Riddle or Question?

[Ancalagon]

What have I got in my pockets?

Do you think it was fair of Bilbo to ask Gollum (what I beleive is) a question like this whilst playing a game of riddles? Even if Gollum was prepared to answer with 3 attempts it was still wrong and technically Bilbo should not have won the game. Gollum at this stage was unaware that he had lost his ring.

The debate stands as to whether this is actually a Question or a Riddle. What do you think?

[Lindir]

It was obviously a question and not a riddle, but as Gollum accepted it, I'd say Bilbo won the game fairly.

[Gary Gamgee]

Yes Lindir i agree, Bilbo was actually thinking aloud when he said this, but Gollum immediatly accepted it as part of the riddle game.

[Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Gary Gamgee
Yes Lindir i agree, Bilbo was actually thinking aloud when he said this, but Gollum immediatly accepted it as part of the riddle game.

Yep that’s how I read it.

[Ancalagon]

The commentary within 'The Return of the King' states there is a division among scholars about this very question, though all agree it was accepted by Gollum which made it fair game.

[Vilya Elathelas]

I think it's fair so long as gollum agreed that it was and agrred also to three guesses.

And it's all thanks to that that I go around saying 'what have i got in my pocket??':D

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Vilya Elathelas
I think it's fair so long as gollum agreed that it was and agrred also to three guesses.

And it's all thanks to that that I go around saying 'what have i got in my pocket??':D



Yes i think it is fair to an extenet. Yes Gollum said it was alright but that was dumb. Serouisley how many things could he have in his pocket?

[DGoeij]

Anything but an Oceanliner and a Locomotive, to quote a childhood hero of mine.:D
(it was a pelican referring to his beek where he stored practically anything in case it was needed)

[ssgrif]

The commentary within 'The Return of the King' states there is a division among scholars about this very question

So it was a question then?!?!?!

I agree with everyone here, that it was obviously a question, and Bilbo was left with no choice but to cheat, more or less. Hey, if Gollum accepted it then he has no one else to blame but himself, especially as he lost the game!

Good one Bilbo, quick thinking for such a small flat hairy footed hobbit!

[Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Gary Gamgee
Yes Lindir i agree, Bilbo was actually thinking aloud when he said this, but Gollum immediatly accepted it as part of the riddle game.

I don't think that Bilbo was cheating because Gollum accepted it. Also he was kind of “playing” for his life, he knew that of he lost or did not keep Gollum at bay then he would be attacked. So needless to say he was kind of desperate for a way out.

From the book
-""What have I got in my pocket?" He said this aloud. He was talking to himself, but Gollum thought it was a riddle, and was frightfully upset."
-"Bilbo seeing what had happened and having nothing better to ask stuck to his question"

[Gary Gamgee]

I thought Gollum's first guess was actually quite good though

"Handses"

;) GGG

[Eonwe]

the other two guesses were good too!!

Knife! String or Nothing! :) :)

I always thought it was a question. I think Gollum should have stuck to his initial response "Not Fair!". But since he tried to answer, all bets were off. Or on, as it were.

[Tao]

I would, like everyone else, say it is fair. Gollum shouldn't have accepted in the first place. Also, it never occurred to Bilbo that he'd actually except it.

Perfectly fair. :)

Too bad for Gollum :p

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Eonwe
the other two guesses were good too!!

Knife! String or Nothing! :) :)

I always thought it was a question. I think Gollum should have stuck to his initial response "Not Fair!". But since he tried to answer, all bets were off. Or on, as it were.


Yeah i think since gollum answered it must be determined as fair. Handses was a good geuss.:D :D :) :)

[ssgrif]

I like to think that Gollum has a sense of humour and was being sarcastic when he gave the answer "handses"

I Bilbo was smirking in the dark when he heard that answer!

[Ancalagon]

So, if most are agreed that it was a question; does this make Bilbo a cheat?

[ssgrif]

As an observer, looking at the situation between Bilbo and Gollum, I feel that he did cheat but he got away with it. Gollum should have put up a fight and not let Bilbo ask a question instead of a riddle.

silly little Gollum, I wonder what would have happened if Gollum didn't let it slide and that Bilbo actually lost the game?

Would Frodo have ever recieved the Ring from Bilbo? Would he have gone on his quest at all with the Fellowship to Mount Doom?

[Prince Legolas]

I think it was fair. Bilbo wasn't really asking a riddle at all when he asked 'What have I got in my pocket' It was Gollum who automatically assumed that it was a riddle, and Bilbo, not being able to think of anything else, stuck with it.

[DGoeij]

And instead of asking for a real riddle, Gollum demanded three guesses, and lost.
I'd say it was fair enough.

[Grond]

It is not a riddle under the "riddle rules of Middle-earth"; however, since Gollum accepted the question and made counter-demands (three guesses) the question was deemed a riddle by the Riddle Vala. (I think his name was Tom Bombadil (aka the Riddler from Batman. It appears they both have an affinity for green.):)

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Grond
It is not a riddle under the "riddle rules of Middle-earth"; however, since Gollum accepted the question and made counter-demands (three guesses) the question was deemed a riddle by the Riddle Vala. (I think his name was Tom Bombadil (aka the Riddler from Batman. It appears they both have an affinity for green.):)

LOL, and they both tend to make weird sounds when excited.:)

[Beleg Strongbow]

I think 2 that bilbo was just thinking aloud and went along with it because gollum did which makes it fair.

[katie2008]

I don't think it was fair, but since gullom was none the wiser, or could do nothing about it...

[Anduril]

I support the idea that Bilbo was loud thinking, but we all must remember that he has a tremendous ability for cheating (I don't have to refer you to the very beggining of LOTR: Bilbo's birthday and his speech), so I think it was a question and Bilbo took advantage of this fact.

[Lillyaundra]

I definately support the question theory. Bilbo was probibaly just trying to come up with a riddlefor a ring and spoke out loud.:D

[My_Precious]

I don't think it's fair, but Gollum was going to eat Bilbo, I can imagine how hard it was for Bilbo to concentrate.:)

[Anduril]

I'm just trying to imagine Golum in front of me, with that cold sight in his eyes...
:eek:

But, at the end, I think Bilbo, along the books, demonstrated ingenuity that helped him to solve real rough matters...

[Kelkorian]

Definition of "riddle":

rid·dle2 Pronunciation Key (rdl)
n.
1. A question or statement requiring thought to answer or understand; a conundrum.
2. One that is perplexing; an enigma.

It certainly was a question; it certainly was an enigma; and it perplexed Gollum.
Guess it could be a riddle too.

(taken from this place (http://www.dictionary.com/))

[darkknight-nyc]

I also agree that Bilbo's last riddle was a question. What if Bilbo lost? Would he let Gollum eat him?

[shelob2002]

gollum got what he deserved , dirty backstabber.

[YayGollum]

Hey! Woah! Shelob! You're supposed to like Gollum! Or at least not care a whit about him!

[Khamul]

I really think that it wasnt a fair riddle. But, it is also the basis for almost all of LOTR. When you get some luck, do you go with it, or just wait for everything to be fair for everyone?

[YayGollum]

Only one thing to say. Poor Smeagol. Bilbo's good luck and Gollum's bad luck. oh well.

[Khamul]

Yes, Bilbo won by chance, he was also only a pawn in the bigger picture of ME. As was Gollum.

[YayGollum]

Yes, the evil thief Baggins was a pawn. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO , Gollum the hero was not a pawn! Ummm....just because.

[Khamul]

Sorry Yay, Gollum was a pawn in the fate of ME. Aragorn, Gandalf etc. were bishops and Kings and Queens in ME's fate.

[Hanne]

No,I don't think it was fair of Bilbo but Gollum was pretty close when he said 'hands' and 'knife'.But Gollum is a horrible creature so I don't care that he lost!!!:D

[syongstar]

perhaps it is a question but the answer must be found by questing
therfore it be a riddle
does this settle?

HTTP://www.geocities.com/shst777/forceflow.html

[Goldberry]

I think it was a question, and Bilbo was thinking out loud, never intending to make it his riddle. But he seized the opportunity, since Gollum mistook it for his riddle. Technically, I'd say it was not fair. But since Gollum was really going to eat him ANYWAY, it really didn't make sense for him to play by the rules. I'd say he did the smartest thing possible. He was quite resourceful, and a bit lucky. There's more to that hobbit than meets the eye!

This is my favorite part of the book. Gollum is such a rich character, even if he's not a good guy.

[CyberGhostface]

I hope Gollum will rise from the dead and stab Bilbo to death. Then, he disappears his soulses finally at peace...:D

[Gandalf_White]

It was definitly a question. But I think both Bilbo and Gollum were stupid. Cuz Bilbo cheated by not telling a riddle. And Gollum accepted. So in a way they both were at fault. ;)

***Please use letter color as a means to highlight your post***

[Lady Legolas]

it was a question.....

I don't think Bilbo won it fairly. But Gollum was not very bright as thinking it was a riddle at first.

[frenchteacher]

Hello,
I agree with you. Bilbo isn't a cheater.

I would like to know if in english "string" has only one sense : rope : it's linear.
Has "string" an other sense : more circular as " chain holding things like pearls ?
If it's true Gullum won the game because the ring is circular.
Am I right ???
Bye

[Greenwood]

frenchteacher,

I am afraid I don't quite understand your question. Yes, in English the ends of a string can be tied together so that you end up with a circle as in a necklace (a string of pearls), but I do not see the relevance of this to the Riddle Game in The Hobbit.

As for the original topic of this thread, I noticed that no one mentioned that the version we are all familiar with in The Hobbit was not the original version. Tolkien rewrote it shortly before the publication of LOTR so that he could tie the two stories together. In the original (1st edition of The Hobbit) Gollum accepts Bilbo's question as a riddle and fails to answer it as he does in the version 2nd edition. Also as in the 2nd edition Bilbo then stands and holds out his sword because he fears Gollum will attack him. At this point the two versions diverge sharply. In the original, the story continues: 'But funnily enough he need not have been alarmed. For one thing Gollum had learned long long ago was never, never, to cheat at the riddle-game, which is a sacred one and of immense antiquity. Also there was the sword. He simply sat and whispered.' Thus we see that in the original, Gollum has clearly accepted Bilbo's question as a valid part of the riddle game. Gollum then goes to his island to find his ring to give to Bilbo for winning the riddle game!!! Of course he can't find it since he had already lost it and Bilbo had it in his pocket. Gollum even comes back and apologizes to Bilbo(!): 'Gollum begged Bilbo's pardon. He kept on saying: "We are ssorry; we didn't mean to cheat, we meant to give it our only only pressent, if it won the competition." He even offered to catch Bilbo some nice juicy fish to eat as a consolation.' Without a prize to give to Bilbo for winning the game, Gollum shows Bilbo the way out and Bilbo simply bids him goodbye. A side-by-side comparison of the two versions can be found here. (http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html)

[Alcuin]

A side-by-side comparison of the two versions can be found here. (http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html)Reference is missing. Would you please check your link? It may be gone; that would be too bad.

[Annaheru]

Tolkien (later) tells us the first version is what Bilbo made up, and the second the true tale as he later told it to Gandalf and Frodo. According to JRR, he originally used the ist version because that's what's in the Red Book of Westmarch, but when he found the true tale written down elsewhere (maybe in conjunction with what became LoTR?) he 'corrected' his published manuscript. To be perfectly fair, Bilbo didn't mean for the string question to be answered: he was thinking out loud. Knowing that it wasn't a genuine riddle probably helped in his decision to lie about what happened (guilt being a nice opening for the Ring to start working on him). I think if Gollum had insisted on Bilbo asking a true riddle instead of requesting additional guesses Bilbo would have tried to think of something else. Gollum, seemingly, was as mentally worn out as Bilbo and just wanted the game to end.

[Greenwood]

Reference is missing. Would you please check your link? It may be gone; that would be too bad.Did you try clicking on the word here in my post? The link worked when I clicked on it. In any event the url is: http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html

Annaheru,

You seem to be confusing the internals of the story with the reality of JRRT's writing the stories. The original version that I quoted from is the first edition of The Hobbit that was published in 1937 and was the in print version until JRRT published a second edition in the early 1950's that he had rewritten in anticipation of the publication of LOTR.

[Alcuin]

In any event the url is:Thank you!

[frenchteacher]

Hello. Sorry I am French. I lack words to write my ideas. I know the two versions. I read the second one.
My question is the shape between the two things. A ring and a string are circular. Gollum founded the shape. Does Bilbo realy know the shape of what is in his pocket ?
And in phonetics "string" is alliteration with "ring". Gollum not very far from the solution. That's my idea.
For the shape, as Bilbo does not know exactly what is in his pocket, i wonder if "string" connotes "circular shape". So Gollum is very near the solution.
My idea is that Bilbo is not a cheater but a liar. Bilbo is not yet a burglar he is a liar.

[Flame of Udûn]

Bilbo did know it was a ring he found:. . . his hand met what felt like a tiny ring of cold metal lying on the floor of the tunnel."String" no connotation of "circle".

[Alcuin]

frenchteacher, your arguments are deconstructionist, but they do spur me to response.

A ring and a string are circular. Gollum founded the shape. ... i wonder if "string" connotes "circular shape".A string is made as a definite line integral, whether by modern, real-world methods or by ancient methods of twirling and spinning. To make a circle from a string is a deliberate act that alters the geometry of the string.

In English, the expression “a string of events” denotes a series of experiences with a definite start and a definite end. My French is rather poor, but perhaps the idiomatic use of la ficelle is rather different.

Surely in the context of the tale, Gollum is asking if Bilbo has a wad of tangled string in his pocket, either detritus (small pieces of trash) or frayed material. Presumably, neither of these creatures is discussing 21st century real-world theoretical physics.

And in phonetics "string" is alliteration with "ring".Deconstructionist stretch. It also alliterates with “sing” and rhymes with scores of English root words; in addition, nearly every English verb accepts the ending –ing. It’s reaching too far.

My idea is that Bilbo is not a cheater but a liar. Bilbo is not yet a burglar he is a liar.Lying denotes intention. It is a deliberate act of deception or subterfuge, not an accident. There is no indication that Bilbo intentionally lied to Gollum in either version of the story.

Accidentally misleading someone is either ignorance or a mistake. Tolkien leads us to believe that Bilbo was momentarily distracted by the Ring, and asked, “What have I got in my pocket?” Gollum was right: it wasn’t a fair question, and it wasn’t a riddle, but rather an ordinary question. Tolkien gives the answer to this thread* in the Prologue to Fellowship of the Ring”

The Authorities, it is true, differ whether this last question was a mere ‘question’ and not a ‘riddle’ according to the strict rules of the Game; but all agree that, after accepting it and trying to guess the answer, Gollum was bound by his promise.If you want to call Bilbo a liar, you could argue that he is a liar because he initially lied to Gandalf and the dwarves about what transpired between him and Gollum. Or you could argue that since Bilbo wrote There and Back Again, he lied in his book; but that rather defeats the fun in reading The Hobbit, doesn’t it? Finally, you could argue that because hobbits presumably wrote the Prologue and the Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King, the “Authorities” they quote are biased and unreliable.

Tolkien’s friend C.S. Lewis best described this thread while writing on an unrelated subject: “"This knot comes undone when you try to pull it tight."

* “thread“ = “string”: a series of comments with a definite start, a second post, a third and so on to this post, and then continuing to a definite end sometime in the future; if the last post is also the first post so that the thread becomes circular and all the posts repeat, the database storing the thread and its posts will be fouled, the thread will be deleted, and all the posts will be lost. The forum dataabse administrator is praying no thread will ever be circular.

[frenchteacher]

Thanks for your answers !
I learned a lot. My interpretation goes too far, allright.
Neither in words nor in alliteration, there is a bind between "ring" and "string". String is translated in the french version of The Hobbit as " une ficelle ".

I have two other questions to be sure.

First there is no bond between "ring" and "sting" even if Gollum has a speech impediment : beginning his words with ssss-. First Question.

The last one : What is your jugement on the fact that Bilbo does not show what it has in his pocket? There is no proof.

Sorry for these questions, I am writing a book on The Hobbit. I read a lot of books in French and in English. In France, there are no studies on this book. I am tryingg to synthesize what has been written. I will receive in a few weeks The Annotated Hobbit. I am trying too to developp new points of view on this book.

Have a good day

[frenchteacher]

Surely in the context of the tale, Gollum is asking if Bilbo has a wad of tangled string in his pocket, either detritus (small pieces of trash) or frayed material.
If i understand, Gollum is not so far the answer when he is saying "hands" : Bilbo "had just taken his hand out again".
The second answer is near too: Gollum makes a deduction of what is sharp in his pocket so he thinks Bilbo might have the same, so he daid "knife". "Bilbo had lost his some time ago". And Bilbo has his sword on the other hand as a protection.
So the third answer is deducted from what Gollum has in his pocket too: he has detritus. So that's the reason why Gollum is saying "string or nothing". Am I right if i say that's in fact the same thing : "string" is a piece of detritus and it's useless as "nothing" ?
Do you understand what I mean ? It's difficult for me to develop theses ideas in English !

Bye:)

[Greenwood]

frenchteacher,

Now I understand your question about "ring" and "string". It is an interesting idea, but I agree with Alcuin that it is probably stretching the similarity of the words too far.

As for Gollums guesses, all four (since he slipped in an extra one) are reasonable guesses as to what someone might have in their pocket. Gollum's first guess of hands would even have been right and arguably won the game if Bilbo hadn't already removed his hands. Gollum could also have thought that Bilbo's question was a "trick" question if he had nothing in his pocket. I would not equate string with nothing, however, since string can be quite useful and a traveler might be carrying some. I often carry string (or something heavier) when I go hiking, though not usually in my pocket.

As for Bilbo not showing what he had in his pocket, and therefore proving that Gollum's guesses were wrong, I am not sure whether this could be argued as violating the rules of the game. I would think that normally you would have to prove that the other person's guess (or solution to the riddle) was wrong, however, Gollum never asked. Since Gollum doesn't ask to see what is in Bilbo's pocket, I would say it is like Gollum's accepting the question in the first place. Once Gollum accepts the situation, the rules apply.

[baragund]

Frenchteacher,

First of all, I'd like to complement you on your patience and perseverence in communicating with the rest of us in English. :) It's difficult when you can't communicate your thoughts as well as you know you can.

Now here ar my thoughts regarding your follow-up questions.

I never detected a "bond", or link, between Tolkien's use of "Sting" for Bilbo's sword and the Ring. The words happen to rhyme but I think that is coincidental. And, if I recall correctly, Bilbo didn't name his sword "Sting" until his fight with the spiders of Mirkwood and he actually likened his little sword to a bee's stinger. At that point of the story, Gollum was not in Bilbo's thoughts.

Bilbo didn't show the Ring to Gollum at the end of the riddle game because 1) he was starting to get an inkling that this Ring was something special and 2) Gollum was becoming so agitated Bilbo thought showing the Ring would only further provoke him.

I don't think I would equate "string" to "nothing" in the context of the riddle game because I don't necessarily agree that "string" should be described as detritus. In this setting where Bilbo and the Dwarves are taking a long journey on foot in a setting where there are not many facilities, string could be considered a valuable tool. Mending clothes comes to mind or perhaps tieing up bundles of food and hanging them in a tree so animals don't get at it in the night.

Hope this helps. It would be gratifying to know that some of our input will be used in your book! :)

[Annaheru]

@Greenwood,
I don't think your getting my point. The changes reflect Tolkien's new 'understanding' of both the Hobbit and the Ring. The first edition is supposed to be understood as a story concocted by Bilbo, this is the story he told the dwarves and wrote into his diary. In the second version Tolkien expressly states that the last question isn't a riddle.

The first edition of this account was not, in Tolkien's mind (atleast at some point), fact: it was fiction. After Tolkien made these changes he wished the original tale to be understood as a lie and treated accordingly.

[frenchteacher]

Thank you very much. You help me. I agree with your remarks. I would, like everyone else, say it is fair. Gollum shouldn't have accepted in the first place. Also, it never occurred to Bilbo that he'd actually except it.
I think that some of my ideas go too far. Deconstructionist stretch. It also alliterates with “sing” and rhymes with scores of English root words; in addition, nearly every English verb accepts the ending –ing. It’s reaching too far.

Thanks for the first and second version of The Hobbit : very useful for me.
I know some interpretations : I read English Books.
I study The Hobbit as a fairy tale. I dont want to integrate these facts : Tolkien wrote on fairy tales. In this study, Tolkien did not agree with what he had written in The Hobbit, especially on magic : he regrets to have made fun on the magic.
I know that Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Ring and replaced facts in the Hobbit : that's why there is a second version of The Hobbit. When Tolkien wrote the Hobbit, he did not have in his mind the whole project he describes in LOR. But I dont want to write on LOR, my study is only on The Hobbit. The second version is very interresting, because in France I think there is no traduction of that. Great interest for me.

On the riddle, I found:
Gollum : mountain : Gollum and Bilbo live under montains.
Bilbo : teeth. Gollum is an ogre - one says : to eat like a horse.
Gollum : wind. Bilbo is under the mountain because of the wind and the storms.
Bilbo : eyes = sun.
Gollum = dark. Where he lives.
Bilbo = eggs = Bilbo = new life. Gollum = death because he teached his grandmother to suck eggs.
Gollum : fish = the food = ogre once more
Bilbo : fish = food : he is very weak, tired and Gollum will eat him.
Gollum = time = death = Bilbo is very very weak.
No more riddles. But Gollum agrees.
Gollum claims three answers.
One = hands. Almost the answer.
Two : knife. Almost the answer.
Three : string or nothing. Here am I.
A string is useful for an adventurer : is that correct ?
The cheater is Gollum : two answers.
The riddle-game was sacred. If in mythology the Sphinx killed (heself or himself), Gollum will seek his ring to kill Bilbo.
Am I right ?

Bye :)

French Teacher

[baragund]

French Teacher,

I think you might be trying to create more parallels between Bilbo and Gollum than what is really there. In the riddle game, both posed riddles that were based on things that each were familiar with. Here are a few comments on the parallels you drew on each riddle question:

Gollum's mountain question: I don't know if I would characterize Bilbo as living under a mountain. Yes, his hobbit hole is subterranean but a hole in a hillside where each room has it's own windows is a far cry from Gollum's situation.

Gollum's wind question: Actually, Bilbo is under the mountain because he and his party were captured by goblins and he later became lost. If it weren't for the goblins, Bilbo and the Dwarves would have resumed their trip on their original path.

Who cheated? Well, from the discussion above and elsewhere in this part of the forum, one could make an argument that Bilbo cheated as well with his
"What have I got in my pocket?" question.


btw, Can you share with us the thrust of your book? Perhaps if you can share with us what you're trying to accomplish then we can provide support... or on the other hand maybe tell you that you're going in the wrong direction. :o

[Greenwood]

@Greenwood,
I don't think your getting my point. The changes reflect Tolkien's new 'understanding' of both the Hobbit and the Ring. The first edition is supposed to be understood as a story concocted by Bilbo, this is the story he told the dwarves and wrote into his diary. In the second version Tolkien expressly states that the last question isn't a riddle.

The first edition of this account was not, in Tolkien's mind (atleast at some point), fact: it was fiction. After Tolkien made these changes he wished the original tale to be understood as a lie and treated accordingly.I may still not be getting your point. The last question comes about in exactly the same way and Gollum accepts it as a valid question in exactly the same way in both versions. It is clear in both versions the last question was not a riddle (the versions are the same in this regard). There is absolutely no evidence to argue that the Ring influenced Bilbo in his saying "What have I got in my pocket?" There is no evidence for the Ring influencing Gollum's acceptance of the question.

If you mean that Tolkien incorporated the fact of the change between the two versions as evidence that the Ring was already influencing Bilbo, yes, this was a bit of clever writing on Tolkien's part -- attributing a now declared false version of events to the effects of the Ring. None of this, however, has anything to do with the last question in the riddle game, which is I believe what we have been discussing. The two versions are the same in describing how that question came about and Gollum's acceptance of it. It is the aftermath that is radically different in events and implications.

I assume (I may be wrong) that you are referring to Tolkien's Preface/Foreward to The Hobbit in the second edition. In it Tolkien says: In this reprint several minor inaccuracies, most of them noted by readers, have been corrected. ...... There is the true story of the ending of the Riddle Game, as it was eventually revealed (under pressure) by Bilbo to Gandalf, is now given according to the Red Book, in place of the version Bilbo, first gave to his friends, and actually set down in his diary. This departure from the truth on the part of a most honest hobbit was a portent of great significance. It does not, however, concern the present story, and those who in this edition make their first acquaintance with hobbit-lore need not trouble about it. Its explanation lise in the history of the Ring, as it is set out in the chronicles of the Red Book of Westmarch, and it must await their publication.As I said, this was a clever bit of writing on Tolkien's part, but it has nothing to do with the last question in the Riddle Game. Do you have some other reference in mind when you say: "In the second version Tolkien expressly states that the last question isn't a riddle."?

[Greenwood]

frenchteacher,

I agree with Baragund that you may be trying to read more parallels between Bilbo and Gollum than were really there in The Hobbit.

[frenchteacher]

The thrust of my book : to demonstrte that The Hobbit is a tale for children.
In France there is no book, no study on The Hobbit. On the web, I found a study on The Hobbit. The author goes even further than me : the box = the bag in which Bilbo puts the ring. He says that the last answer is the ring.
I dont agree with him because French studies are on LoR, the authors think that explications of The Hobbit are in LoR. They dont study The Hobbit by itself. I think it's a mistake.

I think that Tolkien rewrote chapter V to insert the lacks in the LoR. Tolkien develops his characters - Gollum, Gandalf - in LoR, but in The Hobbit they didn't have the power as in LoR.
Tolkien rewrote The Hobbit, he claims that this history is told from the point of view of Bilbo : The Red Book.
Tolkien wrote On Faërie, but in this book, he seems to regret to have written The Hobbit.

For me, LoR isn't the sequel of The Hobbit. This book has a special place.

Actually, you oppose to me certains interpretations, but Bettelheim wrote on tales. Migt I use these inconscious explanations ?

It's very difficult for me to explain my study in a foreign language. Thanks a lot for your answers.

In France, I wrote on a forum, but they can't help me : everybody compares LoR with The Hobbit. I dont want to compare : The Hobbit has a special place even if Tolkien claims the opposite.

In this forum, it's great because you help me a lot.

Bye

French Teacher

[Annaheru]

In the Hobbit itself: "Any excuse would do for him to slide out of it. And after all that last question had not been a genuine riddle according to the ancient laws."

and when gollum can't find the Ring: "After all, he had won the game, pretty fairly, at a horrible risk. 'Answers were to be guessed not given,' he said. 'But it wasn't a fair question,' said Gollum. 'Not a riddle, precious, no."
[italics added]


In both cases these are Bilbo's own thoughts. In Tolkien's first version the above quote does not exist. Hence my premise that Bilbo felt guilty and therefore lied about what happened (I operate from the position that the 2nd version is the true account, just like I accept the later meaning of Quenya words over the original Qenya meaning). I think this, in conjuntion with the quotes shows that Bilbo didn't think the last question was a real riddle.
It is purely my opinion that he would have changed the question if Gollum had insisted that it wasn't a riddle (if he had said: "Well Precious, it cheats it does, so lets uss eatses it" or something like).

[Greenwood]

Annaheru,

Yes, but both of these quotes are after the end of the Riddle Game and are part of the new significance Tolkien is giving the Ring in preparation for the publication of LOTR. In the first version the question and how Bilbo arrived at it are written in exactly the same way as in the later rewritten version. Tolkien clearly did not write it with the idea that the Ring was influencing Bilbo to cheat. The two versions are identical in how the last question came about. Biblo didn't mean the question to be his next riddle, but since Gollum was willing to accept it if given three chances and since Bilbo had nothing else in mind, he went with it. There is no evidence for an influence of the Ring on Bilbo in generating that last question.

[Annaheru]

I never said the Ring influenced Bilbo to cheat. I said that Bilbo allowed the question to stand when gollum accepted it (by asking for extra guesses), and later felt guilty about it because he knew it really wasn't a fair question. The Ring later used his guilt as an opening.The point is that Bilbo's guilt ia a sure indicator that it wasn't a fair question, but the context tells us that he never meant to cheat.

[frenchteacher]

Annaheru,

Yes, but both of these quotes are after the end of the Riddle Game and are part of the new significance Tolkien is giving the Ring in preparation for the publication of LOTR. In the first version the question and how Bilbo arrived at it are written in exactly the same way as in the later rewritten version. Tolkien clearly did not write it with the idea that the Ring was influencing Bilbo to cheat. The two versions are identical in how the last question came about. Biblo didn't mean the question to be his next riddle, but since Gollum was willing to accept it if given three chances and since Bilbo had nothing else in mind, he went with it. There is no evidence for an influence of the Ring on Bilbo in generating that last question.
I agree with that. But in France authors claim exactly the opposite. They are under the influence of LOTR and they don't read TH as a piece apart. They explian that there is an influence of the ring on Bilbo, as soon as Bilbo has the ring.

About riddles, by the way, the famous one is Oedipe'riddle. Is there an influence in Tolkien's works from Exeter ?

Bye

[Alcuin]

...in France authors claim exactly the opposite. They are under the influence of LOTR and they don't read TH as a piece apart. They explian that there is an influence of the ring on Bilbo, as soon as Bilbo has the ring. They make this claim because Tolkien makes it in LotR as narrator in the Prologue. Once the tale commences, Gandalf tells Frodo that he was suspicious because the Ring had an unwholesome effect on Bilbo from the beginning: he lied to Thorin & Co about how he obtained it.

You are correct, The Hobbit was written as a free-standing book for Tolkien’s children. Apparently his son Michael kept correcting him as he told stories (along the lines of “But you said something else last time!”). Tolkien wrote this one down. It was loaned to a friend in hospital, and from there to a student interning at Allen & Unwin, the publisher.

Allen & Unwin published the book after Sir Stanley Unwin’s 10-year old son Rayner liked it. The book was quite popular, with requests for more books about hobbits. From that, of course, came Lord of the Rings after 12 years of writing.

The background and characters in the book came from Tolkien’s philological tinkerings with his experimental language, Quenya, which he was using both as an entertaining hobby and as a way to study real languages by altering it with his theories about language. (The importance of philology – the interplay of language and history and how languages change over time – to the whole of Tolkien’s body of work cannot be underestimated. It was one of the primary driving creative forces in his work.)

In the introduction to Letter 165, Tolkien is quoted as saying that he regretted dressing it up for children. In Letter 163 to the author W.H. Auden, he says that The Hobbit was originally unconnected to the rest of his work. You should probably take a long look at Letter 163. Letter 215, to Walter Allen, will also be of interest to you, because he discusses children and their reactions to The Hobbit, at least as he perceived them at the time. He discusses this again, but not so directly, in Letter 234 to his aunt, Jane Neave. There are a great number of other references in The Letters of JRR Tolkien that you will probably find useful, especially if you are trying to tease apart The Hobbit from Lord of the Rings.

I think you should make perfectly clear what you are doing right at the beginning of your book. It’s your book, and how you write it is your business, but I think that you will have to cover these aspects among others:

That Tolkien actually wrote it for children;
That it was intended as a “stand-alone” piece;
That because of this, in its original version it contains what appear to be “flaws” in comparison with the rest of Tolkien’s corpus, reinforcing your claim;
How it differs radically in tone and scope from the rest of Tolkien’s material.
I think I’d focus very hard on the original version, if I could, and then show how Tolkien altered it to make it fit into his requirements for a sequel to the story.

About riddles, by the way, the famous one is Oedipe'riddle. Is there an influence in Tolkien's works from Exeter ?He was of course familiar with the Exeter Book, but he claims he wrote all the riddles himself in Letter 110 to Allen & Unwin. Letters 54 & 90 both discuss Exeter, but in different context from the riddles.

[frenchteacher]

Alcuin

That' right! Exactly my point of view ! Your suggestions are correct. Thank you for the references to The Letters. They are not yet translated into French, but I got them on the web.
They make this claim because Tolkien makes it in LotR as narrator in the Prologue.
Exact! I am studying The Hobbit with my pupils actually. This morning, as they read LOTR or only saw the film, they didn't understand what I was explaining : They said that The Hobbit was resumed at the beginning of LOTR, and I said no, it's not exactly the same. Tolkien rewrote. And then he manipulated facts. ;)

Thank you very much. You understand what is my project. I want to prove that The Hobbit is a tale for children. Then in an other book, I will compare The Hobbit to LOTR, but it's not my idea actually.

Bye. :)

Franch Teacher

[Greenwood]

I never said the Ring influenced Bilbo to cheat. I said that Bilbo allowed the question to stand when gollum accepted it (by asking for extra guesses), and later felt guilty about it because he knew it really wasn't a fair question. The Ring later used his guilt as an opening.The point is that Bilbo's guilt ia a sure indicator that it wasn't a fair question, but the context tells us that he never meant to cheat.But in The Hobbit I see no evidence for Bilbo feeling guilty about his last question. In both versions, Bilbo knew it wasn't really a riddle, that is why he granted Gollum's request for three guesses (which also did not fit the rules of the game) and he did not object to Gollum slipping in a fourth guess. Bilbo didn't do any of this because of guilt; he did it because he was in a tight spot and couldn't think of anything else. In the second version, Bilbo's concern: "And after all that last question had not been a genuine riddle according to the ancient laws." was not because of guilt, but rather because he did not trust Gollum: "But he felt he could not trust this slimy thing to keep any promise at a pinch. any excuse would do for him to slide out of it."

It seems to me one could make a stronger case for Bilbo "cheating" and thus feeling guilty, in the first version rather than the second. Not because of the inappropriateness of the last question, but because in the first version Gollum meant to reward Bilbo with the Ring when he lost the game, however, Bilbo already had the Ring in his possession and rather than telling Gollum he had found it, he used Gollum's inability to give him a present as a way to get Gollum to lead him out.

Even in the first version, after Bilbo gets out of the tunnels and rejoins the dwarves, he keeps the Ring a secret and leaves that out of the account of his encounter with Gollum he tells the dwarves. There is no suggestion in the book that this is out of guilt or any evil influences.

In LOTR, I don't see that the Ring needed any "opening" to exert and evil influence on its possessor. The Ring is inherently evil and will corrupt anyone who possesses it. Yes, it may work faster on some than others, but all the evidence is that no one in Middle Earth would be immune to it, or would need to give it an opening. Even Sam, in his own simple way probably the noblest character in the story is reluctant to give it back to Frodo after his short possession of it.


frenchteacher,

I can only agree with what Alcuin has already said. The Hobbit is indeed a stand alone piece and it is a children's story.

[Annaheru]

As for Bilbo's guilt, I think there is indirect evidence in his making up a cover story. And in LoTR Bilbo is extremely touching on the point of his 'right' to the Ring: the claim that he cheated upsets him greatly.


Let's compare this situation to one of our ancient games: chess. In chess, you accidently make an illegal move with a knight, your opponent accepts it, and you let it go. As a direct result you win the game, and a very valuable prize. Would you feel guilty? I think this is close to Bilbo's situation, he accidently though out loud, his opponent accepted his thoughts as a part of the game, and as a result Bilbo won.

[Greenwood]

As for Bilbo's guilt, I think there is indirect evidence in his making up a cover story.But in neither version of The Hobbit does Bilbo "make up a cover story". In both versions, after he rejoins the dwarves he keeps the Ring secret by not telling them about it. You could call it a sin of omission, rather than a sin of commission. Up to this point in the story the dwarves have not thought very highly of his skills. They are now much impressed by his abilities; especially when he manages to "sneak" into their camp past Balin on guard duty. This is the apparent reason for his keeping the Ring secret; there is no evidence of a guilty conscience at work.

And in LoTR Bilbo is extremely touchy on the point of his 'right' to the Ring: the claim that he cheated upsets him greatly.Yes, but now you are talking about LOTR, not The Hobbit.

Let's compare this situation to one of our ancient games: chess. In chess, you accidently make an illegal move with a knight, your opponent accepts it, and you let it go. As a direct result you win the game, and a very valuable prize. Would you feel guilty? I think this is close to Bilbo's situation, he accidently though out loud, his opponent accepted his thoughts as a part of the game, and as a result Bilbo won.You have given an example of a situation where someone might feel guilty. It is not evidence that Bilbo felt guilty in The Hobbit.

[Alcuin]

As for Bilbo's guilt, I think there is indirect evidence in his making up a cover story. And in LoTR Bilbo is extremely touching on the point of his 'right' to the Ring: the claim that he cheated upsets him greatly.Good point. Bilbo is immediately less than honest to Thorin & Co. about how he escaped, and later he is less than forthcoming with Gandalf about the riddle game. True, it is wise to tell less than you know (oops!), but Gandalf is deeply unsettled about honest Bilbo’s sudden reluctance to tell the whole truth about his precious treasure.

In retrospect, Bilbo never expressed a lack of guilt as much as a sense of relief: Gollum meant to kill him in any case, as Frodo observed. In fact – and this does relate more to LotR than to TH – Frodo is the only person who gets the Ring with no questions whatsoever about his legitimate ownership. (Sauron might dispute that, but Isildur assumed his rights in a hostile takeover.)

In any case, Gandalf held Bilbo guiltless, and his eventual surrender of the Ring (more LotR) reinforced his assessment.

[frenchteacher]

Hello.
The last question on this chapter. Has anyone an interpretation on the fact that Bilbo lost his buttons on the edge of the door ?
Thanks.

French Teacher

[Alcuin]

Bilbo lost his buttons on the edge of the doorMaybe he’s leaving behind the soft, refined, orderly and protected life he’s always known? I mean, he’s lost all the other symbols: his pipe, his pocket handkerchief, and his walking-stick.

When he left Rivendell – excuse me, the Last Homely House (there’s no “Rivendell” in the children’s story) – he steps over the Edge of the Wild. Now he’s literally passed through an underworld, the wildest and worst of the Wild, a journey through Goblin Town, the bogey-world of children. (Tolkien actually uses the word “orc” here, old English for demon – see Letter 144) He comes out the other side through the Back Door (no comment) completely stripped of all vestiges of his old life, respectable to the Dwarves (from then on, their opinion of him began to rise), trusting to his wits and his luck – something he had never done before. The goblins are left to gather up his gold buttons (in effect, he’s paying them for passage), and he is new hobbit, not the same that ran out Bag End without his pocket handkerchief.

Do we pass?? Do we get a mention in the book?

[frenchteacher]

Thank you. I think that the passage where Bilbo leaves the goblins' mountain resembles to the one when he leaves his smial. Bilbo was not a hero before. Bilbo now is not yet a hero but Bilbo has changed.
But " buttons" is a word employed through TH. His grand-father - i think - had mafic buttons. Gandalf says that he is received as if he was selling buttons at the door. Later in chapter 6 bilbo says a lot on his buttons.

A mention in my book : with pleasure !!!
Actually, I am in the middle of chapter 5, 230 pages , 290000 caracters. :p

At your service

French Teacher

[frenchteacher]

Hello,
One more question.
Do you say in English " the string of Ariadne " ?
Because Gollum acts as Ariadne to show the exit to Bilbo.

:):):)

At your service

French Teacher

[Alcuin]

Do you say in English " the string of Ariadne " ?We usually use the phrase, "the thread of Ariadne." That is typically how the story is retold in English, though of course there are many variants. I’m afraid I don’t know Greek (hence the line in Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar, “It’s Greek to me,” which has been getting laughs for 400 years), so I cannot tell you what the original phrase is.

Ariadne gave Theseus the thread (string) to go in alone so that he could then follow it out. Gollum is acting more as an unwitting guide.

By the way, we would normally say, “Ariadne gave Theseus a ball of string,” and then describe Theseus’ escape from the Labyrinth as, “Theseus followed the thread of Ariadne.” I don’t know why. (Tolkien would.) The phrase “ball of thread” is used, too, but I believe most people would instinctively use “ball of string.” For a heavier material, we might say, “ball of yarn” or even “ball of rope,” although what we call “rope” (like Sam’s elven rope) we would normally coil, and we often coil yarn, too. But a cursory glance at the written material on Theseus and the Minotaur, along with the idiomatic uses of the phrases, leads me to say “a ball of string” but “the thread of Ariadne.”

Other participants in the forum may be good enough to share their impressions with you.

Bonne chance!

[Eledhwen]

Ancalagon asked if Bilbo cheated, and many answers, both yes and no followed; but it seems that Bilbo's conscience was a problem for him, and he probably considered himself to be a cheat, deep down. He dealt with the problem by concocting a cock and bull story to convince others and to put his ownership of the Ring beyond doubt - a story he had to put right at the Council of Elrond several decades later.

[Hobbit-queen]

Bilbo did twist his words a little...but he did what I would've done. I wouldn't want to become this things lunch...I want to keep my life, and if lying helps, I'll do it!

[e.Blackstar]

Deinitely unfair. But who cares? :rolleyes:

[Aglarband]

Deinitely unfair. But who cares? :rolleyes:
Cuz we all love Bilbo sooooo much. He cheated, but he did it with style and grace.

[Eledhwen]

Bilbo asked the "pockets" question of himself, while his mind was blank with terror. If he couldn't think of a riddle, he was dead.

And then Gollum, overhearing Bilbo's question, accepted it as a riddle.

What would you have done?

All's fair in love and war; and with Bilbo's life as the trophy for this game; this was war.

The wager itself was unfair: Bilbo's life if he lost; Gollum to act as guide if he lost. It's like the difference between crossing a 1,000 ft deep canyon on a six inch wide plank, or crossing a one foot deep hole. Bilbo had the canyon, Gollum had the hole. Terror would affect Bilbo's mental ability in the task, but Gollum unwittingly evened up the game a little when he accepted Bilbo's question as a riddle.

[Bucky]

Yeah, what Eledhwen said...

Bilbo was just speaking aloud; Gollum misinterpretted it & freaked out so Bilbo 'ran with the ball', so to speak........
As he was pretty much out of riddles, it really wasn't even a matter of cheating as Gollum jumped right in & said "three guesses".

If Bilbo hadn't taken his hands out of his 'pocketses' would Gollum have not eaten him?

Case closed. :cool: