Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard

[Harad]

We first hear it called "Durin's Bane" in LOTR when Gimli says:


The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane. Of what they brought to light the Orcs have gathered nearly all, and given it in tribute to Sauron, who covets it.

Soon afterwards:

Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'


Celeborn afterwards said:

'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept.

But 220 years earlier:

Up the steps after him leaped a Dwarf with a red axe. It was Dáin Ironfoot, Náin's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog, and there he slew him, and hewed off his head. That was held a great feat, for Dáin was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the Dwarves. But long life and many battles lay before him, until old but unbowed he fell at last in the War of the Ring. Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear...

Then Thráin turned to Dáin, and said: 'But surely my own kin will not desert me?' 'No,' said Dáin. 'You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

So why was everybody so surprised? After all Dain was the leader of the Dwarfs in the North, not a mythological character that nobody could talk with. Somebody might have debriefed him.

Equally odd:


Glóin sighed. `Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the children of Durin fled. But now we spoke of it again with longing, and yet with dread; for no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dûm for many lives of kings, save Thrór only, and he perished. At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dáin did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Óin and many of our folk, and they went away south.

"Dain did not give leave willingly" is rather a mild disapproval from someone who should know better.

[Mormegil]

Maybe the Elves and Gandalf did not trust Dain's judgement of what lies in Moria.
Dwarves aren't the most trustworthy of folks are they?

Also, Celeborn had a strong dislike of Dwarves and wouldn't allow them to enter his kingdom. So if he rarely spoke to, and mistrusted Dwarves, how could they have told him what Durin's Bane really was?

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

It's also possible that the dwarves didn't have a name for what it was, and that Dain's glimpse (and any subsequent description) was not sufficient for anyone to identify it as a Balrog.

Or maybe Dain simply didn't want to talk about it, as is common among people (and perhaps dwarves) who have been traumatized.

[Harad]

As far as communication: Dain was King Under the Mountain and had good relation with Brand of Dale. THerefore one would think that through Dain to Brand to Thranduil to Rivendell to Lorien, that the word could have gotten around. It had 200 years to percolate after all.

Finally when Balin left Dain (25 years before the Fellowship), wouldnt it have been time for him to spill the beans.

[Mellon]

Gandalf's logic in pursing Moria sounds strangely similar to his approval of the Dwarves plan to enter Smaug's lair under the Lonely Mountain.

Both plans relied on a stealthy approach to a relatively unknown or unused passageway. Both plans didn't figure on what to do about an important, large, and rather ticked off adversary. Both plans resulted in losses, but ultimately gained the objective sought.

[Greenwood]

Harad

What is your point here? There seems to be a somewhat widespread knowledge, at least in some quarters (dwarves, some elves, Gandalf), of something called "Durin's Bane" existing in Moria at some time. None of the quotes you have given give any evidence that anyone knew it was specifically a Balrog, if that is what you are saying. Dain could see a fearful creature when he looked into Moria without knowing what it was. In fact, his quote does not even make it certain that he saw anything. He may have just sensed a terrible thing waiting inside. Remember Gandalf's first encounter was through a closed door and he sensed the Balrog without knowing what it was. If you are saying that they knew something terrible was in Moria, that is true, but it was hundreds of years since there had been any evidence of it. It might be sleeping again deep under the mountains.

[Harad]

Greenwood:

I am glad to "point" out my "point."

The assembled Wise of ME knew of the dwarf "embarrasment" at Moria. "Embarassment" as in 1000s of losses, a city destroyed, and eviction from the premises. Dain was an eyewitness or near eyewitness of Durin's Bane. Yet 200 years pass and neither the Dwarfs nor the Elves nor the Istari knew it was a Balrog?

How many such creatures of such power were there in ME? How many had experience with a Balrog before? Well there's the illustrious Glorfindel for one. Dain did not share his info with anybody? Not even Balin, not even Gloin prior to the CoE? No one cared enough to do a postmortem on "How did we lose Moria?"

Of course the issue of Balin being incommunicado for 25 years is also swept under the rug.

I'd like some sense made of this. I've asked such questions before. The answers...


Mellon:

The quest involving Smaug is a bit different. They knew exactly what the danger was and the goal was burglary. In LOTR the quest was to avoid capture and to protect the Ring from an "unknown" danger.

[Bucky]

What IS the point here?

Did Glorfindel see Durin's Bane?
Whether there's one or 2 different Glorf's, the fact is he/they were High Elves & saw action in the First Age, hence, they most likely knew a Balrog from a Ringwraith at one glance.

But, did any other Elf who had experience in the First Age see DB prior to Gandalf entering Moria?
No.

It is quite possible that no Dwarf who got a good look at DB before the Dwarves deserted Moria actually lived to give the description to anyone else.

And, Dain (& any surviving witnesses) may well have seen just a shadow or 'felt the pressance' of DB as Gandalf did through the door.

Is the point again that Gandalf should have chose another way?
It was the ONLY way they could've gone (without a snow blower), as we've discussed ad nauseum already.....

[Harad]

Dain got enough of a "look" to have his beard curled.

Glorfindel--there was only one--ought to know Balrog. Glorfindel might even tell others. He seemed a talkative enuf type at the CoE.

A conspiracy of ME: dwarfs, elves, half elves, wizards decided to ignore the inconvenience of Moria:

Balin went there to set up shoppe, despite the experience of his King. Wouldnt Dain make inquiries as to what he saw? Wouldnt Balin quiz Dain about it? Wouldnt Gandalf know what it was based upon the descriptions? Or Glorfindel, the one and only Glorfindel?

What is your point for not seeing a point?

[Bucky]

Dwarves weren't exactly the most talkative & friendly 'race' in ME.

And there's Dain, up in the Iron Hills, quite removed from anybody who might be able to figure out what he saw.

Also, doesn't Gandalf say that there are things in the deeps of the earth, even Sauron knows them not, they are older than he? "Now, I have walked there, but will bring no report to darken the light of day."

How about The Watcher in the Water?
Isn't it pretty fair to assume that it crept out from some underground way from Moria into the lake?

Maybe 'The Wise' or 'The White Council' had sketchy evidence & assumed it was something like that.

[Harad]

Originally posted by Bucky
Dwarves weren't exactly the most talkative & friendly 'race' in ME.

except for Dain who had an exceptional relationship with Dale.


And there's Dain, up in the Iron Hills, quite removed from anybody who might be able to figure out what he saw.

see above. Plus he wouldnt talk to Balin or Gloin? Shirley you jest.

Also, doesn't Gandalf say that there are things in the deeps of the earth, even Sauron knows them not, they are older than he? "Now, I have walked there, but will bring no report to darken the light of day."

I suppose it could have been WORSE than a balrog....like....Ungoliant...different Modus Operandi.

How about The Watcher in the Water?
Isn't it pretty fair to assume that it crept out from some underground way from Moria into the lake?

The dwarfs of Moria were burnt not drowned. Dont see the connection with the Watcher, except as a random monster...like Shelob. These seem quite different in effect than a Balrog. Anybody from the First Age: Galadriel, e.g. would know about them.


Maybe 'The Wise' or 'The White Council' had sketchy evidence & assumed it was something like that.

Find out Wise! Especially after Balin goes silent for 25 years. It might be important. Gandalf worried about Smaug. Why not Moria?

[Beleg Strongbow]

It wasn't always the dwarves fault either. Remember Celeborn has a feirce hatred towards the dwarves. Thingol remember.

[Minas]

Good Question and good investigative work Harad. There seems to be plenty of evidence that people know that Moria was "Haunted" but exactly what is a little harder for them to be sure of. As for Dain allowing Balin to go back to Moria, could the oldest Dwarf enemy greed have had a part to play?

As to the lack of communication between Elves and Dwarves Iam interested to know what did spark the level of distrust between the two.

[Mellon]

Harad:

The quest involving Smaug is a bit different. They knew exactly what the danger was and the goal was burglary. In LOTR the quest was to avoid capture and to protect the Ring from an "unknown" danger.

Certainly the quests were different. But Smaug presented something of a problem in completing the burglary. The nature of the problem that he would present, the feasability of accomplishing a significant burglary in his presence, and how the team would handle his arousal were unknown, yet important issues not considered until they received their first snort of flame up the secret tunnel!

This is an interesting thread about what exactly was known about the risk in Moria... reminds me of the current search for who is accountable for knowing about 9/11. Seems that the risk was known and yet not exactly known. The goal was to get from point "A" to point "B" unscathed, despite "whatever" lay in between. Sounds like you've already discussed whether this trip was optional.

My point is that at both Moria and Lonely Mountain Gandalf consented to lead a group into known or presumed severe danger without a plan of how to deal with this.

[Elanor2]

I am not sure if I get the subject here. Is it "Did anyone know that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, or they discovered only after Gandalf says so?"

I would say that they knew that Durin's Bane = Balrog. They must have found it out when Moria was destroyed originally. After all, there were survivors of Moria's destruction, including some royal heirs (Thorin's family). And the Balrog also went out to destroy Eregion, Celebrimbor's people. Even Legolas, Aragorn and Gimly recognized the Balrog for what it was as soon as they saw it across the bridge, although probably they learned it on hearsay and by different names (from their nannies, I would say: Be good or the great fire monster will get you :) )

I would say that if Gandalf and later Celeborn were surprised it was not to find that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, but to learn that it was active again. After all, many centuries had past since the original awakening and the Balrog was never seen again. Gandalf himself had gone through Moria before and seen no Balrog. The only exception was Dain, and his single testimony might be doubted: he was tired, injured, and had just a glimpse of something inside the gate that might be some other creature. Dain himself was convinced, though, but perhaps he was not convincing enough.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Elanor2
I am not sure if I get the subject here. Is it "Did anyone know that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, or they discovered only after Gandalf says so?"

I would say that they knew that Durin's Bane = Balrog. They must have found it out when Moria was destroyed originally. After all, there were survivors of Moria's destruction, including some royal heirs (Thorin's family). And the Balrog also went out to destroy Eregion, Celebrimbor's people. Even Legolas, Aragorn and Gimly recognized the Balrog for what it was as soon as they saw it across the bridge, although probably they learned it on hearsay and by different names (from their nannies, I would say: Be good or the great fire monster will get you :) )

I would say that if Gandalf and later Celeborn were surprised it was not to find that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, but to learn that it was active again. After all, many centuries had past since the original awakening and the Balrog was never seen again. Gandalf himself had gone through Moria before and seen no Balrog. The only exception was Dain, and his single testimony might be doubted: he was tired, injured, and had just a glimpse of something inside the gate that might be some other creature. Dain himself was convinced, though, but perhaps he was not convincing enough.

I think Elanor2 has a good point. I always took Gandalf's and Celeborn's suprise in reference to the Balrog being active again and not that there was a Balrog in Moria. The Wise had to know (being Wise) and the Dwarves had to know (they have a penchant for remembering past hurts) that a Balrog had at one time been in Moria. It couldn't have left, IMO, because someone would have known - although I guess it's possible it could have "cloaked" itself in some manner.
I agree with Harad that it doesn't seem to make sense that Dain would let Balin walk into Moria knowing that the Balrog was there. I don't know how to explain it, other than the fact that, if Gimli's any indication, the Dwarves information on the world at large is either sadly lacking or plain wrong. Mix a little greed in and you have yet another Dwarf debacle.

[Elanor2]

From Tal-Palantir:
-----------------------------------------
it doesn't seem to make sense that Dain would let Balin walk into Moria knowing that the Balrog was there.
-----------------------------------------

We do not know what kind of relationship Dain and Balin had. Balin's allegiance was to Thorin, not to Dain, until the death of Thorin and his heirs (Fili and Kili). Dain was a cousin from another branch and inherited from Thorin by lack of other heirs. Balin and the other 9 dwarves were quite rich after the battle: one 14th part of the whole hoard for each, while Dain had only 3 parts (from Thorin, Fili and Kili) plus Bilbo's discarded part, and he had a kingdom to run, followers to pay, housing to restore...

I do not think that Balin and the others would go against Dain, but they would not be mindlessly obedient. They were heroes, richer individuals than the king, and Balin in particular did not sit back and relax, but went around, visited, gathered admirers and perhaps supporters...

Balin might have become too important to be ordered around even by Dain. Dain could only advise strongly against going to Moria but unable to prevent it, except by starting a civil war between him and Balin. Besides, many dwarf kingdoms started the same way, by a group of them splitting from the main "hive" and founding a new one (or recovering an old one). It was part of their tradition. I do not think that Dain could have prevented it.

[Tar-Palantir]

I can't answer to possible friction between Dain and Balin, except to say that what little characterization we get of Dain shows him to be much wiser and level-headed than....oh, to pick a name entirely at random...Thorin. We get a much clearer picture of Balin, of course, in the Hobbit. He also shows himself to be a "decent sort", at the very least.
Again, Elanor2, what you've proposed certainly sounds plausible enough and, given the Dwarves penchant for greed, maybe even "good" Dwarves can let wealth come between them.

[Eonwe]

Originally posted by Mellon
My point is that at both Moria and Lonely Mountain Gandalf consented to lead a group into known or presumed severe danger without a plan of how to deal with this.

Exactly! Great post Mellon as was your post before IMO.

See the conversation in the Quest for Erebor chapter in UT between Gimli and Gandalf after the downfall of Sauron. Gimli asks Gandalf how much he knows, how much he knew then. Gandalf responds that he knew the quest was important, that Bilbo had to go. He gets so into it just before the Quest for Erebor in a conversation with Thorin that he has a shouting match with Thorin, telling Thorin he has to trust him or fail utterly. Why?

There is no direct evidence in the books that I can find that anyone knew for sure what was in Moria. But they certainly knew it was big, bad and ugly. Besides the point of Dain seeing/sensing the Balrog, Aragorn also went through Moria, says his memory was "very evil" and that Gandalf specifically is in peril. Why would he say that? He wouldn't say that about a bunch of cave trolls against Gandalf. And Gandalf himself went through, who knows what he knew, knowing that he went to Dol Guldur himself?

The dwarves of Moria I think found the Balrog in the third age, so there wasn't traffic or travel of elves into Moria at the time, where the Balrog could have been identified? But the dwarves lived in Moria for a while, if I remember right, even after DB was found... So at least "many" dwarves would have some memory of seeing it in the middle of the third age, with some detailed descriptions?

I think the point is Gandalf went somewhere illogically (like in Erebor, I mean really the dwarves and Bilbo pilfering the whole treasure of Smaug? Even Bilbo says its the weak point of the whole affair), set up something illogical because he knew somehow in advance it was the right thing to do. How? Why? I could argue he was trying to eliminate the Balrog in the same way he was trying to eliminate Smaug, but there isn't direct evidence. And Gandalf's own words in Moria seem to say he didn't really completely know what he was getting into. Perhaps a faded memory of the music of the Ainur, or simply a feeling that it was the right thing to do?

And as far as Balin going in with a total of 25 dwarves, well even the other dwarves thought this was unwise, as per Dain's unwilling giving of leave to Balin.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Folks, let's not forget one little thing:


'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge.'



'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.'


These two lines, taken together, are totally unambiguous. Gandalf did not know there was a Balrog in Moria, even after the first time he challenged it. Only when he saw it in the Second Hall did he realize what it was.

Now, really, all we have to determine is why no one put two and two together to come up with Durin's Bane = Balrog.

I think we've seen some good suggestions already. Here are a couple other possibilities:

1. Wishful thinking. Balrogs are nasty enough that nobody would really want to consider the possibility. Kind of the way nobody gave much thought to people flying hijacked airliners into buildings until it actually happened and could no longer be denied.

2. Active magic. Balrogs are said to wrap themselves in shadow. Perhaps Moria's Balrog was able to project a kind of "stupidity field" around itself, so that any survivors who'd seen it would be unable to recall clearly what they had seen, or perhaps would be unwilling to discuss it.

3. Gandalf was a thick-witted old fool, and already more than half senile.

I doubt that many here would go for option 3...

[Bucky]

There is so much false information here, I don't know where to start.....

Let's see:

1. The Hobbit plainly states that 'There was, of course, no longer any question of dividing the hoarde in such shares as had been planned, to Balin and Dwalin.... Yet a fourteenth share was given up to Bard..."
So, Balin et all were not 'fabuously rich' after Smaug's death, no more than all the other Dwarves.

2. 'Dain did not give Balin leave to go willingly'.

3. Celebrimbor was killed & Eregion destroyed over 3000 years (2nd Age 1700) before the Balrog was released (3rd Age 1980). Nowhere is it stated that the Balrog EVER left Moria.

4. Gimli doesn't 'recognize a Balrog', he says "Durin's Bane". How hard is it to figure out this terrifying monster of fear is Durin's Bane? Even the Orcs were afraid of it.....

5.>>>The dwarfs of Moria were burnt not drowned.

Were'd you come up with that, Harad?
In fact, the one time I recall a 'death by Balrog', it says in The Silmarillion that 'Gothmog hewed him with his black axe,.... & they beat him (Fingon) into the dust with their maces...'

6. Gandalf talks about the Balrog, but he won't mention the things in the deep that he saw when they fell to the bottom of the mountain?
That would imply there was some serious creatures down there. Thanks for bringing that out, Harad; it only proves my point....

7. As for the Balrog being 'known' but thought 'dormant, hogwash.
Dain's statement at the Battle before the Gates of Moria proves SOMETHING was known to be there moving about.


BTW, The feud between the Dwarves & these Elves goes back to the First Age between Thingol (kinsman of Celeborn) & the Dwarves of Nogrod over the ownership of the Nauglimir remade with The Silmaril in it.

So, in conclusion, there isn't one shred of evidence to suppose even ONE eyewitness had seen a Balrog & lived to describe it prior to The Fellowship entering Moria.
Dain's the only one for whom a case could even be made that he saw the Balrog.

And besides, why would anyone suspect a Balrog when they were all thought destroyed at the end of the 1st Age?

You know, maybe if there were even burned victims, they would've thought it was a young dragon or Cold Drake.

[Harad]

Hogwash...hmmmm...yes that's right.

Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days.


Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.


Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds;


That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood.

All from the Sil...Enough evidence that Balrogs are associated with fire and their victims as well?

More hogwash as the points contradict each about whether they should know there is a Balrog or not:


How hard is it to figure out this terrifying monster of fear is Durin's Bane?

its easy, yet


And besides, why would anyone suspect a Balrog


its hard.


So, in conclusion, there isn't one shred of evidence to suppose even ONE eyewitness had seen a
Balrog & lived to describe it prior to The Fellowship entering Moria. Dain's the only one for whom a case could even be made that he saw the Balrog.


The best, of course, is a self-contradictory paragraph. No question: hogwash.

[aragil]

I think I'm with Bucky in that a Balrog was very unlikely to be sitting at the roots of the mountain. In Morgoth's Ring Tolkien says that there were probably only 3-7 Balrogs at any one time. He might have changed this figure later, but unless there were many more it would be very unlikely that any Balrogs had survived into the 3rd age. In that light, it probably was surprising that there was a Balrog in Moria. I can't concieve of how it would have got there, considering Khazad-dum was already an Age old by the fall of Thangorodrim, but that's probably a topic for another thread. The point is that Gandalf was surprised to find out that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, so it is probable that no matter what Dain told the wise they did not think that it was a Balrog. After all, it was so unlikely to be a Balrog that nobody would believe it, and Dain being a third age Dwarf probably did not recognize it for what it was?

[Harad]

And just what had depopulated the fabled Khazad-Dum of Dwarfs, a legendarily hardy race, not known to back down from anything? A surprisingly nasty band of Orcs? A Gang of Hell's Cave Trolls? For more than 200 years they hadnt even tried to return. Balin in his foolhardiness did and survived for 5 years. The last 25 years not a word was heard from him. Its another well-attended meeting of the "check your brain at the door of Moria" club.


Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'

Since it was only Dain Ironfoot, why pay any attention?

[Snaga]

To account for this set of facts there are two possibilities.

(1) Dain didn't see the Balrog, but felt/sensed a presence
(2) Dain saw the Balrog, did not recognise it as a Balrog, and told noone enough that they could guess

Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.' The 'looked' suggests that he did in fact see something. That's not certain, but lets set it aside as low probability.

Firstly, lets be aware that the dwarves had relatively little exposure to Balrogs. The Noldor had been smacked around all over the place by them, but dwarves didn't go up against them until the TA - thousands of years later. There's no reason to suppose the dwarves would really know of the first age tales of Balrogs, less so that they would associate their woes with them. The dwarves have their own term 'Durin's Bane', for what they would consider to be a one-off evil.

On the other hand Legolas recognises the Balrog straightaway. Legolas is not an especially learned elf so its reasonable to assume that any detailed description from Dain to even Thranduil will suffice to break the news.

But I doubt whether the Dain would tell him (or even Brand) about it. The dwarves are very secretive. This is a key part of their nature and it is not just a case of protecting wealth. They teach noone their language either. I think he thought this is a dwarf issue, noone but a dwarf needs to know.

But why he didn't tell Balin, and prevent him from going to his death? This was a moment to speak plainly! Even if the term 'Balrog' means little to dwarves as I've suggested, the term 'Durin's Bane' should. This is widely known by all dwarves: Balin clearly ignores this. I think it needs a description to reinforce the danger, if Dain has one to offer. I therefore conclude that Dain actually saw very little - because what he could tell Balin was insufficient to put him off. In which case, it explains why Gandalf and the rest of the Wise knew equally little.

[Bucky]

Really.
How would a Dwarf know it was a Balrog?
Look it up in The Silmarillion?

Thandruil (& possibly Legolas) was of the Sindar & in Beleriand in the 1st age, no?
He could've seen or had ample description of a Balrog to give to Legolas.
And, King's sons tend to be more schooled & learned than the average population.....

Harad:
Of course Balrogs used Fire, duh.
I just don't see anywhere that it ever says their victims were burned. Especially ALWAYS as you implied in your 'victims are burned' statement.
(Do I really want to print this part? LOL!)

Finally, that's a great point on Gandalf's reaction:
"A Balrog" muttered Gandalf. "Now I understand". He faltered & leaned heavily on his staff. "What an evil fortune. And I am already weary."

Sounds like surprise, not " A Balrog. DAMN! Glorfindel wins the Durin's Bane Pool".....

[Tar-Palantir]

So Gandalf, wisest of the Maia, couldn't figure out that Durin's Bane = Balrog, huh? To echo Harad's point, what else could it have been? One of the "nameless things"? Its' description would peg it, wouldn't it?

As for the Dwarves being secretive about Durin's Bane, when in all of Tolkien's works didn't the Dwarves tell everyone within shouting distance of every real and imagined hurt ever done to them?

[Harad]

Bucky says
I just see anywhere that it EVER says their victims were burned.

Then I guess you just didnt read the quotes from the Silmarillion such as "wreathed in fire" and "fire sprung from his helm." Must be those new asbestos Elves they developed.

Once again: he was surprised it was a Balrog or he wasnt surprised it was a Balrog? Dwarfs wouldnt know a Balrog? Glorfindel would? Gandalf would or wouldnt? I wonder if the Balrog's mother would recognize him? Dain saw, Dain didnt see? Dain talks, Dain doesnt talk?

Dain Ironfoot kept secret why and how the entire Dwarf City of Moria was depopulated and never re-taken. And none of the "Wise" thought it was worth understanding.

Gandalf went (snuck) through Moria at least 30 years earlier. Is that supposed to be endorsement that it was a Balrog-free zone? Especially after Balin's sudden & 25 year silence? Gandalf also went through the Dol Guldur. Did that make it a picnic ground?

[Bucky]

You guys really need to study up.....

Gandalf at the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul:

He tries to put a spell on the door.
Then, he comes flying down the steps.

Gimli: "What happened? Did you meet the beater of the drums?" (Note: Gimli doesn''t say "Did you meet Durin's Bane?")
Gandalf; "I don't know"...."All I caught was 'gnash', that is fire. Then SOMETHING came into the chamber- I felt it through the door..... It laid hold of the iron ring, and then percieved me and my spell."
What it was, I CANNOT GUESS. but I have never met such a challange..... The door burst into pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking all the light inside (maybe that's what Dain saw; remember the 'beyond the shadow' comment Dain made?).

End of discussion (except for Harad I'm sure, LOL!).
Even AFTER all this, Gandalf STILL doesn't know it's a Balrog until he SEES it later.

[Goro Shimura]

No, Bucky... I think Harad's beginning to get a case here.

If you keep up with the other threads, then you know that Gandalf is not the benevolent do-gooder we all think we know and love.

This is really all part of his cold-blooded Machiavellian Realpolitik scheming: He's feigning ignorance in order to manipulate his gullible pawns!!

This is the only logical explanation.:p

[Harad]

You really need to make some sense. Posting that quote proves what? That Gandalf didnt know, should have known, is whistling in the dark. Studying is one thing: digesting and making sense of the information is apparently something else.

ROTFLMAO

[Bucky]

Harad, Good point on the 'Fire sprung from his helm'.
Actually, it says 'white flame sprung up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloved.'

So, white flame is a 'weapon' of Balrogs?
Tolkien constantly uses 'white' to describe good, and 'black' to describe evil in his writings (not always, but most times).
So, is the white flame attributable (is that a word?) to Fingon's helm being cloven, Gothmog's axe or physical being, or a combination of both?

I'll grant you it is a possibility.

BTW, what's with the Dain arguement?
It plainly states that 'Dain did not give him leave willingly' in reference to Balin going to Moria.

Now, as to not hearing anything & 'looking into it', isn't that what Gloin is in part doing in Rivendell at the CoE?
That 25 year lapse is on The Dwarves, not The Wise.....

[Eonwe]

fyi a white flame springs from the helmet of the Orc Chieftan when Anduril comes down on his head in the Chamber 'O Marz.

[Bucky]

Harad, you are too much.

Here I am, your staunchest (and only) supporter (usually) & you're spinning out of control on me....

Why is it that every time a discussion starts, everyone can usually see the proof presented is clear but you?
Do we have a problem, like Fonzi, saying "I'm wrong"?

As my father used to tell me "You're right & the world's wrong."


BTW, I won't get in a 'Flame' War with you as others have.

Pun intended......

[Snaga]

WTF? You're all gibbering, but I haven't got clue what you're trying to say. Someone please recap, preferably without too rolling around otflyao please. There's so much sarcasm in this thread I can't make out what you actually mean, and what's completely hilarious.:confused: :mad:

[Harad]

Bucky, youre too little:
The rare instances that you agree with me show that you are not irredeemably lost.

I really cant explicate your back and forth posts on this thread. Your "proof"? Of what? It is to laugh, harshly.

Better for you not to enjoin (somebody?) to "study" more and call their posts "hogwash." Better for you to get your own Buckland in order.

The "poor little unassuming me pose" is hilarious considering your words quoted in the preceding sentence.

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Donnie B.
Folks, let's not forget one little thing:



These two lines, taken together, are totally unambiguous. Gandalf did not know there was a Balrog in Moria, even after the first time he challenged it. Only when he saw it in the Second Hall did he realize what it was.

Now, really, all we have to determine is why no one put two and two together to come up with Durin's Bane = Balrog.

I think we've seen some good suggestions already. Here are a couple other possibilities:

1. Wishful thinking. Balrogs are nasty enough that nobody would really want to consider the possibility. Kind of the way nobody gave much thought to people flying hijacked airliners into buildings until it actually happened and could no longer be denied.

2. Active magic. Balrogs are said to wrap themselves in shadow. Perhaps Moria's Balrog was able to project a kind of "stupidity field" around itself, so that any survivors who'd seen it would be unable to recall clearly what they had seen, or perhaps would be unwilling to discuss it.

3. Gandalf was a thick-witted old fool, and already more than half senile.

I doubt that many here would go for option 3...



I think Donnie has a point here.

Also add to the wishful thinking & shadow wrappings:
a) Lack of Survivors or eye witnesses...
b) Lack of Autopsy...
c) Lack of Gossip Columnists...
d) General lack of desire of ME people to speak of traumatic experiences...
e) Too many known and active enemies to bother with "Loch Ness Monster" types...
f) No "Jane's Guide" to ME Monster sillouettes...

Could someone summarize the evidence for anyone being able to ID the balrog before Gandalf figures it out?

[Harad]

My Summary would be:

1. The whole history of Dwarfs in Moria. What could have depopulated the Dwarf city and kept it that way? This is circumstantial.

2. Many including Gandalf and Aragorn had been to Moria so there must have been physical evidence. Even the asbestos Dwarfs would have been singed by the whip of flames.

3. Dain's eyewitness report. Dain was living, and an ally of Gandalf. He was available for 200 years to be debriefed.

[Goro Shimura]

1) The dwarfs could have been destroyed by just about anything...
2) Decayed dwarf carcases may not have provided any conclusive evidence...
3) Dain may not have gotten a good look... and may not have even known a Blarog by sight.


Sorry Harad... it's just not that strong of a case.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Goroshimura
1) The dwarfs could have been destroyed by just about anything...
2) Decayed dwarf carcases may not have provided any conclusive evidence...
3) Dain may not have gotten a good look... and may not have even known a Blarog by sight.


Sorry Harad... it's just not that strong of a case.

Again, I don't think it would have taken much of a description for anyone of the Wise to recognize it as a Balrog. Anything else in LOTR look simliar to a Balrog? Anything else fight like it? Dain may not have known what a Balrog looked like, but his description would have set off alarms to Gandalf, Elrond, etc....

[Harad]

Sorry Goro, but I think the objections are lame:

1. Tell me another instance of a Dwarf City being abandonned, or "destroyed by just about anything." Thats absurd on the face of it.

2. The effects of a Balrog in battle, by the application of common sense, are quite distinguishable from any other foe you can name. I never get the idea that no one escaped alive from Moria, and certainly Dain did.

3. As usual, this is the "Dain is an idiot...doesnt know and doesnt want to know--neither does anybody else" theory. A good one for some, but I think I will pass.

"Whistling past the graveyard" is a situation that everybody knows or should know, but no one acknowledges. That's what describes the Durin's Bane thread.

[Goro Shimura]

Okay... so maybe we can't get conclusive evidence either way.

If that is the case, then we have to assume that Tolkien knew what he was doing... and that there is a plausible reason for Gandalf not knowing, though JRRT may not have set anything down that would indeed shed any light on the subject.

If it's a question of where the burden of proof lies, then those that think that Tolkien was in error have quite a chore cut out for them, in my mind!

[Mormegil]

I have a possible theory. It uses the Dwarves greed as the main solution.
OK, here goes.
1. Dain sees the Balrog and recognises it from descriptions he has heard about Balrogs.
2. The heroic tales of the First Age are known to the free peoples of ME. Especially about Gondolin and the fall of both Ecthelion and Glorfindel who killed Balrogs.
3. Dain figures that seeing how a whole Dwarf city was wiped out by the Balrog, it is obvious that Dwarves are no match for a Balrog.
4. But he knows that it is possible, a powerful Elf (Glorfindel, Elrond, Thranduil, Celeborn etc.) could walk into Moria and despatch the Balrog.
5. Dain obviously wouldn't want Moria to fall into the hands of Elves.
Remember how greedy for gold and gems Thranduil is from the Hobbit?
Dain decides that if the Dwarves can't have Moria, then no-one can.
6. Dain refuses to positively identify the Balrog to anyone and lets them think that there is something far more sinister in Moria. Therefore the Elves can't get their greedy little hands on all the mithril in Moria.


OK, maybe it's a bit of a weird theory, but it would explain why Dain never told anyone enough about the Balrog for a positive ID.

[Snaga]

I'll buy that... and I'll pick up my brain from the Watcher in the Water as I leave by the west gate!;)

Sorry but that's quite funny.

Anyway, someone said Dain would have a good description, and would tell all cos he was a whinging dwarf. Someone show me some evidence and I will believe in the locquacious complaining of Mr Ironfoot, otherwise I'm happy.

[Harad]

Mormegil's theory makes sense....EXCEPT...

Why doesnt Dain clue in Balin? And Gloin, 25 years after Balin went belly up?

Further, Dain was quite reasonable as far as Dwarfs go--compare with Thorin.

Further further you have to be consistently consistent. If the Dwarfs were that greedy and secretive, why not have Glorfindel clear out Moria (he wasnt doing anything, anyway). Then when its safe, come in and claim the "ancient Dwarf Kingdom" and give Glorfindel an exterminating fee.

[Snaga]

OK, if you want a more detailed response to Mormegil's theory, it goes like this.

Originally posted by Mormegil
I have a possible theory. It uses the Dwarves greed as the main solution.
OK, here goes.
1. Dain sees the Balrog and recognises it from descriptions he has heard about Balrogs.
Maybe he's sees it. But who has he met who has described a Balrog to him? Possible I suppose, but not certain.
Originally posted by Mormegil
2. The heroic tales of the First Age are known to the free peoples of ME. Especially about Gondolin and the fall of both Ecthelion and Glorfindel who killed Balrogs.
Ah yes, they've all been reading the Silmarillion again. The stories from the end of the second age are shrouded myth and misinformation, those from the First Age are scarcely common currency.
Originally posted by Mormegil
3. Dain figures that seeing how a whole Dwarf city was wiped out by the Balrog, it is obvious that Dwarves are no match for a Balrog.
I grant you that its obvious that Dwarves are no match for Durin's Bane.
Originally posted by Mormegil
4. But he knows that it is possible, a powerful Elf (Glorfindel, Elrond, Thranduil, Celeborn etc.) could walk into Moria and despatch the Balrog.
Ah yes of course. As the powerful elves frequently went off to liberate dwarf-kingdoms... I really can't see that this is big concern. Why would the elves want Moria?
Originally posted by Mormegil
5. Dain obviously wouldn't want Moria to fall into the hands of Elves.
Remember how greedy for gold and gems Thranduil is from the Hobbit?
Dain decides that if the Dwarves can't have Moria, then no-one can.
Thranduil's greed is not really greed at all. He is concerned for his friends in Lake Town. In any case, there is no great wealth lying around in Moria. Gloin and Gimli say as much: Balin is hoping to mine mithril. Glorfindel the miner? Somehow I doubt it?
Originally posted by Mormegil
6. Dain refuses to positively identify the Balrog to anyone and lets them think that there is something far more sinister in Moria. Therefore the Elves can't get their greedy little hands on all the mithril in Moria.
So exactly what is more sinister than a Balrog?? If anything saying nothing about the Balrog invites people to go and pay a visit. Which is exactly what Balin does.

I contend Dain can't have known specifically what Durin's Bane was, or detail nature of the threat posed, or Balin would have stayed at home.

[Harad]

Why dont you just come out and say in BOLD LETTERS that you chose to ignore:


Originally posted by Dain Ironfoot
Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'

[Landroval]

I can't believe that Dain actually saw the Balrog. He is outside the gates of Moria, right? He "looks" in and sees something - something that must be pretty close to the gates. If he indeed recognizes it as a Balrog - one of the most feared evils of ME - wouldn't he lose it : "A Balrog! A Balrog! Run away! Run away!" No, he tiredly returns to the other dwarves and pretty camly announces that he has seen an evil that will keep the Dwarves out of Moria for quite some time yet.

Wasn't he worried that this evil thing might come through the gates and get them all? They spend the rest of the day cleaning up after the battle, burning bodies, etc. I, for one, would have high-tailed it out of there pronto.

Therefore, I can only conclude that Dain only got a glimpse of some vague evil and did not actually see the Balrog - or he did not recognize what he saw.

[Harad]

Dain doesnt recognize nor overly fear "the Evil."

Yet he concludes:


The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

I feel like I have gone thru the lookingglass...Wait that's another story...

More Dain:


Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.

[Snaga]

I am well aware of that quote and do not ignore it, but rather interpret it differently.

He sees something, and it is big and scary. 2+2=4. Moria + Big scary thing = Durin's Bane.

But what convinces you that he knows its a Balrog?

[Landroval]

Yes, he was full of fear. Yes, he believes he may have seen Durin's Bane. But if he really felt he saw a Balrog standing just inside the gates, wouldn't he be a little more inclined to warn the others? To run away? To attack? Something other than his calm reaction. It just doesn't "ring true" to me that he saw and recognized a Balrog.

In fact, I find it hard to accept that he really believed that he saw Durin's Bane for the same reasons. Something scared him, he couldn't make it out, knew the legend of Durin's Bane and made some assumptions.

And yes, if he had convinced himself that it was Durin's Bane, then he would believe that it was too much for his people and that the world would have to change before they could inhabit Moria.

"a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it". Isn't it possible that Dain only felt the terror emitted by the Balrog and assumed it was Durin's Bain without ever seeing anything?

[Harad]

Its like the Oliphaunt joke: Its got tusks like an O, its got a trunk like an O, its got 4 flat feet, big floppy ears, it smells like an O, and trumpets like an O--what is it? A Balrog, of course.

Dwarfs are not complete morons (are they). They never forget (like Oliphaunts). Balrogs are one of the Prime Bad Guys of that plane of Existence. To think that Dwarfs did not know Balrogs is pushing it.



Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.

'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff.

You say potato, I say Balrog. Gimli knew what it was! Gandalf knew what it was! 2+2 = 5.


In fact, I find it hard to accept that he really believed that he saw Durin's Bane for the same reasons. Something scared him, he couldn't make it out, knew the legend of Durin's Bane and made some assumptions.

Sorry but this is self-contradictory. He didnt believe he saw it, YET, he made assumptions as if he did.

For a Dwarf to say "The World must change" (Not "The World has Changed" -Treebeard book, Blanchett movie), means to me that he had had a deeply religious experience.

[Landroval]

Gimli's recognition of Durin's Bane does not mean that he recognized it as a Balrog.

Big Scary Monster = Durin's Bane - yes

Big Scary Monster = Balrog - maybe, to one of the wise with much more experience that Gimli, son of Gloin (e.g. Gandalf)

Remember, it has been a LONG TIME since the last ME encounter with Balrogs. Memories fade, oral histories blur. Legolas recognizes it because it is possible that he or his father actually saw one once. But a living Dwarf? I would think that either ALL the Dwarves would know that Durin's Bane was a Balrog (pretty big event in their history) or none does. And if the Dwarves knew, then Gandalf certainly would too and he clearly does not until he sees it.

[Harad]

Ah, but if ME is full of big scary monters then:

BSM = Durin's Bane is not a slam dunk.

To explain this "mass ignorance" one has to invoke Dain's bad eyesight or forgetfulness, Dain's secretiveness to the detriment of his own people, and the marked indifference of all the other free peoples of ME to what happened in Moria.

If thats what most of you want, who am I to disagree?

[Landroval]

Dain's bad eysight or forgetfulness?

..."a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it".

"What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow"...

The Balrog emits fear and terror. It wraps itself in shadow. Isn't it possible that Dain only felt the terror emitted by the Balrog standing just inside the gates and assumed it was Durin's Bain without ever seeing anything to recognize?

BTW, BSM in Moria = Durin's Bane is not too far a stretch.

[Tar-Palantir]

I can't prove or disprove whether Dain would have known that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. My point has always been that by Dain's (or, the Dwarves that escaped the sack of Moria in TA 1980) description - you know, "24 feet tall, wreathed in smoke and shadow, wielding fire", that sort of thing - someone would have known. Gandalf, Elrond, Celeborn, Thranduil, etc....

[Landroval]

"someone would have known. Gandalf, Elrond, Celeborn, Thranduil, etc...."

Yes, and if any of them had known, Gandalf would too. And clearly he did not until he saw it.

[Harad]

And clearly he did not until he saw it.

That is not a news flash.

The question, or the "point" as many Wise posters have asked, is WHY DIDNT GANDALF KNOW?

1. He was a moron, as were all the others who should have cared enuf to debrief Dain Ironfoot, in the intervening 200 years
2. He and the others didnt want to know

[Eonwe]

I have to agree that its hard to believe, the way the book was written, that no-one ever really found out enough info or suspected:

1) DB was in Moria for a while, I think years, before the dwarves left. I can't remember the timing, it kept killing the dwarf king. Its in the RotK appendix. So you have to assume that hundreds of dwarves saw the dang thing at some point, and not one of them returned with a description like: "it had a whip", "it had a flaming mane", "terror and darkness proceeded it", "it had a flaming sword", etc. I mean those descriptions alone would give at least any elf a clue.

2) I agree that Gandalf shows complete suprise. But I don't think that means that the topic never came up (nudge nudge say no more a nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat).

3) Its fine to say Dain never saw it, didn't know what it was, didn't see enough to give a good description to someone else. But he knew it was still there, and even after killing Azog he is completely "wet my pants" over noticing it is still there in Moria. A scant 200 or so years before Gandalf goes through again.

So can we at least say, they knew something horrible was likely still there? Like something bad enough to kill and drive out hundreds or thousands of dwarves? Something that perhaps Aragorn saw too when he went through Moria?

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Originally posted by Harad
Its like the Oliphaunt joke: Its got tusks like an O, its got a trunk like an O, its got 4 flat feet, big floppy ears, it smells like an O, and trumpets like an O--what is it? A Balrog, of course.


Interesting that you should mention the old joke, because the point of that joke is, everybody perceives things differently based on their experience. The blind men all described the elephant differently: the leg-feeler thought it was like a tree, the trunk-feeler thought it was like a snake, and so on.

In the subsequent quote, you make the case perfectly. Gimli see the Balrog and says, "Durin's Bane". Note that he did not shout "A Balrog!" He perceived the critter through dwarf-blind eyes.

Gandalf sees the same thing and calls it a Balrog. Not "the Balrog", mind you, as in "the Balrog of Moria that we all knew was down here somewhere". Your quote identifies the very moment when the equation Durin's Bane = Balrog was made.

So what is your question? Why didn't the dwarves know it was a Balrog? I dunno, but apparently they didn't. Why didn't they describe it to someone who might know what it was? I dunno, but apparently they didn't. Why didn't others among the Wise who had heard the story of Durin recognize the antagonist as a Balrog? I dunno, but apparently they didn't. Any attempt to answer in more detail is likely to be mere speculation, and yours is as good as mine.

If your point is, "Well, they should have figured it out," then I agree with you. But (sigh), apparently they didn't. Or if they did, it was somebody besides Gandalf, and they didn't bother to mention it to him.

[Landroval]

Yes, I agree that they all knew that "something" was there - that's what kept the Dwarves away for so long. I don't think that Gandalf nor Aragorn actually saw it on their previous trips through, as either one would recognize it.

And, yes, it is a mystery why surviving Dwarves would not have seen enough to describe it sufficiently for others to recognize even if they themselves did not. Plot hole, anyone?

And, yes Harad, I do realize what the "point" is, even though I may not be "Wise". Gandalf does not know about the Balrog, but should if the Dwarves did. My conclusion is that the Dwarves did not put the name Balrog on Durin's Bane and apparently did not describe it well enough for others to do so.

[Landroval]

Well put, Donnie B. That about sums it up (and, I guess, wraps it up too.)

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Originally posted by Landroval
Well put, Donnie B. That about sums it up (and, I guess, wraps it up too.)

Don't count on that... in my short experience here, I've noticed that Harad always gets in the last word. :p

[Harad]

My point! Ray! My point!

Here is an instance where the communications between the allies and research among the Wise fell a bit short. Okay, real short.

Yes its a mundane point, almost criminally so. But what the hay! It beats oliphaunt jokes. Now back to "Could Gollum beat Ghan Bari Ghan in a Spelling Bee?"

[Snaga]

So... you weren't arguing the Gandalf the Schemer conspiracy theory?? Goroshimura shame on you, for sowing needless discord.:rolleyes:

[Bucky]

I don't get 'what gibberish'..... by VoK on page 3.

Goroshimura's post on that page is EXACTLY what I was saying before that.

I thought the original questions were basically Why didn't they know a Balrog was in Moria.

Along the way, many miscomceptions were posted, which I corrected on page 2, I believe.

The proof I presented on page 3 that Gandalf had no idea it was a Balrog until he saw it is irrefutable as it comes from TFOR verbatim.

I can't wait to read the rest of the absurd thread rebuttle's later when I have time (I quit after Goshi's post)....

[Harad]

The proof I presented on page 3 that Gandalf had no idea it was a Balrog until he saw it is irrefutable as it comes from TFOR verbatim.

Proof? Then 1 hand clapping is a round of applause. Thats the "proof" that was also labeled a "news flash." No one was arguing that Gandalf knew. It must be satisfying to "prove" a point that is not in dispute. Still dont expect the Genius of the Week Award.

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Harad
Mormegil's theory makes sense....EXCEPT...

Why doesnt Dain clue in Balin? And Gloin, 25 years after Balin went belly up?
Maybe Dain wanted to see if the Balrog had gone. Maybe both Balin and Gloin were expendable. Who knows the inner workings of Dain Ironfoot's mind? Perhaps Dain wanted to find out if at long last a Dwarf could despatch a Balrog.

Originally posted by Harad
Further, Dain was quite reasonable as far as Dwarfs go--compare with Thorin.
Is this the same Dain Ironfoot who led an army (originally) against Thranduil, the Elvenking?? I feel sure that Dain was as greedy as other Dwarves such as Thorin.

Originally posted by Harad
Further further you have to be consistently consistent. If the Dwarfs were that greedy and secretive, why not have Glorfindel clear out Moria (he wasnt doing anything, anyway). Then when its safe, come in and claim the "ancient Dwarf Kingdom" and give Glorfindel an exterminating fee.
I don't think that the heavenly Glorfindel can be bought. Also, given Dain's experience of gold-hungry Elves (Thranduil), I don't think he would have either trusted or hired an Elf to clear out Moria for him.

[Harad]

This Dain-bashing has got to stop!


"Some are in the hunt," said the wizard, "but most have gone back to their eyries. They would not stay here, and departed with the first light of morning. Dain has crowned their chief with gold, and sworn friendship with them for ever."


The others remained with Dain; for Dain dealt his treasure well.


Yet a fourteenth share of all the silver and gold, wrought and unwrought, was given up to Bard; for Dain said: "We will honour the agreement of the dead, and he has now the Arkenstone in his keeping."


But Dáin Ironfoot, his cousin, who came from the Iron Hills to his aid and was also his rightful heir, became then King Dáin II, and the Kingdom under the Mountain was restored, even as Gandalf had desired. Dáin proved a great and wise king, and the Dwarves prospered and grew strong again in his day.


'and now we hear that Dáin has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here. I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
OK, if you want a more detailed response to Mormegil's theory, it goes like this.


So exactly what is more sinister than a Balrog?? If anything saying nothing about the Balrog invites people to go and pay a visit. Which is exactly what Balin does.

I contend Dain can't have known specifically what Durin's Bane was, or detail nature of the threat posed, or Balin would have stayed at home.


Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Maybe he's sees it. But who has he met who has described a Balrog to him? Possible I suppose, but not certain.

First of all VofK, I said it was a theory. In this particular theory Dain sees the Balrog.
Secondly, the description of a Balrog musyt be well known a,mongst the free peoples of ME. There are songs and tales of the First Age which are well known in the Third Age.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mormegil
2. The heroic tales of the First Age are known to the free peoples of ME. Especially about Gondolin and the fall of both Ecthelion and Glorfindel who killed Balrogs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah yes, they've all been reading the Silmarillion again. The stories from the end of the second age are shrouded myth and misinformation, those from the First Age are scarcely common currency.
They don't have to read the Silmarillion. There must surely be Elves in the Grey Havens, Rivendell, Mirkwood and Lothlorien who were around in the First Age, who both remember and were witness to the tales of the fall of Feanor and the fall of Gondolin. Such people would be Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Cirdan, and the reincarnated Glorfindel. Also the tales of the First Age were told in song throughout the Third Age by the free peoples of ME. It is presumable that they would have heard of Glorfindel and Ecthelion fighting the Balrogs.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I grant you that its obvious that Dwarves are no match for Durin's Bane.
Thankyou. I knew I made sense at one point.
:)

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Ah yes of course. As the powerful elves frequently went off to liberate dwarf-kingdoms... I really can't see that this is big concern. Why would the elves want Moria?
I did not say that Elves "frequently went off to liberate Dwarf-kingdoms". I was merely stating that it would be possible for an Elf such as Elrond, Glorfindel, Thranduil or Celeborn to enter Moria and kill the Balrog.
Dain's experience of Elves is that they are greedy folk, such as Thranduil, that will try to steal his family's treasure away from him.
As for "Why would the elves want Moria?". It is the only known source of mithril in ME. Also it would be valued as a tactical position against Sauron.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Thranduil's greed is not really greed at all. He is concerned for his friends in Lake Town. In any case, there is no great wealth lying around in Moria. Gloin and Gimli say as much: Balin is hoping to mine mithril. Glorfindel the miner? Somehow I doubt it?
From Dain's point of view Thranduil is greedy. He wanted to take the Arkenstone, and wanted a share of the treasure from the lonely mountain. Remember that this theory relies on Dain's point of view. Thranduil isn't exactly trustworthy in Dain's point of view, is he?

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
So exactly what is more sinister than a Balrog?? If anything saying nothing about the Balrog invites people to go and pay a visit. Which is exactly what Balin does.

I contend Dain can't have known specifically what Durin's Bane was, or detail nature of the threat posed, or Balin would have stayed at home
There are plenty more things more sinister than a Balrog. Just listen to Gandalf. He will speek of the Balrog, but will not speak of the far worse things that he saw whilst battling the Balrog.
Making people think that there is something worse than a Balrog in Moria would make ebven great Elf-lords, capable of defeating a Balrog, scared to enter.
As I have mentioned before, maybe Dain saw Balin as expendable.
Dain couldn't have made Balin stay at home. Balin was a higjhly respected Dwarf. A member of the royal family, and wealthy in his own right. Dain did not give Balin leave willingly, but IMO he could do nothing to stop him.


Hey, it's only a theory folks. It's a way of explaining this mystery without saying that Tolkien made a few mistakes in the writing of his masterpiece.

[Mormegil]

Harad,
I do agree with you that Dain was a great king of Dwarves. Your quotes show him as a loyal friend to both the Eagles and to the Men of Laketown.
However, my theory relies on him being mistrusting of the greedy Elves. Which you show no evidence of him being friendly with. IMO Dain was mistrustful of Elves, stemming from Thranduil's appalling behaviour in the Hobbit.

[Bucky]

1) DB was in Moria for a while, I think years, before the dwarves left. I can't
remember the timing, it kept killing the dwarf king.

I believe the Balrog killed The King (Durin # something) in 1980 3rd Age, then his son Nain the following year, 1981.
Then the Dwarves booked out of Moria.
So, it could be anywhere from 2 days to 2 years.


Proof? Then 1 hand clapping is a round of applause. Thats the "proof" that
was also labeled a "news flash." No one was arguing that Gandalf knew.

Um, read your 4th post, Loremaster Harad:

>>>Wouldnt Gandalf know what it was based upon the descriptions

[Harad]

Sorry you cant understand my hyothetical posting. My argument was that Gandalf SHOULD have known based upon using reason on the historical facts. Of course, according to LOTR, he DIDNT know. Hence the point of the post. (I can't believe I am explaining this.)

Why dont you let it rest. You often have decent ideas. But I dont know what your getting at here.

[Snaga]

Mormegil,

Sorry about my cranky tone. I'm usually not as sarcastic as that.

However I AM often that argumentative!!:D Its no problem to post a theory, but a theory is there to be knocked down... So don't be surprised if some of us try!

They don't have to read the Silmarillion. There must surely be Elves in the Grey Havens, Rivendell, Mirkwood and Lothlorien who were around in the First Age, who both remember and were witness to the tales of the fall of Feanor and the fall of Gondolin. Such people would be Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Cirdan, and the reincarnated Glorfindel. Also the tales of the First Age were told in song throughout the Third Age by the free peoples of ME. It is presumable that they would have heard of Glorfindel and Ecthelion fighting the Balrogs. Some tales from the First Age were told by some people, of which some were really believed in. Remember all the misinformation about actually-existing elfdom Lorien: Eomer, Boromir and Gimli all thought it was a bad place. In Rohan they had stopped believing in Hobbits. In Gondor they didn't know Isildur had taken the Ring. In the North, many didn't know that Isildur has gone back to Minas Tirith after Sauron's downfall. These are just a few examples of the lack of widespread clear and accurate knowledge of the past - far more recent past than the death of Feanor or the fall of Gondolin. I'm not disputing that some knew of Balrogs enough to ID one (Legolas and Gandalf did); but we can as easily believe that Dain didn't know of them, as believe that he did.

Remember that this theory relies on Dain's point of view. Thranduil isn't exactly trustworthy in Dain's point of view, is he? Well if he doesn't trust him, does he believe his wild tales from the First Age, or even talk to him enough to listen? In any case, there's mistrust, and then there's complete misunderstanding of motivations. I really can't take seriously the suggestion that Dain worries about an Elven take-over of Moria, by Thranduil or anyone else. Especially if Durin's Bane is in the way.

There are plenty more things more sinister than a Balrog. Just listen to Gandalf. He will speek of the Balrog, but will not speak of the far worse things that he saw whilst battling the Balrog.
Making people think that there is something worse than a Balrog in Moria would make ebven great Elf-lords, capable of defeating a Balrog, scared to enter. I don't think Gandalf said those 'nameless things' were worse than the Balrog. A Balrog is an evil Maia: thats pretty damn bad. To make the threat seem worse than a Balrog he'd have to be going around saying: 'So you think a Balrog's bad, well check this'... Lets face it, a Balrog is off-putting enough for anyone. If someone doesn't say what the threat is, you don't instantly assume its going to be worse than one of the worst evils ever to roam Middle Earth. To say that by not naming it a Balrog he thinks everyone's going to think 'OMG, Dain won't say what it was. I thought it was just one of those puny Balrogs that noone has seen or heard of since the First Age, but it must be WAY WAY scarier than that' is a bit of stretch don't you think?

As I have mentioned before, maybe Dain saw Balin as expendable.
Dain couldn't have made Balin stay at home. Balin was a higjhly respected Dwarf. A member of the royal family, and wealthy in his own right. Dain did not give Balin leave willingly, but IMO he could do nothing to stop him. I agree with the Dain couldn't stop Balin part. But Balin wasn't some kind of suicidal maniac. If there was a well-documented and specific threat surely Shirley Dain would have told him? In this scenario, he doesn't just need to think Balin expendable, but actually wants him and his companions to get butchered. The dwarves can be greedy and stubborn, but I see no sign that they send each other to their deaths in this way.

Its only a theory, but not one I'm signing up to. The alternative that Dain warned Balin, but couldn't tell him enough to convince him of the threat sounds more plausible to me. Hey, but that's just me.:)

[Harad]

I'm not disputing that some knew of Balrogs enough to ID one (Legolas and Gandalf did); but we can as easily believe that Dain didn't know of them, as believe that he did.

My problem with Dain not knowing or not wanting to know, is that Dain was not an ignorant, parochial type. He was a King of Dwarves and well-integrated into the North of Middle Earth. He certainly had much converse with Men at Dale, and swore friendship with the Eagles, and was on good terms with Elrond. What his relationship with Thranduil was, I don't know. But Thranduil was less important vis a vis knowledge of the First Age than Elrond and the Rivendell Elves.

As Tar-Pal pointed out:

1980: The Witch-king comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgûl. A Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI.

This was more than 1000!!! years before the events in LOTR. (800 years before Dain sees Durin's Bane.) It just strains credulity that not one dwarf from the companions of Durin VI up to and including Dain Ironfoot could either put a name on Durin's Bane or describe it to someone who could. Or furthermore, that not one non-dwarf did any investigative work to themselves determine what Durin's Bane was.

The fact that Durin's Bane stayed put in Moria for at least 800 years, together with the "mysterious" 25-year silence of Balin, also calls into question the "surprise" on the Fellowship's part when, who should appear but Durin's Bane. Of course the book says they were surprised, but why?

The title of the thread is kind, since it allows for the possibilty of "Whistling Past the Graveyard." For 1000 years the assorted peoples of ME did so. Its possible. Look, in more recent times, at the 1970s decade of Disco.

[Elanor2]

Did gandalf know that Durin's Bane = Balrog?

If he did know, why is he surprised and says: "A Balrog...Now I understand..."?

Gandalf sentence is too short to give us a clear idea what was in his mind. It can be interpreted as:
"A Balrog... That's Durin's Bane... Now I understand... That's what happened and it's still happening in Moria".
or
"A Balrog... That's what I perceived through the door... Now I understand... the Balrog is still here and killed Balin's people".

Harad has a point here. For 800 years nobody has seen the Balrog. There is no way that Gandalf, Celeborn or any of the wise could have known that the Balrog was still in Moria. He might have left secretly at any time and gone in search of his real master Melkor. Or just found another secret place to wait for Melkor's return. Or gone in search of Sauron and offered his services, and it is now hidden in Mordor waiting to be used as a surprise weapon. Many possibilities.

Dain sees something in Moria 200 years earlier, but does not say it is a Balrog. Perhaps he only perceived something evil there and inmediately associated it with Durin's Bane. I find very significant that the dwarves did not flee, but took time to burn their dead. It looks like, in their minds, Durin's Bane is attached to Moria so much that they consider that it is no danger, except if you enter Moria. Like if Durin's Bane has reached the realm of legend.

Moria, is not completely abandoned. People use it somethimes as a passageway (Gandalf, Aragorn...). The only risks seem to be the orcs, not any Balrog: Even if Aragorn felt great evil in there, well, many evil things have happened to give Moria a haunted aura anyway. But not enough to give anyone the certitude that a Balrog is still lurking there.

Gandalf's suprise is not, for me, the final clue that indicates that nobody knew that Durin's Bane = Balrog. We need more clues.

[Mormegil]

VofK,

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Mormegil,

Sorry about my cranky tone. I'm usually not as sarcastic as that.

However I AM often that argumentative!!:D Its no problem to post a theory, but a theory is there to be knocked down... So don't be surprised if some of us try!
You were very sarcastic. I am also argumentative.
I have no problem with you challenging my ideas. There is no clear cut answer to this mystery or else we wouldn't be discussing it.


Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I really can't take seriously the suggestion that Dain worries about an Elven take-over of Moria, by Thranduil or anyone else.

Why not? Thranduil led an army to Erebor in the hope of claiming the Smaug's hoarde. I'm pretty sure that Dain thinks that Thranduil would be capable of lusting after the only Mithril mine in ME.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I don't think Gandalf said those 'nameless things' were worse than the Balrog. A Balrog is an evil Maia: thats pretty damn bad. To make the threat seem worse than a Balrog he'd have to be going around saying: 'So you think a Balrog's bad, well check this'... Lets face it, a Balrog is off-putting enough for anyone. If someone doesn't say what the threat is, you don't instantly assume its going to be worse than one of the worst evils ever to roam Middle Earth. To say that by not naming it a Balrog he thinks everyone's going to think 'OMG, Dain won't say what it was. I thought it was just one of those puny Balrogs that noone has seen or heard of since the First Age, but it must be WAY WAY scarier than that' is a bit of stretch don't you think?
I have one word for you.......Ungolient.
One of the most ferocious and petrifying creatures ever to enter Arda. It took a group of Balrogs to free Morgoth from her wrath.
Ungolient is much scarier than a Balrog. What's to say that the unknown thing in Moria isn't a creature like Ungolient.

To use your quote.
Imagine Morgoth saying,'So you think a Balrog's bad, well check this'... before Ungolient steps foreward.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Elanor2
Did gandalf know that Durin's Bane = Balrog?

If he did know, why is he surprised and says: "A Balrog...Now I understand..."?

Gandalf sentence is too short to give us a clear idea what was in his mind. It can be interpreted as:
"A Balrog... That's Durin's Bane... Now I understand... That's what happened and it's still happening in Moria".
or
"A Balrog... That's what I perceived through the door... Now I understand... the Balrog is still here and killed Balin's people".

Harad has a point here. For 800 years nobody has seen the Balrog. There is no way that Gandalf, Celeborn or any of the wise could have known that the Balrog was still in Moria. He might have left secretly at any time and gone in search of his real master Melkor. Or just found another secret place to wait for Melkor's return. Or gone in search of Sauron and offered his services, and it is now hidden in Mordor waiting to be used as a surprise weapon. Many possibilities.

Moria, is not completely abandoned. People use it somethimes as a passageway (Gandalf, Aragorn...). The only risks seem to be the orcs, not any Balrog: Even if Aragorn felt great evil in there, well, many evil things have happened to give Moria a haunted aura anyway. But not enough to give anyone the certitude that a Balrog is still lurking there.

Gandalf's suprise is not, for me, the final clue that indicates that nobody knew that Durin's Bane = Balrog. We need more clues.

I agree, Elanor2. Also, Gandalf's comment about being challenged through the door by something he's never felt before doesn't mean he couldn't have known that a Balrog had ever been in Moria. He's never gone head-to-head with one, so how could he be sure what a Balrog's spells would feel like?

[Greenwood]

From The Letters of JRR Tolkien, in a letter to Naomi Mitchison (letter 144) who had been reading page proofs of FOTR, in reference to the Balrog, Tolkien writes: "The Balrog is a survivor from The Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. .... They were supposed to have all been destroyed in the overthrow of Thanggorodrim, ..... It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is -- and doubtless Gandalf." The elf referred to is clearly Legolas. So here you have Tolkien essentially stating that Gimli, though he identifies the creature as "Durin's Bane" does not know what it truly is, only Legolas and Gandalf recognize it as a Balrog. Therefore in Tolkien's conception of the story the dwarves either never reported Durin's Bane with enough detail to identify it as a Balrog, or if they did the identification was never passed back to the dwarves (or certainly not to Gimli). Is the argument now that the elves and Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, but never told the dwarves? Why would they not tell the dwarves? If Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was in reality a Balrog, wouldn't he on hearing about Balin's attempt to reopen Moria say something along the lines of: "Are you crazy! There is a Balrog in there! Let sleeping Balrogs lie!" (The same could be said for Elrond if he knew the identity of Durin's Bane. Perhaps even a "This is a job for Glorfindel! :) )

As for the argument that Balrogs were known from tales of the earlier ages, Aragorn, who Gandalf calls the greatest traveller of his Age (if I remember correctly) also does not recognize the creature they are confronted with as a Balrog. In addition to Tolkien's statement above, we have in FOTR when the Fellowship first meet Celeborn and Galadriel in Lothlorien and report Gandalf's fall, Aragorn says: "An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before. It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible." Not only has Aragorn not seen a Balrog before, but he clearly did not know what it was other than guessing it was an ancient evil. It is Legolas who identifies it to Celeborn and Galadriel: " 'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas". Also, if Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, wouldn't he have clued in Aragorn? Thus all the evidence (both internal in the story and Tolkien's own statement) is that it was not known that Durin's Bane was a Balrog.

As to the argument that Gandalf and the wise should have guessed that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, why should they? All the Balrogs were thought to be destroyed ages ago ( :) ). If reports came in from the American West about slaughtered cattle, I don't think anyone would consider Tyrannosaurus rex as a possible culprit, no matter what any eyewitnesses might describe.

[Tar-Palantir]

Greenwood:
Okay, so both Gandalf & Legolas know a Balrog on sight (or feel). How? Neither has ever seen one before. They know it because of desciptions they've heard in the past. I find it hard to believe that, when he heard the story of what happened in Moria in TA 1980, that Gandalf didn't say to himself "hmmm.....walks like a duck, talks like a duck, kills like a duck....". I can only imagine that after the Balrog goes nuts in Moria that there was incredible destruction and, since there were no further incidences with the Balrog, that the Wise thought it was "imprisoned" again....or left. And, Gandalf went through Moria himself and saw no evidence.

As for Aragorn not knowing it was a Balrog before Lorien, that's not true. Both Legolas and Gandalf mentioned it by name in Moria.

[Greenwood]

As for Aragorn not knowing it was a Balrog before Lorien, that's not true. Both Legolas and Gandalf mentioned it by name in Moria.

I did not say Aragorn did not know it was a Balrog until Lothlorien. Aragorn is reporting the events that took place in Moria and is clearly saying that when he saw the creature he did not know what it was at that time. I of course assume Aragorn heard Legolas and Gandalf identify the Balrog.

I find it hard to believe that, when he heard the story of what happened in Moria in TA 1980, that Gandalf didn't say to himself "hmmm.....walks like a duck, talks like a duck, kills like a duck....". I can only imagine that after the Balrog goes nuts in Moria that there was incredible destruction and, since there were no further incidences with the Balrog, that the Wise thought it was "imprisoned" again....or left.

You may find it hard to believe, but that is the way Tolkien wrote it. As for the Durin's Bane/Balrog having left Moria, is it likely that something so terrible that it could drive off the dwarves from their beloved city would be able to slip off quietly in the night without anyone in ME knowing about it. Yes, Gandalf and the wise could have thought Durin's Bane (whatever it was) could have gone back to sleep under the mountains, but it is unlikely that it had left Moria. The Watcher in the Water seems to have been an unknown terror, unknown even to Gandalf. This shows that not all terrors were known even to the wise. Durin's Bane could have been thought to be another of these unknown monsters.

[aragil]

TP- Well, if there were only 3-7 Balrogs ever, and two were accounted for by Ecthelion and Glorfindel during the fall of Gondolin, why would anybody expect a Balrog to have escaped the fall of Thangorodrim? It was ~1100 years into the Second Age before anyone realized that Sauron was growing in power, and it was nearly ~1700 years after the rise of the Necromancer that Gandalf found out that the Necromancer was actually Sauron. I guess that without the books it becomes much more difficult to identify the bad guys, no matter how many times you've heard the 'Lay of Luthien' or the 'Fall of Gondolin.' Point in fact- Aragorn has memorized the Lay of Luthien, and spent a large amount of time in Elrond's house at Rivendell where he has presumably heard of Papa Earendil's escape from Gondolin. He has heard of a Balrog, he does not recognize it when he sees it, and even after hearing the name from Legolas he still resorts to talking about it in descriptive terms rather than using its proper name. If Aragorn in all his learning doesn't seem to have a keen grasp on what it was, why should the Dwarves do any better. Balrogs seemed mainly concerned with killing Elves- Fingon, Feanor, and the Elves of Gondolin. They don't seem to be active against the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum had nothing to do with Beleriand. In fact, the elves of Lorien didn't even have a clue about what had been awoken, as evidenced by Celeborn's words after Legolas names the Balrog. Given that Sauron himself was able to operate incognito for thousands of years, why do people have such a problem with the Balrog also being unknown beyond the name of 'Durin's Bane'.

Why would Legolas recognize a Balrog on sight? Well, Thranduil was a Sindar of Beleriand first off. All of the elves of Beleriand were reasonably familiar with Balrogs, as Balrogs were more active during the first age, sort of the Black Riders of their day. At some point during his 3000 years of parentage Thranduil must have described it to his son. And Elves are unusually perceptive in these matters, more so than say men, dwarves or hobbits. As for Gandalf, he doesn't seem to recognize it until Legolas gives out the word. He is probably familiar with the concept of a Balrog- they are after all kindred spirits, beings who have existed longer than the earth itself.

[Harad]

Aragorn grew up in Rivendell. The World's Foremost Authority on Balrog's just happened to live there. Werent there any rousing get togethers around the fireplace swapping tales about what it was like to live and die in Gondolin?

No one seems to grasp that in the Third Age the destruction of the Dwarf City in Khazad-Dum must have been Big News. Wouldnt any of the non-Dwarf "guardians" of that Age be in the least bit interested to get to the bottom of HOW such a thing could happen? 800 years pass and the same "Durin's Bane" is identified again in the same place. Isn't it time to pay attention? 200 years pass and Balin goes missing. Three strikes and youre out...of excuses.

[Tar-Palantir]

You're Gandalf. The greatest Dwarf city in the world gets wiped out by....something. The Dwarves don't know what kind of creature it is, but you can be sure they know it looked like, fought like, etc...The description you hear sounds like a Balrog. Sure, it could be some "nameless thing", but it sounds like a Balrog . What are you gonna think? Even if you're not sold on Balrog, it's obviously something powerful. If you don't at least consider the possibility of a Balrog.....well, why wouldn't you?

Greenwood, I happen to agree with you that a Balrog could not have left Moria without anyone knowing (excluding the prescence of a cloaking device). My point is that it's (to me) more in Gandalf's spirit and character (along with the rest of the Wise and Eldar) that they should have equated Durin's Bane with the Balrog.

Anyway, I apologize for beating a dead Balrog :) I'm truly not trying to be argumentative, just trying to find a way to justify something that doesn't make sense.

[aragil]

The only way this doesn't make sense is if you apply your outside knowledge to the World that Tolkien created. In Tolkien's world Sauron was twice able to go incognito for thousands of years without 'the wise' figuring out who he was. In Tolkien's world 'the wise' also don't know what Durin's Bane is. This becomes especially confounding when you take Harad's view that Durin's Bane went around leaving little calling cards (You've just been whipped by the Balrog of Moria. Have a nice day) on each dwarven corpse. But whether or not it's confusing to us doesn't matter. In Tolkien's world people didn't know the identity of Durin's Bane or the Necromancer until Gandalf stuck his bristly brows into places to check it out. If you're angry about this aspect of Tolkien's world, then call up Dionne W. and give Tolkien an earful.

[Harad]

There's a logical disconnect here.

WE ALL AGREE THAT IN THE STORY NO ONE KNEW IT WAS A BALROG. THATS A GIVEN.

The discussion, feeble as it is, concentrates on "does it make sense" that no one knew?

And who in Eru's name is Dionne W?

[Greenwood]

The description you hear sounds like a Balrog. Sure, it could be some "nameless thing", but it sounds like a Balrog .

But you don't know that the dwarves ever gave anyone a description of Durin's Bane. You don't even know if any dwarve who had a "up close and personal" encounter with Durin's Bane (at least close enough for a description) ever survived the encounter. If whole sections of Moria were being wiped out and a shadow of fear spread in front of Durin's Bane, I can see the dwarves that are left "bugging out" without insisting on actually getting a look at whatever is responsible. Perhaps the only descriptions were vague; enough for Dain to connect a shadowy terror inside the gates of Moria with Durin's Bane, but not enough for the Wise to identify it. And as mentioned already, the Wise thought all Balrog's were gone ages before. Why would they think of one as a possibility? And as for the argument that none of the Wise showed any interest in identifying Durin's Bane, how do we know they didn't? Gandalf says he has been in Moria before, but doesn't say why. Perhaps it was to investigate the identity of Durin's Bane just as he entered Dol Guldur to identify the Necromancer as Sauron. Unlike his investigation of Dol Guldur, his foray into Moria did not lead to an identification. Perhaps his report to Elrond and company was: "No sign of Durin's Bane, whatever it was. Let's hope it has gone to sleep again under the mountains." As for Balin's twenty-five year silence, there are certainly enough orcs around to account for it without invoking the return of Durin's Bane as a necessity to explain it. I don't have my copy of FOTR handy, but I don't remember the record book of Balin's company in Moria mentioning Durin's Bane, just orcs.

[Later edit: I see Aragil and Harad were busy while I was typing. Lots of us have given reasons why the story as Tolkien wrote it makes sense internally.]

[Eonwe]

Bitter that I am, I am reminded of a thread that was related to this, that generated a few hundred posts in 48 hours, that dealt with what I think is the more important question:

Even if he didn't know it was a Balrog, he still knew it was something really nasty, Aragorn warns him against it personally, and yet he still leads the Fellowship through with the One Ring.

Why?

But the thread was deleted.

I'm so bitter and I can't let go.

aragil-san:

"If Aragorn in all his learning doesn't seem to have a keen grasp on what it was, why should the Dwarves do any better."

Best reply to the question I've seen yet.

[Tar-Palantir]

Uncle!!!! Sheesh......I'm not entirely sold on the fact that no one knew that a Balrog had ever been in Moria, but let's let it go. It's either stubborness on my part (probably) or the whole world's crazy and I'm the only sane one (and no! we don't need to start a poll on that!)

I'm not angry with Tolkien.....and I have no desire to call Dionne (or Ms Cleo, for that matter) to ask him about it.

[Harad]

`I fear he had ill tidings to record in a fair hand,' said Gandalf. 'The first clear word is sorrow, but the rest of the line is lost, unless it ends in estre. Yes, it must be yestre followed by day being the tenth of novembre Balin lord of Moria fell in Dimrill Dale. He went alone to look in Mirror mere. an orc shot him from behind a stone. we slew the orc, hut many more ... up from east up the Silverlode. The remainder of the page is so blurred that I can hardly make anything out, but I think I can read we have barred the gates, and then can hold them long if, and then perhaps horrible and suffer. Poor Balin! He seems to have kept the title that he took for less than five years. I wonder what happened afterwards; but there is no time to puzzle out the last few pages. Here is the last page of all.' He paused and sighed.
`It is grim reading,' he said. 'I fear their end was cruel. Listen! We cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the Bridge and second hall. Frár and Lóni and Náli fell there. Then there are four lines smeared so that I can only read went 5 days ago. The last lines run the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin. We cannot get out. The end comes, and then drums, drums in the deep. I wonder what that means. The last thing written is in a trailing scrawl of elf-letters: they are coming. There is nothing more.' Gandalf paused and stood in silent thought.
A sudden dread and a horror of the chamber fell on the Company. `We cannot get out,' muttered Gimli. 'It was well for us that the pool had sunk a little, and that the Watcher was sleeping down at the southern end.'

There isnt much to go on, but the drums may have been associated with DB.

Aragorn may not have known anything about a Balrog but he was only in his 90s. The Dwarves had 1000 years to puzzle it out.

The Balrog was a distinctive creature. I dont believe it was easily mistaken for something else. To think that there were no surving Dwarf witness from an entire City strains credulity. Credulity is strained in my book, but others are welcome to keep whistling.

[Landroval]

Originally posted by Harad


The Balrog was a distinctive creature. I dont believe it was easily mistaken for something else. To think that there were no surving Dwarf witness from an entire City strains credulity. Credulity is strained in my book, but others are welcome to keep whistling.

Yes, Harad, this to me is the one big hole. Even assuming that the Dwarves did not recognize the Balrog to put a name on it, some survivor should have described it well enough to develop a lasting tale that would have been recognized by someone in the intervening years.

So JRRT is a fallible human after all... I'll get over it.
:)

[Harad]

Thanks Landroval,

I think its an entertaining book as well. That's why I am interested. The questions I and others raise are just brain tweasers: perhaps there are solutions I didnt think of, perhaps not. I read all the replying posts to see.

In either case I already had and continue to have enjoyment from the story. I am sorry if people feel threatened or personally attacked by the academic points that I raise. It is an interesting phenomenom, aint it? Maybe theres enuf for a masters thesis in internet posting psychology?

[Greenwood]

Even assuming that the Dwarves did not recognize the Balrog to put a name on it, some survivor should have described it well enough to develop a lasting tale that would have been recognized by someone in the intervening years.

You can say that "some survivor should have described it well enough to develop a lasting tale that would have been recognized by someone in the intervening years", but the evidence from the novel is that no one did.

There isnt much to go on, but the drums may have been associated with DB.

After Gandalf's first encounter with the Balrog at the shut door he is asked if he met the drummer and he says he doesn't know. We have no positive proof that the drums go with the Balrog. Unless there is a description out there of Balrogs as fiery, whip-wielding First Age Buddy Richs.

The Balrog was a distinctive creature. I dont believe it was easily mistaken for something else. To think that there were no surving Dwarf witness from an entire City strains credulity.

Clearly there are survivors from Moria. There is no evidence that any of those survivors had first hand encounters with Durin's Bane. Or perhaps the terror of it left them jibbering idiots unable to give a clear description. Trauma victims are notoriously bad witnesses.

[Harad]

but the evidence from the novel is that no one did.

My Novel:

There are 10 people in a small room. Another man walks in and vomits on the floor. The room is brightly lit, the 10 people are sighted, awake, and of average intelligence. None of the 10 people ever mention the incident for the rest of their lives.

End of My Novel.

Is there evidence that the "vomit" incident was observed? Does My Novel make sense?

[aragil]

Harad- Dionne W is Dionne Warwick, the only person I know of who could find out what Tolkien was thinking the Burning Enigma of Moria (DW would be a better authority than CT, in my opinion). Of all the posters on these boards I thought you'd be the first to catch a pop-culture ref. I'm so very disappointed.
Your novel does make sense internally. I can give plenty of reasons why your characters wouldn't ever mention it again- chiefly that it was so unpleasant that they didn't want to think of it. If, hundreds of years later someone was to jump into the middle of your room, they would be upset that someone had not warned them about what had previously transpired. However, if they knew that something bad had happened in there, so bad that the 10 had never spoken of it again, then we'd have to question the intelligence of the person jumping into the room, not the intelligence of the ten or of you for writing the incident.

Greenwood- I think of the Balrogs as more similar to Gene Kruppa.

[Bucky]

Harad:

My Novel:

If you bang your head against a brick wall enough times, will the wall finally collapse?

End of Novel?

Actually, it's more of a riddle......

Greenwood's been making lots of sense here (Aragil too), so there isn't much to add but this:

>>>He's (Gandalf) never gone head-to-head
with one, so how could he be sure what a Balrog's spells would feel like?

>>>Greenwood:
Okay, so both Gandalf & Legolas know a Balrog on sight (or feel). How?
Neither has ever seen one before. They know it because of desciptions
they've heard in the past.

1. Who says Legolas wasn't alive in the First Age in Beleriand?
Is there any proof at all to when he was born?
I seem to recall that we all just assume he's born after that from the 'Who's Older' thread....

2. Who says Gandalf never saw or met a Balrog before?
What about the countless battles between Melkor & the Valar before the Elves awoke?
Or, who says Olorin was not in The Host of the West that overthrew Morgoth at the end of the 1st Age?

[Harad]

If you had said Ms Clio I would have known. Who said I was infallible?

My Novel makes sense. I am not surprised. The first question however was:

Is there evidence that the "vomit" incident was observed?

Trying in my modest way to apply Greenwood reasoning, the answer is "no."

I would wonder, if in book 2 of My Novel, called "The Too Novel," someone wanted to enter The Room, why they wouldnt have asked one of The Ten, "what happened in that room?" before stepping in it.

[aragil]

Ms. Clio is only weird because of her commercials. Dionne has additional weirdness because she has jeapordized an established singing career with her psychic weirdness. This obviously makes her more qualified to get in touch with Tolkien's departed spirit, as all spirits are drawn to the weirdness of the living.
To extend your novel, let's imagine that the room in question is home to the world's only slip and slide. Now let's imagine that long after the vomit incident (but still before in janitorial effort) the prospective jumper speaks with one of the ten and says:
'I'd like to try the slip and slide.'
The former witness (we'll call him Dain) responds:
'You should not enter the slip and slide room. Only I have looked through the shadow of the door. Beyond the shadow lies a stench that I cannot describe. Some janitorial power other than ours must come before we can again ride the slip and slide.'
To which the jumper (we'll call him Balin) replies:
'But it's the only slip and slide. Any stench must have already left the room, as nobody who has gone in lately has smelled it. I'm going to go jump right in the center of the room, and just see if you can stop me.'
Later on a janitor(we'll call them Gandalf) comes in to the room, sees the results of Balin's incident, and says:
'Oh. Vomit. Now it all makes sense.'
Now this would be an entertaining (if rather short) novel and sequel. Having read it, I wouldn't ask you why Dain wasn't more explicit in his warning, or why Gandalf didn't know what to expect upon entering the room. I would certainly question Balin's decision, but I wouldn't say that there was a plot hole in your novel or it's sequel.

If you want your novel to be in line with Greenwood's quote then you'll have to allow the vomit to have the capability and desire to destroy all possible eye witnesses. Dain could still identify the vomit by the stench from outside the room. Still, a lot of things smell bad, and it might not be until the janitor goes in and cleans up the mess that your novel world learns what was in the room.

[Greenwood]

My Novel:

There are 10 people in a small room. Another man walks in and vomits on the floor. The room is brightly lit, the 10 people are sighted, awake, and of average intelligence. None of the 10 people ever mention the incident for the rest of their lives.

End of My Novel.

Is there evidence that the "vomit" incident was observed? Does My Novel make sense?

First reaction: don't expect a bestseller. :D

Are you asking for reasons that none of the ten people ever mention the incident? Here are a few: 1) Your small room is the cabin of a ship at sea in a violent storm and no one things anything special of your man being seasick. 2) Your novel is set in ancient Rome and the people are in a Vomitorium at a Roman banquet and when Ceasar entered he missed the bucket and no one wants to mention it. 3) It is a room off the cafeteria of a school I once attended and people vomiting was nothing unusual. :)

[Greenwood]

Aragil has a nasty habit of posting while I am typing. It is even worse when his posts are more entertaining than mine. :mad:

[Harad]

Well at least the twins disagree on the quality of My Novel:

Originally posted by Aragil
Now this would be an entertaining (if rather short) novel and sequel.


Originally posted by Greenwood
First reaction: don't expect a bestseller.

Greenwood: No I was not asking that question, but the answers were entertaining.

Aragil: Dain was outside the room, what about The Ten inside the Room? Note, this is a small-minded novel and cities only have 10 people. Thus The Ten is a significant population of my Inner Earth.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

My Screenplay:

Doni the dwarf is sitting around the Hall of Records with his pals Dobi, Maynard, Patsi, and a few others.

Dobi: "Hey, was that a scream from down below? I guess I'll go and check it out."

Dobi exits, never to return. After a few minutes, Maynard looks up from his scribery.

Maynard: "Hey, what's up with Dobi? He's been gone kind of a long time. I think I'll go look for him."

Maynard exits, never to return. After a few more minutes, Doni blinks his eyes.

Doni: "Hmmm... what could have happened to Dobi and Maynard? I'll take a walk down to the lower halls."

Doni exits. The other dwarves contine with their important record-keeping duties. Soon, Doni comes running through the door.

Doni: "Hey, guys, I was on my way down to the basement when I heard a lot of yells and this funny whipping noise, and started feeling really weird. Then I saw this, um, thing, only I didn't really get a very good look at it 'cause it scared the pants off me." (Displays his exposed boxer shorts.) "I suddenly realized it'd be nice to live out in the sunshine for a change. Work on my tan, ya know? See ya..."

Doni exits. The other dwarves look at each other.

Patsi: "Hmmm... do you think we should go down and check out that whippy thing?"

Fade to black.

I think it's got a better shot at getting through rewrite than Harad's novel, anyhow... :p

[Eonwe]

couldn't we switch to "If a tree vomits in the forest, does anyone know".


"The dreaded puking tree of Mozambique" -- Michael Palin

[Harad]

All you know. NLC has called and a treatment is being prepared. 1 or 2 movies?

[Eonwe]

I saw Patton and Blazing Saddles... I used to listen to the Doobie Brothers...

What is interesting in this "logical" debate is the following:

Facts
1) Gandalf did not know a Balrog was in Moria.
2) Gandalf, Aragorn, et. al. knew something really bad was there, named Durin's Bane.
3) Aragorn says its stupid to go into Moria.

So, you have only a few choices:

Conclusions:
1) Gandalf is stupid.
2) Aragorn is smarter than Gandalf, since he warns Gandalf specifically.
3) Gandalf had some other unknown motive in going to Moria, that he could not convince Aragorn or did not tell Aragorn.
4) It just made the book better.

[Snaga]

Excuse me while I run away from the bunfight you are trying to start....

[aragil]

Bunfight? You mean with Bunnywhippit? Is she around here?
And what do Blazing Saddles, Patton, and the Doobie Bros have to do with Buddy Rich, Gene Kruppa, Dionne W, or Ms. Cleo?

[Greenwood]

Eonwe

I would offer another alternative: Gandalf thought all the other routes were potentially more dangerous for the Fellowship.


(Besides, he thought they could slip through while the Balrog was playing a few sets down in the Khazad-dum afterhours club with Azog, Jr. and the Orcettes. :) )

[Eonwe]

on the smelly slip and slide

[Harad]

When looking at UT for clues as to "Sauron's Duplicity" I was reminded of the connection between the Elves and Moria. Again, this poses the question of why so little was realized about Durin's Bane.


But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor [see The Silmarillion p. 51], had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains.
Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age, and established the (primarily but by no means solely) Noldorin realm of Eregion. It may be that Galadriel chose it because she knew