Did Ringwraiths Botch Murder in Bree?

[Mellon]

I guess you can tell that I thought this scene went differently...

[Greenwood]

It was loyal to the book in the sense that it could have happened that way. The book does not say who was responsible. Strider does say of the Black Riders: "they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people". But this was not an open attack. This was a clandestine break-in at night in the dark. It was not even discovered until the next morning. It might have been by the Black Riders or it might have been by confederates that the Black Riders sent. The book leaves it an open question.

[Mellon]

Of course you're right, and since it is not said specifically who was responsible it is up to informed critics like us to put forth our best guess!

I just don't think this was Ringwraith style to slash bolsters and trash a room. For one thing, they seemed to rely more on their sense of smell, and this ought to have told them that there was no living thing in that room.

[Greenwood]

Mellon

Since the question you asked in the poll was whether the moive was loyal to the book and since the book does not answer the question, I do not see how you can state that the movie was wrong. It might be wrong, or it might be right. The book gives us no way to answer the question. As for the wraiths "knowing" there was no living thing in the room, how would they know that until they actually entered the room? As for slashing everything, one of the main weapons is fear. The news of what happened in that room and the raid on the stables certainly created quite a stir in Bree the next morning when it was discovered. It certainly made it impossible for Strider and the hobbits to slip away unobtrusively the next day. I am not arguing that the Black Riders definitely did the attack themselves. There is no way to know. The book leaves it an open question.

[Mormegil]

Book. What book?
LOL

I think that scene in the film was influenced more by Bakshi than the book. Perhaps it is because Bakshi's interpretation of the scene was accepted by people. PJ just thought he would copy it as it was an accepted idea.
It also adds to the evilness of the Nazgul.

[Lindir]

I was always sure it was the Ring-wraiths and it never occured to me that the text was inconclusive. Strange. But since I've always thought it was the wraiths, to me the movie version is as I had pictured it.

[Tar-Palantir]

Where-oh-where did that thread go? This was discussed in a thread a month or two ago and someone (sorry, I can't remember who) made a compelling argument that (in the book) it was NOT the Nazgul, but Men working for them who attacked the room. Anyone else remember that discussion and the passage cited?

[Thorin]

I think that as creepy and menacing as it would be to have had the wraiths be the ones who sacked the room, I don't believe it was them:

1) I'm sure that the tavern and other night-life was still around and I doubt that the wraiths could find their way, not only into Bree itself, but into the inn without someone taking notice. Just their mere presence was enough to scare everyone out of their wits. Maybe one or two very secretly, but not the amount that PJ showed.

2) The only evidence that shows that the riders were even near Bree was the one who was bending over Merry...

I'm pretty sure that there is more evidence concerning the presence of the riders in Bree and Aragorn''s comments, but I will need to refer back to the book.

I will not fault PJ for making such a scene seeing as it was fairly ambiguous, but I think that it was Bill Ferny and his men. Otherwise, why would there be even mention of them leaving the tavern after Frodo's mishap if they were not up to no good?

[aragil]

Bill Ferny and his Southerner were 'chatting' with a couple Black Riders when Merry ran accrossed them. I'm sure they were telling the black riders that Baggins was in the Prancing Pony. The question then becomes whether the Black Riders would tell Bill & Buddy to go back and slash, or whether the Black Riders would do it themselves. As the One Ring itself was the prize, I see no reason that it couldn't have been the Nazgul hacking and slashing.

[Mellon]

Tar-Palantir...
I, too, would be eager to know who argued that hired help did the bed-slashing. (Throw me a bone!)

Greenwood...
If we had any certainty about "right" and "wrong", there would be very little discussion in this forum! But I didn't create the poll to ask for a right or wrong answer; it was merely to see what the prevailing opinion was.


I'm not out to criticize the dramatic scene from the movie. It's just that I always thought it was hired help. IMHO:

1. The Nazgul, with their smelling sense, would not have stabbed an empty bed.

2. These Nazgul are former kings, would they really stoop to prying open windows and tossing beds about?

3. The horses were also all quietly released during the night... this sounds more like work of henchmen. I also would not expect horses to quietly tolerate being near Nazgul.

4. Aragon's opinion was that the Nazgul would not attack a house with many people unless they were desparate; instead he suggested that they had influence over some in Bree. "They will drive these wretches to some evil work", he said

Any takers?

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Where-oh-where did that thread go? This was discussed in a thread a month or two ago and someone (sorry, I can't remember who) made a compelling argument that (in the book) it was NOT the Nazgul, but Men working for them who attacked the room. Anyone else remember that discussion and the passage cited?

Maybe you meant Kuduk's post here? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=38596&#post38596)

Although I always thought it was the nazgul themselves, I think Thorin, Mellon and Kuduk make it at least likely, (although not proven beyond a doubt) that it's not the Nazgul themselves who do the attacking at the inn. So I'll take it, Mellon.

[Greenwood]

1. The Nazgul, with their smelling sense, would not have stabbed an empty bed.
But the Nazgul, or their henchmen, might stab and slash the bedding in frustration on finding the rooms empty.

2. These Nazgul are former kings, would they really stoop to prying open windows and tossing beds about?
But the Nazgul are just Sauron's flunkies now. I do not see either the Nazgul, or their henchmen, being reluctant to do whatever it takes to fulfill Sauron's commands.

3. The horses were also all quietly released during the night... this sounds more like work of henchmen. I also would not expect horses to quietly tolerate being near Nazgul.
You have a point here that the Nazgul would probably frighten the horses, but the Nazgul could have their henchmen steal the horses while they entered the rooms. It could be a joint operation.

4. Aragon's opinion was that the Nazgul would not attack a house with many people unless they were desparate; instead he suggested that they had influence over some in Bree. "They will drive these wretches to some evil work", he said
As I pointed out above, Aragorn said: "they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people". This was not an open attack, but a stealthy attack in the dark of night. But, yes, the Nazgul could have had henchmen do it.


All of the above is not to say that anyone's opinion on this matter is wrong; nor anyone else's right. Just that the issue is unresolvable with the information given in the book. Reasonable arguments can be advanced either way.

[Mellon]

Greenwood:

Your points are well made, and in the spirit of ongoing speculation perhaps we can drag this thread out a bit further... (!) ;)

I still think it's out of character for Nazgul to throw beds and slash bolsters out of frustration. Note how controlled and contained they were at Weathertop. I would have expected a frustrated sort of Nazgul personality to have trashed their camp, sustained a seige, slash up Merry and Pippin, etc...

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Bill the Pony


Maybe you meant Kuduk's post here? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=38596&#post38596)

Although I always thought it was the nazgul themselves, I think Thorin, Mellon and Kuduk make it at least likely, (although not proven beyond a doubt) that it's not the Nazgul themselves who do the attacking at the inn. So I'll take it, Mellon.

Thanks Bill! That was it.

[DGoeij]

never really gave it a lot of thought.

I always assumed it was the Nazgul. But I see it could have been 'locals' as well.

[Harad]

I thought that Kuduk post was pretty convincing. I also agree with Mormegil that Bakshi plowed the ground turing the attackers into the Nazgul. No doubt for both movies, its a good cinematic choice.

If it were the Nazgul in the book (I dont think it is), it just adds to their portrayal as incompetent boobs, something that is present in other instances during the Keystone Kops chase to Rivendell.

[Eonwe]

Can we at least agree that the FotR Movie shows a wonderful Barliman's soiling his pants scene while the Ringwraiths enter the room behind the door?

[daisy]

I also felt a bit of a Keystone Cop vibe in terms of the Nazgul in the film - they seemed very stupid and unable to formulate a plane. The other thing that bugged me was the timeframe of the Nazgul going through the Shire - at one point we seem them booting down the road and scaring that man and his dog - quite a while later they run into the Hobbits- this seemed like a too large gap for the mighty Nazgul - also, I never got scared of them - until I guess the creepy scene where Frodo is stabbed and you see the actual faces of the old kings...I like the idea that it is a bunch of other jerks trying to find and kill the hobbits - but what then, the Nazgul would sneak in and take the ring or something?

[Mellon]

This is kinda fun... thinking about Nazgul as Keystone Cops.

Could this be a built in shortcoming in the book? Tolkien seemed to want to create these supernatural characters, armed with fear and power unseen, whose distant presence could bring a sense of dread...
Very, very spooky...

But then, how do a pack of hobbits and a Ranger with a broken sword run the gauntlet to Rivendell?(I did think it was an improvement in the movie to keep the shards in Rivendell... what experienced scout & outdoorsman would burden himself with a broken hilt?)

There has to be some tremendous luck for the party, and some bumbling by the Nazgul. There was so much open ground between Bree and Rivendell that there had to be gross errors by Nazgul to miss the hobbits, especially after the hobbits were discovered at Weathertop.

[Ged]

There is an interesting contrast in the book between the apparently incompetent or extremely unlucky Nazgul at the beginning of the book, and the terrifying Lord of the Nazgul at the gates of Minas Tirith near the end. In the latter scene The L of N seems genuinely powerful, and at least willing to even try to take on Gandalf.

In my view this parallels other similar mood changes through the book. The 1st chapter begins almost in the same vein as "The Hobbit", e.g. Gandalf as the firework expert with the sticky out eyebrows. After "Shadow of the Past" and then increasingly the book turns not only darker but more self-consistent. This reflects the timescale over which JRRT actually did the writing.

Many of the apparent inconsistencies in the book can be traced to these early chapters. For example, if Bilbo used the ring fairly regularly (which I think we can agree that he did) why didn't Sauron become aware of him?

Re the scene at Bree, I always read the book that it WAS the Nazgul who attacked the Inn. The Lord of the Nazgul at the end of the book who faced the armies of Gondor would have had no problem with a lighted Inn and a few bumbling drinkers (he didn't know Aragorn was there). He wouldn't have allowed Ferny or any other person to get hold of the ring.

[Mellon]

I agree, there is a transition as LOTR progresses. Other critics have noted this also, suggesting that the loss of Gandalf in Moria was necessary in order to resurrect him with the necessary powers, respect, and mystery to take on his advanced role in the later books. Gandalf in Minas Tirith is a far cry more powerful than the rather self-indulgent wizard stuck in a tree in U]The Hobbit[/U].

I just find it hard to see a flesh sniffing Nazgul mistakenly stabbing a lifeless bed. Furthermore, oughtright murder of the hobbits as attempted in the movie would not be too bright for ones dedicated to finding the Ring, what if Frodo had hidden it before going to bed? And what good would it be to slash beds out of frustration... the horses were released (blocking escape), and if there was an aura of safety in the Prancing Pony, the Nazgul might have had a better chance of being successful the next night there. As it was, the party felt unsafe sticking around.

Also, the burglars in Bree came in by the window, but in Crickhollow the Nazgul broke down the front door as Fatty Bolger was running away. No sneaking in through the windows there.

[Harad]

'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?' 'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'

Just to reproduce the fabled Kukuk quote. Why would they have this discussion if later the Nazgul did enter the rooms and attack? Its always possible that Aragorn was wrong, but why point that out?

and


As soon as Strider had roused them all, he led the way to their bedrooms. When they saw them they were glad that they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping; the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung upon the floor; the brown mat was torn to pieces.

You'll have a hard time convincing me that this description is "evil" enuf for the Nazgul their own selves.

I agree with Ged about the shifting "competence" of the Nazgul. Remember also that the Witch-King in the earlier days had been powerful enuf to wipe out the Kingdom of Arnor, full of blokes just like Aragorn (or close anyway). Maybe the Witch-King himself wasnt at the various encounters until Weathertop (was he there?) but that means there was a BIG drop off in competence when you went down to the lesser Nazgul. The Witch-King was certainly at the Ford of Bruinen but by then it was too late.

[aragil]

It was the Witch-King at Weathertop showing the first glimmer of Nazgul-competence: He was the one that stabbed Frodo. Khamul the Easterling was the second in command, and he was the one botching things in the Shire. He was also the most afraid of water, so perhaps that was him on the other side of the Buckleberry Ferry.
But here's another reason to think that it was the Nazgul: what would have happened if they had stayed in their room? Imagine Strider in the room with the Hobbits when Ferny's wide-end slips through the window. Worst-case scenario, the Hobbits have to 'borrow' Bill the Pony from a recently deceased Ferny. For that matter, why are we assuming that the ponies were scared off before the attack on the room? It seems to make more sense to run off the ponies after the attack on the hobbits' room was foiled.
So anyway, I think the more asthetically pleasing reading has the Nazgul assault the room, that way Strider wouldn't have been able to help them if they had stayed in the room. IMO, even Merry, Pippin, and Sam would have been enough with their Barrow-Blades to thwart Ferny and the Southerner. Ferny was certainly cowed by the Hobbits alone during the Scouring of the Shire. Perhaps Aragorn said one thing, then thought another. Doubtlessly (Shirley?) he would not have kept them in a different room if he thought the only danger came from Ferny and the Southerner.
Also, Frodo wakes up in the night 'as if some sound or presence had disturbed him.' Do Ferny and the Southerner have such a strong presence? And then there's Butterbur's statement: 'Guests unable to sleep in their beds, and good bolsters ruined and all!' Sounds like Nazgul to me!

[Harad]

They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too.

Classic case of misdirection by the character (and the author)?


(Shirley?) he would not have kept them in a different room if he thought the only danger came from Ferny and the Southerner.

What "General" would chose to take the full brunt of any attack of unknown size, instead of having the blows fall harmlessly?

[daisy]

I still say it would have taken the Nazgul a nanosecond to realize the Hobbits were not in the room and then they would have just left - they wouldn't have bothered to ransack an empty room - this would have been so beneath them and such a human response. From the first step into that room they would have known nobody with the one ring was there - I say some evil guys were lined up by Ferny, went in to apprehend the Hobbits and take them to a certain location where the Nazgul would try to get the ring - when they saw the room was empty they were incensed and maybe looking for things to steal....

Not a Nazgul heist it seems.

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by aragil
IMO, even Merry, Pippin, and Sam would have been enough with their Barrow-Blades to thwart Ferny and the Southerner. Ferny was certainly cowed by the Hobbits alone during the Scouring of the Shire.
But by the time of the scouring of the shire, the hobbits had grown, both in wisdom and in swordcraft. IIRC at the inn in Bree, none of the hobbits had ever had to use their swords in real combat. I'm not so sure if the four of them would have been able to beat a number of men almost twice their size.

Perhaps Aragorn said one thing, then thought another. Doubtlessly (Shirley?) he would not have kept them in a different room if he thought the only danger came from Ferny and the Southerner.
Agree with Harad here :o , why take the risk if you can avoid it?


Also, Frodo wakes up in the night 'as if some sound or presence had disturbed him.' Do Ferny and the Southerner have such a strong presence?
Actually, now that I think of it, this seems to imply it was not the Nazgul. Otherwise it would have stated something like: Frodo woke up with a feeling of dread on him. Just like Fatty could feel the presence of the Nazgul all day long, even though they were still outside his garden. Shouldn't the hobbits have felt fear if the nazgul were in the next room? This sounds like Bill Ferny bumped his head on the window sill and yelled ouch!


edit: I believe the scene in the movie can not have been true to the book, because there were three of them at Crickhollow at the time of the attack, and there were only 5 total in the neighbourhood, (I guess), so at most there could have been two of them at the Inn?

[Mellon]

... amazing how BTP can understand JRRT enough to rewrite a passage for a hypothetical, but his is a nicely made point.

I also agree that a theoretical Nazgul temper tantrum in the inn doesn't jive with their ex-kinglyness, even if they are now high-class henchmen for Sauron.

And what about Bill Ferny's "squint eyed companion", that was not to be found the day after the raid? "it appeared that he was nobody's friend, and nobody could recollect when he had joined their party."

A suspect?

[Chymaera]

Sauron sent the Nazguls to the Shire to get Baggins and get the Ring. Sauron also keep the nine rings in Mordor. He didn't want a lot of independent thinking going on while they searched.

[Mellon]

What makes you say that, Chymaera? I always assumed the Nine wore the Nine. But you bring up a good point... what was to keep a Nazgul from taking the One for himself???

[Harad]

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3226

discusses whether the (no)RingWraith had Rings--they didnt.

This is funny to me since:

1. Where is their Power, if their Rings of Power are elsewhere?
2. What's to stop Sauron from giving away the Rings again, to get another 9?
3. Why are they such wimps that they can't break away from Sauron once the Ring "controllers" are gone?

Supposedly they are such "slaves" at this point they would never contend for the Ring but bring it back to Dad, wagging their shrouds. Maybe that is why they are so competency-challenged.

[Mellon]

Thanks Harad, I found that thread a few minutes after my last posting. BTW, quite a humorous rendition of the situation on your part, LOL! Will follow this conversation there, but seems there is little to grapple on factually.

[Roseberry]

daisy-

The Ringwraiths' sense of smell couldn't have been all THAT keen, or the hobbits would have been caught immediately when they were hiding under the road overhang & the wraith was right over their heads, sniffing. It always seemed to me in the book that they were very uncomfortable in the physical world, and their senses were not tuned in as sharply as ours are, even smell. The room at Bree was a special hobbit-sized room, so it had been only ever used for hobbits; it probably REEKED of hobbit from past use.

Also, someone wondered why Bilbo wore the ring frequently & was never caught by Sauron; in the book, Sauron has never actually seen the holder of The Ring - that's played up in the movie. For example, on Amon Hen, Frodo feels the eye looking for him, sort of sweeping back & forth like a lighthouse beam, but he manages to get the ring off before the eye sees him. That's one thing that's bothered me about the movie; it brings up some obvious questions if Sauron can so easily detect where the Ring is & who has it. In the book, that doesn't happen.

[Harad]

Roseberry:
What scene(s) are you referring to in the movie? The book at Amon Hen is an unfortunate example, where the movie handles it better. In the book Frodo barely escapes the Big Eye on Amon Hen. Then 2 minutes and 100 yards later he puts the Ring on again, something which asks the questions "What WAS he thinking?" and "Did Sauron take the rest of the day off?" In the movie he doesnt put the Ring on again.

[Roseberry]

Harad-
Referring to the thread regarding whether the Ringwraiths would have destroyed the hobbit room at Bree as they did in the movie. Several people have mentioned the Nazguls' sense of smell as a reason why they would have *known* the hobbits weren't actually sleeping in the room. The scene I was talking about was Frodo's first encounter with one of the wraiths on the road, when they were hiding with the mushrooms. My point was simply that their sense of smell can't have been tremendous, even though it was the one they relied on the most.

In the scene with Amon Hen, my sense from the book was that it was a special place, where the kings or leaders went to "see" what was going on in the world. It was for that reason that Sauron came the closest to actually seeing Frodo - he was sitting on the seat of "seeing" at the time. That was one of my points; it wasn't as cut and dried in the book that you popped on the ring and *POOF!* you were in Sauron's lap. It was much more of a searching & not finding, until the end.

[Harad]

Originally posted by Roseberry
I was talking about was Frodo's first encounter with one of the wraiths on the road, when they were hiding with the mushrooms. My point was simply that their sense of smell can't have been tremendous, even though it was the one they relied on the most.

I am sorry to say that I can't explain that scene on the road, no how. The Nazgul are servants of the OneRing. Here is one Nazgul literally inches from the OneRing, yet despite smell, intuition, or just plain magical attraction, the Nazgul proceeds to gallop off in the wrong direction. Wha?


In the scene with Amon Hen, my sense from the book was that it was a special place, where the kings or leaders went to "see" what was going on in the world. It was for that reason that Sauron came the closest to actually seeing Frodo - he was sitting on the seat of "seeing" at the time. That was one of my points; it wasn't as cut and dried in the book that you popped on the ring and *POOF!* you were in Sauron's lap. It was much more of a searching & not finding, until the end.

There are 2 problems with this. One is psychological: how much does Frodo know of this Amon Hen story? He is a reasonably intelligent but not academically learn-ed Hobbit. He barely escapes the worst Evil on ME by removing the Ring, and then promptly puts the Ring on again. Where is the mathematical calculation that tells him that it wasn't safe, and then moments later it is safe.

Second Aragorn then runs to Amon Hen and sees...nothing. I don't see any particular magical qualities there.

[Mellon]

Harad...

My take on the Amon Hen scene was that there was something unique about the structure of the place that made Frodo know that it was special. Like some tourist attractions in the US, once you step into that certain spot you understand that you are taking in a very unique view, or can hear uniquely well, etc. Upon stepping off of the spot the sense of vision, and vulnerability, disappeared.

The scene of the sniffing Ringwraith near the mushrooms is tough. I suspect the sense of smell was strong to be able to pick up the scent of a path, like a hound. But we don't know about wind conditions, etc. Then the wraith seemed to get disturbed by the Elves. Reminds me of ghosts... maybe this was the desired effect.

[Harad]

Where did Frodo get the refresher course on Gondor geography? If you had never been there before, and you just escaped with your life because you were wearing the Ring, would you put the Ring back on again? Where is the manual that tells him "in this spot you will be filleted by Sauron, but if you move 100 yards to the right, you are safe."

[Mellon]

I take your point. Before this thread I had not realized this paradoxical angle. I think it is certainly an act worthy of questioning, but consider:

Frodo had not felt the Eye upon putting on the ring to avoid Boromir.
The ring had perhaps just saved his life. The ancient chair where Frodo stepped up to on the summit was clearly a special place, and a place where he felt exposed. Also, there he seemed to enter a dreamlike state. This was an experience clearly different than any prior experience, and something he apparently assumed was associated with having been in that particular location.

My image of the summit of Amon Hen is like to that of precipitous summit in climbing... when you reach such an exposed place you know that it is special; you don't need any map to tell you this. For Frodo, the huge flagstones, the battlement, the carven pillars, and the many stairs leading to the one seat would have been other clues.

I too, would have appreciated an extra sentence when Frodo slipped on the ring again... perhaps he could have put it on with some trepidation, and confirmed his sense that he was not so exposed once off the summit chair. Maybe JRRT was intimating trepidation by describing Frodo as <slowly> pulling out the ring again.

We see repeated examples of Hobbit resiliency throughout LOTR. Events that would have us mere men quivering and traumatized for days are quickly brushed off by Hobbits. I'd chalk this one up to being another such event.

[Roseberry]

He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Numenor.
And Frodo saw everything that was going on everywhere -- Orthanc, Misty Mountains, Mirkwood, Isengard, Harad(!), Minas Tirith, etc.
And suddenly he felt the Eye . . . he knew that it had become aware of his gaze.
Because he was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing. Even if you weren't familiar with this place, it would occur to you that there was something special about suddenly seeing everything everywhere. After the crisis had passed & the Eye had not seen him, he had no reason to think that after he had gone away from Amon Hen that there would be a problem. After all, in the book, he has used the ring before & not experienced encounters with the Eye. It all points to the virtues inherent in the Seat of Seeing. Just like picking up one of the Palantirs and singing out, "Yoo-hoo!"

[Harad]

Sorry. But it was the Ring, not the seat of Amon Hen that exposed Frodo. How do we know this? We read what Aragorn--the heir of Isildur, moments later, experienced:


Aragorn hesitated. He desired to go to the high seat himself, hoping to see there something that would guide him in his perplexities; but time was pressing. Suddenly he leaped forward, and ran to the summit, across the great flag-stones, and up the steps. Then sitting in the high seat he looked out. But the sun seemed darkened, and the world dim and remote. He turned from the North back again to North, and saw nothing save the distant hills, unless it were that far away he could see again a great bird like an eagle high in the air, descending slowly in wide circles down towards the earth.

The Hill was an observation post, in the normal sense. Perhaps it had some ancient connection with important events but clearly did not confer magical abilities to Aragorn.

[Roseberry]

Since Frodo was already wearing the Ring before he sat in the Seat, perhaps that gave him the power to see.

[Mellon]

I agree. IMHO, you are both correct in a sense.

The Seat of Seeing was obviously a place of great importance as it seems done up more elaborately than a simple observation post. Prior to getting on the seat, Frodo had the ring on, and was not "Seeing". We can assume that it was some combination of having the ring on and sitting on the Seat that imparted power. The power to See, and exposure to being Seen. We can conceive that Frodo also learned this.

This state of Seeing and almost getting Seen was initiated when Frodo reached the Seat with the Ring on. So it follows that he understood this combination of circumstances to be putting him in danger. Once he got the ring off, he was no longer in the "hot seat", as it were.

As far as I can tell, we have no way of knowing whether Frodo knew of this Seat, or any powers it may have imparted. From Aragon's passage, we can deduct that there were powers associated with the place. But I think that the grandeur and the location of the place were enough to make him suspect it was a special Seat. The temporal association of events were then enough to let him know he ought not sit there with the Ring on! But Frodo had felt secure with the ring on immediately prior to reaching the seat. So it is not a stretch to believe he would again try the Ring once off the seat.

Interesting that he did not See the orcs in his own backyard...

[Nenya Evenstar]

I know that I'm probably going to have a lot of people disagree with me on this because I haven't seen anyone say it yet. The Ringwraiths did NOT tear up the hobbit's rooms at "The Prancing Pony" in Bree!!! It was definitely either Bill Ferny, Harry, or some of the Southerners. Nowhere in the books is it said that the Ringswraiths did it! This really bugs me...

[joxy]

In all the many years I have known the books I have had no doubt it
was the wraiths who did the damage,
but you're right, Nenya, the book doesn't say who it was!!
What it does say is that Aragorn did not think the wraiths would attack,
and that he thought they would persuade Ferny etc to do their dirty work, so you have to be right about who it was.
What a pity that the dramatic breaking down of the gates and the attempted stabbings are yet more bits of PJ's over-vivid imagination!

[Nenya Evenstar]

I remember how long it took my brother to convince me that it wasn't the Ringwraiths... Now I swear by it and get annoyed by it. I think that is what most people have always thought. Well, it's not true!

Hmmm... I take it that you do not like PJ's movie? I certainly have many things that I do not like about it; but however, I still like the movie (if that makes any sense) a lot. A very lot.

[Grond]

from The Fellowship of the Ring, Strider
'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?' 'No, I
think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that
is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not
openly attack a house where there are lights and many people -not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'
In the chapter entitled Strider, we have Strider speculating that the Nine would not likely try something themselves.from The Fellowship of the Ring, A Knife in the Dark
As soon as Strider had roused them all, he led the way to their
bedrooms. When they saw them they were glad that they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping; the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung upon the floor; the brown mat was torn to pieces.So everyone gets a gold star for correctly answering this thread. :)

[Darth Saruman]

I feel obligated to defend PJ's decision. There just wasn't enough movie time to introduce new bad guys like Bill Ferny into the mix. Besides, to keep it an interesting movie, why use common ruffians as villains when you can have Ringwraiths?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Darth Saruman
I feel obligated to defend PJ's decision. There just wasn't enough movie time to introduce new bad guys like Bill Ferny into the mix. Besides, to keep it an interesting movie, why use common ruffians as villains when you can have Ringwraiths? The answer is coming into my head.... I see it now.... kind of cloudy... Oh Yeah.... because it wasn't in the book.

[Darth Saruman]

Originally posted by Grond
The answer is coming into my head.... I see it now.... kind of cloudy... Oh Yeah.... because it wasn't in the book. But what works great in a book, often doesn't work well in a movie.

[aragil]

We've been through this before in a rather long thread back in Feb-March. As I said there, what Aragorn said is not fact, it is his assesment of the situation. Aragorn is a great man, but not infallible. He has no idea, for instance, that the Black Riders have recently received a severe tongue-lashing from Sauron for their lack of progress on the Ring errand. This was quite simply the most important mission for all of evildom at that time in ME. The Black Riders were on the errand because they were the only ones that Sauron could trust. Why would these baddest of baddies put the task of retrieving the one ring into the hands of Ferny and co? I'm pretty sure Aragorn was wrong on this one.

[Niniel]

There is no reason why the Ringwraitsh would destroy the room. It must have been obvious to them that Frodo & co werent't there, and I don't think they would do something silly like that just to scare Frodo, like 'see what we could hav edoen to you'. Frodo knows already how dangerous they are, and the Wraiths have more important things to do. So the only logical explanation would be that either the Ringwraiths told Bill Ferny to do it, maybe to scare Butterbur, or that Ferny did it himself.

[Nenya Evenstar]

In the Council of Elrond when Gandalf is telling his story he states that only two Black Riders had yet been seen in Bree as of when he arrived there, the night of the day that Strider and the hobbits left. Since the Ringwraiths are reluctant to attack when they are not all there, I can't imagine only two of them trying to do the job. Besides, I'm sure that Butterbur and the other people would have felt their presence.

[Dwimmerlaik]

If the Nazgul did destroy the room in an attempt to kill the hobbits.Then why would they have stopped after they discovered their mistake?I can imagine a scene not unlike Schindler's List with the Nazgul going from room to room in their search.
As this did not happen,I am confident that Aragorn's appraisal of the situation was correct,but not necessarily with his reasons why.
The Nazgul were certainly sufficiently strong even in limited numbers to find the ring in Bree and deal with it's inhabitants .Further,Aragorn could not really have known what position the Nazgul thought themselves in,desperate or otherwise.
Luckily his guess proved correct.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar

Hmmm... I take it that you do not like PJ's movie? I certainly have many things that I do not like about it; but however, I still like the movie (if that makes any sense) a lot. A very lot.

I don't "not like the film"!
There's much of it I like a lot, as you do-
but the bad bits are so bad they get near to ruining the rest!
Broken carrot, she-elf, hobbit sword practice, body down the well- ugh!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Sorry to have made a generalization. :D I'm glad you like the movie. I actually practically adore it - I just enjoy discussing parts of it that don't fit with the book to try to figure out why and see if it is better the way it was made.

[Galadhwen]

What's wrong with the broken carrot and the hobbit sword practice? Do you think the Hobbits would have gone a fighting orcs completely ignorent as to how to use their swords? Besides it breaks the film up a bit. Also a Dwarf skeleton would cause more noise than a stone and so alert the orcs. Am normally a Tolkien purist but for the film you can't completely follow the book tis impossible.:D

[joxy]

Originally posted by Galadhwen
What's wrong with the broken carrot and the hobbit sword practice? Do you think the Hobbits would have gone a fighting orcs completely ignorent as to how to use their swords? Besides it breaks the film up a bit. Also a Dwarf skeleton would cause more noise than a stone and so alert the orcs. Am normally a Tolkien purist but for the film you can't completely follow the book tis impossible.:D

The broken carrot is silly, childish, and nothing to do with the story or the actual characters of the hobbits.
Of course they wouldn't go ignorant of using swords, or of lots of other things, but there was no need at all to add a completely invented scene to prove any of them.
If the film needed breaking up, though I don't know what you mean, there are plenty of scenes from the book that have been omitted (quite reasonably) that could have been put back in place of the practice.
If Tolkien was satisfied that a "plunk" was enough to raise the alert there was no reason at all to change it to a series of loud crashes.
I agree it is impossible to follow ALL the book, but I don't see any problem in following it in these three points.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by joxy


The broken carrot is silly, childish, and nothing to do with the story or the actual characters of the hobbits.
Of course they wouldn't go ignorant of using swords, or of lots of other things, but there was no need at all to add a completely invented scene to prove any of them.
If the film needed breaking up, though I don't know what you mean, there are plenty of scenes from the book that have been omitted (quite reasonably) that could have been put back in place of the practice.
If Tolkien was satisfied that a "plunk" was enough to raise the alert there was no reason at all to change it to a series of loud crashes.
I agree it is impossible to follow ALL the book, but I don't see any problem in following it in these three points.

The scene between the hobbits and Boromir is one of the better scenes in the movie. It shows Merry and Pippins love of Boromir, which comes full circle when they stand in front of him as he is dying.

[Galadhwen]

Thank you Talimon. What I meant by breaking up the film was just a lighthearted moment showing more of who the charachters were and how they got on with others, not just what they did. I agree this could have been gained through the books but I didn't write their script! So what do you think of the whole Gimli beard saving manouver, or the fact that they had Merry and Pippin stealing the crops?

[seadragon]

i was thinking today of the film and why it differs from the book.
it has to tell the story to those who have not read the books. so the scenes have to explain the story to a wider audience.
the care that went into the creation of the film has to be congratulated.
let's not nit pick over discrepancies and variations in the narrative.
enjoy what i consider to be a classic film that stands on its own without the book.
enjoy what i consider to be a book that is a work of genius!

[joxy]

Yes, the hobbits' sword practice and their presence at Boromir's death are well done, but they have nothing to do with the story as written- unless I've missed something and Tolkien did give M & P a special love for Boromir- if so, where is it in the book? The two scenes are extra to the book, yet so many scenes have to be left out because there isn't time for them- isn't there a contradiction there?
Gimli being saved from a fall that doesn't happen in the book would have worked quite well in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs; in FOTR it's silly.
M & P veg-pilfering would have been amusing in any children's film but again is silly here- especially THAT carrot! Again, PJ has time for this nonsense, but not for a whole lot of "real" action.

[Nenya Evenstar]

First about the Ringwraiths:
I do think that Strider was right in his guess as to why the Ringwraiths would not attack Bree because his main reason for this was not because of the small number of Ringwraiths present but because the Ringwraiths knew that sooner or later the hobbits would leave Bree and have to make a journey through the wild. Also, they did not know that the hobbits would meet up with Strider, and they thought that the hobbits would be easy prey in the wild, far away from people. Strider knew this.

In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. FOTR, Strider

Now, as to sword practice, I actually liked that part, even though it was an added scene. In the books there is nothing whatsoever to tell about what the Fellowship did while on their march to Caradhras. I often have wondered what they did during their spare time, and I think that PJ made a wonderful guess.

Personally, I do not like Merry and Pippin being so immature, as they were not that way in the book. I did not like them stealing fireworks, and I did not like them stealing crops. However, I did think it was interesting how PJ used Merry and Pippin to pay a sort of tribute to Frodo's robbing of Farmer Maggot's crops. He was able to mix many scenes into one, and I do admire him for that - he's good at it.

I also do not mind Gimli's "No one touches a dwarf" part. It conveys the idea that dwarves are tough and will act like it.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by joxy
Yes, the hobbits' sword practice and their presence at Boromir's death are well done, but they have nothing to do with the story as written- unless I've missed something and Tolkien did give M & P a special love for Boromir- if so, where is it in the book? The two scenes are extra to the book, yet so many scenes have to be left out because there isn't time for them- isn't there a contradiction there?
Gimli being saved from a fall that doesn't happen in the book would have worked quite well in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs; in FOTR it's silly.
M & P veg-pilfering would have been amusing in any children's film but again is silly here- especially THAT carrot! Again, PJ has time for this nonsense, but not for a whole lot of "real" action.

PJ's goal wasn't to stick in as many scenes from the book as he possibly could. Go see Harry Potter if that's what you are looking for. He was looking for a way to tell the tale to a modern audience while still keeping the essence. Those small bits of comedy hardly ruin anything in my opinion, and you'll notice that Merry and Pippin loose thier happy-go-lucky attitude after Moria. PJ is having them grow and loose thier inocense over the course of the movies.

I love LotR, but lets keep some perspective here. As good as it is, and as real as it seems, it's still not quite history. It's myth, and as such nobody is hurt if some changes are made to make the movie more accessible. Let's put it this way: without those small comedy scenes, the movie would seem much colder and desolate. It would be far more difficult for a modern non-fantasy-reading audience to relate to the tale. Let's just accept the fact that we are talking about a different world at a different time, with wholly different people. If the movie is kept too serious it will fall down in ashes as every fantasy movie has before it. The trick isn't to be as hardcore as possible: it's to tell the tale to the average movie-goer. The fact that it maintains much of the book at all is something I am still overly thankful of. It would have been far too easy for PJ to make the movie more user-friendly for the non-fans, and he wouldn't have necessarily sold less for it. He has kept many important scenes. Heck, I'm even surprised the line "One ring to rule them all..." made it into the movie.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Talimon


PJ's goal wasn't to stick in as many scenes from the book as he possibly could. Go see Harry Potter if that's what you are looking for....Those small bits of comedy hardly ruin anything in my opinion....PJ is having them grow and loose thier inocense....Without those small comedy scenes, the movie would seem much colder and desolate. It would be far more difficult for a modern non-fantasy-reading audience to relate to the tale....He has kept many important scenes.

Of course it wasn't his goal, and that's not what I'm looking for. H Potter is excellent because it is so true to the book, but FOTR is too long to be treated the same way.
The comedy does spoil things, in my opinion, because it is so badly done, so out of tone with the rest of the film.
I can't equate innocence with silliness, which is what those scenes convey.
I believe audiences are brighter than they are given credit for- I don't think they need doses of slapstick every half an hour to keep their attention and to relate to the main story.
I should hope he has kept many important scenes; he would have had to change the title otherwise! Though, seriously, I still give the film 9 out of 10, as one of the best films I have ever seen, and from the advance shots it looks as if TTT and ROTK will be even better because "truer".

[ltas]

The scene with the Nazgul in the bedroom of "The Prancing Pony" did look very dramatic. :rolleyes:
Did anyone else notice how STUPID it was?!
The Ringwraiths walk in. (Let's keep in mind that they're blind, so supposedly they should have an extraordinary sence of smell and hearing). Complete silence. No breathing. No smell.
Still, despite of the fact that there are no signs of hobbits being present, the Ringwraiths attack the pillows!!
As if that's not dumb enough, they need to thrust their swords through "hobbits" three or four times to realize their mistake!!! Pillows are soft and hobbits are not!!!! What kind of warrior are you if you can't notice the difference between hobbits and pillows?!

In the film the Ringwraiths are so helpless and lost most of the time, that you will almost feel sorry for them... ;)

BTW: I do agree with the starter of the thread - the wraiths shouldn't have been in the "PP" in the first place. But since were now discussing PJ's interpretation in general and the bedroom scene in particular, I felt the need to point out other weaknesses of the scene as well, besides the fact that "that wasn't in the book, dammit".

[Grond]

Originally posted by joxy
...and from the advance shots it looks as if TTT and ROTK will be even better because "truer". Don't hold your breath. We have Arwen at Helm's Deep bringing Elves from Lothlorien (is that in the book anywhere?) and then she takes up with some Rohanian refugees and a whole new plot develops. (err... umm... that would be a totally PJ plot that had no dream of existence in the book).

PJ in a recent interview even warned us Tolkien fans to hold our breath due to an increased number of changes in the next two movies because there wasn't enough material and depth in the last two novels to adequately develop the characters on the big screen. And of course, PJ (director of three or four other mediocre films) knows the best way to improve upon a book that is treasured by millions and has been read by some 75 million people. It was written by J. R. R. Tolkien... but what did he know anyway. He lived a while ago and was totally out of touch with this day and time. *Grond's voice drips with sarcasm.*

[joxy]

To Itas, we've established it shouldn't have been the Nazgul attacking the pillows anyway, but some of the local baddies.

Originally posted by Grond
We have Arwen at Helm's Deep bringing Elves from Lothlorien and then she takes up with some Rohanian refugees and a whole new plot develops....PJ----warned there wasn't enough material and depth in the last two novels to adequately develop the characters on the big screen....And of course, PJ (director of three or four other mediocre films) knows the best way to improve upon a book

Well thanks for the bad news Grond!
There was far too much of Arwen at Rivendell, and this makes it clearer than ever that PJ's concern is to get value for money out of Liv Tyler's fee- let the story go hang!
Not enough material and depth- what's he been reading, some strange equivalent of "Lamb's Tales from Shakespeare"?
Your last sentence may be sarcasm Grond, and I don't know anything about PJ's previous films, but this news justifies any degree of sarcasm!

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Grond
Don't hold your breath. We have Arwen at Helm's Deep bringing Elves from Lothlorien (is that in the book anywhere?) and then she takes up with some Rohanian refugees and a whole new plot develops. (err... umm... that would be a totally PJ plot that had no dream of existence in the book).

PJ in a recent interview even warned us Tolkien fans to hold our breath due to an increased number of changes in the next two movies because there wasn't enough material and depth in the last two novels to adequately develop the characters on the big screen. And of course, PJ (director of three or four other mediocre films) knows the best way to improve upon a book that is treasured by millions and has been read by some 75 million people. It was written by J. R. R. Tolkien... but what did he know anyway. He lived a while ago and was totally out of touch with this day and time. *Grond's voice drips with sarcasm.*

1) 95% of those readers have taken the films with complete open arms. Go ask your average Tolkien fan on the street what he thinks.

2) You need to stop spreading fake rumours. Richard Taylor said Arwen isn't at Helm's Deep. End of story.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Talimon


1) 95% of those readers have taken the films with complete open arms. Go ask your average Tolkien fan on the street what he thinks.

2) You need to stop spreading fake rumours. Richard Taylor said Arwen isn't at Helm's Deep. End of story. I must apologize then. I forgot what I had already written once in another thread. That is, that Arwen was to be at Helm's Deep.... the scene's were even shot but then PJ changed his mind because she didn't seem to do well in combat/action scenes. (I posted this somewhere.) The fact remains that PJ intended initially for Arwen Evenstar to appear at Helm's Deep.

So, it was not a false rumour. It was a directorial change of direction.You need to look at the poster's comments with more clarity Talimon. I am one who enjoyed the film immensely. I am also one who realizes that it could have been so much better if PJ had maintained the integrity of the author. Arwen's scene at the Ford's of Bruinen did nothing to strengthen the story. It didn't make the story more diverse. It was a shameless ploy to get the big name female lead on camera sooner rather than later. You movie supporters need to start calling the shots with a little more truth yourselves. Most of the Tolkien purists here loved the film... we just didn't much like the story.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Grond
I must apologize then. I forgot what I had already written once in another thread. That is, that Arwen was to be at Helm's Deep.... the scene's were even shot but then PJ changed his mind because she didn't seem to do well in combat/action scenes. (I posted this somewhere.) The fact remains that PJ intended initially for Arwen Evenstar to appear at Helm's Deep.

So, it was not a false rumour. It was a directorial change of direction.You need to look at the poster's comments with more clarity Talimon. I am one who enjoyed the film immensely. I am also one who realizes that it could have been so much better if PJ had maintained the integrity of the author. Arwen's scene at the Ford's of Bruinen did nothing to strengthen the story. It didn't make the story more diverse. It was a shameless ploy to get the big name female lead on camera sooner rather than later. You movie supporters need to start calling the shots with a little more truth yourselves. Most of the Tolkien purists here loved the film... we just didn't much like the story.

I must appologize myself, then. When I see a post that rips apart PJ's movie as if it was the creation of the devil itself I make the assumption that the one who wrote that post wasn't too fond of the movie. Forgive me if I misunderstood you. I never knew it was possible to enjoy a movie immensly and still despise it's story. That kind of leaves me wondering what you did like about the movie. The visuals? The cinematography? Sorry, but if the story is so weak then those elements will not sustain a movie, esspecially not for 3 whole hours. This has been demonstrated with Episode I and nearly every other special effects packed film as of late. I will not buy the argument that you enjoyed the film but didn't enjoy the story. There is just too much contradiction in such a statement.

What I can buy is this: You enjoyed most of film/story, but there were parts you didn't like. Fine. I might still argue with you, but then it goes over to personal taste.

I can't speak on what PJ said, mostly due to the fact that I have never seen that quote or proof. People have claimed it often, though.

And this sounds pretty sure to me:

Don't hold your breath. We have Arwen at Helm's Deep bringing Elves from Lothlorien (is that in the book anywhere?) and then she takes up with some Rohanian refugees and a whole new plot develops. (err... umm... that would be a totally PJ plot that had no dream of existence in the book).

Sounded to me like you meant that, though maybe there was sarcasm there I didn't pick up.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Itas:

Even though I did start this thread complaining about the Ringwraiths not attacking The Prancing Pony, I still do not necessarily think that the scene is that bad.

The Ringwraiths walk in. (Let's keep in mind that they're blind, so supposedly they should have an extraordinary sence of smell and hearing). Complete silence. No breathing. No smell.

Remember that throughout the entire movie PJ does not make it clear in anyway that the Ringwraiths are supposed to be blind - in fact it seems that they can see quite well. He also does not make the fact clear of the keeness of their other senses.

Still, despite of the fact that there are no signs of hobbits being present, the Ringwraiths attack the pillows!! As if that's not dumb enough, they need to thrust their swords through "hobbits" three or four times to realize their mistake!!! Pillows are soft and hobbits are not!!!! What kind of warrior are you if you can't notice the difference between hobbits and pillows?!


IMO, the thrusting of the swords through the hobbits multiple times was an outburst of frustration. I would have been frustrated had I been in their shoes!

Since PJ does not ever tell the real senses that Ringwraiths have and do not have, I feel that this scene fits with the rest of the of the movie.

[Galadhwen]

Don't they also walk into the Prancing Pony with one hand out in front of them, that could be a way of showing their blindness:rolleyes:

[WakanaTachibana]

a few things to consider 1.I quote p 239 The Fellowship of the Ring First Edition - A knife in the dark... "In the early night Frodo woke from deep sleep suddenly as if some sound or PRESENCE had disturbed him".
2. Does it not seem odd that if Bill and his buddies came into the room that they would trash it considering that they could see. If wraiths had come in they would probably be vicious to the room, considering they could not exactly see what they were looking for.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Don't they also walk into the Prancing Pony with one hand out in front of them, that could be a way of showing their blindness

LOL. Actually I believe they come in holding their swords with both hands.

Does it not seem odd that if Bill and his buddies came into the room that they would trash it considering that they could see. If wraiths had come in they would probably be vicious to the room, considering they could not exactly see what they were looking for.

I think that Bill and his buddies would have been more than capable to trash the room considering that those linked to Sauron enjoy mess and caos (for the book, of course). But I like the idea that the Ringwraiths trashed the room (in the movie) for that reason. However, could they see in the movie? I get the feeling that they could.

[ltas]

As far as I can remember, they did walk into the Prancing Pony with one hand out in front of them.

However, could they see in the movie? I get the feeling that they could.

Not necessarily. They do move around quite self-confidently, but once you get used to blindness, you really can accomplish a lot without the need to use your eyesight. You will rely on your other senses, your capability to memorise the layout of surroundings and the distance between objects and good sense of direction.

All the same, the bedroom scene is not that bad, if we suppose that the Wraiths are not blind. (why didn't I ever think of that before).

[Nenya Evenstar]

As far as I can remember, they did walk into the Prancing Pony with one hand out in front of them.

Hmmm... I will have to watch it - you may be right. :D

Yeah, in the movie I really do not think that the Wraiths are blind. Look at how the one Wraith chased Frodo to the Brandywine. Then in Bree they walk right up to the beds in a totally unfamiliar room. On Weather top they seem to see the hobbits quite plainly. At the Ford they speak directly with Arwen.

[Eledhwen]

PJ seems to have followed Bakshi's plot more closely than Tolkien's. Of all PJ's changes, the only one I really dislike is the Prancing Pony. When I read the book, I saw in my mind a typical English rural inn populated with regulars and travellers and a friendly, overworked innkeeper, where orkish characters would have stood out like a sore thumb. The one in PJ's film was dark and scary - more like the Jamaica Inn at Bolventor, where any one of the guests could have been a murderer.

I can live with Arwen joining the fellowship at Weathertop, the first half of the book being missing, etc, but will the real Barliman Butterbur please step forward.

(in case I'm sued, the Jamaica Inn is a lovely welcoming inn these days, which has gained great publicity from DuMaurier's dark book).

[ltas]

Well, I just realised why the Wraiths had no reason to trash the bedroom in "The Prancing Pony".
The Ring! The One Ring was not in the hobbits' bedroom and therefore the Ringwraiths had no need to enter the room, since they can feel the Ring's presence (or absence).

Oh, and Eledhwen, the inn was indeed very much unlike Tolkien described it (I didn't like it either), but IMO the dark and scary atmosphere of PJ's "PP" fitted very well with PJ's FOTR storyline.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, I just realised why the Wraiths had no reason to trash the bedroom in "The Prancing Pony".
The Ring! The One Ring was not in the hobbits' bedroom and therefore the Ringwraiths had no need to enter the room, since they can feel the Ring's presence (or absence).


Hence why it was not really the Ringwraiths who did it in the first place. Very good point!

I also thought that PJ's inn was very different from the book inn, but I agree with Itas that it fit well with the movie.

[Alcfalath]

Good Afternoon,

The Ringwraiths walk in. (Let's keep in mind that they're blind, so supposedly they should have an extraordinary sence of smell and hearing). Complete silence. No breathing. No smell.

This I most definately disagree with. Ringwriaths live ain the shadow world and for them to exist it the mortal realm they must be clothed in physical form with physical transport. Hense them completely clothed in black hooded garments. In view to blindness, THEY ARE IN THE SHADOW WORLD and cannot see well in daylight. The Nazgul see as Frodo saw with the Ring on and through this would have been able to see at night.

The fact that they had one arm outstrentched forward with the other wielding their swords facing forward was defencive, for anyone who stumbled in front of them so they grasp them with their gauntlets and stab them to death with their swords.

Well, I just realised why the Wraiths had no reason to trash the bedroom in "The Prancing Pony".
The Ring! The One Ring was not in the hobbits' bedroom and therefore the Ringwraiths had no need to enter the room, since they can feel the Ring's presence (or absence).

Also misinterpreted. The wraiths could always sense the rings presence, but not completely accurate, unless the bearer was wearing it or if it was in direct view. Also true for their ability to sense any living creature. So when the Raiths raided the Hobbits room, they knew that the Hobbits were in the Parncing Pony due to Frodo's incident with the ring. Also when the Raiths appeared, all they had todo is use the 'Black Breath' to coax anyone in the town about finding the Hobbits. The Hobbits were foreigners, which was strange enough as hobbits didn't venture much out of 'The Shire' anymore, plus the incident with the Ring would have had people talking and it would have spread over Bree faster than Shadowfax could run. Hence when the Raiths attcked the beds, seeming that they were full, when they found out the beds was empty, they would have been furious and, in trying to find any clues on the Hobbits whereabouts, tore apart the room and destroyed it.

Have a think about this.

Good Afternoon.

[Nenya Evenstar]

In view to blindness, THEY ARE IN THE SHADOW WORLD and cannot see well in daylight. The Nazgul see as Frodo saw with the Ring on and through this would have been able to see at night.

I disagree with this. The Ringwraiths were unable to see Frodo until he put the Ring on. The Wraiths are in the Wraith world and cannot see well at anytime. In the daylight men cast shadows in their minds, and in the dark I do not think this is any different. The Wraiths are able to sense many signs and forms that are hidden from others in the dark, which is why they are to be most feared at night. They do not see the same as Frodo saw with the Ring on, for to Frodo's eyes nothing changed when he put the Ring on but the Nazgul.

[Popqueen62]

u huh.i agree with u.

[Galadhwen]

And when Frodo puts the Ring on the Nazguls heads snap to him, focusing on him as they can see him. By da way Nenya when the Rider chases Frodo to the Brandywine his horse can most probobly see for him

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, by that time Frodo is already on the edge of the Wraith world so the Wraiths don't need their horses to help them see him anymore. But yeah, the horses do help the Wraiths see things.

[Pale King]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
I know that I'm probably going to have a lot of people disagree with me on this because I haven't seen anyone say it yet. The Ringwraiths did NOT tear up the hobbit's rooms at "The Prancing Pony" in Bree!!! It was definitely either Bill Ferny, Harry, or some of the Southerners. Nowhere in the books is it said that the Ringswraiths did it! This really bugs me...
But likewise, nowhere in the books does it say that it was Bill Ferny or anyone else either. Its just speculation. 99 out of a hundred people would assume that it was the Nazgul. They found their way all the way to Bree, they didnt need anyone else to do their killing for them and they would have wanted to close in on the ring as soon as they were able. I cant see them steppig back while Bill Ferny and his mates went in after the ring to murder a room full of Hobbits.

I'm happy with it being the Nazgul.

[Nenya Evenstar]

But what about my quote (read my past posts) from Aragorn? I just can't see Tolkien putting anything like that in if he really meant the Ringwraiths to attack the inn.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
But what about my quote (read my past posts) from Aragorn? I just can't see Tolkien putting anything like that in if he really meant the Ringwraiths to attack the inn.
For the last **** years I've taken it for granted it was the wraiths who attacked the bolsters, but now it's quite clear it couldn't have been them. I can see Pale King's point of view, but the book does confirm the opposite view, however indirectly.

[Anárion]

I was gonna quote someone from the first page but I forget who....
Anyways, I think that the Nazgul attacked the room because they might have thought Frodo hid the ring there......(I know thats wrong though, because they can sence the ring, at all times.)
But....if they can sence the ring at all times, and Sauron can sence it even more...then why couldnt Sauron sence it when Samwise put it on in his own land!?!?:confused:

Anyway, I think that the Nazgul would be able to dectect the ring if it was in Bree, even if Frodo was hiding somewhere, or whatever.
They could search hire people to search the town and get the ring from Frodo. Maybe even some of them could wait outside of the town for Frodo and co. to come out of the town and they could wait a little bit and ambush them a few miles outside of the town's watch.

Besides, even the heir of Elendil the Tall couldnt destroy a Ringwraith. And a few hobbits could do nothing at all.(At that time)

As for sight, they cant see, but they can feel everything....or thats what I think anyway. They can feel each other and they can feel the ring, at all times...but if they can feel the ring, as they are servents of it, why couldnt they sence it when they were 50 or less meters away from it?

And further more....accautly....I need to shut up.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Welcome to the forum, Anarion! :)

I'm still of the opinion that the Nazgul did not attack the room in Bree. Here's why:

From "The Fellowship of the Ring":
"The Riders must have left their horses outside, and passed back through the South-gate in secret. They will know all the news now, for they have visited Bill Ferny; and probabably that Southerner was a spy as well. something may happen in the night, before we leave Bree."

"What will happen?" said Merry. "Well they attack the inn?"

"No, I think not," said Strider. "They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie befre us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and maybe, the gatkeeper too.



But....if they can sence the ring at all times, and Sauron can sence it even more...then why couldnt Sauron sence it when Samwise put it on in his own land!?!?

[Anárion]

Oh....that clears things up a lot....
But....did the Ringwraiths tell Ferny or whoever that they are searching for this huge ring of power that is really really powerful???

And also, why did you say welcome to the forums?
Is it because you have never seen me here before?

[joxy]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
I'm still of the opinion that the Nazgul did not attack the room in Bree.
I'm pretty sure it's a "fact" now that it wasn't them.
The film makes the idea particularly odd by the way the wraiths come storming into Bree one moment, and the next are stealthily making their way through the inn to the hobbits' room. Everything that happens in Bree is pretty confusing, and it's probably just as well that the scene shifts so abruptly to the five of them well on their way away from there!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Anarion:
But....did the Ringwraiths tell Ferny or whoever that they are searching for this huge ring of power that is really really powerful???
I don't think they would have told Ferny (or anyone else for that matter) what they were searching for. They could get a hold of people by fear and control those people by that fear. There was no need for them to mention the ring - just hobbits.

I welcomed you to the forum because you were registered in October, and it is still quite early in that month. Also, I haven't had the privilege of seeing you very often before. :)


joxy:
I'm pretty sure it's a "fact" now that it wasn't them.
I know, but there may still be people who don't agree with me, and I'd like to respect those people.

[Galadhwen]

Just going slightly off topic for a minute, I was wondering how the hell could the hobbits and Aragorn fight the Ringwraiths at Amon Sul? Aren't people meant to have the whole dark shadow of despair and what have you desend on their arrival. Was it just because Sauron's power wasn't at his strongest so they weren't as potent as at Pellanor.
Sorry I'll stop rambling now:o :rolleyes:

[Anárion]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Anarion:

I don't think they would have told Ferny (or anyone else for that matter) what they were searching for. They could get a hold of people by fear and control those people by that fear. There was no need for them to mention the ring - just hobbits.

I welcomed you to the forum because you were registered in October, and it is still quite early in that month. Also, I haven't had the privilege of seeing you very often before. :)


Oh, ok, LOL.
Well, I am welcomed, and although I have already been yelled at 4 times by different people it is quite a nice site.:rolleyes:
Back on topic, I think that Ferny and co. DID ransack the place because the Ringwraiths were lazy.:D ;)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Anarion, well, you are welcomed by me, and you won't ever catch me yelling at you. Glad you like the site. :p

Galadhwen, thanks for the post! I don't mind it that you drifted off topic at all. I've thought about your question and here's what I've come up with:

Some people were known to overcome their fear of the Wraiths as witnessed by Eowyn and Merry during the Battle of the Pellenor. Aragorn, I'm sure, would have had very little problem overcoming such a fear. After all, it was his will that led all those people through the Paths of the Dead. The hobbits were terrified of the Ringwraiths, but I'm sure that Aragorn would have been strong enough to overcome his fear.

[Galadhwen]

Good point I kinda forgot about that!:rolleyes: Cheers Nenya:D

[Grond]

Actually the southerner in Bree was in league with the Witch-king and the other Ring-wraiths, although not of his own choosing. from Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring

Some while ago one of Saruman's most trusted servants (yet a ruffianly fellow, an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had Orc-blood) had returned from the borders of the Shire, where he had been negotiating for the purpose of "leaf" and other supplies. Saruman was beginning to store Isengard against war. This man was now on his way back to continue the business, and to arrange for the transport of many goods before autumn failed. 18 He had orders also to get into the Shire if possible and learn if there had been any departures of persons well-known recently. He was well supplied with maps, lists of names, and notes concerning the Shire.

This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants if he had been a true ally. The Witch-king also obtained much information, including some about the only name that interested him: Baggins. It was for this reason that Hobbiton was singled out as one of the points for immediate visit and enquiry.

The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gothad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. 19 Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. 20 He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn. 21This quote (which I had forgotten about) also explains how the wights came to be in the barrows... they were sent there by the Witch-king.

[Galadhwen]

Is the Witch King called Angmar? I thought he was the Witch King of Angmar but in the Atlas of Middle Earth he is definitely called Angmar any thoughts?
:confused:

[Grond]

He is never called Angmar in any of the works that I know of. He is referred to as the Witch-king of Angmar or the Lord of the Ring-wraiths for the most part.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thanks for the quote Grond! Wow! I didn't even know stuff like that existed. I must read that stuff soon or go insane!

[Galadhwen]

That's what I thought, just wanted to check, cheers Grond!:D
LOL

[aragil]

Just out of curiousity, what is the rationale the Nazgul use for not attacking the inn themselves? As Grond is posting from UT, he can tell us the bit where the Nine get the message from Sauron- he's not happy with their progress in the Ring hunt. Given this directive from their boss, why would the Nazgul use human proxies to search out the ring? Would the Nine consider Ferny to be somehow superior to them in his ability to secure the ring? Or did they simply detest the thought of getting Hobbit blood on their gorgeous black robes? I had no idea the Nazgul were so humble and squeemish!

[Nenya Evenstar]

The only answer I can give to that is the refer you to the Fellowship of the Ring:
"No, I think not," said Strider. "They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people-not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us.

[aragil]

But this is Aragorn's theory, and as I stated back on page one I think Aragorn is perfectly capable of making a mistake (unless he is in fact Eru). Minas Tirith did not have to fall, there was no need to eliminate Rohan, no need to fight at all in Lorien, Mirkwood, or Erebor- not if Sauron regained the One Ring. This was quite simply the most important task for all of evildom, and 'The Quest for the Ring' in UT makes it very clear that Sauron had given this task to the Nazgul. Now, given all that, why would the Nazgul turn around and put Ferny in charge? I just don't buy the "they won't attack a house with many lights and people" tack- these are the chief servants of Sauron, and they didn't hesitate to attack Minas Tirith, where there were even more lights and people then there were at the Pony. Also remember, the nine hadn't been seen abroad in Erebor in a long while, and Strider had only very recently gotten news of them from Gildor. As I said before, even Aragorn was capable of making mistakes.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, my resources are out! And since I have not read UT I cannot say anything about that.... The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the Ringwraiths did not attack because they new they had "all the long leagues of Eriador" before them in which they could pursue Frodo with ease. After all, they were not expecting Aragorn to join with the hobbits, so they would have naturally thought that they would have easy prey. If Aragorn had not been with the hobbits then the hobbits would have been stopped by the Ringwraiths very quickly.

[DGoeij]

At Minas Tirith I cannot remember the Nazgul as being part of the troops that actually storm the walls, or even engage in any open battle. They pursue fleeing troops, drive their own forces forward, all that using fear as their weapon. Only when the first ring is deserted and the gate broken, the chief Nazgul rides into the city. Then, before he attacks Gandalf, the Rohirrim appear and the besieged gain new hope, he retreats. When Theoden is attacked, that too happens when there is a pause in the battle, and Theoden stands alone. Even then the Nazgul does not dismount to kill Theoden, not until his beast is slain.
From Gandalf we know the Nazgul prefer to act when all nine are present. That's why he draws off four of them at Amon Sul, so only five remain for an attack. Even then, they are scared away by Frodo's elvish and Aragorn's torches, and the fact that they have wounded the Ringbearer. Even when the group is alone, in the dark and far away from any help they do not press their assault. It seems they thrive on fear in the hearts of their enemies, but when the fear is gone, they are almost worthless.
All this combined, I think Aragorn's assesment is right. The Ringwraights wouldn't attack a lighted and closed inn. They hardly use any force, just fear, and strike swift. Trashing the place up just doesn't fit in that picture also. What does fit in the picture are the gatekeeper, Ferny and the Southroner (and maybe some more), sneaking into the inn, stabbing the pillows and then trashing the place out of frustration. And in the proces they steal the horses and ponies present, to gain something for themselves.

But still, it's just my two cents.;)

[Leto]

I think, overall, the ringwraiths aren't as 'powerful' as everyone gives them credit for. They are definately the most fearsome, that is their great power...their presence creates a shadow of terror over all living things. But their physical power apparently isn't so great, especially when they are not all together, and are far from the direct sight and will of their master. He sent them because they are his most trusted...they have no will but to do his bidding...no others could be trusted with such a mission. They cannot 'see' in the light, in the living world...the same way it describes Frodo and Sam's vision blurred and dulled when they wear the ring. They can sense the ring when it is being used, but apparently not when it is not being used. Even Sauron can't see it or sense it when it is not being used, especially when his will is bent on controlling other things...(his armies, and the palantir). The Witch King must certainly have been the most powerful. He was the one who stabbed Frodo, he was the one to lead the others into the ford, he was the one who led the armies. The others stayed high above the battle on their flying mounts, spreading their fear. Apparently their power is not in physical combat (or else the assault on Gondor and the battle of the Morannon might have been much more terrible).
We assume Aragorn knows a thing or two about these things, as we learn later on in the story, he has been around for quite some time. His guess that the ringwraiths would not openly attack the inn was probably right.
We give the nazgul too much credit, basing our opinion of them on movies, rather then their behavior in the book. In the book, we only see one of them ever taking any sort of 'action', that's the Witch King. The others follow, and spread their fear. And so far away from his master, with orders to stay 'undecover', the Witch King definately would have hesitated to reveal himself until his victim was alone in the night (on weathertop). Sauron didn't really want to let his enemies know what he was doing...but the mission was so important he had to sacrifice some secrecy to speed and trustworthiness. Still, the Nazgul were trying to stay as covert as possible. They only threw it all to the wind, at the last, when the ring was about to pass beyond their reach, over the ford.

[aragil]

Originally posted by Leto
He sent them because they are his most trusted...they have no will but to do his bidding...no others could be trusted with such a mission.

Thank you Leto. I take it that 'no others' can be extended to Ferny. I'm still not sure what everybody is saying here. Do people think that the attack on the inn was intended to fail, or that it was carried out by Ferny et al without the instigation of the Ringwraiths. My argument is that there is no way the Ringwraiths would have asked Ferny to go in to get the Ring. Why? Because as Leto just stressed for me, their master couldn't trust anyone else with the task, and they were slaves to his will, erego they wouldn't trust the task to anyone else, either. If the Wraiths were relying on all the wide leagues of Eriador, then why have the Inn attacked at all? Why bother to put your trust in men which you hardly know, such as Ferny? As was once pointed out in an alternate reality, this was not an open assault on the Inn- nobody saw the attackers. I see absolutely no evidence outside Aragorn's considerable opinion that the Nazgul wouldn't have snuck into the Inn to kill a few Hobbits in order to secure their master's Ring. This is not to be compared with a frontal assault on Minas Tirith (although Dgoeij, I know you know that it was the Witch King himself that lead the assault on the gates- the thickest fighting in the whole battle). This is much more similar to the sneak attack on the house at Crickhallow, which occurs only a few pages before the attack at the Pony, and was demonstrably carried out by Ringwraiths (less than nine and without their leader). The ones at Crickhallow weren't even all that fussy about killing a couple Hobbits, as we're told that they ride down the Hobbit guards at the gates. Besides this, there is the corroborating evidence that I believe others have posted on this thread- Frodo wakes up in the night after feeling a presence, and in the morning Barliman complains about how uneasy the animals have all been. If this isn't the calling card of the Nazgul, then I guess as Leto says, I've been paying too much attention to some movie, and not enough to the books.

[Aslan]

In all the times I've read the book, I have pictured the wraiths, and no one else, as the ones who tore up the room. This could be one of those parts where JRRT wanted some imagining to go on.:D

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by aragil
Thank you Leto. I take it that 'no others' can be extended to Ferny. I'm still not sure what everybody is saying here. Do people think that the attack on the inn was intended to fail, or that it was carried out by Ferny et al without the instigation of the Ringwraiths. My argument is that there is no way the Ringwraiths would have asked Ferny to go in to get the Ring. (...)
This is not to be compared with a frontal assault on Minas Tirith (although Dgoeij, I know you know that it was the Witch King himself that lead the assault on the gates- the thickest fighting in the whole battle). This is much more similar to the sneak attack on the house at Crickhallow, which occurs only a few pages before the attack at the Pony, and was demonstrably carried out by Ringwraiths (less than nine and without their leader). (..)

I wonder if the Wraights ever asked Ferny to get the Ring. You are completely right that that information was too 'classified'. Maybe what the nazgul really wanted was the ponies and horses to be gone. Without them, the miles to Eriador would be even more longer. I wonder if Ferny and his goons were a little too enthousiastic, and raided the bedroom too. They must have figured the travellers were of some importance to the Dark Lord.
The raid at Crickhollow (which is very clearly carried out by the Nazgul, I agree on that) is very different from the Prancing Pony IMHO. It was a small house, standing alone, with one scared Hobbit inside. And the Wraigths immediately fled when the alarm was sounded, the guards they killed on their way out.
I am aware that the chief Nazgul was there at the Siege of Minas Tirith. Behind his troops, driving them forward, until Grond was brought before the gate and the defenders driven off. And when the sky cleared up and the Rohirrim showed up, he retreated. Fear is their weapon, and apparently Hope the antidode.

[Grond]

Just a little side note.... from the description given in UT.... I think that the Southerner would have done any bidding the Nagul instructed him to do. Had they told him to retrieve a Ring from a Hobbit, he would have gone fortwith and tried to follow their instructions. from Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring
He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn.

[aragil]

Come on Grond, you're being selective. Where's the quote about the tongue-lashing the Ringwraiths got because Sauron was upset with their progress?
Dgoeij- if the argument is that Bill et al were acting on thier own initiative, then that is very hard to argue against, although it is not exactly the theory of Strider. As far as Crickhollow vs. Pony, I'd say the one case was 3 Nazgul vs. 1 Hobbit, while the other could have been 6 Nazgul (inluding the Witch King) vs. 4 Hobbits. Remember, the windows were forced, meaning that whoever attacked did not openly attack the Inn, but rather did a sneak attack where they thought they would only encounter a few (scared) Hobbits. In fact, while I'm asking Grond to quote things from the 'Hunt for the Ring' out of UT, perhaps he could print the bit where the Nazgul overcome the Dunedain guard at the South Farthing. Numbers are sketchy, but their are enough Dunedain to run in several different directions, along with those who are actually slain. I think it's fairly safe to assume that whatever resistance these Dunedain put up, it was greater than what could be expected from the four hobbits at the Pony (at least the Wraiths probably would have assumed so). Also, Aragorn never got wind of the Nazgul attacking his men (as far as I can tell)- perhaps he would have changed his mind about the likelihood of the Nazgul attacking the Inn if he had been privy to this little gem.

So here's my evidence that it could have been the Nazgul:

1) Attack is not an open assault on the inn, but rather a selected secret assault on a single room, through the windows.
2) Frodo wakes up in the night, after feeling a 'presence'
3) In the morning Barliman says that guests were unable to sleep in their beds
4) Tolkien himself says that the missing horses were later found, and it seemed that they had only been driven off a short distance or else had fled in terror
5) The Nazgul had already openly attacked several (>4) Dunedain guarding the Shire
6) Some of the Nazgul thought that the Ring was in the house in Crickhollow, and rather than sending someone else in to get it, they went themselves.
7) Abe Lincoln oncce said that one Hobbit in a room in the Pony is worth four Hobbits somewhere in the long leagues of Eriador
8) The Nazgul had been recently given a withering message by Sauron, one so intimidating that even the Witch King was afraid. Given this directive, the Nazgul were unlikely to rely on anyone else to come near the Ring, no matter how trustworthy they thought the individual.

I'll just point out that #s 2,3,4 practically scream Nazgul, and that #s 5,6,7 were vital information of which Aragorn was unaware. Even still, his assessment is qualified:
"No, I think not," said Strider. "They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people-not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us.
Aragorn freely admits that his assessment is just his opinion, therefore subject to being wrong. Also, he has no idea how desperate the Nazgul are at this point.

[Parrot]

posted by Aragil
7) Abe Lincoln oncce said that one Hobbit in a room in the Pony is worth four Hobbits somewhere in the long leagues of Eriador
:) - Good to see you back!

[Nenya Evenstar]

I would like just to point out that perhaps the mysterious "presence" which caused fear for so many of the people in the inn and woke Frodo up out of his sleep does not necessarily mean that the Wraiths were attacking the room. I have no doubt that they were there in the near vicinity during the attack on the inn. So perhaps they were there driving their little friends to the dirty work but not taking part in it except for their presence. This would support Aragorn's assumption as well.

The main problem that I have with it being the Ringwraiths is the fact that Aragorn's quote is the only evidence that we are ever given as to who it was that actually attacked the inn. Did Tolkien just put it in there for the heck of it? Or did he put it in there to directly give his audience some reason to believe that it was the Southerner and his friends?

[aragil]

Whoo-hoo! All 3 Montanans posting in a row! However, as sr. member of the forum I'm going to have to ask Nenya to tow the party line on this one- it was the Wraiths.
There's two ways to go about answering your question Nenya- one way is with evidence in the story, the other is for looking at how the story is written. If we stay in the story, then there is no recourse to such things as 'why would JRRT have had Aragorn say that'. If this is how we examine the problem, then we must simply regard Aragorn as (a very knowledgeable) source, which may or may not be supplying good information.
If we take the alternate tac, and ask why JRRT wrote it that way, then we enter very muddy waters. When JRRT first wrote this part of the story, both Ferny and Strider (Trotter) were Hobbits, I don't think the Southerner existed (can't remember), and JRRT himself had no clear idea who the black riders were. The black riders themselves were not always intended to be the ringwraiths- Frodo's (Bingo's) first encounter with them back in the Shire was originally written as an encounter with Gandalf, complete with the sniffing! That JRRT could have originally intended Strider to be correct, and then later changed his mind as he fleshed out who exactly the Nazgul were is not out of the realm of possibility. The answer is: we'll never know. Of that, at least, I'm pretty sure.

originally posted by Parrot
:) - Good to see you back!
Don't get too used to it- I have to leave again on Friday (pouty face).

[Nenya Evenstar]

Go Montanans!!!!! :D Alright, so maybe I don't have enough information to back up that it wasn't the Ringwraiths... but then neither do you have enough proof to back up that it wasn't the Breelanders and the Southron. So, I will just have to agree with your statement that we will never know. Thank you very much for all your insight and input, Aragil, senior member from Montana! ;) I learned a lot from it, and thank you for contributing.

[aragil]

My pleasure. And I should say that I don't think that it's definite either way- but I definitely do think there was a possibility it was the Ringwraiths, in spite of what Aragorn says. Evidence on both sides, so to speak. In other threads I've argued hard about the abilities of the Ringwraiths and how combat was not necessarily their forte, using much the same language as my fellow Periaur Dgoeij did here. I just think that in this case the Nazgul would have been a bit more driven to get the Ring themselves.

[Nenya Evenstar]

And I should say that you have convinced me that it could have been the Ringwraiths. And that is a feat after how adamant I was a little while ago that it couldn't have been them. ;) So, the final verdict: It could have been either the Ringwraiths or some wretches driven by them to do some evil work who broke into the Prancing Pony.

[aragil]

I'll drink to that. Parrot can bring the Moose Drool.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by aragil
So here's my evidence that it could have been the Nazgul:

1) Attack is not an open assault on the inn, but rather a selected secret assault on a single room, through the windows.
2) Frodo wakes up in the night, after feeling a 'presence'
3) In the morning Barliman says that guests were unable to sleep in their beds
4) Tolkien himself says that the missing horses were later found, and it seemed that they had only been driven off a short distance or else had fled in terror
5) The Nazgul had already openly attacked several (>4) Dunedain guarding the Shire
6) Some of the Nazgul thought that the Ring was in the house in Crickhollow, and rather than sending someone else in to get it, they went themselves.
7) Abe Lincoln oncce said that one Hobbit in a room in the Pony is worth four Hobbits somewhere in the long leagues of Eriador
8) The Nazgul had been recently given a withering message by Sauron, one so intimidating that even the Witch King was afraid. Given this directive, the Nazgul were unlikely to rely on anyone else to come near the Ring, no matter how trustworthy they thought the individual.


Your reasoning is sound, and I agree that it could have been the Nazgul. My reasoning about Ferny and Co was simply speculation. I should be reading the these parts in the UT you mention, because I own the darn thing myself. Its exact location is causing me some trouble at the moment. :rolleyes:
If the Nazgul were indeed so eager/motivated/driven, and were capable of driving off a number of Rangers, I wonder why they didn't raid the entire inn while they were at it? Again speculation, I agree they relied more on terror than on combat. I somehow feel that it wasn't Nazgul-style to trash the bedroom and I really like going over all available information in cases like this.:)
I don't get the one about Lincoln, but I would like to.:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

I'll drink to that. Parrot can bring the Moose Drool.

:p That was good! And perhaps we can serenade you under the stars (wintery stars at the moment) next to the sagebrush and cows? And perhaps we can add a couple Grizzlies?

And I'm still waiting to see what you have to say to DGoeij. ;)

[Parrot]

Mmmmmmm.......Moose Drool........
sayeth the great Philosopher Homer
"To alcohol! The cause of - and solution to - all of life's problems!"
Careful, Nenya; "Grizzlies" is a dirty word in Aragil's neck of the woods.

[Grond]

A close friend of mine was in Montana last year and bought me a case of home-grown Montanan Moose Drool Beer. I drank one bottle and used the rest to take the rust off my lawn tractor which had rusted over during the rainy season. :);):D

[Parrot]

Grond, I think that all that Cajun shine has killed your taste-buds; didn't I warn you about that stuff?

[Galadhwen]

Aragorn put that brown mat thing on Frodo's bed to look like his head- Ringwraiths are blind practically- did he do this knowing someone like Ferney was going into the room?
Why did the Nazgul attack Cricklehollow if don't like buildings with lights etc.
What was a ringwraith talking to (Ferney) about when Merry saw them?
Why did the Ringwraiths keep talking to people?! Hamfast, Ferney...
:confused: Too many contradictions!

[aragil]

Originally posted by Grond
A close friend of mine was in Montana last year and bought me a case of home-grown Montanan Moose Drool Beer. I drank one bottle and used the rest to take the rust off my lawn tractor which had rusted over during the rainy season. :);):D

I don't even know to respond to this. Moose Drool is clearly the modern day equivalent of the ancient Greek's "nectar of the gods". Like Parrot says, anybody who sees this differently has clearly been going a little too heavy on the Kai-yen peppa.

Nenya- Grizzlies? RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Galadhwen- I suspect that much of the inconsistency regarding the Nazgul stems from the fact that JRRT did not have a clear feeling for who they were when he originally wrote the story up till Rivendell. Later on, when he 'realized' that the Black Riders were in fact the Kings of Men whom Sauron had enslaved with Rings of Power back in the second age, Tolkien did not go back and completely re-write the opening bit. Because of this we have one Nazgul battering down the gates of Minas Tirith late in the story, and another Nazgul coming within a few feet of Frodo earlier in the story and then just wondering off (No wonder Sauron was mad at them).

Dgoeij- read UT (whenever you find it), it has some fantastic stories, with the 'Hunt for the Ring' just being one of them. I think we agree that there is no true answer here, but that shouldn't stop us from making up our own minds as to who did it.
Abe Lincoln was one of our first presidents to be celebrated for a truly 'modest' (i.e. poor) upbringing. One manifestation of this was a series of common sense sayings he'd used to spout, one of the most famous being "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". I thought this fit in well with the Nazgul thread, so I threw it in.

[Grond]

Originally posted by aragil
...One manifestation of this was a series of common sense sayings he'd used to spout, one of the most famous being "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". I thought this fit in well with the Nazgul thread, so I threw it in. Yea Aragil... but how many times did the Nazgul have those Hobbits, err, ummm I mean birds in their hands???? and yet they always (and I mean always) came away empty-handed. LOL ;)

[Nenya Evenstar]

To my fellow Montanans: Grizzlies? Yes, grizzlies! :p I haven't run into any myself yet, though I've been semi-around them for years. And I also haven't tried any of that Moose Drool. ;)

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by aragil
Dgoeij- read UT (whenever you find it), it has some fantastic stories, with the 'Hunt for the Ring' just being one of them. I think we agree that there is no true answer here, but that shouldn't stop us from making up our own minds as to who did it.
Abe Lincoln was one of our first presidents to be celebrated for a truly 'modest' (i.e. poor) upbringing. One manifestation of this was a series of common sense sayings he'd used to spout, one of the most famous being "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". I thought this fit in well with the Nazgul thread, so I threw it in.

I've read parts of the UT, about the Istari and the Disaster of the Gladden Fields for instance. Indeed very interesting and great fun. I'm pretty sure it's in that pile underneath my desk, the one where I lost my Battleship model (scale 1:1).:rolleyes:
The 'whodunnit' question doesn't need to be answered IMHO, as long as I enjoy going over all the details. I thank you for disagreeing with me.:D And also thanks for the explanation on Lincoln's saying. We have one here that is rather similar, although we talk about 'ten in the air'.:) I knew he was from a rather 'common' background, but never heard of these famous remarks.

[joxy]

Originally posted by DGoeij
And also thanks for the explanation on Lincoln's saying.
People were saying that a bird in the hand is worth two in a bush for centuries before Lincoln's time, and are still saying it 150 years after his time. He isn't exactly renowned for saying it: there's one a bit more famous isnt there? - something to do with four score and seven years ago?! :-)

[Parrot]

Dissin' my homey Aragil? Man that "Ticks Me Off!" :mad: :mad:

(Joxy, to clear up any confusion, "Dissin' " is Americanalizationistic-coloquialismistical slangualism that means, liberally or figuratively, to simplicitly "disrespectinate" on someone)

added in edit: before anyone even says it, I know "coloquialismistical" is actually spelled with four l's, nobody's purfect.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Parrot
Dissin' my homey Aragil? Man that "Ticks Me Off!" :mad: :mad:

(Joxy, to clear up any confusion, "Dissin' " is Americanalizationistic-coloquialismistical slangualism that means, liberally or figuratively, to simplicitly "disrespectinate" on someone)

added in edit: before anyone even says it, I know "coloquialismistical" is actually spelled with four l's, nobody's purfect.

LOL!!! ;)

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by joxy
People were saying that a bird in the hand is worth two in a bush for centuries before Lincoln's time, and are still saying it 150 years after his time. He isn't exactly renowned for saying it: there's one a bit more famous isnt there? - something to do with four score and seven years ago?! :-)

I understand it isn't Lincoln who invented it. :rolleyes: But sometimes it takes a president to make something famous. How many men haven't said, before: "I did not have sex with that woman!", and will be saying it until the end of times?:D

[joxy]

Originally posted by DGoeij
But sometimes it takes a president to make something famous.
How many men haven't said, before: "I did not have sex with that woman!", and will be saying it until the end of times?
I've learnt something then?! In the US Abe is famous for talking about birds with wings, and Bill for talking about birds with ****s?
And the expressions are irretrievably linked to them? News to me..

[joxy]

Originally posted by Parrot
(Joxy, to clear up any confusion, "Dissin' " is Americanalizationistic-coloquialismistical slangualism that means, liberally or figuratively, to simplicitly "disrespectinate" on someone)
Hey thanks, but I knew already; Marshall Mathers told me.