Isildur not entirely evil!

[Úlairi]

Isildur was not entirely evil for I remembered something I read in UT that Isildur was going to give the ring to one of the keepers of the Three Rings, preferably Elrond. What do you think would have happened if the disaster of the Gladden Fields did not occur and Elrond ended up getting the One Ring and furthermore what would happen if you wore one of the Three and the One at the same time???:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Harad]

"Isildur not entirely evil" is an inflammatory premise.

Isildur was the son of Elendil. He fought bravely in the Last Alliance and one way or another removed the Ring from Sauron sealing the temporary victory. If he had not done so, then Sauron would not have been vanquished for a time and the Last Alliance would have utterly failed.

Isildur was seduced by the power of the Ring and did not destroy the Ring when he had the chance. This was not "evil" nor did Isildur ever become evil.

Isildur saved the Ring from falling into the hands of the Orc attackers at the Gladden Fields. The notes in UT say that, in effect, Sauron lost the War of the Rings in that battle since that was his best and last chance at recovering the Ring.

Isildur was not "entirely evil." He was not "evil" at all.

[Úlairi]

:) :p Yes Harad, that is true. Isildur was not evil at all but sometimes my thoughts seem to dwell on the movie (which I have seen five times!) and when Isildur chose not to throw the ring into the Crack of Doom in Sammath Naur he did it evilly. I apologise but sometimes my thoughts return to the movie instead of the actual book. You are absolutely correct and I apologise for beginning a "false thread"!!! But I must say that Isildur did look like an evil character in the movie. Anyone agree???:( :( :(

[Harad]

I would say that Isildur looked "proud" in the movie and drawn to power. "Evil"? No.

[Gothmog]

In this question I totaly agree with Harad. Isildur not only fought bravely in the Last Alliance, but before that he fought against the Evil of Sauron in Numenor when he went alone and secretly to save a fruit of the White Tree, the seedling of which he carried with him to Middle-earth.

[Strider97]

Ilsidur had no evil in him. He was a hero and fought bravely in the last alliance. The evil that Ulari perceived in the movie is not from within Ilsidur but in the events his decision would later cause to occur. He could not forsee those long term consequences.

[aragil]

Even if Isildur could foresee future events, it is not clear to me that he could have broken away from the power of the ring.
I think that we all agree Boromir was not evil either. Yet he succombed to the power of the ring, and chased Frodo away from the Fellowship because of it. Frodo was not evil either, yet he too was overcome by the ring's corruption when he finally reached Sammath Naur. The corrupting influence of the ring is not to be taken lightly, and it affects both those who are good and those who are evil.

[Goldberry]

Also, the ring's power to corrupt the good increases dramatically as the ringbearer is in Mordor and approaches Mt. Doom. Frodo was resistant to the power of the ring, but then really felt its weight and pull in Mordor. I saw Frodo from the beginning of LoTR, understood his innate goodness and then saw it corrupted on Mt. Doom. That helped me to forgive the weaknesses of Isildur and Boromir, and understand they were good, not evil. (Proud, arrogant, stubborn - all those they were, but not evil). For someone like Gandalf not to even want to touch it, makes me believe there was no escaping its evil.

[daisy]

Ulairi - just wanted to say I appreciate you having the courage - or spunkiness- to take a risk and post a neat thread - sometimes this is hard to do because so many of the experts come in and crush you like a bug - trust me, I have experienced this myself - it is all in the name of fun and Tolkien love!!

daisy:)

[Eonwe]

hi Ulairi!

I think Isildur made a bad decision at Mount Doom, even after Elrond and Cirdan spoke to him about it. Somehow the Ring clouded his judgement, or he just didn't completely know/realize the evil involved.

Other than that, he tried very hard to help keep the line of the Kings around (stealing the fruit of the tree before Sauron had it burned in Numenor), making Minas Ithil so fair and strong, and not the least of his accomplishments was fighting alongside his father Elendil in front of the most evil thing in the world Sauron. And watching his father die after surviving the downfall of Numenor.

In UT DotGF, he seems so sorry about the whole thing, saying the Ring should go to the keepers of the three, that it caused him pain whenever he wore it, that he could not control its powers, that someone greater than he was needed to do that. And what an awful way to die, in the middle of nowhere with no help, he has to abandon his friends that are all dieing horribly against a fierce Orc onslaught. He swims Anduin, and the Ring comes off, then he gets arrows in him like Boromir.

And Aragorn plays a humbler part, learning from the lesson, completely against the power of evil or using it for his gain, from my point of view, realizing what greatness was lost in Isildur with the Ring.

I think that if Isildur had found the courage to plunk it into the crack 'o doom, (and who would have the courage/strength to do that?) obviously a great evil would have been avoided, but also the waning of the Elves may not have happened, and kingdoms like Elrond's and Galadriel's would have survived many ages.

I think if he had given it to one of the keepers of the three, something bad would have happened. Not sure Elrond or Galadriel could have just walked merrily to Orodruin and tossed it in without encountering some kind of bad luck that always follows the Ring.

If you wore the One Ring with one of the three, who knows. Maybe the evil of the one enters whatever you do and twists it to evil anyway, so that you start out doing something of great good and end up causing great evil.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ulairi
Isildur was not entirely evil for I remembered something I read in UT that Isildur was going to give the ring to one of the keepers of the Three Rings, preferably Elrond. What do you think would have happened if the disaster of the Gladden Fields did not occur and Elrond ended up getting the One Ring and furthermore what would happen if you wore one of the Three and the One at the same time???:confused: :confused: :confused:



i think that elrond wouldn't take it because it would take him and put up another dark lord.

[Úlairi]

Thanks for that comment daisy! I must say that this has never happened to me before. I have been guilty of doing the same thing and I don't think I will do it any more because now I know how it feels!:) :) :) I guess all of us that have been studying Tolkien for so long (I have for 6 years of the 15 of my life, hey that's 40% of my lifetime!!!) have been guilty of going in and doing stuff like that, but know I can see what some people feel like when they post a thread that is the direct opposite of the truth! When I posted this in some ways I suppose that I meant Isildur was very evil but I completely disregarded the influence of the ring's power!!! :) :) :)

[UngattTrunn475]

Isildur was more good than evil. His intentions were good, for he did swipe bravely when he was cornered by Sauron, didn't he? He was merely a mortal man, so of course the Ring had power over him.

[Goro Shimura]

I think it would have been easier to destroy the ring after Sauron was debodied--

but remember... Frodo couldn't even make himself throw the ring into the fireplace in the heart of the Shire!


Isildur nabbing the ring is almost like Pippin nabbing the palantir.

He ought not to have touched it in the first place.

(But who would have gotten it if he hadn't...?)

[Bucky]

>>>I think that if Isildur had found the courage to plunk it into the crack 'o
doom, (and who would have the courage/strength to do that?)

Elrond or Cirdan might very well have had the courage/strength to do so.

And, Isildur did not take the Ring with the intention of giving it to one of the Keepers of the Three.
He plainly states "This I will have as a wweregild of my father & my brother."


Now, I think that as a literary work, VERY clear lines are drawn in TLOR (or ME) between 'good' & 'evil'.

Yet, those lines are somewhat crossed, occassionally by Elves, but especially by Dwarves & (moreso) Men.

Men fought on both sides.
I think it would be pretty fair to assume Tolkien made his 'Men' like 'Men' in the real world, especially as his premise was that ME evolved into the present day world we live in.

Now, we all know that there is good & bad in everyone. Some obviously gravitate more towards one side, but even Mother Theresa wasn't perfect & even Hitler liked dogs.....

So, Isildur was obviously more on the 'good' side, much more, as a prime mover of 'the forces of good' in The Last Alliance.

But, he himself says his "pride has brought you to this doom' to his oldest son, Elendur.

What's the source of all evil (or 'sin' if you will)?
PRIDE.

We all know JRR Tolkien suscribed to the belief system that calls evil 'sin'.

So, as I see it, Tolkien is clearly stating that in the end, Isildur KNEW his taking & keeping of the Ring was an evil act.

[Eonwe]

buckster:


"And, Isildur did not take the Ring with the intention of giving it to one of the Keepers of the Three."

not what I said,

he states in DotGF in UT (which I was talking about) that it "should be given to the keepers of the three"

admittedly this is one of the forbidden books to quote from...

I don't know if he knew taking the Ring was an evil act (was it evil?), but I guess we can say he was informed of its negative aspects after Elrond spoke to him? :)

[Bucky]

Yeah, I was actually referring to the original statement to start the thread where it says Isildur intended to give the Ring to the Keepers of the Three.
Isildur took The Ring with no intention of giving it away. This statement, in fact, only solidifies the theory that Isildur 'repents' at the end.

And, you can only repent if you know you've done wrong.....

BTW, I think Isildur knew it was wrong in hindsight, in part because of Elrond & Cirdan's prompting to throw it away.

And, there's lots of stuff in UT I would quote & accept as fact.

Things like version A,B,C & D of 'The Hunt For The Ring' on the other hand, cannot be taken as fact since there is 4 versions......

[imladris]

As we all know Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand.
If that never happend, Sauron wasn't defeated for some time and he eventually destroyed all the good warriors.
And the ring never got to Elrond at all.

[Snaga]

First a quote from Gandalf to Frodo:A Ring of Power looks after itself Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone has gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help too.

According to this quote, whatever Isildur may have said or thought at the Gladden Fields in extremis, if he had got to Imladris I feel sure he would not have given it to Elrond. He would have decided after all that he could not part with it.

What would have become of him? I'm interested in the statement of Eonwe that 'he could not control its powers'. I don't have a copy of UT at the moment so I can't look that up. Very interesting. I wonder what he had tried to do? Nevertheless he had great power of his own, and the ring would have made him stronger still, or perhaps betrayed him somewhere else?

As an aside: Gandalf's statement is plain wrong AND he knows it. I can think of 3 examples of Rings of Power being given away:
- Gil-Galad to Elrond
- Cirdan to Gandalf
- Thror to Thrain

Gandalf: we will never trust you again....

[Goro Shimura]

Perhaps when Gandalf says "Ring of Power" he means any Ring of Power that Sauron either made, handled, or had a strong influence in it's design.

The Elven rings are the only ones that were atypical, maybe?:confused:

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand

As an aside: Gandalf's statement is plain wrong AND he knows it. I can think of 3 examples of Rings of Power being given away:
- Gil-Galad to Elrond
- Cirdan to Gandalf
- Thror to Thrain

Gandalf: we will never trust you again.... [/B]

You forgot the most unusual case of all: Bilbo to Frodo. Of course, he got a swift kick in the pants from Gandalf to help him along.
:D

Perhaps these were all cases of the Rings choosing to change owners. The Elven-rings would be unlikely to "object" to any of their new wielders, at least, and the One Ring may have been bored of hanging around Hobbiton...

[Snaga]

Donnie my friend, did I forget, or perhaps you did not read my post too closely?;)

[Bucky]

VoK: You don't strike me from your posts as someone who's never read UT....

Did you buy a cheap paperback & it fell apart? (happened to me a few times)

I would agree that the Three Elvish Rings would not put the 'hold' on you that the others, 'sullied' by Sauron, would.

And, I agree Isildur wouldn't have given the Ring to anybody if he'd gotten outta there alive.
Nor would Elrond have accepted it I bet.

[Snaga]

I did have a copy. Sssomeone ssssneaked off with it.:( :mad: Thief! We hates them forever!;)

[Bucky]

Are you sure you didn't loan it to Hugo Bracegirdle?

[Úlairi]

:D :D :D Isildur was a great man, he had great power and he killed Sauron, therefore he was not evil but he was corrupted by the ring. No one could control the will of the ring save Sauron himself. I was wrong to post this thread but it has generated some very good opinions and I definitely learnt that Isildur is not evil at all!!!:D :D :D

[imladris]

Good one there.
:D

[Kelkorian]

Isildur may have not had any evil in him to begin with, but I think he and the blood which will run through the rest of his family got poisened by the Ring's power. This is proven by the fact that Aragorn refuses to accept kingship over Gondor (not publically, but internally), when he chose to become a Druedain (until the turn of events in the course of LotR, of course). He obviously felt the so called evil in himself BECAUSE of Isildur's "weakness".

In conclusion, I think Isildur did have a grain of evil in him since Aragorn could feel it or more so FEAR it.


-- Fell free to correct anything I said here that was wrong, for I am basing this post upon a memory which is a few good months old. Last time I read FoTR was around 9/01.

[Harad]

This is proven by the fact that Aragorn refuses to accept kingship over Gondor (not publically, but internally), when he chose to become a Druedain (until the turn of events in the course of LotR, of course). He obviously felt the so called evil in himself BECAUSE of Isildur's "weakness".

This is backwards. Aragorn did not chose to become Chieftain of the North and did not "not chose" to become King.

Aragorn was born into the job of Chieftain of the North. He was the direct decendent of 800 years and 14 Chieftains of the North.

Conversely the job of King was not Aragorn's to refuse. There was no King in Gondor. Aragorn had a "claim" to be King which under certain circumstances might be accepted. Aragorn did not chose to put forward this claim until after the successful completion of the War of the Ring. If there had been no War of the Ring in his lifetime, in that case, I dont think he would have become King of Gondor.

[Úlairi]

:D :D :D Sorry to be so picky, but Aragorn was of the Dunedain not the Druedain. Bilbo calls Aragorn Dunadan (the singular form of Dunedain) at Imladris (Rivendell) in FOTR. The Druedain were a race of small people, nearly as small as hobbits, yet they were men. Gahn-buri-Ghan was believd to be a descendant of these people. They were noted for making the Pukel-men, in RoTK, and were the arch-rivals of Morgoth's orcs for some time. Just thought I'd clear that one up!!!:D :D :D

[Elanor2]

Originally posted by Kelkorian
He (Aragorn) obviously felt the so called evil in himself BECAUSE of Isildur's "weakness".

In conclusion, I think Isildur did have a grain of evil in him since Aragorn could feel it or more so FEAR it.

Sorry to disagree. This "feeling of evil/weakness" in Aragorn was a dramatization from the movie. Aragorn lamented his ancestor mistake, and he was destined to help correcting it, but it is never said of insinuated in the book that Aragorn felt personally tainted by it.

In the movie they use that plot to make it easier to explain Aragorn's decision not to follow Frodo when the fellowship breaks up. Quick and dirty, but effective for those who had not read the book. It weakens Aragorn's super-hero caracter a bit, but you can have it all...