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Goldberry
02-23-2002, 04:40 AM
In RoTK, Many Partings, when Aragorn says farewell to Celeborn:
'But Celeborn said: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"'

I'm guessing he meant Arwen. I guess we must assume that since Arwen spent many years in Lorien, there is a special bond between her and Celeborn. I think it is odd that Tolkien had Celeborn say these words, and not Elrond.

Elrond was still with the travelers, yet no mention is made here of Aragorn saying any special words of farewell to Elrond (or Gandalf, for that matter).

Harad
02-23-2002, 04:50 AM
He may be referring to Arwen, Elrond and the Elves' treasure. She will not remain with the Elves until the end, but will remain with Aragorn until his end.

I dont see any mention of Aragorn or Arwen seeing Elrond again before he departs ME.

Eonwe
02-23-2002, 05:04 AM
I thought he was talking about Galadriel, he knew she was leaving ME, and he was staying.

Harad
02-23-2002, 05:06 AM
Celeborn left...eventually...?

Eonwe
02-23-2002, 05:18 AM
Don't remember exactly but, I know he was with Thranduil for a while, he was lord of the south part of Greenwood (Mirkwood), and then he went to Rivendell to stay with the sons of Elrond (who chose mortality).

Harad
02-23-2002, 05:22 AM
sons of Elrond (who chose mortality).

thats wild and wacky. I did not know that.

Thorin
02-23-2002, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Eonwe
[B the sons of Elrond (who chose mortality). [/B]

Hmmm....Where is that mentioned?

Another interesting question....

Why didn't Celeborn leave with the rest? Sure he was born and raised on ME, but there was no use for him there anymore and knowing that he would be with his little hotty, Galadriel in the promised land should have been some motivation for him...

Harad
02-23-2002, 05:44 AM
Where did all the Elves go? The wood-elves, especially? I havent seen one in years.

aragil
02-23-2002, 06:18 AM
Hey, now I can be the guy quoting from letters. Whee!

Letter # 153, p.193:

Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

It would probably be a bit hasty to say what happened to the two brothers. As of September 1954 (the latest writing I know of) Tolkien had not made up his mind. Celeborn passed over the sea after staying sometime with Elrond's sons. i'm sure I've read this (or was it only a dream?) but cannot find the reference right now.

Here's what it says in LotR appendix B:

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.

ps Thorin, UT indicates that Celeborn was one of the Teleri of Aman, and that he and Galadriel came over separate of the Noldor. Why he didn't leave with Galadriel is a good question, though.

Eonwe
02-23-2002, 03:03 PM
Yes sorry! Yet another @#$%ing Robert Foster scar on my brain:

"Elladan and Elrohir remained in Imladris long into the Fourth Age, and since they did not accompany Elrond over Sea they seem to have chosen to become mortal"

which of course is completely made up.

The only good thing about Foster is what he says about Celeborn:

"Although Celeborn was an Elven-Lord of great fame and was called Celeborn the Wise, in LoTR he does not seem especially bright"

HAHA!

Also regarding Elladan and Elrohir:

1) They were very close to the Dunedain, many references to them fighting with Aragorn and his kin (including Arathorn).

2) The reason why I started another thread Ticket to AMAN! was that I was trying to reconcile Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli and Sam going over sea. Arwen specifically says that he can go in her place: "A gift I will give to you. For I am the daughter of Elrond. I shall not go with him now when he departs to the Havens; for mine is the choice of Luthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter. But in my stead you shall go, Ring-bearer, when the time comes, and if you then desire it." She says that he can go in her place and that this is a gift for him. So how did Sam, Bilbo and Gimli go? My answer was that Elladan and Elrohir chose like their sister which allowed Sam and Bilbo to go. The only one I could think of choosing mortality after this was Elessar. But in LoTR it says as the last note in the Red Book that perhaps Galadriel obtained this grace for Gimli.

But I made it all up.

Greenwood
02-23-2002, 03:28 PM
'But Celeborn said: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"'

Goldberry

You have to look at that quote in context. Immediately before it Galadriel says to Aragorn: "Elfstone, through darkness you have come to your hope, and have now all your desire. Use well the days!"

What was Aragorn's hope? To reunite the realms of Arnor and Gondor and restore the Kingship. Only in that way could he achieve his desire, to marry Arwen. In that context I read Celeborn's comment to refer, partially to Arwen, but mostly to the restored/reunited Kingdom and the Kingship. When you consider that one of the results of the destruction of the Ring is the end of Lothlorien (Celeborn's beloved realm), I believe it all fits. Both Galadriel and Celeborn are wishing him a successful and peaceful realm and reign until his death. It is a bittersweet thing for them since they had to loose Lothlorien for Aragorn to gain his kingdom.

Strider97
02-23-2002, 06:59 PM
Greenwood,
I think your right. I always thought Celeborn was refering to Aragorn spending time with Arwen since he was not going with Galadriel across the sea. Now I think it is a recognition that Aragorn's world was whole again while his was beginning to fail. Tolkien wove that theme of loss change and sadness throughout the text. Elrond made a similar statement to Strider I believe in the COE that if your task succeeds our live on Middle Earth will change forever. It makes sense here.

Beleg Strongbow
02-24-2002, 05:49 AM
Arwen is related to Celeborn. And i do wonder why he didn't pass over the sea. And i think the sons of elrond should have been elves since their mother was an elf and so was his father?? There are several versions of the life of galadreil and celeborn with one starting with his arising (celeborn) in aman and another with galadriel meeting him in Doriath. But their isn't any reason for celeborn to stay in M.E except maybe when they first lef (gal and cele) they wanted somewhere govern themselves but who knows why he really stayed???:confused: :confused:

Ståle
02-25-2002, 05:40 PM
I seem to recall a quote saying something like this: "To Elornd was given the choice of amongst which kindred he would be counted, and the same for his children: to pass with him into the West, or remain in Middle-Earth and become mortal"

Perhaps Elladan and Elrohir still had some bad blood with the Orcs who captured Celebrian their mother, and desired to remain and kill all Orcs possible.

Strider97
02-26-2002, 04:37 AM
Ståle,
The quote is from appendix a and is as follows," But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with himfrom the circles of the world ; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle Earth". Elrond, since he chose to be of Elven-kind as opposed to Elros who chose mankind, was granted the same privledge as the high elves, but his children must accompany them or perish in ME. Celeborn I believe was a high elf and always retained his choice as to when to travel over the sea.

Goro Shimura
02-26-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Eonwe
So how did Sam, Bilbo and Gimli go? My answer was that Elladan and Elrohir chose like their sister which allowed Sam and Bilbo to go.

Eonwe...

Excellent theory!! Even it isn't provable beyond a shadow of a doubt... it's still a beautiful idea. It has a certain tidyness to it....

Bucky
02-28-2002, 06:48 AM
I was always under the impression that Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol & never saw the Light of The Two Trees.

That would make him a member of the Sindar, not a High Elf.

I think as one who had never seen Valinor, he was more attached to ME.

Maybe he wanted to finally be the boss instead of 2nd fiddle to his wife?

Harad
03-02-2002, 08:49 AM
Why ever would Gimli want to sail West? To be with his buddy Legolas? Not even Aragorn took that way out. The mortals who sailed West had some irreparable damage from the Ring. Even Sam might not fit in that category.

Tar-Palantir
03-02-2002, 11:51 AM
Yeah, Gimli going to Valinor always kind of bothered me. It says in Appendix B that it was thought that Galadriel may have had something to do with it - along with G & L's great friendship. Is that all it took to go? Why didn't Merry or Pippin get to go then?

Ståle
03-02-2002, 01:46 PM
Merry and Pippin were more friends with Aragorn and Eomer than Gimli and Legolas, really. Gimli and Legolas become better friends "than any Elf and Dwarf in the history of Middle-Earth". Also, when they left they were the only living members of the Fellowship left, as Merry and Pippin had died some 80 years earlier, and if I recall correctly, they left the same year as Aragorn died. I guess neither of them wanted to be alone, even if Legolas could hang out in Valinor.

Halasían
12-10-2004, 10:12 PM
In RoTK, Many Partings, when Aragorn says farewell to Celeborn:
'But Celeborn said: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"'

I'm guessing he meant Arwen. I guess we must assume that since Arwen spent many years in Lorien, there is a special bond between her and Celeborn. I think it is odd that Tolkien had Celeborn say these words, and not Elrond.

Elrond was still with the travelers, yet no mention is made here of Aragorn saying any special words of farewell to Elrond (or Gandalf, for that matter).
I always read this passage as Celeborn refering to Arwen remaining with Aragorn (Aragorn's treasure) whereas his treasure (Galadriel) would one day depart Middle Earth. As far as the doom.... I thought it was a context of 'path in life' vs 'death' because Celeborn was immortal and Aragorn mortal, so it was obvious in the context of death that their 'doom' would be quite different.

Sharkey
12-10-2004, 11:09 PM
But Celeborn said: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"'

If we were to engage in wild guessing, we could say that those words mean Celeborn would never be leaving Middle-earth, and he and Galadriel would forever be sundered. ;)

Seriously though, it does not seem very characteristic and typical of a non-Avarin elf to even consider an option like remaining in M-e forever, since the inevitable end result would be fading. He would have departed from M-e some time in the Fourth Age probably, though there is no clear record when that was exactly.

In light of that, Celeborn's utterance above seems a bit exaggerated, does it not? After all, what are a couple hundred years (assuming that's how long he stuck around) to an elf?

alcesta
12-11-2004, 12:18 AM
She says that he can go in her place and that this is a gift for him. So how did Sam, Bilbo and Gimli go? My answer was that Elladan and Elrohir chose like their sister which allowed Sam and Bilbo to go.Sam and Bilbo could go as Ring-bearers, I don't think it has anything to do with Elladan and Elrohir; and as for Gimli and Legolas, I agree with Ståle and Tar-Palantir.