Did Aragorn make the right choice?

[Quercus]

In TTT, The Departure of Boromir, Aragorn must decide whether they (he, Legolas and Gimli) should take the remaining boat and follow Frodo and Sam, or chase after the Orcs on foot and try to save Merry and Pippin. He finally concludes that the fate of the Ring Bearer is no longer in his hands, and they set out after Merry and Pippin.

Did Aragorn make the right choice?

At first you may say "yes" because everything turned out okay in the end, but think about it! Did they save Merry and Pippin? No, the fate of Merry and Pippin would not have changed a great deal if Aragorn had decided not to go after them.

However, what about Frodo and Sam? What difference do you think it may have made if Aragorn had decided to follow the Ring Bearer instead?

[Harad]

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2291&pagenumber=4

One of the places this has been discussed.

The answer is, and people dont want to hear this, is that JRRT wanted a better story.

Logically speaking a King-to-Be needs to make a decision that is for the good of all, not just to save M&P from torment, but to ensure the success of the most important quest in ME: destruction of the Ring.

And dont fall for the story that he knew what Saruman was going to do. He didnt (unless he had a copy of TTT). At worst he should have sent L&G after them and followed F&S. Gandalf said he would have. Since Gandalf had fallen, Aragorn should have taken his place.

OF COURSE, it was a much better story, the way JRRT did it.

[Aldanil]

Harad, you might wish in your condescension to Tolkien's mere storytelling (by implication inferior to your more penetrating insight) to consider 1) what Aragorn's heart called him to do, 2) what responsibility a leader ought to feel for all of those he had sworn to protect, especially the most helpless, on the basis of moral principles which supersede more "objective" and bloodless considerations of cost/benefit analysis, and 3) I forget now, I'm sure there was something else -- oh, yeah, that's it -- winning the battle of the Pelennor Fields and saving Minas Tirith from destruction! No minor matter that last one, to my turn of mind...

For you to deprecate the wisdom (or should instead that be "logic"?) of Aragorn's difficult choice, and the arguments of those who might seek to support it, on the basis of what he couldn't possibly have known "unless he had a copy of TTT" is an egregious example of the proverbial pot calling the candlestick black.

[Harad]

Aldanil:

WIth "mere" storytelling as a description, you are likely to get drummed out of the "check your brain at the door club."inappropriate comment

1. what Aragorn heart called for him to do is what he presumably passed on when Galadriel tempted him--that is do what was best for him instead of best for THE QUEST.

2."what responsibility a leader ought to feel for all" is precisely the point. A "real" leader does not abandon his commitment to ALL his people=THE QUEST, to save 2 of his people that he has a fondness toward.

3. "winning the battle at Pelennor Fields" --Youre right about this--before leaving Frodo and Sam on their own, Aragorn checked his ouija board, and saw the the Battle of Pelennor Fields was scheduled for a few weeks ahead, and he darn better be there!

[Aldanil]

I should perhaps more precisely have said "what Aragorn's heart called him to do at that moment of decision at Parth Galen"; the choice that Galadriel may "presumably" have offered him in Lorien is the one which he had renounced of his own will already, to turn aside from the Quest and wander with his beloved Arwen in the North in the peace of Rivendell.

The best answer that can be made to your comment about what a "real" leader's responsibility ought to be comes from Aragorn himself: "I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death." Your argument that "2 of his people he has a fondness toward" should have been deliberately discarded and consigned to the clutches of Saruman in service to some notion of the Greater Good is more than mildly reminiscent of the cold-hearted calculations of Curunir.

Of course you're right in asserting that Aragorn could not have known "a few weeks" in advance the knife-edge crisis of the Pelennor Fields; the Fellowship packed light for its journey, and I'm sure he left his ouija board at home with Undomiel. Neither could he have known with certainty that he would immediately find Frodo and Sam in the wilds of the Emyn Muil, nor that once having found them the Quest of the Ringbearer would be guaranteed by his guidance; even the great strength and courage of Isildur's Heir wielding the Sword Reforged would hardly have been enough to force open a path to Orodruin through the dreadful Mountains of Ash or Shadow. The best tracker of the Third Age might well have once captured Gollum near the Dead Marshes and brought him squirming but safe to the keeping of Thranduil, yet his travels never took him east into the Black Land itself that we know of. The fire of Anduril might do much to win the war in the west, however, in Rohan and Gondor.

The point I am trying in typically long-winded fashion to make is that all such fearless judgements (which "people don't want to hear") on the questionable "logic" of the characters' actions, whether Aragorn's to follow the orc-track after Pippin and Merry or Gandalf's to lead the Company into the Mines of Moria, are the felicitous products of 20/20 hindsight, possessing a clarity of wisdom and vision in retrospect which is otherwise unavailable even to one seated upon Amon Hen.

As for membership in the "check your brains at the door" club, mine has long since elapsed for non-payment of dues.

[Goro Shimura]

I might add that THE QWEST (I like shouting that part!) would have been completely foiled if Saruman had managed to get P & M into his tower.

They would have cracked under the interrogation of Sauron (or somebody) and news of Frodo'a location/goals would have certainly been divulged.

Not only were F & S not in any immediate danger... but P & M were!!

I agree with Aldanil that it would have been very "Sarumanic" for Aragorn to cut his losses and gone on after Sam.

Besides, all his tracking skills were needed on the hunt, so he couldn't just send Legolas and Gimli after them!

[HLGStrider]

Harad, you are Vulcan... The needs of many over the needs of a few...

Personally I abhor that philosophy and (a quote from a book I am planning to write someday where the heros are faced with a turning point...)

"If the needs of the many conflict with the rights of a few, let me be found fighting, and dying for, the few."

Perhaps this was Aragorn's philosophy as well...

I sincerely doubt Gala. tempted him with Minas Tirith. I always believed she offered him the ring, to set himself up as the ruler of all, with the ring, over elves and men. She offered him Isulder's choice, in other words.

There is a sense of right and wrong about letting the two helpless ones die. Besides that, and why does everyone ignore this point everytime I make it, HE PROMISED BOROMIR BEFORE HE KNEW THAT FRODO HAD RUN FOR SURE THAT HE WOULD GO TO MINAS TIRITH AND SAVE THE CITY SINCE BOROMIR COULD NOT!!!

Geez... That clinches the argument for me. It may not have been a smart move, but he was morally obligated to follow through with his promise.

[Goldberry]

Aragorn knows that Boromir tried to take the ring from Frodo (and Legolas and Gimli do not).

IMO:
Aragorn's decision to follow Merry & Pippin could have been based on this knowledge. He might have thought that he, too, could possibly be affected by the ring. He also might have wanted to respect Frodo's wishes, which was clearly to continue to Mordor without the rest of the company.

[HLGStrider]

PS
I think it was kind of obvious that something like the battle of Pelinor fields was coming. After all, Mordor was going for world domination, Sauron had already captured a lot of territory from Gondor, and he was going to try for the city someday. He expected a ruler with the ring to come to Gondor and attempt to destroy him like they did the first time. He was focussing his attention on it. Anyone with sense could figure this out.

[Harad]

I am sorry but had the book gone in the other direction, you all would be defending that instead.

People in all walks of life, not just Kings-in-waiting make life and death decisions. Doctors call it triage. They leave helplessly wounded victims to care for those that have a chance. Heartless, Vulcanesque, Saruman-like--roll out your negative terms, but is a fact of life and it is correct. "Needs of many vs. rights of few" is hardly the choice. How about saving a kitten crossing the street vs. letting a Nuclear War kill billions of people. There's a closer comparison. I am sure you would chose the kitten

The same litany of poor excuses has been rolled out again:

0. If Aragorn could make the difference between the Ring Quest succeeding and failing, all the reasons listed below are like grains of sand washing out with the tide.

1. Aragorn had to save M&P from torture at the hands of Saruman. Once again you have placed a copy of TTT in his hands. Same with his knowing about the timing of the upcoming battle.

2.Aragorn could not trust himself. An easy excuse but not borne out in the book (or the movie)

3. Aragorn's self-serving statement put into his mouth by JRRT to justify his plot line is an absurd argument to justify his course of action on objective grounds. Your membership has certainly not lapsed.

4. Similarly his promise to Boromir falls in the category of what Aragorn "wanted" to do--go to Minas Tirith--not what he should do.

5. Finally the idea that Aragorn could not help Frodo and Sam is absurd on the face of it. He is the pre-eminent tracker and non-magical fighter in ME. Knowing how the story ends, its easy to say he wouldnt have helped. But youre not allowed to use that sort of "reasoning." Why not take Sam away from Frodo and give Frodo a limp and a headache to make it a REALLY sporting Quest?

[HLGStrider]

Kitten: not human (meaning thinking type being that has a soul as far as I know...).
Hobbits: Apparently human in the sense listed above....

Nuclear war: certain death

going the other way: even Aragorn couldn't storm the gates of Baradur.

Maybe I would defend it because Tolkien would've put a lot of things forward to justify his decision. He was the writer and could do this.

I still think that Pelinor was the obvious conclusion.

I still think the promise to Boromir would hold a lot of weight with any man of honor.

I still think that Aragorn felt helpless, confused, trapped in a corner. Perhaps he chose the greater of two evils; I don't think either decision was right, but I think the poor guy did his best.

Aragorn obviously couldn't make the difference between it succeeding or failing. I think he did more good going where he did, not because of what happened in the book so much as that he drew all of Sauron's attention away from Mordor.

I think the guy had a certain amount of foresight. Not an "oija board" (Thanks whoever brought that into the conversation. They had me laugh really hard, and I'm not being sarcastic... Really made my day when I wasn't feeling too good.), but a certain amount of gut feeling... call it instinct.

Maybe it didn't make much logical sense, but I think that morally, the decision was right. What were your other points... Sometimes I am really scatter brained... Can't blame me.I'm seventeen and reserve all rights to irrationality...
quote
1. Aragorn had to save M&P from torture at the hands of Saruman. Once again you have placed a copy of TTT in his hands. Same with his knowing about the timing of the upcoming battle

I've never used this logic that I know of, but I might have, so I will defend it to a small degree...

They knew orcs had white hands... Sarumen... Boromir had said that the Hobbits were alive (Unusual behavior for orcs to take prisoners like that... I believe. I think they have before, but not little rat guys when they kill off the apparently more valuable princelike guy.). I think that it made a little sense to suppose that they were wanted alive.

2.Aragorn could not trust himself. An easy excuse but not borne out in the book (or the movie)

No... but who can tell... I think Aragorn did trust himself to a certain point... but did Frodo trust him. I think Frodo did, but did Aragorn know he knew... Did Frodo know Aragorn knew he knew that he knew that he knew.... I'm not going to waste my time with this really bad joke...

3. Aragorn's self-serving statement put into his mouth by JRRT to justify his plot line is an absurd argument to justify his course of action on objective grounds. Your membership has certainly not lapsed.

I read all the posts but somehow I missed this one...

4. Similarly his promise to Boromir falls in the category of what Aragorn "wanted" to do--go to Minas Tirith--not what he should do.

HONOR! A MAN'S WORD IS LAW!!! Minas Tirith needed him, he knew that. Minas Tirith is the strong hold of the free peoples. If it falls... I shudder to think and Aragorn did too. Perhaps he wanted to do it, but wouldn't you???

5. Finally the idea that Aragorn could not help Frodo and Sam is absurd on the face of it. He is the pre-eminent tracker and non-magical fighter in ME. Knowing how the story ends, its easy to say he wouldnt have helped. But youre not allowed to use that sort of "reasoning." Why not take Sam away from Frodo and give Frodo a limp and a headache to make it a REALLY sporting Quest?

Of course he could help... But he could help Minas Tirith too.

Perhaps he gave over to what he wanted to do, but it was a choice between two evils, and with faced with such a choice, following your heart may not be such a bad idea....

I'm not critisizing your opinion, but I'm disaggreeing.

[Harad]

You are using selective memory:

HONOR HONOR HONOR:

. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will.'

Said to Frodo Baggins.


'It would indeed be a betrayal, if we all left him,' said Aragorn. 'But if he goes east, then all need not go with him; nor do I think that all should. That venture is desperate: as much so for eight as for three or two, or one alone. If you would let me choose, then I should appoint three companions: Sam, who could not bear it otherwise; and Gimli; and myself. Boromir will return to his own city, where his father and his people need him; and with him the others should go, or at least Meriadoc and Peregrin, if Legolas is not willing to leave us.'

Says Aragorn to the Fellowship right before the Breaking. Later he chooses this "betrayal."

[Bucky]

Aragorn pretty much goes through what HE wants Frodo to do before Frodo & Boromir have their confrontation in 'The Breaking of the Fellowship'.

And, he covers the 'new' options with Legolas & Gimli as they're preparing Boromir's funeral boat in 'The Departure of Boromir.

[Aldanil]

I realize full well (or surely I ought to, given past experience on other threads) that there's really no satisfying your superior wisdom, Harad, once its greater insight has been brought to bear upon some lamentable flaw in the "logic" of The Lord of the Rings, and thus this feeble effort of mine is foredoomed to failure; even so my heart, or perhaps merely my indignation, bids me make the attempt.

Your sneering dismissal of "Aragorn's self-serving statement put into his mouth by JRRT to justify his plot line" as "an absurd argument" displays a combination of condescending arrogance toward our author and willful misunderstanding of his ideas which is truly breathtaking, even coming from you. One might well imagine that you had created any number of widely-read and world-renowned mythopoetic wonder-tales yourself to hear you thus opine. (And yes, I do know an ad hominem attack when I'm making one, but the indignation noted above has me somewhat carried away.) You offer, as proof that he is dishonorable or disloyal, it seems, Aragorn's words to Frodo in the inn at Bree: "if by life or death I can save you, I will." Merry and Pippin, however, who were in that same room of the Prancing Pony and heard Strider so swear, are apparently @%#$ outa luck, as we say in Virginia: "Sorry, little Companions, you're really not important enough to be bothered with rescuing, or even attempting to; I know that sounds harsh, but I'm just practicing triage! Say hello to Saruman for us all when you see him!"

If all of the accumulated story-based reasoning of others already presented on this thread (that Aragorn's promise to Boromir binds him; that saving Minas Tirith is an absolutely essential part of any effort to defeat Sauron, not least by keeping the Lidless Eye turned westward and away from the borders of Mordor; that he has an obligation not to abandon his most helpless friends held captive, an obligation based upon moral principles very highly prized by Tolkien, however little they apparently matter to you; that allowing Saruman to interrogate by torture two Halflings in Orthanc would soon destroy any hope for the Ringbearer to travel in secret without the knowledge of Barad-dur; that, perhaps most important of all, Frodo has made his own very difficult choice in the matter) should fail to persuade you, Harad -- and I'm fairly certain it will, as I started by saying -- let me put to you another line of inquiry, which depends not upon the "inner" mechanics of the narrative or its author's purportedly self-justifying motivation, but rather upon "external" consideration of your own response as a reader. (I really don't much care for the currently fashionable academic notions of deconstructionism, but they do come in handy every once in a while.) You have repeatedly jeered at the "absurd" or dishonorable or "self-serving" nature of Aragorn's decision, a decision that you claim can only be respected in retrospect, if he had "a copy of TTT in his hands"; on that basis, let me ask my question. When you first held a copy of The Two Towers in your hands, and read that debate of the Three Hunters as to their best course of action after the Departure of Boromir, were you forcibly struck by its feckless illogic? Did you at that moment exclaim in insightful exasperation, "What does that damn Dunadan think that he's doing? Has he no better sense? Doesn't he realize he's betraying the Quest?" Or is your present penetrating wisdom on the subject rather the product of superior hindsight?

I await, if not with bated breath, your answer, although I'll presume to surmise it.

[Harad]

Aldanil: Geez a new record for longwinded regurgitation. Maybe an even longer post next time will stumble upon a new idea. Something along the lines of simians, word processors, and the Bard of Avon.personal attack Unlikely.

Bucky: as far as options, the overall situation with regards to the Quest has not changed. That action is destined to take place on the East bank of Anduin over the following 4 weeks. As it was Gandalf's expressed commitment to help Frodo throughout the Quest:


He went to the window and drew aside the curtains and the shutters. Sunlight streamed back again into the room. Sam passed along the path outside whistling. 'And now,' said the wizard, turning back to Frodo, 'the decision lies with you. But I will always help you.' He laid his hand on Frodo's shoulder. 'I will help you bear this burden, as long as It is yours to bear. But we must do something, soon. The Enemy is moving.'

Then Aragorn as the de facto successor to Gandalf had as his duty, his honor, his obligation to help Frodo in his place. If he chose, he could send Gimli & Legolas after M&P. In fact (for those peeking ahead in their TTT), they would have helped M&P just as much with Aragorn, as without him. For all those who want Aragorn to do the other things in the future, that's not the way reality, even book reality, works. One has to attempt the tasks at hand--

To wit:

'So do I,' said Gandalf, 'and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given, us. And already, Frodo, our time is beginning to look black. The Enemy is fast becoming very strong. His plans are far from ripe, I think, but they are ripening. We shall be hard put to it. We should be very hard put to it, even if it were not for this dreadful chance.

If the Quest succeeds then the military campaign will be won. If the Quest fails, then the military campaign is irrelevant and lost. The same can be said for the fate of M&P. If the Quest fails not only M&P but all of Hobbiton will be destroyed. would the future King really chose to not support the Quest?

[Elanor2]

This is a difficult subject, I must say...

Well, here is my opinion. Aragorn's choice is not an easy one. Both options have good points and bad points. Perhaps, and following cold logic, Aragorn should have followed Frodo&Sam, or at leats splitted the group to ensure that both options were covered. Yet he doesn't do it.

Logic is not going to help much here, I fear...

There is another non-logic option: Aragorn had a hunch.
Why not? He had inherited that power from his mother's father and he had hunches before that proved right (the warning to Gandalf before Moria, for example, perhaps many more before).
So, Aragorn had the hunch that Frodo should go alone (except for Sam) to Mordor. His heart tells him so. Clearly, not a logic thought at all. And he obeys, not willingly perhaps, but if you are a "profet" you should follw what the "profecy" tells, so to speak.

As for the argument that this way it makes a better story, sorry to disagree. I am fully confident in Tolkien's genius to be able to write a fantastically good story anyway, whatever decision Aragorn takes.

I do not know if you have had the chance to do some creative writting. I had, and I can tell that, many times, I have no idea where I am going until I get there. I have tons of stories in my head and the problem is not to make them fit together, the problem is to decide which ones I will use and what to discard. Sometimes all pieces do not fit tightly like a puzzle, but they always fit enough not to contradict each other, if you pay a bit of attention. That's at least my experience.

Regards, Elanor2.

[HLGStrider]

Okay, don't blame me for typo's... my contacts are going burrzzz burrrzzz today....

Harad, you seemed to take offense when I called you a Vulcan, but I was just affirming your statement on an earlier thread as a joke... If you'll remember, I said something about Vulcans being annoying, and you jumped right in with a claim of being one, which I thought was kind of funny...

Anyway, I think there was an argument about Aragorn being self serving by chosing to go after his two dear friends rather than Frodo and Sam... Why were Pippen and Merry any dearer to him than Frodo and Sam would be? If anything, Pippen's behavior would put off the sensible Aragorn. I think he would naturally have been more inclined to be fond of Frodo... Towards the end where he had actually had more time with the two mischief makers, yes, but that hadn't happened yet. So far Pippen had only distinguished himself by being a general pest, so we can throw that argument out. Aragorn was not going after Pippen and Merry because they were his friends. Neither was he abandoning Frodo and Sam for someone he liked better... I've been stewing over this all night...

I also want to bring up a point? How did Aragorn get to be the leader? That was one thing I didn't prefer in the story, the way Aragorn just presents himself as the self appointed ruler as soon as Gandalf falls of the bridge... It wasn't too bad, I mean the guy certainly had a claim to the position... Maybe I've just been in democracy too long and would've prefered an election with several recounts...

Anyway, lets get into this physcologically... another word I can't spell...

Aragorn is now the leader due to the death of his mentor (Do you think I can call Gandalf that? They've known each other for quite a while now, and Gandalf is older...). Slightly confused, his plans are haywire. He'd meant to go to Minas Tirith which is obviously in danger. He wants to do this and honor his duty to what he considers his city (I think I can go that far. I believe he had a love for Gondor implanted in him.). He also wants to do what Gandalf would've done and I believe he is loathe to break up the Fellowship, which at this point seems the obvious conclusion. Plus he can't decide where he should go if he does, follow his own heart and one duty, or follow Gandalf's way and another duty. So he stops them at the cross roads and calls a council, telling Frodo that it's up to him as Ring Bearer. Frodo walks off to think while they continue the conversation...

I've always like the hesitancy and self-doubt Aragorn exhibits from Lothlorien on. It shows a certain amount of nobility in my mind. It also makes him a bit more heroic, having to make a hard choice... back to the story line...

Meanwhile, Boromir does what Boromir does. Trying to decide by looking around Aragorn goes to the Hill and sees trouble massing on all sides, hear's the commotion, rushes down, meets Boro. Boro tells him that the hobbits (I believe he didn't specify) have been kidnapped and begs him to save Minas Tirith. Aragorn, stricken by yet another tradegy, agrees. They go look around...

Hummm... what do we have here... Boat missing... Sam's pack missing... Logic says Sam has left, and where Frodo goes, Sam follows. They take the time out to send Boro. down stream (sorry, if I am being irreverent, but I didn't like Boro from the moment he entered the council room.), and have a debate. They know that some of the hobbits are captured alive. I think Aragorn weighs all decisions and decides that Frodo has made his choice for him. While he is still not sure, this is the last straw, he needs to do what he needs to do.

Another interesting point, when Gandalf comes back, it would make sense, by your logic, for him to go to Mordor after S&F. He doesn't. He apparently thought there was some priority in the Gondor Rohan situation... Who are we to debate the ways of Wizards?

[baraka]

I think that Aragorn should have followed Frodo & Sam, regardless of anything.:) It was the quest the most important thing in the world.

[HLGStrider]

Even saving the white city???

Well, maybe it is more important, but Minas Tirith would fall without Aragorn and if it fell, I don't think Frodo could've suceeded. Sauron would've been to strong. Nothing would be in his way. He could've devoted all his time to ring searching, and he would've found it soon enough...

[baraka]

but Minas Tirith would fall without Aragorn and if it fell, I don't think Frodo could've suceeded.

I don´t think it´s fair to use a future event to support this decision.
Aragorn had no knowledge of it!:)
Really 2 hobbits in exchange for the entire quest. Ridiculous!
It´s like choosing Pippin instead of Glorfindel.:)

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

A bit of a twist on the topic here...

Why did Frodo and Sam even leave Aragorn an option? They could easily have damaged the other two boats or sent them floating away downstream, and cut off any chance of being followed.

If they had, we wouldn't be having this discussion. {Hmmm, maybe that's why they didn't!]

[baraka]

Why did Frodo and Sam even leave Aragorn an option? They could easily have damaged the other two boats or sent them floating away downstream, and cut off any chance of being followed.
Very interesting point.:) . Maybe they thought that Aragorn and Co could find the boat useful in another way.:)

[Quercus]

NICE DEBATE EVERYBODY!!!

I've read some pretty interesting arguments here. Thank you for your responses despite the fact that this subject has apparently been debated on other threads.

I must say that you've all made some pretty legitamate points, and I was almost swayed by some of Aldanil's, HGLStrider's and Elanor2's comments. I almost cringe to say this because I'm afraid I'm not quite as eloquent as some of the rest of you in getting my point across, but I have to agree with Harad and baraka that Aragorn, at least, should have gone after Frodo and Sam.

Frodo had the fate of all ME in his hands and he was marching into Hell (literally) with only his faithful friend. There should have been no reason for Aragorn to even debate this issue, the answer was clear. Sometimes when I think about it it actually makes me mad! Frodo was wise enough to understand the urgency of his mission, why wasn't Aragorn?

Logically, it seems, Aragorn would have had more luck in catching up to Frodo and Sam than to Merry and Pippin anyway. Shouldn't Aragorn have gone with what seemed more like a sure thing instead of a wild goose chase?

I find the excuse that Aragorn was respecting Frodo's wishes to be pretty flimsy. Yes, it's true that Frodo did not want Aragorn to come along but not because he was afraid that Aragorn would take the ring. He'd become fond of Aragorn and he could not bear to have any of his friends die because of what he felt was his responsibility alone. Frodo didn't want Sam to come with him either, but Sam came anyway, and look what a difference that made. I really don't think that Frodo could have ever gotten to Mount Doom without Sam, it took all the strength and attention he had just try to resist the will of the ring. How many times did Frodo Tell Sam he was glad to have Sam with him? Wouldn't he have been glad to have Aragorn by his side too?

Also, let's take into consideration that it was often expressed that time was of the essence and that destroying the ring was a very urgent matter. Then think about all of the times that Sam (and Gollum) had to slow their pace and stop and rest because Frodo could barely keep going. Wouldn't it have been nice if someone like Aragorn had been along to carry Frodo when he became too weary and to help Sam keep watch over his master while they rested. Think of how much faster they might have gotten to Mount Doom if Aragorn had been along! Perhaps even quickly enough to have thwarted some of the battles that took place. Think of all the lives that might have been saved!

Ofcourse, Aragorn's presence may have changed the course of events and instead of getting to Mount Doom faster the mission might have failed completely. But we can't know that anymore than Aragorn could have known.

Would the story line have sufferd as Harad suggests? Perhaps there may have been less large scale battles, and Eowyn may not have had a chance to prove herself on the battle field (one of my favorite parts). But, none the less, I have to agree with Elanor2 that JRRT was certainly a talented enough author to come up with altenative adventures to suit the story line.

My conclusion - Aragorn betrayed his vow to Frodo and instead followed his heart. In my mind he made the wrong choice, but fortunately, things turned out alright in the end anyway.

[Harad]

I am all teary. After lo, these many posts, I am not a lone voice crying in the wilderness.

One comment about an issue that people have seized upon. There is no doubt that a good story CAN be written with Aragorn going East. Way back when I was Grey I wrote a treatment with Gandalf going East. However, and maybe this can be checked from HoME, JRRT had a definite idea of which characters would go in which directions after Parth Galen. IMO he made that decision first, and then came up with justification for his (Aragorn's) decision.

The justification doesnt cut the mustard as Quercus ably points out. I especially like his argument about reaching Mt Doom FASTER with Aragorn. Who can tell? Then there would be no battle of Pelennor because the Witch-Kings Army would be still-born--scattered before it could attack--saving how many lives?

When I read the story for the first time, I was frankly surprised at Aragorn's decision and wanted more to motivate him. Could more have been given? Yes. Look at PJ's movie. Without getting into the details (that's in the movie forum), one extra motivation is that Aragorn is fighting a gazillion orcs to allow Frodo to escape. And, very importantly, Frodo and Aragorn have a face-to-face and come to an agreement that over?-emphasizes the theme that Men are corruptible by the Ring, and that Frodo is unique in his resistance to that corruption. Hence Frodo should go alone.

[HLGStrider]

Perhaps he didn't do the smart thing, but I won't accept that he did it out of a bad heart... He was PERFECT!!!

Anyway, Now Harad is John the Baptistpersonal attack... The voice crying out in the wilderness.. perpare the path for the lord of the rings... With Aragorn in tow... :)

Where was HLG.... It's HLG... by the way, not HGl...

I had some thing to say and got all distracted....

I always thought Aragorn's vow to Frodo was paid off at Rivendell, just by getting him there, because Aragorn had every intention of leaving Frodo at the begining.

I'm not saying Aragorn knew Minas Tirith would've fallen, Baraka, I'm saying that it was likely enough that it would fall even with Aragorn that he would've been considering it...

Take the facts:
Minas Tirith, been on the enemies mind for ages.
Sandwiched in between the sweet neighbors of Mordor and Orthanc... Just the type of people you want to come over and borrow a cup of sugar from.
The already called for the sword that was broken, unintentionally calling Aragorn, suggesting some sort of fateful thing to happen..

You can't deny that everyone knew Minas Tirith was in trouble....
I think Boromir said as much... something about Gondor having to stand alone at the council of Elrond... Can someone fish up the quote... I am really behind schedule and I just put the books away... If it doesn't exist... oh well... I still think it was obvious..

[baraka]

I'm not saying Aragorn knew Minas Tirith would've fallen, Baraka, I'm saying that it was likely enough that it would fall even with Aragorn that he would've been considering it...
Ok.
The point that i was trying to make was:
Aragorn in the breaking of the Fellowship.
1. Follow F & S.
2. Follow M & P.
3. Have Aragorn divide the remaining of the Co. in 2 grops, one to follow F & S and the other to follow M & P.

Because of the importance of the quest i believe that option 3 or 1 would have been a better choice in that time. Say have Legolas and Gimli follow M & P and leave Aragorn (a ranger) to track down F & S.
But to have left F & S alone , to me it is unconceivable.:confused:
Please, use other arguments than wisdom from the old Kings of the West.:)

[Harad]

Dear Ms. President (HLGS),

Aragorn IS perfect, its just that JRRT made him do those terrible things.

Yes Gondor was in trouble. But why? Because Sauron was launching war to try to recover the Ring or to defeat the new Ring User, whomever that might be. If Aragorn had taken Gandalf's place and accompanied Frodo, then, because he IS perfect, he might have gotten him to Mt Doom, sooner, not only saving Gondor, but with far less loss of life than actually ocurred. He would have been elected King on the first ballot.

[HLGStrider]

So you think Aragorn could've gotten them to Mt. Doom before Sauramen had wiped Rohan off the face of the earth and Sauron had dealt with Gondor? I think that's unlikely.I think Aragorn didn't even think he could save Gondor for sure. Without him... Shudder to think...

I think you take logic too seriously...

May I ask what you do for a living? I'm getting vibes on a professor of science due to some quantum physics comments but you could've been just making that up...

I don't think they were terrible... Perhaps not sensible, but he had a terrible choice before him, and I think he let the circumstances direct his decision a little bit. Right or wrong...

I never think of things logically. I think of them sort of sentimentally... I think if I knew one group of friends was going somewhere willingly, had a fairly good head start, and had a chance, I would let them go into danger rather then letting friends who didn't have a chance without me go somewhere forcibly.

I also think he trusted Frodo more than you do, trusted fate more than most modern men would (No direct God, I suppose, but a higher providence and fate) and followed what his heart said was his path.

The decision needed to be made for the story. JRRT made it as emotionally preferable to go the way Aragorn did. If he hadn't have and Aragorn could argue logically out of it, it would've messed up the stories... There was someone who said that stories go where they want to... I happen to stick to an outline as a writer, so I can't comment on this. I also think that Aragorn followed his heart and chose what may have seemed the greater of two evils, but what turned out fairly well. I think he helped S and F more by doing what he did, distracting the Eye and keeping Sauron busy busy busy...

Any one seen Veggie Tales?? We're busy, busy.. love that song... Oh boy.. rabbit trail, as my dad would call it...

When I am president I will find you a job where you can be logical.

[Harad]

I can't think of an administration job where logic might help...

What did Aragorn, no matter how perfect, contribute to the victory over Saruman? Besides 50 or so Orcs, that is. So I dont think that's an objection.


I think if I knew one group of friends was going somewhere willingly, had a fairly good head start, and had a chance, I would let them go into danger rather then letting friends who didn't have a chance without me go somewhere forcibly.

But the way you frame the question, gives you the answer. You could also say: one group of friends who I could catch up with and help SAVE ME, vs. another group of friends who I couldnt catch up with under any circumstances. Then you might make a different sentimental decision.


May I ask what you do for a living?

Youre too young and impressionable for that kind of info. Perhaps when youre eligible to serve as President (a bit more than twice your current age...)

[Quercus]

Hey HLGStrider,
Sorry about the HGL. I'll try to be more careful!

You say you're a fan of Aragorn and you think he's perfect. You also say you look at things sort of sentimentally, so of course you can't stand by and let us slam Aragorn. I understand perfectly, I've been a big fan of Frodo for a good deal longer than you've been alive. In fact, before I came on this forum, I just kind of assumed that everybody's favorite character was Frodo!

The point is - LOTR was completed a long time ago and I don't think anyone is really interested in rewriting it. They'd be a fool if they did. We're just being hypothetical here.

So what if your favorite character abandoned my favorite character!
As I said before, it all turned out fine in the end.

[Aldanil]

Your concession of that "be a fool if they did" is most welcome, Quercus; as you were the original spinner of this thread (and are almost eight months older than myself into the bargain), I'm glad to see acknowledged that the entire line of argument is only "hypothetical" and that you at least "don't think anyone is really interested in rewriting" the story. Feeling as fondly about Frodo as you have for so long, you can well understand the tender sentiments of HLGStrider when his namesake is getting slammed (quite unfairly, as I persist in believing); and in the end, as you point out, we're all of us just debating for the joyful interplay of ideas anyway! Or almost all of us, that is, all save one, as I'm starting to suspect...

What really crumbles my lembas is the slamming, or more precisely the slandering, not of Aragorn or Gandalf but of our dear John Ronald. A sustained and deliberate campaign of sneering and subtle condescension is being waged, with its wicked web stretching from Erebor to Moria and Parth Galen to the Gap of Rohan, to denigrate and deride the authorial merit of Tolkien. The oft-repeated assertion that "absurd" or illogical or unsupportable actions were forced upon his characters by their creator the writer, purportedly to produce a "better story" or otherwise attempting to justify his plot-lines, is an egregious and arrogant attack on JRRT's integrity that I'm really getting tired of hearing. A less than age-old adage suggests that if you don't like what you're listening to, then just change the channel; but a wiser man said some years ago all that is needed for the triumph of evil is for good men to stand by and do nothing. A Forum truly as fine as ours is a terrible thing to waste or allow to be waylaid, and I'm beginning to think that Harad the Whine is really the guise in return of Gorthaur reincarnate.personal attack

[Harad]

A Forum truly as fine as ours is a terrible thing to waste or allow to be waylaid, and I'm beginning to think that Harad the Whine is really the guise of Gorthaur reincarnate.

Insults: the last resort of someone intellectually prostrate.personal attack

[Aldanil]

HLGStrider politely asked a little while ago, Harad, just what it is that you do for a living. Given your very impressive average of nearly twenty-six posts a day since reappearing as the White (and I will readily admit that my substituting "n" for "t" was a cheap shot, as your characteristic tone is far more often patient in the assurance of superior insight than whiny, but it's rare that a single letter's replacement can have such emphatic effect, and so I succumbed unkindly to an unworthy ad hominem), I'd be tempted to guess at least semi-pro Net-minder; given your earlier remarks on this thread about triage as the truest test of moral decision-making, I surely hope you're not a doctor, or am glad at least that you're not mine. For myself, I'm an English teacher by trade, and analyze literature for a living (among other things: at this point in my tirade, any schoolteachers reading along are cordially invited to LOL at that last one); let me offer then some of my own semi-professional expertise.

When a poet chooses a particular word or phrase just for the sake of its rhyme-sound, or because its syllables fit the line's metrical pattern of stresses, and not because it is the word or phrase most apt or expressive, not because it best suits the sense of the verse or most richly illumines its meaning, but only because it rhymes as required or fill outs the meter, such usage is considered a flaw in the work's artistic construction. Any writer who repeated employs such forced and flaccid usage is rightly judged not to be a good poet, but merely a versifier; and the examples of such second- and third-rate verses that might be cited to prove this point would fill up this Forum and another besides. The same standard applies equally to authors working in the medium of prose. If the speech uttered or the reason offered or the action taken by a character in a story is only presented to advance the plot, and cannot otherwise be plausibly supported, then such a speech or reason or action is properly held to be a flaw in the fiction; and any author who repeatedly forces his characters to speak or think or act merely in order to justify his narrative plotting is a second-rate writer at best.

This is the source of my indignation, Harad; the insults and allusive innuendo are merely embellishment. You have again and again sniped and sneered at this and that and yet another part of the story, severally offering a singular notion (which I won't call an idea, as it's at bottom an attitude) both in your own threads, ranging from the infamous screed against Moria vs. the Gap to the more recent but equally snide "Gandalf's Realpolitik", and in numerous postings to the threads of others like this of the courteous Quercus, the notion that Tolkien may well have chosen the actions and the motives for his characters that he did for the purpose of telling a "better story", but if only discerning and rational, clear-minded readers would harken to your "lone voice crying in the wilderness" bravely saying the things that "people just don't want to hear", then we could at last come to recognize just how self-serving, unwise, and disloyal Aragorn is abandoning Frodo, or how deliberately deceptive and/or inexcusably feckless Gandalf is (depending on whether he's advising Thorin or the Fellowship), and ultimately, most important of all, realize just how "absurd" and "self-justifying" Tolkien was in choosing to tell the Tale as he did.

And anyway, you couldn't really be Gorthaur reincarnate, now could you? You've never been wrong about anything, for one; and for another, there's no way you're old enough! But then again, nobody knows just how old you are, do we? "That kind of info" is N/A and not to be shared with the young and impressionable.




Trembling, I await the wrath of Grond and Ancalagon. :o


(Not that I don't fear the righteous moderation of ReadWryt, Talierin, and Ciryaher also, for that matter; although it does seem more than a trifle ironic, to be game for the "Rushing Jaws" of a Dragon on prohibition of flaming...)

[Harad]

Stick to judging the writing talent of your betters, Aldanil. At least you, apparently, make a living at that.personal attack

As far as judging my queries about the fiction of JRRT, why bother? What is your concern if I question the logic, either of characters or of the author. Some others on this forum are willing to bandy about ideas without resorting to insults. You do neither. I invite you not to try. When you see me discussing an issue, just withdraw from the field of honor, and save yourself the dyspepsia that accompanies your reading my words. That will save me the time of responding to these pointless diatribes.

As I have stated repeatedly, and why would I be here otherwise, I enjoy the fiction of JRRT. It is not a holy text by any means. "Merely" a ripping good yarn. The minor issues that I bring up are for entertainment purposes only. I dont think any of them harm children nor take a dime out of your pocket. I could post issues like: "Wasnt JRRT's description of the charge of Rohan awe-inpsiring?" This would likely not generate too much back and forth. Since I enjoy the back and forth and you don't there is the simple solution that I suggested above. I don't expect you to take it, for obvious reasons.

[Quercus]

Harad and Aldanil,

Take it easy guys! First of all, I'm only a lowly Landscaper (with degrees in anthropology and psychology) and you're talking way above my head, or at least, way above the heads of most people I'm used to talking to. I must admit that your eloquence is most impressive but your tone is a little disturbing. I, like Frodo, would prefer to have a peaceful ending to all of this.

Aldanil, thank you for your comments. I was surprised to see that an English teacher (rather than a Biology teacher) would know the meaning of my name.

Yes indeed, I believe that LOTR is one of the greatest works of literature ever written, or at least, that I've ever read. The first time I read the books I was very, very lonely. I had avoided reading LOTR for years because I thought it was too wordy, but desparation had set in. In no time, I was caught up in the story and could scarcely put it down. I ended up having to ration how many pages I could read each day so I wouldn't get through it too quickly. In between readings, I would think about the story and make my own little scenarios as to what might happen next. I spent a lot of time wondering why so-and-so did thus-and-such, but I had no one to discuss it with.

All these years the story and the characters have been like old friends to me. Everytime I read the books I become obsessed all over again, but there's never really been anyone to discuss them with. That is, up until a couple of weeks ago when I discovered this forum.

Enough about me, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I believe we're all here for the same reason. To discuss and argue some of the finer points of this great piece of literary work.

I must admit that, at first, I feared the wrath of Harad, and hoped that my modest comments would go unnoticed by him (or her). However, now I can see that Harad likes to play the Devil's Advocate, a position that is sorely needed if one wants to carry on a lively debate. I'm not necessarily trying to defend Harad, he's perfectly capable of speaking in his own defense.

I guess I just hate to see that a question I posed would cause such a heated discussion. At the same time, it inspires me to want to pose another!

So please, both of you, be civil! If you can!

[Aldanil]

I appreciate your concern for my digestion, Harad, and will surely give profound thought to both your career counseling and your kind invitation.

As to what my concern is about your questioning the logic of the characters and their author, if you really can't tell, perhaps you should reread my postings with a bit more careful attention. You rather sweepingly dismiss them all as "pointless diatribes", which may serve to explain why you so rarely deign to respond to the points they contain. No more than you do (or maybe a little more than you do, but not to any unhealthy extent) do I consider the work of Tolkien to be "a holy text", nor do I conceive of this Forum as a house of worship. I certainly do, however, think that the Tale of Arda is much more than merely a "ripping good yarn", and my purportedly dyspeptic refusal to "withdraw from the field of honor" is chiefly because to do so would leave it in your uncontested possession. (I'm vastly inflating my own importance, of course; there are more than a few others who will post to oppose you.) Still, for someone who claims to bring up only "minor points" and only "for entertainment purposes" at that, you seem awfully unwilling to concede even the most trivial error in your own lines of "logic"; and for someone who says he enjoys "the back and forth", you don't seem to take much delight in my periphrastic but colorful counter-punching. Have you ever admitted to being wrong in any substantive way? Can't you relish a joke? I really do understand that your gnatty threads pose no serious threat either to the morals of children or my own employment (or to JRRT's literary reputation, for that matter, despite Goroshimura's recent sarcastic capitulation); and when I suggested that you might be the spirit of Sauron returned to plague the peaceful peoples of Middle-earth, I was only teasing! Another member of our famous Forum selected that name as his handle, for Iluvatar's sake! And really, don't you find our own "give and take" just a tad entertaining? Why, it's almost as much fun as pounding sand down a rat-hole!

[Aldanil]

Your courteous and soothing words were posted while I was still composing (or venting my spleen), Master Oak, and I defer to their mild and gracious wisdom; I'm sorry if my part in the debate has caused you any qualms. I'm only a poor pedantical Tree-friend, trying to play my little part in the fight against Ultimate Evil!

We'se only jus' funnin', anyway... ;) :D :rolleyes: :mad: :o

[Parrot]

It seems apparent to me that Tolkien is CONCEDING that Aragorn is going against all prevailing LOGIC when he says that he must “follow his heart”, apparently at odds with his brain telling him to follow and aid the ring-bearer. This is not to say that he made the “wrong choice” as going with your gut feeling should not be discounted in a character with the wisdom and experience of Aragorn, but it makes it harder to rationally argue his choice.

To answer an earlier Aldanil post, I too remember thinking at first reading; “Jeez, shouldn’t they really go after Frodo and Sam and attend to the Quest; but no, that would hurt the STORY!” Did it think this a flaw in the story? Slightly. Did it diminish my enjoyment of said story? Not in the least. If you can’t suspend that much disbelief maybe fantasy isn’t your best genre. (No, that’s not a shot at Harad, he’s a great Devil’s Advocate).

Getting back to the original question (is that allowed at this point? I’m new) “What difference do you think it may have made if Aragorn had decided to follow the Ring-Bearer instead?” Conceivably, if Aragorn had pursued Frodo he might have just caught and/or killed Gollum and in so doing, unintentionally foiled the eventual destruction of The Ring.

[Harad]

Aragorn had pursued Frodo he might have just caught and/or killed Gollum and in so doing, unintentionally foiled the eventual destruction of The Ring.

They DID catch Gollum as the story went. In the past Aragorn had caught Gollum without killing him. Why would he have killed him in this scenario?

"The Devils Advocate"? Wasnt that Keanu Reeves?

[Parrot]

I did not say that he (meaning Aragorn) would have killed him, only presented it as a possible outcome (and/or). My point was that by pursuing Frodo, the rest of the fellowship would necessarily be pursuing Gollum and would have probably waylaid him given the chance, thus preventing his later role at Mt. Doom and possibly inadvertently foiling the whole quest. Just playing the rhetorical game.

[Harad]

the rest of the fellowship would necessarily be pursuing Gollum and would have probably waylaid him given the chance

He WAS waylaid and this didnt affect his participation.

[Parrot]

IF Gollum were captured by Aragorn (Legolas, Gimli) and none of them ever reunite with Sam and Frodo this would SERIOUSLY affect his participation; as in he is not there to lead Sam and Frodo through the marshes, to Cirith Ungol and Shelob, he does not follow them to Mt. Doom, does not bite off the ring, and does not fall in the fire destroying the ring. Just a few minor changes to the story.

I was simply throwing this out as one possible turn of events in the spirit of the original post, but just forget I ever went there (I know I will).

[Harad]

If Aragorn and others crossed the river after Frodo and Sam they would certainly unite with them. F&S had a very small head start and were not traveling either quickly or concealing their tracks. Aragorn tracking, and all 3 Death Marching would catch F&S within hours, as a rough estimate. Then the Gollum thread could continue as before.

There is no doubt that the story would have changed with one of more extra Fellowship members on the East side of the River. I just don't know that it would change in that way with regard to Gollum.

And Welcome Parrot to Argument Central...or did you come for Abuse (sorry thats a line from Monty Python).

[HLGStrider]

Gee... Is poor little Elgee the only one here without a college education??? I don't even want to go to college... English Teacher... Guy with big sounding degrees for a landscaper... and... well, Harad told me not to tell what he was, but it sounds very educated.... Gee again... Of course, I'm, as Harad points out, not yet old enough to follow up on my presidential plans by nearly twenty years (eighteen years, to be precise), so I have an excuse...

Alandil, I AM A HER!!! Sigh... I knew I should've picked a more obvious name, but I like this... Call me Elgee or Heidi, my RPG name and Real Name.

Where was I? I thought of that "Aragorn might've ran Gollum through or at least kept him well tied" reason too, but I thought that wasn't fitting to the current debate since we were dealing with why he hadn't gone at the moment, Parrot, and I agree totally... My other thought has already been expressed... total distruction of everything on the good side of the mountains... Puts the Gone in Gondor...

Anyway, where was I?

I almost never agree with Harad, but I like him... He's a very interesting character... Just a tad bit too sensible for me to understand...

The reason Aragorn would've killed Gollum is obvious, if you go from total logic. The creature is trouble, can't trust him, might kill us in our sleep... might as well get rid of him now. He only caught him before because Gandalf wanted info. No use keeping him now...

[Parrot]

Please; you call this abuse? I'm married pal.
Monty who? Isn't he a wrestler?

[Harad]

No that's an argument. Abuse is extry.

[Quercus]

Good comments about the fate of Gollum. But you guys are assuming that Aragorn knows what's going to happen. Based on the presumed fact that Aragorn DIDN'T know what was going to happen, did he make the right choice?

I'm not sure who said it now - that Aragorn was going with his instincts. There's been plenty of times when I have wanted to kick myself in the butt for not following my instincts. However, when it comes to making an important decision (and I do believe this would be considered an important decision) logic rules.

I still hold to my case that if Aragorn had went with Frodo, the mission would have been hastened and perhaps many lives would have been spared on the battle field. But Aragorn didn't know that either, did he?

Okay, here's something that Aragorn DID know. He knew that when Frodo was approached by the Nazgul on Weathertop, he was unable to resist the temptation to put on the ring. Were it not for Aragorn bravely chasing off the Nazgul, ME would have been doomed then and there.

So, off goes Frodo with his little buddy Sam into "the darkest depths of Mordor" where all the Nazgul and the Dark Lord himself hang out. Of course, we find that Frodo is a much more formidable character than one might have originally assumed, but how could Aragorn know that? Frodo has not been tempted to put on the ring since Weathertop. Wouldn't it be wise to follow Frodo into Mordor and try to make sure that he doesn't put the ring on again?

[Parrot]

IMO, if Aragorn had decided to pursue Frodo across the river he would have done so for more straightforward reasons; you know, watch his back, keep Gollum off him, provide council, help him over the rough spots, take out the occasional orc patrol. I am not sure he would have ever thought (at least consciously) “I better go along in case he starts to screw this thing up and I have to step in.” By this point, Aragorn and the rest of the fellowship have developed a lot of respect for the strength and wisdom of Frodo in matters concerning the ring and recognize it as his burden for good or ill. If no less of the wise than Elrond and Gandalf have put their faith in Frodo, would Aragorn really second-guess?

But maybe I am missing the point in that there is a major difference between actually preventing him from using the ring and merely helping him resist the influences that make him want to use the ring. I think Aragorn probably realizes that they have been real lucky (yes, they have been courageous and resourceful also, but luck has been a major player) in the confrontations with the Nazgul so far, and if it happens again, especially within the confines of Mordor, there will be little that he (or anyone short of Gandalf, Glorfindel, et al) can do to help him, or save the ring. He is trusting the little guy who brought it this far and rolling the dice, not such a bad thing.

This may have been covered elsewhere, if so I apologize, but here is another aspect of Aragorn’s decision. Although I don’t believe that the Paths of the Dead are ever mentioned before the meeting with Elrohir and Elladan (sp?) bearing Elrond’s message, is it possible that Aragorn is already considering this hole card and knowing that he is the only one who can raise them, helping influence his decision? Rescuing M&P, and bringing Anduril to Minas Tirith aside, he alone has the power to raise a whole army (of the freakin’ dead no less). No small consideration.

[HLGStrider]

I don't know... He was hesitant to do it, so I don't think so. Remember, he only decided to do that when he saw the Corsair fleet in the Plantir... He told the sons of Elrond "Long will something something before I take that path..." Forgive my memory and I am in too much of a hurry to research, but I think you'll remember the spot...

He probably had other plans for his conquests, however, since he meant to go that way in the first place.

[Parrot]

Yes, HLG, after further review of the related passages I agree that this was unlikely. He does not seem to have even considered this a real option before using the stone; (paraphrased) 'Great will be my haste indeed ere I take that road.' My bad.

[Snaga]

Harad is right: this is not a rational decision. Aragorn says its from his heart. He post-rationalises - Frodo hard to find, M&P torment and death. But is an intuitive decision. Aragorn uses intuition on a number of occasions; and this is a case of the right brain comes in because the left brain is getting nowhere.

The decision isn't completely unambiguous, or Gimli and Legolas would have raised objections. If it was an easy choice we wouldn't be debating it.

The Numenorean kings are blessed with foresight: and it serves him well. Aragorn decision is completely correct because it works. He has foresight, we have hindsight - the conclusion is the same.

[HLGStrider]

Five to one, Harad won't accept that... I like it though...

[Harad]

Harad is right

I accept.

[Aldanil]

Or to put it more fully, I take exception.


(and you all were shocked and surprised to hear that, I'm sure :rolleyes: )

[Harad]

The current "theory a la mode" is that logically (sensibly) speaking Aragorn should have pursued the Quest as the de facto leader after Gandalf fell, but that "intuition" led him to take the other path.

The "proof" that his intuition was correct: look how well everything worked out!

Get a grip, people. This is a story. OF COURSE, it will work out: the author planned it that way. Who do you think was in control--the story or the author. This kind of "proof" can only be valid in real life. Even then...I believe its more luck than anything else. But luck IS the most important thing.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Right, Harad... everything worked out. The author was in control. Just think, if the story was in control, the Quest might have failed, and Sauron might have won.

And if he had, just think how terrible our world would be today, full of war, injustice, cruelty, hatred, and suffering.

Yeah, good thing the story wasn't in control.

[Harad]

Your sarcasm is wasted. "The story" is in control in reality (remember that?). To say things "worked out for the best" in fiction is beyond "sarcasm."

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Harad
Even then...I believe its more luck than anything else. But luck IS the most important thing.

But Harad... in Tolkien's middle-earth, "chance" (ie luck) is a codeword for Providence-- ie, direct intervention in history by a benevolent creator God in order to twart the designs of fallen angels.

"... a chance meeting, as we say in middle-earth..."

[Harad]

Goro,

When I mentioned "Luck" I was talking about the real world. There is one--I vaguely remember it.

I don't know about JRRT's views on luck etc, so I won't comment.

The idea that Aragorn's use of "intuition" is justified by the "results" is a circular argument, since both his "intuition" and the "results" were written to be in accord by JRRT.

[HLGStrider]

REAL WORLD!!!! :eek: There's such a thing... I've decided to boycott it then...

I personally believe that there is a devine providence working in this world, but I also believe God does not encourage us to throw ourselves off roofs and see if the angels will catch us... etc...

Anyway, I don't think that has to be so circular. What we have here is two methods:

Follow heart and intuition, which Harad says is silly and may be right, but intuition is generally accepted as magical foresight in fantasy.

It is just as circular to say that the other method, logic, would work. It is logical because it should work and it works because it is logical...

There are seers in Tolkiens world, visions that come true or lead you to do something, and all sorts of things like that (magic mirrors, plantirs... etc.). Why should we doubt that Aragorn would trust a similar feeling when he's been surrounded by them all his life?

[Harad]

One can do whatever one wants in the real world or in fiction.

You can stand on the edge of a roof and think: logically if I step off, I will be much shorter when I land. Or you can think, my intuition tells me that I will land in fine form.

You can buy stocks either way, and intuition and logic may do just as well. In this case there is an objective criterion to decide "just as well." Both the intuitive and the logician made as much money.

Some things work....somethings dont...only evalutaion of the results can decide. If Aragorn decided to jump off the roof and landed in fine form then the conclusion is: his intuition was terrific. Still you may not agree with his decision, if youre real picky.

[HLGStrider]

And you are "real picky" aren't you...

I think it was less obvious to lead to distruction than jumping off the roof... You like to exaggerate to make a point...

I wonder if we really can do whatever we want.... Hum...I know I can't be on line as long as I want. My parents restrict it... boo hoo :(

[Harad]

And you are "real picky" aren't you...

Jumping off a roof is likely to kill only you...and whomever you land upon.

Letting the Quest fail is likely to lead to the destruction of your world. Better be AWFULLY sure of your intuition in that case.

[Goro Shimura]

When I mentioned "Luck" I was talking about the real world. There is one--I vaguely remember it.

But of course you realize that Tolkien believed there really was a benevolent Creator setting the course of history to fulfill his own purposes.... He built his myth upon the same metaphysics that believed "the Real World" to actually consist of.

Decision making in Tolkien's world cannot be understood with logic and utilitarianism alone. Discernment, in Tolkien's view, would necessarily include the consulting of higher spiritual powers.

[Goro Shimura]

Lord Acton:
"A man of ordinary proportion or inferior metal knows not how to think out the rounded circle of his thought, how to divest his will of its surroundings and to rise above the pressure of time and race and circumstance, to choose the star that guides his course, to correct, and test, and assay his convictions by the light within, and, with resolute conscience and ideal courage, to remodel and reconstitute the character which birth and education gave him."
The notion that any decision-- political or even strategic-- should be made without respect to God... that's a very new and untested notion that was horrible to Tolkien.

If Aragorn and Gandalf could function that way, then they would be Post-Modernists wandering within a tale built upon Pre-Modern ideals and notions.

That doesn't make sense.

Any attempt to judge their decisions from a purely logical or utilitarian standpoint is sure to lead to confusion.

[HLGStrider]

So we've summed it up as Aragorn made a decision based on instinct mixed with devine intervention which wasn't quite logical in a Harad style, but worked out well in the long run...

[Goro Shimura]

Right...

Harad has a bit of scorn for the view that Aragorn's decisions were made upon "intuition" and with a reliance upon mere "luck" to see to it that everything works out.

In a world where Boromir and Faramir can be summoned to the Council of Elrond through prophetic dreams, I don't think it is too out of line to assert that intuition in that world may, for the virtuous, be a link to a sort of divine leading-- an "inner light" that is one with the Fire of Iluvatar. (It's no accident that Aragorn is a decendent of 'The Faithful' and Gandalf is a 'Servant of the Secret Flame.)

Reliance upon that sort of intuition is actually logical in a world where the Creator is an active participant in history... (or should I say the author of history?!)

In Tolkien's world, the story is not "in control"-- and neither is the author, technically. God remains in control from the moment of creation to the final denoument. "Luck" is therefore not a flaw in the plot, but is rather the intervention of the Creator.

So, Aragorn's choices cannot be understood fully when the metaphysical underpinnings of Middle Earth are tacitly rejected. Harad's frustration with the actions of Tolkien's characters is a result of his ignorance of Tolkien's God.

[Quercus]

Can't you come up with a better term than 'GOD'? For me the word God always conjures up an image of an old guy with a long grey beard, and we've already got Gandalf playing that part!

[Harad]

Goro,

To resort to interventions from deities is the last result of people at the end of their logical rope. Even JRRT rejected active intervention from deities in his books, until there was no other hope. If you think the deities micromanaged decisions by the characters--Aragorn deciding to go East or West--then you have thrown free-will out the window. Listening to all you arguments, that doesnt surprise me.

[Strider97]

I do not believe that Aragorn based his decision on his hope for divine intervention. I believe he considered the Ring to be the charge of the ringbearer and that the ringbearer had made his decision for good or evil. Aragorn said that it was now beyond his control. His decision to seek Pippin/Merry and to go to Gondor simply followed his earlier reasoning in the chapter "The Ring goes South" wwhere he told Frodo that our paths lie together for many miles before I head to Gondor. Aragorn believed in fate and adherance to duty. His was to go to Gondor and protect/acquire his kingdom. Frodo's was to bear and if possible destroy the Ring. Aragorn possibly believed that the quest would fail but that Sauron might not acquire the Ring at all aand that his forces would be defeated by arms.

[Harad]

Aragorn possibly believed that the quest would fail but that Sauron might not acquire the Ring at all aand that his forces would be defeated by arms.

Then you must believe that Aragorn slept through the Council of Elrond. In the CoE it was CLEARLY pointed out that Sauron could NOT be defeated by force of arms without destroying the Ring.

Aragorn's personal goals had to be set aside when Gandalf fell in Moria. Aragorn was then the de facto leader of the Fellowship. Despite what Aragorn had said before, and despite the self-serving words about "the ringbearer is beyond our help" (What nonsense!) his duty was to ensure that the Quest succeeded.

[Strider97]

Harad: Aragorn was then the de facto leader of the Fellowship. Despite what Aragorn had said before, and despite the self-serving words about "the ringbearer is beyond our help" (What nonsense!) his duty was to ensure that the Quest succeeded.

Harad,

I believe that Aragorn listened closely to the Council of Elrond when Elrond asserted that 'I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will".

Elrond " I can see very little of your (Frodo's) road and how your (Frodo's) task is to be achieved I do not know.

Elrond " This is my last word, The Ringbearer is setting out on the Quest of Mt. Doom. On him alone is any charge laid... The others go as free companions..,You may tarry, or come back or turn aside onto other paths as chance allows...and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.

Harad instead of debating the main point you attacked a minor point. Neither Gandalf or Aragorn were the leader of the Quest. That honor and responsibility fell totally upon Frodo. If he chose to end the fellowship when he did that was his decision not Aragorn's. He had that right and Aragorn honored his decision. Aragorn said later in "The Breaking of the Fellowship" "He (Frodo) is debating which course is the most desperate" and later "Which way would any of us choose in Frodo's place?"

Aragorn later (same chapter) He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think it is our part to drive him one way or another.... There are other powers at work far stronger.

In the Two Towers "The Departure of Boromir" Aragorn, " I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end;... My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part"

Frodo decided to go to Mordor with Sam and not lead the remainder of the Company into danger or temptation. It was his decision to make. Aragorn understanding the charge of Elrond, his role and the other powers at work honored that decision"

The decision that Aragorn made was to follow his companions and leave no man (Hobbit) behind. Truly an admirable quality for a warrior.

Was Aragorn's decision(s) correct-
The decision to honor the decision of the Ringbearer- Yes
The Decision to help his compatriots- Yes

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Strider97


"There are other powers at work far stronger."

"My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer." Harad,

What are the "powers" that Aragorn first refers to?

If Frodo's fate is not longer in Aragorn's hands... then whose hands is he in?

[Instead of final Jeopardy theme music, Goro begins humming the tune of "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands"....] ;)

[daisy]

Well I am not Harad...

But I have always taken the 'other powers' statement to mean that aragorn recognises he and the other members of the Fellowship were but small pieces of a large puzzle and that they have no direct power to change the course of what will happen - the other powers could be fate, supernatural trysts between good and evil etc.

Also,I believe Frodo's fate is in the hands of well...fate - and his own. Frodo is the ringbearer and makes decisions but he is also affected by the ring itself, Gollum, Mordor, elfmagic etc. And luck.

Aragorn I believe would have never made it into Mordor without detection and therefore would have destroyed any chances of success-

A while ago I started a thread about whether Gandalf should have tried to catch up with Sam and Frodo after his resurrection - especially with the added bonus of Shadowfax-and most respondents stated that he would have actually hindered the process of the ring being destroyed and he may have known that...so he went where he would be most effective, as did Aragorn - his time had come to become who he truly was....

[Strider97]

Daisy,

I agree with you and believe personally that it was fate that would decide the course of events. But that is my belief as a secularist. I believe, however, that Tolkien had given Aragorn, Elrond & the Elves, and Gandalf a certain religious belief in Gods, mystical powers and higher authorities. Whether we agree with those believes or not I believe that the evidence(here comes Harad)is there that these believes affected their actions just as our value system affects our actions.

[Harad]

Strider97 and cohorts,

Why a Fellowship? I did not focus on a minor point but on a crucial point. There was a Fellowship to help Frodo. Gandalf says specifically that he will accompany Frodo as long as the "burden is his to bear." Gandalf falls. Aragorn knows that he is the leader in place of Gandalf. He says so himself.

1. "The Ringbearer is beyond our hands." What utter nonsense! Aragorn could have caught up with Frodo & Sam within hours. Not only was he the best tracker on ME, but an excellent Death Marcher. F&S were moving very slowly and not concealing their tracks. Cant you recognize a false, self-serving excuse when you hear it?

2. A general that abandons his STRATEGIC goals to save two soldiers in his army, deserves the defeat that should come along with this decision. How can you praise a decision that could very well condemn Middle Earth to destruction?

3. The idea that Aragorn, the best tracker, and the best man in fight on Middle Earth, makes the Mordor invasion party WEAKER, is so ridiculous, only people trying to defend the indefensible, would keep bringing it up.

[HLGStrider]

I have been thinking about it, and I believe that Tolkien didn't go deeply into the religious side of Middle Earth... ie the Valar, Iluvatar... because he was writing a myth, the legendary past he wished England could have. To do so, he had to give it pagan gods, and since he was a Christian, it would've been hard for him to bow to them even books. Still, I belive he put in devine providence, similar to what Christians believe in. Whether this came from the Valar or just a general sense of right and wrong, or fate, in his world, I know not.

[HLGStrider]

Go ahead Harad... Post while I'm posting... Get in there before me... I don't mind... :)

Seriously, is Aragorn the general? Was he the true leader? I've already mentioned, that in the true spirit of the American Republic, I've always sort of disliked the way he jumps right in to the position, but I guess Tolkien was British so he wouldn't have considered that...

Anyway, I always thought he was on his way to Gondor anyway, and had been planning to take that route no matter what... then trouble comes and he doesn't have Gandalf, so he's trying to decide what to do... POOF! Frodo vanishes (Quite literally). Oh well... Fate's decreed. Takes a moment out to pray or consult higher powers or whatever you want to call it "Probing his self conscious for a higher goal" etc. Comes up with an answer. Does it.. Not at all logical, but hardly self serving.

[Strider97]

Harad,

1. Aragorn did not say that the Ringbearer was beyond his hands but that the fate of the ringbearer was beyond them. Frodo had made his decision as the one charged with the quest. I never questioned that he could catch up with Frodo and Sam. The fact was that he decided to honor Frodo's decision and maintain his original course to Gondor.

2. Aragorn's strategic goals was to strengthen Gondor to the best of his ability to hold off Sauron while the ringbearer was able to complete his quest. Frodo's strategic goal was to complete the quest.

3. Not my point but I believe that Aragorn would have helped Frodo to the gates of Mordor but the possibility of his being revealed would have been greater. He was better able to serve the mission by his role at Helms Deep and via the Paths of the Dead (which only he in all of Middle Earth could accomplish)

The main point was that the decision to break the fellowship was Frodo's not Aragorns. That was his charge.

Gandalf served the role of counsellor not leader. Aragorn as guide and advisor and even in that role he did not feel that he had the right to influence Frodo's decisions-

Aragorn in the Breaking of the Fellowship, "He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think it is our part to drive him one way or another"

[Aldanil]

You make the case very cogently, Strider97, as several others on this thread have done before you; since the person you're debating with, however, prefers to characterize any argument that challenges or refutes his own as "ridiculous", "false, self-serving", "indefensible", or "utter nonsense", I doubt that your penetrating eloquence will have much effect on the Oliphaunt's impervious hide.

[Harad]

1. "the fate of the Ringbearer is beyond our hands" Not if you get on your little boat and paddle across the river. The "decision" by Frodo was to escape from Boromir. As opposed to the movie, Aragorn does not know what is in Frodo's mind.

2.why a fellowship? Aragorn was part of the fellowship to help frodo get to the goal. If the Quest fails, any amount of strenghting, wont matter. If the quest succeeds then weakening is also not crucial. The Quest is the bottom line. Not strengthening Gondor.

3. why a fellowship? to help. Gandalf ssssneaked into Dol Guldur. F&S into Morrrdorrr. What was Aragorn? An idiot? Cant ssssssssssneak?

I do not think it is our part to drive him one way or another

eggzactly. Its YOUR job to support him after he makes his decision.

[Aldanil]

Precisely so, Harad; and the Ringbearer's decision was to go ALONE. The only reason that Frodo took Sam along with him to meet near-certain death was because he couldn't let his friend drown swimming after the boat.

When it comes to ssssneaking, it's no disrespect to the greatest Ranger of the Age (superlative warrior and tracker both, the Heir of Isildur bearing the Flame of the West) to say that a pair of soft-footed hobbits with Gollum to guide them could find a quieter and more surreptitious way into Mordor. Does Aragorn know where the spare keys to the Morannon are kept, under a particular big rock just outside the Black Gate, or would he have carried Frodo on his back over the impassable Mountains of Shadow? Somehow I can't see him steering the course of the Quest to the Stairs of Cirith Ungol...

[Harad]

Whatever his path, the Chieftain of the Rangers and best fighter of the Age would have surpassed a couple of hobbits who were by training a man of leisure and a gardner.

[Strider97]

Thanks Aldanil for the support. Your debate points are well taken. As my olf gaffer use to say,'The only thing worse then arguing with yourself is arguing with someone who won't listen'.

Harad-

I agree that Strider would have been of immense help in assisting Frodo on his path. But that would have dimininished the friends and enemies Frodo and Sam met along the way. Gollum probably would be dead or at least not close enough on the scene to make the difference in the end.Gondor would have been overrun and destroyed without the assistance of the dead and the Riders of Rohan. Faramirs role would have been diminished or never met by Frodo and Sam. Who can make a clear point that Rohan would have arrived in time without Aragorn's role at Helms Deep and the muster of Rohan. And I know you particularly hate this argument but as the old gaffer use to say "All's well that ends well."

We have all make great decisions that turned to Sh**-
We have all made what we thought initially were bad decisions that turned out good-

Que sera sera

[Harad]

Thanks Aldanil for supporting the other side, since the errors of ones opponents help as much as the truth of ones arguments.

The only thing worse then arguing with yourself is arguing with someone who won't listen

Isnt it hilarious how master debators forget to apply their prinicple TO THEMSELVES? LOL

As if, an author could not tailor the ensuing action to the new situation with Aragorn going to Mordor, as was his primary duty. Its an argument desperatly searching for some, any, basis.

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Goroshimura
Harad,

What are the "powers" that Aragorn first refers to?

If Frodo's fate is not longer in Aragorn's hands... then whose hands is he in?

[Instead of final Jeopardy theme music, Goro begins humming the tune of "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands"....] ;) "There are other powers at work far stronger."

"My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer."


Harad... aren't you going to answer my questions?

[Ducks in anticipation of scorn....]

[Aldanil]

Given the Oliphaunt's near-surreal speed in replying to a challenge, dear Goro, this consolation may well arrive only after the fact (although actually answering any substantive argument does often seem to take him rather longer in responding), but your ducking down "in anticipation of scorn" reminded me of William Blake's wisdom-saying from his Proverbs of Hell:

"Listen to the fool's reproach! it is a kingly title!"

(Which rhetorical regalia we may fully expect to see our esteemed foe-man presently crown himself withal, in finest Napoleonic fashion...)

[Strider97]

I need to sign off for a few days to attend to family business. My dear mums having surgery. I will pick this thread up when I return-

Harad- It is always enjoyable. Please provide some evidence that Aragorn is charged anywhere with going to Mordor in support of the quest. Harad: new situation with Aragorn going to Mordor, as was his primary duty

Elrond made it quite clear what the role of each member of the fellowsip included. Even Galadriel would not advise on a change of plans. With her vision and her anticipation of Boromirs betrayal I believe that she would have councelled Aragorn to accompany the ringbearer if that was his true future role. She had an extremely vested interest and even more sight then Elrond. In fact it was the Ringbearer and his servant Sam, only, that she took to the Mirror of Galadriel. This really just came to me but I believe that was a great foreshadowing of the breaking of the fellowship and Galadriel's omniscience.She knew which two would carry the Burden and wanted to provide aid and support. Thanks, Strider.

[Harad]

Goro:
In fiction as well as real life, cop outs abound. To leave "fate" in the hands of some supernatural power, which I guess is your bent in both cases, is not my choice. Even religionists have heard of "God helps those who helps themselves." It was eminently within Aragorn's power to help, himself and Frodo. To say the "fate" was in another's, nebulous hands, is the ultimate cop out. You may prefer such a path. I do not.

Aldanil:
As usual multisyllabels couch lack of ideas. The very definition of pomposity. I expect to see your icon in the next edition of OED and Websters illustrating the term.personal attack

Strider97:
Best of luck to your mum.

The Fellowship has a purpose. I have yet to hear your idea of what that purpose is.

Gandalf says at first:
'And now,' said the wizard, turning back to Frodo, 'the decision lies with you. But I will always help you.' He laid his hand on Frodo's shoulder. 'I will help you bear this burden, as long as It is yours to bear. But we must do something, soon. The Enemy is moving.'

Could anything be less ambiguous?

The instance that Gandalf falls:


. With a cry Aragorn roused them.
'Come! I will lead you now! ' he called. 'We must obey his last command. Follow me!

then:


'Soon it becomes a swift river, and it gathers water from many other mountain-streams,' said Aragorn. `Our road leads beside it for many miles. For I shall take you by the road that Gandalf chose, and first I hope to come to the woods where the Silverlode flows into the Great River-out yonder.'

as he becomes the new leader of the Fellowship.


`We have not decided our course,' said Aragorn. 'Beyond Lothlórien I do not know what Gandalf intended to do. Indeed I do not think that even he had any clear purpose.'

As he takes over the decision making process.


`If my advice is heeded, it will be the western shore, and the way to Minas Tirith,' answered Boromir. `But I am not the leader of the Company.' The others said nothing, and Aragorn looked doubtful and troubled.

as his leadership is acknowledged.

Finally:


His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir. And yet what help could he or any of the Company give to Frodo, save to walk blindly with him into the darkness?

WHAT COULD BE MORE CLEAR???

Then when F&S cross the river and M&P are captured, the excuse arises for him to do what he really wanted all along: go west. This is the story that JRRT wanted to tell. But it does not jive well, IMO, with the overriding duty of the character Aragorn.

[Bill the Pony]

And yet what help could he or any of the Company give to Frodo, save to walk blindly with him into the darkness?
Ah, so Aragorn himself thinks he can be of no use to Frodo. That's the exact argument a number of people have made, and now he makes it himself.
So Aragorn perceives his choice as: go after Frodo and be useless, or go after M&P, rescue them and so help the quest AND be save two friends from torture and death.

[Harad]

Maybe the phrase "cop out" is not clear to Ponys. In plainer English its: forgoing a required action for spurious reasons.

Aragorn was the premier tracker, ranger, and fighter in ME. He is supposed to believe, Ponys believe, and the assorted multitudes herein believe, that Aragorn would not effectively contribute, to a Quest through enemy territory. The other members of this party are Frodo (trained as a Hobbit-of-leisure) and Sam (trained as a gardner. Mabye, just maybe, Aragorn could help.

Suspending your disbelief is one thing, but suspending your thought process is entirely different.

[Goro Shimura]

Well Harad... so you think reliance on providence is "the ultimate cop-out...." Very interesting.... Then I suppose you think Jefferson & Washington were as much in error as our dear Aragorn?

The Declaration of Independence:We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.George Washington's Farewell Address:Though, in reviewing the incidents of my administration, I am unconscious of intentional error, I am nevertheless too sensible of my defects not to think it probable that I may have committed many errors. Whatever they may be, I fervently beseech the Almighty to avert or mitigate the evils to which they may tend.In a world where God is real, relying on providence is not a "cop-out." It's a virtue called faith.

I suggest that it is no accident that Aragorn is a descendent "The Faithful" of Numenor. Nor is it an accident that Faramir and his men have a moment of silence while looking to the West before each meal. (Christians have a very similiar custom....)

[Roseberry]

Harad:In fiction as well as real life, cop outs abound. To leave "fate" in the hands of some supernatural power, which I guess is your bent in both cases, is not my choice. Even religionists have heard of "God helps those who helps themselves."

I don't see that having supernatural power at work in fiction or real life is a cop out. In the case of LOTR, you have to wonder - when Gandalf tells Frodo:
Behind that [Bilbo's finding the Ring] there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was *meant* to find the Ring, and *not* by its maker. In which case you also were *meant* to have it.
Religionist or not, in this case, who "meant" it to happen?

[Harad]

Roseberry:
This IS a fantasy novel. The case you quote regarding the disposition of the Ring shows the workings (at least in Gandalf's view) of supernatural powers.

The case of Aragorn abidicating his responsibility and leaving it to "fate" is entirely different.

Goro:
What utter nonsense. Jefferson and Washington wrote down highsounding words and then shouldered their rifles and fought a revolution. They didnt RELY on supernatural powers.

[Roseberry]

Well, definitely in the book, Aragorn makes it clear that it's his own choice, not "fate," except insofar as his heart tells him to go to the aid of Merry & Pippin. It's definitely the opposite of our modern "good of the many outweighs good of the few," but it makes Aragorn more of a hero in my eyes.

So in this case, there's no supernatural intervention per se, except that Aragorn trusts that Frodo's fate is out of his hands (and so, implicitly, in someone else's hands - fate or supernatural whatever).

[Harad]

It's definitely the opposite of our modern "good of the many outweighs good of the few," but it makes Aragorn more of a hero in my eyes.

modern?????????????

I hope I am not in the busload of people who are sent carreening over a cliff because your hero decided to save the baby buggy from the falling rock, instead.

"more of a hero"????????

Tell it to the families of the people in the bus.

[Roseberry]

Modern in the sense of non-ancient. Not post-modern, which is now.

And I'm not convinced it's always clear-cut whether it should be the baby buggy or the bus. Maybe part of being a hero is having the guts to make a hard choice. In Aragorn's case, his choice worked out pretty darned well . . .

[Harad]

Originally posted by Roseberry
And I'm not convinced it's always clear-cut whether it should be the baby buggy or the bus.

I'd like to know a good reason to save one baby over a busload of people. This should be interesting.


In Aragorn's case, his choice worked out pretty darned well . . .

Hello? It worked out "well" because JRRT wrote it that way. That says nothing about the internal logic of the story.

[Roseberry]

It's a fantasy, remember? Why does it have to follow internal logic? Should we start citing all the different passages in LOTR in which something "just happens" at the right time without necessarily having a logical precedent?

In addition, if you want to follow modern (or postmodern) thinking, you could also apply the maxim that the ends justifies the means. That would exonerate Aragorn's choice as well.

[Elanor2]

I agree with Roseberry. This is Tolkien's world. In this world, things like fate, predestination, profecy... happen.

A true hero (and Aragorn is as close as a true hero as we can get in Tolkien's world) acceps the world were he lives and makes the best of it. Even when it seems illogical. Logic is not the only major player in Tolkien's world, where other things also important.

Logic is a product of a greek-roman world, where we belong now. In other thinking systems, logic is also not an issue. For example, the Mahabaratha (I hope spelling is correct) is full of illogical decisions, fate, gods and like. For them, Aragorn's decision would be fully consistent, while other elaborated decisions and reasonings of the caracters would be redundant and senseless.

Tolkien was also a child of this world, so there is a duality of thinking in many cases. So it makes it more challenging to analyse his work, because it mixes two different kinds of thinking systems, from my point of view.

[HLGStrider]

Actually, I'm not sure how modern that theory of Many before few is. I was reading about it in History today so now I get a rare chance to talk educated... It was a late 19th century thing, utilitarianism. I believe this was also in Machiaveli's book the Prince (Which I have read), though it was more like might makes right, which was written in the 15 or 1600's.

I don't think that sense can over ride right or wrong, but I also think it was the choice between too evils, and Aragorn followed his hearts...

Okay, Harad, now you've annoyed me.

Quote: What utter nonsense. Jefferson and Washington wrote down highsounding words and then shouldered their rifles and fought a revolution. They didnt RELY on supernatural powers

NOT TRUE!!!

George Washington prayed daily. Jefferson was a little unsure of his faith, I think. He believed in right and wrong and a truly just God, he just wasn't sure if he wanted to believe in Christianity (I think he once said something about not believing in miracles.). They did believe in this, however. It wasn't high sounding words. It was what they considered truth. They did act, of course, and though "God helps those who help themselves" is NOT in the Bible, it seems to make sense. The founders were great, God fearing men. They believed in an orderly universe, an ordering God, and higher law. There... You got me to be annoyed, and I talked, and I'm not annoyed anymore... Not that you care of course :)

[baraka]

Aragorn in the breaking of the Fellowship
1. Follow F & S.
2. Follow M & P.
3. Have Aragorn divide the remaining of the Co. in 2 grops, one to follow F & S and the other to follow M & P.

Because of the importance of the quest i believe that option 3 or 1 would have been a better choice in that time. Say have Legolas and Gimli follow M & P and leave Aragorn (a ranger) to track down F & S.

But to have left F & S alone , to me it is unconceivable. Not knowing the future, could Aragorn know that is was better for him to leave F&S behind. I don´t think so.

[Harad]

HLGS:

The phrase is "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition." One can pray all they want, and it may help, but in the Real World, you better help yourself. To say that Aragorn decided to trust Providence, or whatever passes for Providence in LOTR, rather than helping himself, is a copout.

And BTW having seen the movie again, one can see how PJ, an artist in his own right handles the issues. He gives sufficient motivation for Aragorn. Without that, I couldnt agree more with what Baraka has written.

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Harad
What utter nonsense. Jefferson and Washington wrote down highsounding words and then shouldered their rifles and fought a revolution. They didnt RELY on supernatural powers. Harad,

Lets, for a moment, entertain the possibility that George Washington was nothing more than a religious racketeer that wrote "highsounding words" in cold blood in order to manipulate the American public-- as you so condescendingly seem to suggest, my dear Harad.

If that is true, then we should be able to find within his personal correspondence some evidence a differernt persona than the one he projected to the public. I do not believe that such evidence can be procured.

But what do we find in a letter he wrote to his brother in 1755?But by the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability or expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet escaped unhurt, although death was leveling my companions on every side of me!Looks to me as if his faith was something more than a convenient rhetorical device!

[daisy]

The Aragorn decision makes sense to me when I lay it out beside the choices Jesus Christ made on the night of the Last Supper-now whether or not you believe in Jesus the narrative is there - he eats with a known traitor, prophesies everything that will happen - has the ability more than once to escape death and does not - now we know he doesn't because he had a divine purpose-I see Aragorn somewhat as a Christ figure in certain ways - he had to follow his own destiny and the path laid out for him to serve his future people etc. - why is this not reason enough - and the thing with Gollum would have played out very differently with Aragorn around - Gollum hated him and would have probably been even more destructive-ended up getting killed by Aragorn for something - and without Gollum Frodo and Sam would have never made it:

So the scenario would be: Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli go tramping like a herd of elephants after Frodo and Sam.
Or Aragorn goes alone.
Catches up with F and S
Gollum sneaks in here somewhere
Aragorn is slowly turned by the ring - so we get some sort of ugly showdown between Gollum and Aragorn re:ring and then the winner of that fight against Frodo who is basically out of it so Sam has to either fight off Gollum or Aragorn - a man three times his size....

How could this have worked out???

[Eonwe]

Even with or without Providence, it still was a hard choice:

'First we must tend to the fallen,' said Legolas. 'We cannot leave him (Boromir) lying like carrion amoung these foul Orcs.'
'But we must be swift,' said Gimli. 'He would not wish us to linger. We must follow the Orcs, if there is hope that any of our Company are living prisoners.'
'But we do not know whether the Ring-bearer is with them or not,' said Aragorn. 'Are we to abandon him? Must we not seek him first? An evil choice is now before us!'

And later:

'Our choice then,' said Gimli, 'is either to take the remaining boat and follow Frodo, or else to follow the Orcs on foot. There is little hope either way...'I will follow the Orcs,' he said at last (Aragorn). 'I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left.'

Everyone here knows this, we've all read it before a hundred times. What I see in the writing is that perhaps Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli put a high price on recovering any live captives of Orcs, as is said in their debating statements here. Perhaps it can be argued that price is too high and they should have followed Frodo and Sam. But at the time they made a difficult choice, with no knowledge of the future. Frodo and Sam went on their own into a boat and crossed the river, Boromir tells Aragorn that Merry and Pippin were taken alive.

And Aragorn says while Frodo is walking in the woods before meeting up with Boromir, that the quest to Mordor is bad with many companions or one alone. He originally picks himself, Frodo, Gimli and Sam.

I think this "evil choice" was easier to swallow for me, than say some of the other choices in the book, and I don't think it outlandish looking at the arguments the companions come up with above, that Aragorn chose how he did. Why is it so easy to say he made a terrible choice in this circumstance? Is it that cut and dried?

How about Gandalf going to Saruman to seek advice instead of going back to Hobbiton, packing up Frodo and moving out to Rivendell right away? Gandalf says later that he made a bad choice there...:)

[HLGStrider]

The phrase is "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition

Ever heard their's God every fox hole. We turn to Him more in times of trouble, and sometimes the only thing you can do is trust Him. If you're in a hard spot, I think praying and going on guidance makes sense.

[Harad]

Dear Poor Goro:


Lets, for a moment, entertain the possibility that George Washington was nothing more than a religious racketeer that wrote "highsounding words" in cold blood in order to manipulate the American public

I pity you if the above is the conclusion you come to from my words. Let me try to put into ELEMENTARY TERMS since anything more advanced seems to befuddle and bebother you.personal attack

George Washington was a PRACTICAL MAN who might follow a religion but did not trust to divine intervention to create a nation. No, he armed himself, organized an army, risked all, life, limb, property, to achieve his goal. He didnt sit around like you apparently would praying for a miracle. Perhaps, you and HLGS should get together and pray that my reasoning ability will disappear and will start buying the wooden nickels you post.personal attack

I have found the perfect comparison to what Aragorn did:


Aragorn looked at them, and there was pity in his eyes rather than wrath; for these were young men from Rohan, from Westfold far away, or husbandmen from Lossarnach, and to them Mordor had been from childhood a name of evil, and yet unreal, a legend that had no part in their simple life; and now they walked like men in a hideous dream made true, and they understood not this war nor why fate should lead them to such a pass.
'Go!' said Aragorn. 'But keep what honour you may, and do not run! And there is a task which you may attempt and so be not wholly shamed. Take your way south-west till you come to Cair Andros, and if that is still held by enemies, as I think, then re-take it, if you can; and hold it to the last in defence of Gondor and Rohan!'
Then some being shamed by his mercy overcame their fear and went on, and the others took new hope, hearing of a manful deed within their measure that they could turn to, and they departed.

Aragorn has chosen for himself a less demanding but still "manly" deed: the rescue of Merry and Pippen. Still, he has forsaken the REAL TASK: the Quest to destroy the Ring.

[Quercus]

I must agree Harad.

Also, I watched the movie AGAIN last night and noticed the great effort that PJ put forth to make Aragorn's motives noble and his choice jusifiable. Surly PJ must have thought Aragorn's decision to be a little weak too and felt he had to back it up.

Of course, there are some other (more r