Frodo Trying to Give Away the Ring

[HLGStrider]

At least twice in the book, Frodo attempts to give away the One Ring to someone he trusts.
The first time was with Gandalf when the Wizard told him the story of the ring. The only other one I can remember was Galadriel's very dramatic temptation.
I think he also sort of offered it to Aragorn at the Council of Elrond, because Aragorn was Isulder's heir.

Why does he do this? Would Frodo truly be able to give away something with such a strong hold on him? Does it show that Frodo is purer and less greedy than those who go before, or just more trusting?

It obviously shows the strength of those who turn it down and lets them admit their weakness in being unable to conquer it. Any comments?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
At least twice in the book, Frodo attempts to give away the One Ring to someone he trusts.
The first time was with Gandalf when the Wizard told him the story of the ring. The only other one I can remember was Galadriel's very dramatic temptation.
I think he also sort of offered it to Aragorn at the Council of Elrond, because Aragorn was Isulder's heir.

Why does he do this? Would Frodo truly be able to give away something with such a strong hold on him? Does it show that Frodo is purer and less greedy than those who go before, or just more trusting?

It obviously shows the strength of those who turn it down and lets them admit their weakness in being unable to conquer it. Any comments?



I think he might have been offering cause he was scared that they would take it by force. Also gandalf said that he couldn''t force bilbo to give it to him as it would brake his mind. UI think that he wouldn't have been able 2 give it 2 them in mordor. But he might have been able 2 at lothlorien in the shire. As for aragorn i think he just offered cause he thought it belonged to him. He was pretty tough and had a strong will but wouldn't it have been easyier for someone with a less strong will since the ring would have less power with on them. Bilbo gave the ring away and he had it a lot longer and used it more then frodo did. But i think cause of galadriel's and gandalf's majesty he would have given it up IF he thought they would do something good with it for M.E. Remember Boromir...

[Harad]

I agree with you. And think it was 3 times. It shows that even up to Lorien, Frodo has not succumbed to the Ring Addiction. However, he doesnt actually give it away so it unclear whether he REALLY would have been able to. By the time he reaches Cirith Ungol, not too much later, he IS hooked.

In part his resistance is due to his heroic nature, but he really hasnt used the Ring too much before Lorien. Bombadil, Bree, Weathertop..that's about it.

[HLGStrider]

Do you think he was ever truly afraid Aragorn would take the Ring after he had proven himself true at Weather Top?
I don't. I think he trusted Aragorn fully, almost as much as he trusted Gandalf.

[Harad]

I had a warm discussion of this with Bill the Pony on the movie forum. To answer you: no, certainly not in the book. In the movie I think when he meets Aragorn after escaping Boromir near Amon Hen, he is momentarily wary of ANYBODY. However he soon realizes there is a big difference between the 2 men and trusts Aragorn completely.

[HLGStrider]

I can imagine what a "Warm" conversation means with you, Harad... :rolleyes:

I remember him being afraid that the ring would tear the Fellowship appart... That's a whole nother... That a whole nother? That a whole other? Doesn't sound right... Oh well, that's another discussion.

His offers to Galadriel and Gandalf were totally open. I think they should a certain guileless, trusting quality that was stronger than guile or suspicion. The victory of innocence over all else, if you would...

[Harad]

Warm=friendly. I am sure thats what you meant.

BtP thought the movie was illogical:


What I did not understand is that Frodo first says he does not trust Aragorn. (he says something like stay away, you're not going to be able to resist it either). And then he just keeps standing there giving Aragorn every chance to take the ring away from him.

If he did not trust Aragorn as he says, then he should have slipped the ring on again and disappeared. If he did trust Aragorn (as he should), then he should not have said: stay away.


I dont think there is any problem here because Frodo knew both from experience (Bree, Weathertop, Caradhras, Parth Galen) that Aragorn was very different from Boromir. Frodo's initial problem is quite understandable: he had just escaped from Boromir and Sauron, both lusting after the Ring.

[Eonwe]

Originally posted by Harad
In part his resistance is due to his heroic nature, but he really hasnt used the Ring too much before Lorien. Bombadil, Bree, Weathertop..that's about it.

ohmygod you said "used" the Ring... :)

[Quercus]

I think that Frodo offered the ring to Gandalf because he had just been informed that he was in possesion of the most evil thing in Middle Earth and the dark lord was on to him. He was terrified and wanted nothing to do with it. Also, he trusted Gandalf to do the right thing with it, and at that point, I think that he would have given the ring to Gandalf with little hesitation. If Gandalf would have accepted it it would have been a quick fix for Frodo.

When Frodo offers the ring to Galadriel he knows that she already posesses one of the three elven rings, and I think that he's hoping that she would be willing to take on the responsibility of his ring too. Yes, I think he would have given her the ring. Why? Again because he's scared. Not just for his own safety. Altough I'm sure that by this time he's had quite enough adventures. But the person that he trusted the most to get him through this, Gandalf, is gone. Frodo feels like he's on his own and he's never really believed that he was an adequate candidate to carry out such a task. He told Gandalf that he felt he was lacking in the wits, heart and strength that one would need. (Sort of like the Scarecrow, Tin Man and Cowardly Lion all rolled into one!)

I think that's part of the reason why Frodo managed to fight the will of the ring as long as he did, he was totally unpretencious. He had no desire to try and wield the ring - he knew he couldn't.

As for whether or not Frodo would have entrusted the ring with Aragorn. I think that Frodo trusted Aragorn but I'm not sure how easy it would have been for Frodo to turn the ring over to him.

As for the movie - I think that they are so busy showing how wise Aragorn is for resisting the ring that they betray the fact that Aragorn would never have 'let Frodo go'(as he says in the movie) into Mordor all by himself. And I don't belive that Frodo would have ever left if he'd had known that his friends were in danger.

[Harad]

Aragorn would never have 'let Frodo go'(as he says in the movie) into Mordor all by himself.

Aragorn does this very thing in the book. When he lets Frodo go in the movie he does so by throwing himself in the path of a gazillion orcs.

[Tar-Palantir]

Obviously, the longer Frodo had the Ring and the closer he got to Mordor, the harder it would have been for him to give it up. But I wonder how easy it would have been for him to turn it over even as early as "Shadow of the Past". He got a little freaky when Gandalf threw it in the fire, remember.
Also, I never fully bought Galadriel's implication that Frodo was "revenged" and was consciously "testing" her when he offered Galadriel the Ring. First of all, I don't think Frodo was deep enough to do that. Plus, it's out of character. I read it more as Galadriel doing that to herself. She obviously had thought a lot about the One Ring and what she'd be able to do with it if she had it. Even though Gandalf had his "do not tempt me" speech, I think the lure of the Ring was much greater for Galadriel. Her desire for power is written all over her history.
As for Aragorn, I can think of no statement or thought by him that he would ever consider taking the Ring. Additionally, I don't consider Frodo's "then it's yours" statement at the Council to be an offer.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

We also see from the case of Bilbo that it's a good deal easier to offer, or even to intend, to give the ring away than it is to actually give it away.

I think that at least some of the "offers" were more like wishful thinking than genuine attempts to transfer the ring. At the CoE, Frodo sees an opportunity to rid himself of his terrible burden by "returning the ring to its rightful owner" (a misconception, as Aragorn and Gandalf quickly point out).

However, if it had come to actually handing over the ring to someone - anyone - it would be another matter entirely. Consider the encounter with Bilbo in Rivendell. Frodo loved Bilbo more than anyone in ME, but even allowing him to see the ring was a struggle, and Bilbo's attempt to touch it had monstrous effects.

The fact is, Frodo didn't have the Ring, the Ring had him. His rational mind may very well have wanted to pass it on, but I doubt he would have been able to do it, when push came to shove.

[HLGStrider]

I always thought there was something in Frodo that might've been capable of handing over the ring, at least in early stages, to at least Galadriel. He doesn't cringe too much when she grows huge and starts glowing...

[Snaga]

Donnie I think that's spot on. Remember when Gandalf asks him to throw it into the fire at Bag End? He can't do it. I don't believe he would have gone through with it.

Just as a matter of interest: he toys with the idea of giving the ring away only when in the presence of one of the Three. Coincidence?

[HLGStrider]

Interesting... Never thought of that...

Do you think that the three attract the one or is it that they have a sort of purifying presence, that makes him want to give it away?

Or is it just a big coincidence, considering that he wasn't offering the ring to Elrond or Gandalf, the second time... If you can call that an offer.

[Quercus]

Harad

OK you're right - I guess Aragorn did let Frodo go. I just never really thought of it that way. I stand corrected.

[Mellon]

This thought about the One being offered in the presence of the Three is intriguing, but I would humbly suggest this is coincidental. After all, Narya was present with Gandalf for much of the trilogy.

We could also look at this issue not in terms of "offering", but with regard to the several times that the Ring was turned down by those who knew what it was and had opportunity to take it. This adds the strong and good figures of Tom Bombadil, Faramir, and Elrond. Not to mention Samwise (the Strong!).

I think that Tolkien was trying to teach us something about character, and its importance in keeping material possessions from controlling us...



(How's that for my first posting with your group :cool: ? -- "Friend"

[Harad]

Good one Mellon. Welcome.

What evidence one way or the other is that:

After all, Narya was present with Gandalf for much of the trilogy

[Son of Elrond]

Frodo was the purest of heart and the one hobbit that Gandalf knew could resist the temptation of the ring longer than anyone. When he saw how Bilbo had reacted to seeing the "funny magic ring" again, he knew the power the ring could have over him if he let it. He realized he was carrying the weight of the future of middle earth, and the longer the journey lasted, the heavier, literally, the ring became. When the time came that Samwise should carry it after the spider's attack, again, Gandalf had chosen wisely, with Aragorn concurring when the time came, for this companion of Frodo proved to be the sturdiest and truest of friends possible. The turning point of the journey, inside the walls of Mordor, takes its toll on both of them.
When you think about the simplistic childlike nature of the Hobbits, it makes you think of the OT prophet Isaiah who said.... "And a child shall lead them...."

[Snaga]

Welcome Son of Elrond, Welcome Mellon!

I think Frodo offering the ring whilst in the presence of the 3 is coincidence: although perhaps in their presence Frodo feels safer.

Son of Elrond: I think you are right about Frodo's character, but Gandalf was fortunate that Bilbo chose a suitable heir. Of course Bilbo's judgement was generally better than you might expect, so this is not a surprise. But he might have decided to leave all to Pippin: how well would he have measured up? I don't think that Gandalf had many choices: he couldn't have got Bilbo to pass the ring on to anyone other than his chosen heir. Bilbo found it hard to give it up at all.

[Mellon]

Thanks Harad, and V of K...

In reply to your request for evidence for Narya being on Gandalf, I have presumed that this "Ring of Fire" perhaps helped him produce the fireworks, fireballs, and other fiery things that established his reputation amongst Hobbits and Dwarves (and Wargs) prior to the Trilogy. After all, this Ring was reportedly given to him by Cirdan the Shipwright upon Gandalf's arrival to ME many years earlier.

I thought it was a compelling clue when Gandalf held back the Balrog, and declared himself a "servant of the Secret Fire". (By the way, I think that this scene in the movie was as awesome and amazing as anything I might have ever imagined!) When Gandalf departs ME, he is described as wearing Narya openly "now".... implying that he had kept it covertly earlier. Note that the Three were all kept from being visible to us throughout the Trilogy, only the Ringbearer could appreciate Galadriel's ring. So I presume that Gandalf also kept his hidden.

I suppose it could be argued that the "Secret Fire" and "Flame of Anor" do not reference the Elven Ring. In that case, we would have to ask ourselves what Gandalf was doing traveling <without> Narya on the most important mission of his career.

I like the child:hobbit allusion... I'm sure we've all appreciated the childlike nature of hobbits, and it is inspiring that most of us seem to agree that Tolkien also identified with these creatures through Bilbo. I think is characteristic of children not to be particularly enamored of material wealth or objects, and to want to ask grown-ups to deal with dangerous things that are out of their reckoning. ;)

[Snaga]

Mellon

I agree Gandalf carried Narya - I think this is quite clear. Harad: were you suggesting something else?

The Hobbit - Children analogy is interesting.

Hobbits are not interested in power and conquest, being more interested in simple pleasures such as 6 meals at day, smoking some leaf, and discussing family trees. I think this is an idealised rural outlook, rather than a portrayal of them as child-like particularly.

Children do seek material objects: toys and sweets etc. They can't easily assess the value of them, since they don't understand that value is related to the skill and effort of making something, and the materials used. Instead they will assess value in terms of 'is it fun to play with' and 'does it taste nice'. So at any moment, a bag of sweets may seem more valuable to them than a ring.

Hobbits aren't like this: the Shire does use money, and they calculate value accordingly, and Bilbo is envied for his wealth. Indeed it is through this, that the Shire is corrupted by Saruman.

[Mellon]

Interesting line we're getting into...

I must agree that restraining a six-year old from the candy boxes at check-out shows that children can strongly desire material things. But consider the day after a child's Birthday or winter holiday (Xmas)... gifts once coveted are often ignored. So I will agree that children can crave material things, but they tend not to sustain the craving, or become obsessed the way we see some adults do.

In this way, the Ringbearing Hobbits seem more resistant to the Ring's power of entrapment.

It seems to me that as with Men, there are Hobbits with greater and lesser desire for possession. Or, like candy for children, some things like mushrooms tend to lure Hobbits more than others. But there is an ongoing theme of generosity: mathoms, giving gifts at Birthdays, etc. Even Ms. Sackville-Baggins donated all her wealth to homeless Hobbits when she died.

Perhaps all these qualities fit a stereotype for "rural folk". But my conception of the Hobbit:Child analogy includes similarities in height, desire to go barefoot, always wanting to eat, enjoying frequent Birthday parties (even as adults!), aptitude for throwing stones and making riddles, ability to tiptoe quietly and hide in small places, a relatively diminutive interest in the opposite sex, ability to heal rapidly from injury without much psychological impact, etc. These qualities seem more characteristic of children than rural folk, though certainly Hobbits have a fair share of both traits.

[HLGStrider]

I really don't think the value of things is related to the skill taken in making them... I think that value is the price you are willing to pay for something. I don't believe anything has a set value.

They can't easily assess the value of them, since they don't understand that value is related to the skill and effort of making something,

[Snaga]

Perhaps we need to start a Guild of Economists in the Prancing Pony?

I agree that the price that someone is willing to pay is important. But you would not be willing to pay a high price for something that is quick and simple to make - you may as well do it yourself, or pay someone else to make it for less. That forces the price down. But if the skills to make something are rare, you can't do that so the price stays high.

[HLGStrider]

Good point I suppose...

I still think supply and demand has a lot to do with it in the modern day scheme of things... There are very few things that you can't find out how to make cheep and quick...

but this is really off subject... isn't it? Sorry...

[Úlairi]

:D :D :D I seem to remember that Hobbits show a resilience also to the Ring and Frodo was more 'willing' to give it up because he did not wish to carry such a burden!:D :D :D

[Mellon]

Yes, nothing like common sense.

I picked up LOTR for the first time in 10 years shortly before the movie came out. On this re-reading I was shocked by how SEVERE the dangers were that the hobbits encountered before even getting to Rivendell. It is some wonder that any of them survived! They must've been scared totally out of their wits for the whole time until they arrived at Rivendell. That part of the story was perhaps the most risky of any part, as Gandalf alluded to at some point later.

So I agree, it sure made sense to unload this very dangerous thing to a responsible and powerful one.

[Quercus]

Yep, that's just what I said on page one.

Bilbo didn't know that the ring was dangerous, he thought it was just a fun little trinket to have around, and he was able to give it up (with some coaxing from Gandalf).

Frodo, on the other hand, knew how dangerous that ring was and he wished more than once that it had never come to him! Of course he would have given up the ring to Gandalf or Galadriel! Although, in the end, it may have very well required some coaxing.

[Mellon]

Nice point.

Interesting how Frodo was able to freely hand the ring over to Tom Bombadil. This was still early, but he still had shown difficulty throwing the ring into the fire prior to that.

[Quercus]

Yes, he was reluctant to have the ring thrown in the fire. But destroying the ring was a lot different than giving it to a friend.

As for Tom Bombadil, I'm still trying to figure this guy out. Frodo scarcely knew Tom and yet he was able to hand him the ring without hesitation. What's up with that?

[HLGStrider]

I always thought it was a stun gun request... You know, sweet little hobbit sitting there not even thinking his host knows of ring...
"Give me the ring!"

Hobbit's eyes go wide and blank. Dazed, he jerkily pulls the ring out and hands it over... Like he was hypnotized... You are getting sleepy, Quercus... very sleepy...

[Snaga]

Tom is the master.

[Quercus]

I get the stun gun idea but it still seems very odd. Frodo went totally out of character and handed the ring over without hesitation. Then, as if that weren't strange enough, Frodo put the ring on for the first time (as far as we know) in a rather frivolous attempt to see if he'd beened tricked. It's almost as if 'all bets were off' in the house of Tom Bombadil.

And you're right HLGStrider - I am getting sleepy! Guess I'll have to curl up with a couple of my cats and catch some zzzzz's.

[HLGStrider]

YOU HAVE CATS TOO!!! :D

[Quercus]

Seven of them! There's even one named Frodo!

[Snaga]

The point about Tom Bombadil's little land is that within it what he says goes. Tom asks him for the ring so he gives it to him, regardless of anything else. Once he's done it, he starts feeling resentment / possessiveness etc as any self-respecting ring-bearer would. So I don't think he goes out of character.

[Quercus]

Good Point, Variag! Perhaps it's as simple as that.

[Snaga]

Why thank you Quercus. **removes hat and bows low**

[Úlairi]

:D :D :D I am glad also that I made a good point. Someone said the Tom is the master, this may not ne very far away from the truth. I personally don't think that Tom is a Vala, a Maia or Iluvatar. It says in The Lord of the Rings that Gandalf did not believe that Tom would be able to stand up to the power of Sauron for long if Sauron obtained the Ring!!!:D :D :D

[Mellon]

He may not be THE Master, but he WAS able to nurture his marraige for umpteen years, an accomplishment which seems even more miraculous for a person speaking in singing rhymes all the time. I'd get a frying pan over the head after a few days of talking like that!!:D

[HLGStrider]

Another interesting question... Which LotR character would make the most annoying spouse?

One vote for sing-sing-a-song Bombadill...

How about Treebeard, always talking about his first wife...

Gandalf!!! You just can't keep track of that guy... Always late coming home...

Galadriel... very domineering for a wife...

Any others?

[Mellon]

Shelob...

But I'm sure she knows how to suck! (apologies) LOL