What if Gollum won the riddle game?

[ssgrif]

I mentioned this in another thread but I thought that it deserved more attention as a new thread.

Ok, a discussion is underway on whether or not Bilbo cheated during the riddle game in "The Hobbit" against Gollum, by asking a question and not a riddle.

See the thread Riddle or Question (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=2845&highlight=riddle)

What do you think would have happened if Gollum didn't accept the question "whats in my pockets" as a valid riddle.

Do you think Gollum would have got the Ring of Power back? Maybe Bilbo still escapes and Frodo still gets to go on his quest with the Fellowship? Maybe Gollum, over time, learns how to use the Ring? Maybe Bilbo escapes by killing Gollum in some way? What would happen at the end of ROTK if Gollum was dead?



Whats your opinions?

[Gothmog]

If Gollum had not accepted the question (which was not at first directed at him as Bilbo was just thinking aloud), then Bilbo would have tried to think of another riddle which Gollum might or might not have answered.

[Harad]

If Gollum won the riddle game then he would expect to eat Bilbo. Bilbo had not really agreed to this and would fight. Bilbo might very well win since he had Sting.

Then Bilbo would have had to find his way out without Gollum.

1. He does. The Hobbit goes on as before. The Ring stays in the Shire for even longer since Gollum is no longer around to spill the beans to Sauron. The War of the Ring is postponed.

2. He doesnt. Bilbo is killed in the Goblin caves and the Ring gets its wish to be found by Goblins and then Sauron. Bad news for ME.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Harad
If Gollum won the riddle game then he would expect to eat Bilbo. Bilbo had not really agreed to this and would fight. Bilbo might very well win since he had Sting.

Then Bilbo would have had to find his way out without Gollum.

1. He does. The Hobbit goes on as before. The Ring stays in the Shire for even longer since Gollum is no longer around to spill the beans to Sauron. The War of the Ring is postponed.

2. He doesnt. Bilbo is killed in the Goblin caves and the Ring gets its wish to be found by Goblins and then Sauron. Bad news for ME.



Yes that is right. I think that gollum would've died trying to have a go at Bilbo. But if he couldn't have found his ring i'm not to sure he would have had a go at him. Her wouldn't have gone near him since bilbo could see him and he had sting. I think goolum would have feld and stayed in his island until he thought that bilbo had his ring and then knife or not he would have fled after him trying for his thrpught in the end maybe getting himself killed. Bilbo would never had found his way back by himself no way in the world. He would have probably been caught by the goblins not knowing what the ring could do and been tortured for the death of the great captain.

[imladris]

then he would probably try to eat bilbo, but iGuess that he would not win because he has sting.
If he had killed gollem, Sam and Frodo would get stuck when they were prretty far (gollem leads them thru the swamp).
And then Frodo would never throw the ring in mount doom.

[ssgrif]

As Hobbits are not an aggresive species by nature, I dont think that Bilbo would have killed Gollum after losing the Riddle game, except maybe through self defence.

This leaves two scenarios:

1. Bilbo gets captured by the Goblins, and tortured as Beleg so rightly stated.

2. Bilbo miraculously finds the way out, and heads off as normal. The Ring goes back to the Shire, and is handed over to Frodo. The Ring is taken to Rivendell, through Moria, much as it did before, and all the way to Mount Doom, without much struggle (would make TTT a bit boring to read). Frodo has no enemy to fight with at the top of Mount Doom, so Frodo keeps the Ring, and he turns bitter and twisted the same as Gollum did.

Frodo goes and hides out in a cave, after being expelled from Hobbiton, living on a diet of fish, with his "Preciouss" and having his life prolonged by the Ring.

One day, he loses the ring and a curious hobbit finds the ring whilst trying to escape some goblins. the hobbit wins a game of riddle with the weird looking Bilbo, and takes the ring back to the Shire.

After a number of years back in the Shire, the hobbit, hands the ring to his heir, who takes on the task of taking the ring to Mount Doom to be destroyed.

He meets up with some people in Rivendell, they walk off and start their adventure.

Bilbo gets captured by Sauron, who then dispatches the nine, and the whole story starts off again.

You cant change fate I guess!

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by ssgrif
As Hobbits are not an aggresive species by nature, I dont think that Bilbo would have killed Gollum after losing the Riddle game, except maybe through self defence.

This leaves two scenarios:

1. Bilbo gets captured by the Goblins, and tortured as Beleg so rightly stated.

2. Bilbo miraculously finds the way out, and heads off as normal. The Ring goes back to the Shire, and is handed over to Frodo. The Ring is taken to Rivendell, through Moria, much as it did before, and all the way to Mount Doom, without much struggle (would make TTT a bit boring to read). Frodo has no enemy to fight with at the top of Mount Doom, so Frodo keeps the Ring, and he turns bitter and twisted the same as Gollum did.

Frodo goes and hides out in a cave, after being expelled from Hobbiton, living on a diet of fish, with his "Preciouss" and having his life prolonged by the Ring.

One day, he loses the ring and a curious hobbit finds the ring whilst trying to escape some goblins. the hobbit wins a game of riddle with the weird looking Bilbo, and takes the ring back to the Shire.

After a number of years back in the Shire, the hobbit, hands the ring to his heir, who takes on the task of taking the ring to Mount Doom to be destroyed.

He meets up with some people in Rivendell, they walk off and start their adventure.

Bilbo gets captured by Sauron, who then dispatches the nine, and the whole story starts off again.

You cant change fate I guess!



Who knows eh??? But tolkien would have made it exciting and interesting all the same.

[YayGollum]

You are all wrong. If he won he would have tried to eat Bilbo, then
1. Bilbo would try to defend himself, but because Gollum's so great he would still be able to kill and eat him. He would find the Ring in the nasssty hobbits pocket and just be mad about it and stay and eat fish.
2. There is no number 2! Mine is the definitive answer!

[Eonwe]

Maybe Gollum eats Bilbo, accidently eats the Ring at the same time, then runs around with it burning in his stomach, nobody can catch him or kill him because of the power of the Ring, then eventually Aragorn is born, he hooks up with Arwen, slowly Gollum gets near to Rivendell, Elrond and Aragorn go out to catch Gollum, Bill the Pony smokes him out of the waterfall where Gollum is drinking to make his tummy feel better, Aragorn is bitten by Gollum in the chest, but Bill the Pony kills Gollum and dies at the same time, Elrond cuts the Ring out of Gollums stomach (its ok he's dead he can't feel it) then as they bring Aragorn back to Rivendell, he is almost dead but Arwen says wait for me, he dies then she dies, then they meet in the halls of Mandos, and Arwen sings to Mandos and gets him to send them back, and then they live for a while longer in ME, then they both die and pass away, then Bilbo comes back to claim the Ring, then Bilbo finds the Ring burns his hand so he throws it into the sea, and ever after sings about how much he misses the Ring.

Wow thats just like the Sil. U R brilliant YayGollum! :)

[Grond]

Eonwe, it is apparent that your mind is floating around in the wrong age of Middle-earth. As for the question at hand... there would be a dead Hobbit!

[YayGollum]

Wait, I'm brilliant? I thought you came up with the Sil./Gollum story! I don't mind being called brilliant though. Grond, by dead hobbit you mean Bilbo, right?

[Grond]

YayGollum, my answer was meant to be open ended since both Bilbo and Gollum are technically Hobbits... but if I was a betting man, the nice, little Hobbittses that would be dead on the floor would be Bilbo. Gollum was more skilled in the craft of murder that was young Bilbo. :)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Grond
YayGollum, my answer was meant to be open ended since both Bilbo and Gollum are technically Hobbits... but if I was a betting man, the nice, little Hobbittses that would be dead on the floor would be Bilbo. Gollum was more skilled in the craft of murder that was young Bilbo. :)


I beleive heb would have waited for Bilbo to turn his back then hw ould have striked. But otherwsie he would die or he wouldn't try and kill him.

[PRH]

Oh it would've been Gollum killing Bilbo. It was basically pitch black in the cave, Bilbo couldn't see but Gollum could. He would have squeeeeeezed it. It would have been crunchable. Sting wouldn't have helped at all once Gollum's fingers were around Bilbo's throat (from behind). He was in prime shape with the orc imps he would periodically squeeze.

[YayGollum]

Gollum could have dodged Bilbo's pitiful strokes with Sting! He would have just jumped like a frog over his head and grappled him from behind! Bilbo would have been scrumptiously chrunchable to be exact! :D

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Gollum could have dodged Bilbo's pitiful strokes with Sting! He would have just jumped like a frog over his head and grappled him from behind! Bilbo would have been scrumptiously chrunchable to be exact! :D




Yea it could happen??:) :) :D :D ;) :D

[Illuvatar]

Probably the options are:
1:Bilbo is killed and eaten by Gollum, Sauron captures Gollum, ME is lost.
2:Bilbo escapes, is killed by goblins, the ring is taken by goblins, Sauron finds it, ME is lost.
3:Bilbo escapes, adventure continues as normal, Frodo inherits the ring, goes on the quest, is relatively unlooked for, gets lost in the Emyn Muil, wanders until lembasruns out, they die, the ring is taken by some animal, and is found after Sauron annihilates the army of Gondor at the Last Battle, before the Morannon, ME is lost.
4:Bilbo escapes completely, the Hobbit proceeds as normal. Frodo inherits the ring, makes his way to the Emyn Muil, miraculously finds a way out, sinks into the Dead Marshes, where it lies forevermore, even after Sauron defeats Gondor at the last battle in front of the Morannon. ME is lost, though not so dramatically.
5:Bilbo escapes completely, the Hobbit proceeds normally, Frodo inherits the ring, makes it miraculously through the Emyn Muil AND the Dead Marshes, tries to get through the Black Gate, is captured, ME is lost.
6:Bilbo escapes completely, the Hobbit proceeds normally. Frodo inherits the ring, and since there are no orcs ambushing them, the company does not fall apart. Aragorn leads them through Cirith Ungol and through Mordor. Gollum does not attack, Frodo keeps the ring for himself, is found by the Nazgûl, Sauron gets the ring, ME is lost.

Any way you look at it, Sauron either gets the ring, or takes over ME without it. :(

[Saermegil]

6:Bilbo escapes completely, the Hobbit proceeds normally. Frodo inherits the ring, and since there are no orcs ambushing them, the company does not fall apart. Aragorn leads them through Cirith Ungol and through Mordor. Gollum does not attack, Frodo keeps the ring for himself, is found by the Nazgûl, Sauron gets the ring, ME is lost.

When Boromir tries to get the ring, Frodo goes back to the rest of the fellowship, they tie up boromir for a while but then forgive him and think hes back in his right mind. Later Boromir steals the ring, heads to Mordor and chalenges Sauron. he probably loses and Sauron gets the ring.
OR
They kick Boromir out of their company, and him, being away from the ring is not so corrupted any more and heads back home. Aragorn though, as they get closer to Mount Doom, is more corrupted and finally asks rodo for the ring. then Frodo gives it to him, aragorn wears it and challenges Sauron.Gandalf tries to stop him, gandalf breaks his oath tothew Valar by using a great force of "magic". being already an "outlaw", he decides to wear the ring . he defeats Sauron and becomes the new ruler of ME.Sweeet :D

[Hikaru]

Glad I put my glass of wine down before I read this. A little of it went up my nose anyway.
Pardon a newbie for jumping in, but I think YayGollum is right. Dead Hobbit. Our man Smeagol eating fissssshes. End of story.

[Saermegil]

Your welcome to chip in, everybody is. But see, we cant have just one truth in a "what if " scenario. Everybody can just use his imagination.

[Illuvatar]

Glad I put my glass of wine down before I read this. A little of it went up my nose anyway.
Pardon a newbie for jumping in, but I think YayGollum is right. Dead Hobbit. Our man Smeagol eating fissssshes. End of story.
I don't think that's the most likely, because the same thing would have happened. Bilbo would have accidentaly put on the ring, like happened in the first place.

[Hikaru]

Your welcome to chip in, everybody is. But see, we cant have just one truth in a "what if " scenario. Everybody can just use his imagination.

Operative words in my original post..."I think". It was just my opinion.
Of course there isn't only one interpretation...that's why discussing these or any other good books is so much fun!

[Morgan LeFay]

Didn't Sauron find out about Baggins having the Ring from Gollum? If Gollum is dead, then he could not be captured and taken to the Barad-Dur. Well, Sauron propably would find out about Bilbo and Frodo the other way, but it could be more difficult for him. Hey, aren't there only three people who know about Bilbo's treasure? Bilbo, Gandalf and Gollum. Gollum is dead. Gandalf wouldn't let himself to be caught. And Sauron don't remember about Hobbits. Wow, it would be much easier if Bilbo killed Gollum...

[Holly]

Then he would try to eat Bilbo. :rolleyes:

[Inderjit S]

I think such a 'what if' question as to Bilbo killing Gollum is unworkable into the storyline.

Also remember, disrepancies aside, Bilbo came to the ring through pity-what if he had been merciless and killed Gollum outright? Who knows how he would have turned out like.

[Ireth Telrúnya]

If Gollum had won the riddle game, and though Bilbo had been able to escape in spite of that, Gollum would have eventually ended up in the hands of the Dark Lord in Mordor and all would have been lost. Worst case scenario.

[bilbo_baggins55]

I think Bilbo would have escaped from Gollum, wether he had to kill him or not. As for finding his way out of the cave, I believe Gandalf would have won the argument with the Dwarves and they would have went back into the cave to rescue Bilbo, if there was anything left of him :eek:

[Hikaru]

That's what is questionable....whether or not there would have been anything left of Bilbo. Knowing our friend Gollum, I think we're talking Hobbit sashimi here.

[pipin]

then he would probably try to eat bilbo, but iGuess that he would not win because he has sting.
If he had killed gollem, Sam and Frodo would get stuck when they were prretty far (gollem leads them thru the swamp).
And then Frodo would never throw the ring in mount doom.

bilbo didnt have sting intil after didnt he? I havent read the book for awhile

[bilbo_baggins55]

That's what is questionable....whether or not there would have been anything left of Bilbo. Knowing our friend Gollum, I think we're talking Hobbit sashimi here.

I think Gandalf probably would have gone after Bilbo soon anyway, whether the dwarves were going or not, and fresh off killing the Capt., he could have saved him in time, because Bilbo still had the dagger (I think). :)

[frenchteacher]

If Gollum had won the riddle game, this hyphotesis is impossible ! Why? Because there will be no more story. THE END. The Hobbit is a tale for children, so Bilbo MUST win. Bilbo isn't yet a hero, he has to gain tests to become a real hero.
Bye :)

[Hammersmith]

Perhaps we're looking too far into the future.

Would Bilbo have surrendered the Arkenstone, or would he have burgled it, slunk away and allowed the five armies to butcher each other? War rages between the elves and the dwarves, the Fellowship would never come into being. The shire would probably be assaulted by dwarves as a natural ally of the elves. Either that or it would be ignored and largely left alone.

When Sauron the Necromancer declares himself, Gondor is well and truly alone. Aragorn would be in the north fighting the dwarves, perhaps even dead. Boromir and Faramir would fight and die against the might of Sauron and Gandalf would be faced with a definite choice: kill Bilbo and declare himself in opposition to Sauron, or fail utterly in his mission.

Also, Saruman would be searching for the ring, and perhaps hear of the Battle of Five Armies and the mysterious Arkenstone burglar. Might he second guess them all and capture Bilbo, the ring and ultimate power?

[Helm]

As Hobbits are not an aggresive species by nature, I dont think that Bilbo would have killed Gollum after losing the Riddle game, except maybe through self defence.

This leaves two scenarios:

1. Bilbo gets captured by the Goblins, and tortured as Beleg so rightly stated.

2. Bilbo miraculously finds the way out, and heads off as normal. The Ring goes back to the Shire, and is handed over to Frodo. The Ring is taken to Rivendell, through Moria, much as it did before, and all the way to Mount Doom, without much struggle (would make TTT a bit boring to read). Frodo has no enemy to fight with at the top of Mount Doom, so Frodo keeps the Ring, and he turns bitter and twisted the same as Gollum did.

Frodo goes and hides out in a cave, after being expelled from Hobbiton, living on a diet of fish, with his "Preciouss" and having his life prolonged by the Ring.

One day, he loses the ring and a curious hobbit finds the ring whilst trying to escape some goblins. the hobbit wins a game of riddle with the weird looking Bilbo, and takes the ring back to the Shire.

After a number of years back in the Shire, the hobbit, hands the ring to his heir, who takes on the task of taking the ring to Mount Doom to be destroyed.

He meets up with some people in Rivendell, they walk off and start their adventure.

Bilbo gets captured by Sauron, who then dispatches the nine, and the whole story starts off again.

You cant change fate I guess!

Nice story, but sorry. (I'm a poet and I don't even know it) Frodo has no enemy to fight with at the top of Mount Doom, so Frodo keeps the Ring, exept Sauron and he would have killed Frodo.

[baragund]

It seems to me if Bilbo lost the Riddle game, there would certainly have been some sort of struggle on the bank of Gollum's lake. (I'm assuming they would not have reached the famous "What have I got in my pocket?" question. For the sake of this discussion, I'm assuming Bilbo did not guess Gollum's "time" riddle.)

Gollum was getting ready to attack, kill and then eat Bilbo (Yuck!!). Bilbo might try to defend himself with Sting but it would be difficult for him to display enough skill with that weapon to fend off someone as clever, as nimble and as wiry as Gollum given the way Tolkien portrayed Bilbo up to that point in the book. To me, the most likely scenario, if one were to take a "real life" view, would be that Gollum would kill Bilbo, and then recover the Ring while he was preparing his dinner of fillet of Bilbo :p . But then, as French Teacher pointed out, there would not be much story. The Ring goes back to the status quo of the previous 500 years.

On the other hand, Bilbo could possibly win the struggle. Let's say they were grappling on the ground. Bilbo could certainly pick up a rock or something and bash Gollum over the head with it. Then he would still have the problem of escaping from the tunnels. He could wander around and find the way out by accident, or he could get recaptured by the Goblins and have all sorts of new misadventures. Along the way, he may or may not discover the Ring's ability to make him invisible.

...my two cents :)

[Ingwë]

I think if Bilbo lost the Riddle game he would be eaten by Gollum. But Bilbo would try defending himself and then the battle would be great. If Bilbo lost that battle he would lost everything - his life. If he win he will have freedom again but Gollum would not show him the way out because he would be dead. :)
But I think Bilbo would win because he is stronger and he possesses the Ring. He would disappear and then kill Gollum although Gollum can sniff at the air.

[baragund]

Ingwe, do you really think Bilbo could beat Gollum in a fight, given how Tolkien portrayed both of them up to that point? Bilbo, to me, was portrayed as outwardly soft and fussy. Gollum, on the other hand, was able to throttle goblins who happened to wander into his territory.

Also, Bilbo had no idea what the Ring could do. The Ring's powers did not dawn on him until the ring accidentally slipped on his finger and Gollum passed him in the tunnels.

[Morohtar]

I don't think much would have changed if Bilbo would have lost the riddle game. Gollum didn't help Bilbo, even though Bilbo won the contest, and Gollum was going to kill him regardless of the outcome. It was simply fate (or good storytelling ;)) that allowed Bilbo to escape. If Bilbo had lost, Gollum would have attacked, Bilbo would have "accidently" slipped the ring on, and Gollum would have led him out unknowingly.

That's my best guess though. I just figure that since Gollum attacked even though he lost, he would definitely attack if he had won

[Annaheru]

I think it's highly possible that Bilbo could have killed gollum, then while wandering in the caves Gandalf would have found him (he was going to come back for him if you remember), they may or may not get out alive. If they do the story continues as before, but Bilbo would have more quickly been devoured by the Ring because of how he would have started his ownership (like gollum, and the whole sooner or later premise surrounding the Rings). He never gives it up, never has a heir, when gollum leaves the mts he gets captured same as before, and the Nazgul find a little wraith waiting for them in Bag End. Sauron recovers treasure. Start Black Years.

[Alcuin]

I think it's highly possible that Bilbo could have killed gollum, then while wandering in the caves Gandalf would have found him (he was going to come back for him if you remember), they may or may not get out alive. If they do the story continues as before, but Bilbo would have more quickly been devoured by the Ring because of how he would have started his ownership (like gollum, and the whole sooner or later premise surrounding the Rings). He never gives it up, never has a heir, when gollum leaves the mts he gets captured same as before, and the Nazgul find a little wraith waiting for them in Bag End. Sauron recovers treasure. Start Black Years.Gollum can't leave the mountains in this scenario. He's dead, and Bilbo is back at Bag End looking for nice fissssh in the pantry, Precious. All else as Annaheru describes.

[Annaheru]

oops right, o well. . .:o

[Ingwë]

Ingwë, do you really think Bilbo could beat Gollum in a fight, given how Tolkien portrayed both of them up to that point?
Yes, I think. He has a sword - The Sting. Жилото. He could kill Gollum.

Gollum, on the other hand, was able to throttle goblins who happened to wander into his territory.
Gollum is strong, but he kill goblins while he is using the Ring. But Bilbo have found the One Ring. Gollum doesn`t possessthe Ring. He is visible. Bilbo may become invisible (destiny).