone!

By the way if Dragons, Children of Melkor, are greater than Iluvatar`s Children( elves and humans) then am I not greater than him in some way?!

[Woo]

Well Mr Melkor if ure children are greater than Eru's, why did ur greatest dragon Glaurung get punch up by turin a mere mortal human.
And besides all ure great children i.e. dragons are dead!?
U sure they are greater than Eru's children?
Well if ure children were as smart as Sauron i would commend u for creating but oh well!:D

[Telchar]

The Cildren of Melkor? Melkor could not create any living beeing, all the creatures he "created" were only made in mockery(sp?) of other beeings, who was created by Iluvatar. ;)

Camille; Eä is the definition of all that is, so Melkor can't be the mightiest, Iluvatar is, since Iluvatar isn't finite like the Valar.

[dgoof911]

I wonder if anyone created Illuvater. Would have been pretty cool.

[Camille]

Camille; Eä is the definition of all that is, so Melkor can't be the mightiest, Iluvatar is, since Iluvatar isn't finite like the Valar.

Hello Telchar I am just posting quotes from the Sil ;)
and you Lord melkor: in another part in the sil I dont remember.. after the flight of the noldor it said that melkor have lost power because he used a lot of this in the perversion of the dragons and all that, and that is the reason for him not going out of angband except once... to answer in fear to the Fingolfin call!!!! ( I love that part dont you?) I will post the exact quote later
Greetings :D

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Camille


Hello Telchar I am just posting quotes from the Sil ;)
and you Lord melkor: in another part in the sil I dont remember.. after the flight of the noldor it said that melkor have lost power because he used a lot of this in the perversion of the dragons and all that, and that is the reason for him not going out of angband except once... to answer in fear to the Fingolfin call!!!! ( I love that part dont you?) I will post the exact quote later
Greetings :D


No i'm not sure and i can't wait for that quote.

[dgoof911]

So Melkor started out as the most powerful, but to make evil creatures, he had to use more and more of his power and put it inside these creatures. So he slowly lost power and therefore Manwe was more powerful.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by dgoof911
So Melkor started out as the most powerful, but to make evil creatures, he had to use more and more of his power and put it inside these creatures. So he slowly lost power and therefore Manwe was more powerful.


No i don't think so. I just think that manwe lost maybe a bit of power being not counted as a valar. But i beleive that melkor is more powerful but manwe uses his power better.

[Úlairi]

Manwe is the lord of the Valar, the mightiest being on Arda. I believe that somewhere in the Sil it states that after the fall of Melkor, Manwe became the greatest for Iluvatar gave extra power to Manwe. Manwe was also the wiser of the two, and let's remember that good always will conquer evil. Melkor got so weak that when Ungoliant (most probably a fallen Maia) tried to take a Sil from him he called upon his Balrogs and he squealed like a little girl crying for his widdle Balwogs to come and save him from the terrible big haiwy spider!!! I think if Manwe were in that situation he would have dealt with Ungoliant himself!:D :) ;) :cool: :D Sorry Lord Melkor!!!:p

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ulairi
Manwe is the lord of the Valar, the mightiest being on Arda. I believe that somewhere in the Sil it states that after the fall of Melkor, Manwe became the greatest for Iluvatar gave extra power to Manwe. Manwe was also the wiser of the two, and let's remember that good always will conquer evil. Melkor got so weak that when Ungoliant (most probably a fallen Maia) tried to take a Sil from him he called upon his Balrogs and he squealed like a little girl crying for his widdle Balwogs to come and save him from the terrible big haiwy spider!!! I think if Manwe were in that situation he would have dealt with Ungoliant himself!:D :) ;) :cool: :D Sorry Lord Melkor!!!:p


No, i'm notn sure i don't think so. Manwe knew most of the mind of iluvatar. He might have got a little more. But melkor took on a lot of vala and he ran with them along time. Remember he destroyed everything they made especially yavanna. I just think that he didn't use the best of his ability. Also he never created anything. Not that came to life.

[Camille]

hello Guys I found the quotes from the sil that I was looking for:

From : Of the sun and the Moon:
And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dare not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds

another quote form : of the ruin of beleriand:


Ok that states that Melkor had lost some of his power.
That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear.

As you can see Melkor had indeed passed some of his power to his creatures and his might has decreased but throught all the sil Melkor is called the Mighiest in several stories, and I think that he is the mightiest among the Valar but his weakness is that he can feel fear!!!!! Manwe knew no fear and because of tha he is strongest and have and advantage over melñkor, and that he has all that others Valar by his side and Iluvatar of course that spoke throught him
As a conclusion i think that even thought Melkor is Mightiest, Manwe is his brother in the mind of Iluvatar and almost as mighties as he, he has the adventage that he doesnt know fear and How can you stop or confront someone fearless????

[baraka]

and I think that he is the mightiest among the Valar but his weakness is that he can feel fear!!!!!

Dear Camille, I think that the fact that Melkor knew fear is both a weakness and a strenght, why, because i think that because he knew fear it made him a more complete Vala, having being good and then evil. He had a more complete understanding of the whole nature.

[baraka]

It is said that of the Valar, only Melkor knew fear, but i found this quote in the AINULINDALË

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger.

How do you interpret this?

[Camille]

Got me Baraka!!! :p wait for a moment while I think in something...

[dgoof911]

Maybe Melkor knew the fear that others had when they were afraid of something very evil. The Anuir maybe had fear, but that doesn't mean they understand athat fear.

[baraka]

The Anuir maybe had fear, but that doesn't mean they understand athat fear.
So they were afraid and didn´t know what was that emotion?:confused:

[dgoof911]

Lets just say they didn't understand the fear that they could put on things. Melkor did.

[Camille]

Well I have to say that there is a contradiction (it seams so!!)and I dont have much to say about that, although I keep thinking that Melkor is the mightiest of the Valar, all the Sil said that, but
Dear Camille, I think that the fact that Melkor knew fear is both a weakness and a strenght, why, because i think that because he knew fear it made him a more complete Vala, having being good and then evil. He had a more complete understanding of the whole nature.
I do not agree with the fact that Melkor knowing good and evil make him a more complete vala, It would be in that way if he had been first evil and then good !!! or good-evil-good, because then he will know evil and used this knowledge for good.

[baraka]

I do not agree with the fact that Melkor knowing good and evil make him a more complete vala
How could he not be a more complete being, if he knew the emotion of fear and the other valar did not, then he knew something and experimented in something that the other valar had no understanding of that emotion. That i think it was Melkor was the mightiest of the Vala, he always wanted more, he was not content to be who he was. That quest for knowledge and power and ultimately evil is what set him apart of his "conformist" brethen.:)

[Camille]

How could he not be a more complete being, if he knew the emotion of fear and the other valar did not,

Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them;

ok did the ainur know the fear or not? and if they knew it then they would be as "complete as melkor" :D about this i think that maybe melkor is more afraid than the other valar: he was afraid of ungoliant, fingolfin, Arien,tulkas, etc, etc.
Melkor more complete mmm :rolleyes: we have to look what you mean about complete:
better??? Knowing different emotions??, feelings??, fear, angry, jealouse, lust, good at the begining, desire of creation etc. then he may be a more complete Vala, in feelings terms, the other Vala never knew some of them because there was no evil in themselves, but i still dont think that he is a complete vala, he is a corrupted one by his own pride
Just a question do you mean that complete is better?, if is that I dont agree, how can someone evil be better???
greetings
:)

[baraka]

Just a question do you mean that complete is better?, if is that I dont agree, how can someone evil be better???
Not in the sense that he could be more good, but in the fact that because he had a greater range of emotions and feelings and his desire to be more than he was made him a unique being of all the Valar instead of the "conformist" attitude of the other valar. I´m what i am, i am content with who i am and that is enough for me!:)

[Camille]

Do not agree, I dont see Melkor as some one not conformist he wanted to be more than what he was , ok, but that doesnt mean that he beeing not conformist make him a better Vala, better that the others, I thinks that manwe and folks deserved somo credits, they do not remaind doing nothing like the other Ainur, that were with Eru, they came to Arda an work there, and also melkor wanted just at the beging to make wonderful things, and create and all that but after that he was dedicated only to destroy, destroy others Vala's work or steal elves work, or corrupted beings, I do not think that kind of behaivor is not being conformist, and the other Vala deserve some credit ;)

[Camille]

and Aule, he wanted to be better, to create, remember the dwarves???

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Camille
and Aule, he wanted to be better, to create, remember the dwarves???



Yes and what about his spousse yavanna eh?? THE 2 TREES THE BOMB. They all made stuff or contributed.

[baraka]

Yes and what about his spousse yavanna eh?? THE 2 TREES THE BOMB. They all made stuff or contributed.
Yes, they created and made the world a better place, but were they trying to become more than they themselves were. I think that only Aule in the creation of the dwarves did and just that once.
Melkor wanted to be a God like Eru, why didn´t the other valar feel the same or similar. They were content with what they were and not to "better" themselves.:)

[Camille]

dont remember the quote, but in the sil says that The Vala went to Arda to prepare the home of the children of iluvatar, and not all the ainur went just the ones that later were known as Valar, I think they were also full of the desire of creation, they made the Earth and a beatufull one! they create a lot of thing, the dwarves, the trees, the animals, the mountains, the stars, the sun, the moon, acording to their posibilities, what they do not dare to do is other beings because they do not have the impereshable flame (sorry my bad English :D ) Melkor wanted, I agree but only at the begining he wanted to imitated Eru but after that he only destroy things, and about Aule again, he create beings but as he said to Iluvatar it was like the child imitating his father and there was no pride in him, I can not tell that about melkor, but remember that Eru made a great music, was in that music that melkor has to be bad??? or as in our day life, if there is a God .. why does evil exist?? ... sorry I went way out of the thread... but is related since we are talking about a god an a fallen angel... or vala.
greetings