View Full Version : Aragorn and Frodo - does it make sense?
Snaga
03-04-2002, 09:06 AM
Frodo and Aragorn at the end of the film: just after Boromir has tried to take the ring. I just can't make this scene work. This is the script (probably a transcript I think):<Frodo, in the "shadow world," climbs up onto the Seat of Seeing atop Amon Hen. He looks over the stone seat and sees the Dark Tower from afar. The image rushes towards him and his vision rise to its pinnacle—where the burning Eye of Sauron stares back menacingly. Frodo, rushing to remove the ring, falls off the Seat of Seeing and lands on his back. He sits up, trying to catch his breath>
<Aragorn approaches>
Aragorn: Frodo?
Frodo: <startled> Huh?! It has taken Boromir.
Aragorn: <intensely> Where is the ring?
Frodo: Stay away!
<Frodo runs from Aragorn>
Aragorn: Frodo!
<Frodo stops>
Aragorn: I swore to protect you!
Frodo: Can you protect me from yourself?
<Shows the ring on his palm>
Frodo: Would you destroy it?
<Aragorn, looking at the ring, slowly approaches Frodo. The ring begins to whisper>
The Ring: Aragorn...Aragorn…Elessar...
<He reaches out. With both hands, Aragorn closes Frodo’s hand over the ring and pushes it away>
Aragorn: I would have gone with you to the end, into the very fires of Mordor.
Frodo: I know. Look after the others, especially Sam. He will not understand.
<Aragorn sees Sting’s blue glow. He stands suddenly>
Aragorn: Go on Frodo. <draws out his sword> Run. Run!
<Frodo leaves. Aragorn walks out from beneath the Seat of Seeing and finds a troop of Uruk-Hai>
How does Aragorn know Frodo is leaving?
Harad
03-04-2002, 09:14 AM
<Frodo runs from Aragorn>
thats a non-verbal way of saying, "bub-bye"
Snaga
03-04-2002, 02:37 PM
Ok, at the very least this scene is rushed and confused.
This is a pivotal moment, where Frodo decides to head east. Aragorn is supposed to be protecting and helping him lets him go with scarcely any discussion.
And whats that 'Where is the ring?' line for? Why would he say that?
Even that 'It has taken Boromir' line from Frodo is oblique to say the least.
Am I the only one who really has a problem with this scene? I hope it is expanded in the DVD, because as it stands its I just don't buy it.
Yes, I always thought it was very rushed with confused motives. That "where is the Ring" line is just to make the audience wonder/think that Aragorn is also tempted by the Ring even though there was almost no indication of that throughout ("the same blood runs in my veins, the same weakness" being the only potential indication). It's a pretty weak afterthought. To have made that work, Aragorn should've had some other signs of temptation before. The scene probably would've worked if right after Aragorn closed his hand, Frodo had said something like "It will take them all, one by one. I must do this alone" (kind of repeating Galadriel)(also it would contrast his "I cannot do this alone"). Then Aragorn could've continued with "I would've gone with you..."
Tar-Palantir
03-04-2002, 05:43 PM
I can see where there may be some confusion as to how Aragorn knew that Frodo wanted to go alone. I think PRH's suggestion for one more line of dialogue would clear things up.
I guess PJ thought Frodo and Aragorn were saying it with their eyes or something. How do you say something so specific that has never even been suggested with your eyes? It would've possibly worked if the 'going alone' move had been foreshadowed or suggested before in some way but it was totally out of the blue. Okay, Galadriel does say "to be a ringbearer is to be alone" but everyone thinks she means that in a spiritual/emotional sense, not literally physically alone!
bunnywhippit
03-04-2002, 06:45 PM
I've been confused about this as well. But when i saw the film last time i managed to make it work (i also think that extra line of dialogue being mentioned would probably come in handy)
And whats that 'Where is the ring?' line for? Why would he say that?
Even that 'It has taken Boromir' line from Frodo is oblique to say the least.
I don't see it as Aragorn being tempted by the ring by asking where it is. Rather, Frodo says "it has taken Boromir" obviously referring to the Ring, and then Aragorn asks where it is - maybe he thinks Boromir has managed to take it. But Aragorn asking that question does have elements of the temptation theory, i can see that. But i prefer to go with the Boromir-Taken-It idea. That's how i see it anyway.
As for the original question - How does Aragorn know Frodo is leaving? - an unspoken understanding? That's how it comes across. It is a little weak, but i don't think much would be done for the dramatic tension if they'd sat down and had a big discussion about it. ;)
"thats a non-verbal way of saying, "bub-bye"
LMAO! Very good Harad.
I thought this was one of the most powerful scenes in the whole film.
Frodo doesn't need to tell Aragorn what he is thinking. Aragorn already knows it. That is why there is the apparent absence of dialogue that you guys are complaining about.
Go back to the book. Apart from Gandalf, who are the TWO most interesting and important characters? It has to be Frodo and Aragorn. Frodo because he is the Ringbearer, and Aragorn because his destiny is tied up with the quest.
I always felt that there WAS such an understanding between Frodo and Aragorn. Aragorn is strong and brave, but he is also fundamentally noble. He WOULD understand how Frodo feels.
The more I think about this, the more I really like the treatment of the film. Frodo HAD been feeling for a while that he had to leave the company (that is made plain in the book). Aragorn WOULD have sensed this. How noble and wise it was of Aragorn to be able to resist the temptation of the ring, to go on to his own unsure destiny, and yet let Frodo go on to his.
Snaga
03-05-2002, 12:55 AM
Well, I certainly take on board the dramatic tension points. But I think you could have done something. For example Frodo could rush off towards the boats, and Aragorn could walk along side trying to reason with him, end the sequence with orcs appearing perhaps...
'It has taken Boromir' ... no surprise, shock or anger ... just
'Where is the ring' ... in an intimidating way. Why ask that? Not 'is it safe', or 'are you alright' or similar ...
'Stay away' & runs off ... not surprised! ...
'Frodo, I swore to protect you' ... that's OK too
'Can you protect me from yourself?' ... cool
Shows him the ring ... I don't think so. If you're worried, you don't offer it up!
'Would you destroy it?' ... a bit iffy, but I'll allow it!
Aragorn approach, whispering, closes palm ... OK
I would have gone with you to the end, into the very fires of Mordor.
... No no no!
He's just said: I've worked out you want to go to Mordor on your own, and I'm not going to question that decision at all. He has no other quest: he's not going to Minas Tirith, or claiming the kingship at this point remember.
Surely even if you accept that Aragorn is intuitive enough to get what Frodo is thinking (I can buy that), he would not let him rush off on his own without any discussion/ rangerly advice or whatever? I'm not saying he wouldn't let him go at all, just that he would be a bit less rash.
Luckily the Uruk-Hai turn up just at that moment to smooth over this preposterous behaviour!
Well, maybe it isn't a question of just letting Frodo run off without any discussion.
What evidence have you (in the book) that if Aragorn HAD have known in time of Frodo's intentions he would have tried to stop him? I don't actually think he would have done. He was wiser than that.
Tolkien once said re a possible Disney movie (ugh!) that he didn't mind them changing the plot so much as them changing the nature of the characters. I think Aragorn's character is pretty good in this film.
Snaga
03-05-2002, 01:41 AM
You misunderstand me perhaps. There are two areas to clarify.
Firstly I don't think Aragorn would try to stop him, but he would want to ensure that he was well-prepared, and I think he would want 1 or 2 companions to go with him. This would need discussion. In the book, they had set aside an hour for Frodo to think about what to do, and then he was to come back and they would have that discussion. Boromir and the Uruk-Hai between them stop that calm consideration: Aragorn never gets to talk to Frodo.
Secondly I'm not doing one of those 'the film aint like the book, so I hate it forever' rants. I love the film!:)
Aragorn in the film is generally very similar in character, although there is a big difference in his attitude to the kingship. But in both cases at Bree he stresses the value of knowing the seriousness of your enemy and predicament and acting carefully as a result. At this moment in the film, I think he deviates from this unaccountably.
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
He's just said: I've worked out you want to go to Mordor on your own, and I'm not going to question that decision at all. He has no other quest: he's not going to Minas Tirith, or claiming the kingship at this point remember.
Wow - I never thought of this! Yeah, in the book they were trying to decide whether to even press on toward Mordor from Parth Galen but in the movie, that wasn't even up for debate so it makes even less sense for Aragorn to let Frodo go on alone (M&P were of course not a concern at this point), especially given the lack of Aragorn's temptation for the Ring shown up to that point.
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Surely even if you accept that Aragorn is intuitive enough to get what Frodo is thinking (I can buy that), he would not let him rush off on his own without any discussion/ rangerly advice or whatever? I'm not saying he wouldn't let him go at all, just that he would be a bit less rash.
Well, if it weren't for the orcs - who knows how soon Frodo would've gone on alone. They probably would've discussed things for several minutes.
Originally posted by Ged
The more I think about this, the more I really like the treatment of the film. Frodo HAD been feeling for a while that he had to leave the company (that is made plain in the book). Aragorn WOULD have sensed this.
Ged, that's fine that maybe Aragorn and Frodo were on the same wavelength but the big problem is that the movie didn't show that Frodo was even considering going it alone before his decision to do just that. It was only vaguely alluded to with Galadriel, which really wasn't enough to have it all hold together.
I guess when it comes down to it, you have to tie this Amon Hen parting scene closely together with the end of the mirror scene if you want the motivations to make sense.
Harad
03-05-2002, 05:21 AM
I guess when it comes down to it, you have to tie this Amon Hen parting scene closely together with the end of the mirror scene if you want the motivations to make sense.
There's no question that the movie juxtaposed those two scenes for the "go it alone" scenario. Aragorn knew this intuitively even if he did not get verbal cues from either Galadriel or Frodo.
Furthermore the movie makes a BIG DEAL of the tendency of Men toward failing with the Ring.
Frodo has just barely escaped from Boromir, so the idea that Aragorn would be sensitive to his fear of any Man companion is perfectly reasonable.
I'm trying to remember if, in the film, when F and A meet on Amon Hen, Frodo actually tells Aragorn that he is leaving. Aragorn says "I would have gone with you to the end", but was that preceded by any other relevant dialogue? My recollection is that it wasn't, so Aragorn essentially has second guessed what Frodo's intentions are. (Or he has been warned by Galadriel, who he has been close to for many years.)
VOK: didn't mean to make you into a film hater!
Regarding whether Aragorn would have tried to persuade Frodo to take along extra companions, well he didn't get the chance. As soon as the "I would have gone with you" scene ends the Uruk-hai appear. So Aragorn wasn't exactly "rash". Events unfolded very quickly (just like in the book).
PRH: I agree the film doesn't make clear where the fellowship are headed. But it isn't exactly outlined in the book either. There is a general theme - get to Mordor and destroy the ring - in both book and film, but in neither is it discussed in detail HOW they would get there. My own feeling from the book was always that Aragorn yearned to go to Minas Tirith.
Snaga
03-05-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Ged
I'm trying to remember if, in the film, when F and A meet on Amon Hen, Frodo actually tells Aragorn that he is leaving. Aragorn says "I would have gone with you to the end", but was that preceded by any other relevant dialogue? My recollection is that it wasn't, so Aragorn essentially has second guessed what Frodo's intentions are. (Or he has been warned by Galadriel, who he has been close to for many years.)
Ged - check out the transcript I posted to start the thread. Its not stated directly.
Originally posted by Ged
PRH: I agree the film doesn't make clear where the fellowship are headed. But it isn't exactly outlined in the book either. There is a general theme - get to Mordor and destroy the ring - in both book and film, but in neither is it discussed in detail HOW they would get there. My own feeling from the book was always that Aragorn yearned to go to Minas Tirith. The point with this is that in the book although the path to Mordor is unclear, Aragorn and Boromir set out to go Minas Tirith. Aragorn then has a problem when Gandalf is got at in Moria - he's leading the quest but destined for Minas Tirith and the kingship. That's a dilemma.
In the film, Aragorn has 'chosen exile' and is not going to Minas Tirith at all. And in the preceding scene to Boromir trying to take the ring, Aragorn talks about crossing the river as soon as they have rested, and then heading east. (You may recall Gimli goes off on one about the Emyn Muil, and the marshes and Aragorn tells him to recover his strength!) There is no dilemma.
And that's why I'm not happy with his sudden volte-face from being the whole company eastwards, to letting Frodo go alone. He suddenly abandons the quest, and he has no other plans. Its totally illogical. IMVHO of course!:)
Harad
03-05-2002, 06:04 PM
Its not illogical.
Two things happen to cause the "about face."
1. Boromir goes ballistic.
2. The Orcs attack.
Aragorn's "chosen exile" in the movie is little different than the book. In the book Aragorn has done a tour of duty in Gondor, incognito, but does not chose to make a claim on the kingship until after the successful conclusion of the War of the Ring, 40 years later. Had there been no War of the Ring in his lifetime, I dont believe he would have attempted to horn in on the stable government of Gondor.
Originally posted by Harad
Two things happen to cause the "about face."
2. The Orcs attack.
Not until after the decision was made.
Snaga
03-05-2002, 10:36 PM
PRH - I agree.
Which just leaves 'It has taken Boromir' as the single thing that makes Aragorn think 'Ah well obviously that means the rest of us can just go home.' Not 'lets sort out that no-good Boromir' or even 'OK lets get rid of anyone we can't trust'; just 'See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya!' Its not a rational reaction.
Aragorn's "chosen exile" in the movie is little different than the book. In the book Aragorn has done a tour of duty in Gondor, incognito, but does not chose to make a claim on the kingship until after the successful conclusion of the War of the Ring, 40 years later. Had there been no War of the Ring in his lifetime, I dont believe he would have attempted to horn in on the stable government of Gondor.The point about Aragorn isn't really that he's chosen exile or not, but that in the film he has no other plan, once he resigns from the quest. Again of course he bailed out by the Uruk-Hai kidnapping M&P - 'Aha, now I've got something to do, although I did rather fancy a pint at the Prancing Pony.'
Harad
03-05-2002, 11:02 PM
Well...no overt plan. But wasnt there some pointed exchanges between Boromir and Aragorn earlier? Boromir thought of Aragorn as a rival. This tells me that Aragorn had thoughts about Minas Tirith.
Secondly the book has some explaining to do for giving Aragorn that easy out. If he has no fixed plan in the movie, its because he says:
"And you have my sword." And he meant it.
Finally, the FINAL decision is made when the Orcs attack. Who know where further discussion would have lead.
Originally posted by Harad
Finally, the FINAL decision is made when the Orcs attack. Who know where further discussion would have lead.
Frodo: I know. Look after the others, especially Sam. He will not understand.
Sounds pretty final to me. Frodo was going off alone, all that's left was some possible words of wisdom to send him on his way (which got interrupted).
Harad
03-05-2002, 11:14 PM
Frodo: I know. Look after the others, especially Sam. He will not understand.
Aragorn: Gandalf would have gone with you, so it would be best if... (thwank as arrow hits nearby tree)
Snaga
03-05-2002, 11:18 PM
Aragorn: I would have gone with you to the end, into the very fires of Mordor.
Would have... but the fishing's good here. Bye!!
Thrakerzog
03-05-2002, 11:23 PM
VoC,
"Which just leaves 'It has taken Boromir' as the single thing"
Actually there is far more then that in Frodo's reaction.
Frodo has very clearly expressed great concern about it's effects on Aragorn, at first running from him.
Aragorn: <intensely> Where is the ring?
Frodo: Stay away!
<Frodo runs from Aragorn>
Aragorn: Frodo!
Frodo declairs Boromir had fallen to the power and he was ready to bolt when Aragorn found him.
It can be well argued that at this point Frodo has shown Aragorn that he no longer trusts the party, Aragorn included.
Aragorn, being wise, realizes this and restates his loyalty but that Frodo is right, for even now Aragorn hears the ring calling to him.
I mean, it is possible Aragorn was about to say, "don't go, we will protect you", but then he hears the ring calling to him, and he is able to fight off it's power but knows that if he stays with the ring much longer he will falter and try to get the ring for himself. This could be why he so openly supports Frodo going alone.
But all just speculation, I thought the seen was a little "unexplained" myself.
Harad
03-05-2002, 11:30 PM
You also forget about the authoritarian nature of that society. Frodo is the Ring-Bearer. As such he outranks Aragorn in the Quest, be he Chieftain or King-to-be. When Frodo says "C ya" Aragorn should and does salute.
Snaga
03-05-2002, 11:48 PM
Thrakerzog, your explanation makes sense. It is at variance with the intent of PJ & co which was to show that Aragorn was different and could resist temptation. I suppose it still does that, but in a round about way, if Aragorn resists temptation by letting Frodo go while he still can, knowing that sooner or later he will succumb.
Harad, I know you like that Frodo is in charge thang. Ultimately that's true, but I don't think that extends to the zero-discussion command culture you are describing. If you can show me where else Frodo commands and Aragorn salutes (with no debate) I'll be interested.
Harad
03-05-2002, 11:58 PM
What about the Moria decision?
Frodo is more in charge as the Fellowship progresses. His Companions are the shock troops meant to deliver him to the launching point. They are expendable. He is not.
aragil
03-06-2002, 12:19 AM
Uh, Rivendell, we have a problem. We seem to have lost the Ring-bearing-vehicle en route to the Launch Pad. We are currently investigating whether the cloaking device might have been accidentally triggered. Also we're receiving reports of possible sabotage efforts by the USSR (Union of Socialistic Smeagalite Ringbearers).
Of course when you sit back and ponder the sequence of events and the motives it can be rationalized but the real point is that the scene just didn't play well. There was just too much assumed in too quick a time period to make it register correctly. It's also not really consistent with the level of explicitness (in spoken thoughts) the rest of the film had followed.
Harad
03-06-2002, 12:32 AM
When I read the book for the first (and subsequent) times I thought that Aragorn's decision at Parth Galen was poorly motivated. I had (have) no such problem with the movie scene.
Snaga
03-06-2002, 01:08 AM
Moria ends up as 'Make a call, Frodo' but its after a discussion. That's the difference.
I agree with PRH whether it feels right is important. And it bugged me, and still does. Obviously there's less room for discussion around how we each individually felt about it, as opposed to trying to rationalise it. I think you can rationalise it, but it feels like you're reaching.
Harad
03-06-2002, 01:15 AM
I feel perfectly contained. Muscles relaxed, seeing the ball. Being the ball. It didnt bother me when I saw it (as opposed to when I read it) and the totality of cues and clues given in the movie seemed about right. You and PRH and...feel differently. If only HLGS knew we were talking about Aragorn...
daisy
03-06-2002, 01:34 AM
well, I could have sworn that Frodo is almost offering the ring to Aragorn here - like teetering on giving in because he is so tired and freaked out by Boromir's attack - and then Aragorn goes toward him and the audience I guess is supposed to wonder whether he is going to take it and he doesn't - but knows that his part in the Fellowship is over.
So this treatment of the scene:
1. Adds suspense for those who have not read the book.
2. Shows Frodo's fragility and goodness.
3. Shows Aragorn's honour.
4. The idea of a destiny beyond accident - if they had simply cut to the orc attack it would not have been clear that the breaking of the fellowship was a destined event.
And Frodo showed leadership at the Council in Rivendell - Aragorn even bowed before him and pledged his life - that seems pretty powerful - Hobbit to me.Frodo is the main concern for everyone on the entire journey - on the mountain when he drops the ring, in Moria when he is speared by the Cave Troll etc. - so by the time we get to the Frodo Aragorn scene it is clear Boromir's betrayal was a big no-no and that the Ring will eventually take them all - isn't this said by Galadriel anyway?
Those of you who are cool with the way it was in the movie, what do you think of the addition of the line something like:
Frodo:"It will take them all, one by one. I must do this alone"
right before Aragorn's "I would've gone with you."
Would that have been spoon feeding us too much? Would it have been too many more words than necessary for the moment? Would it have destroyed some magic of and unspoken understanding between Frodo and Aragorn? Or would it have still been just right?
Harad
03-06-2002, 04:56 AM
I think the lines are not objectionable, but a bit of spoonfeeding.
The Galadriel exchange with Frodo is crucial. If you discount that or miss it, then I can understand some amount of cornfusion.
However, the movie theme of Man being prone to corruption via the Ring is so pounded on that, for me, there was none.
Does cornfusion have something to do with Earendil Columbus?
If PJ was gonna spoon feed anything to us - why oh why was it that stupid "he will try to take the Ring, you know of whom I speak." What, were we actually wondering (even non-readers)? Hmmm...I wonder who she's refering to...probably Sauron - that's it, yeah! Get rid of that line and add Frodo saying he's going alone from Amon-Hen and the film will have less spoon feeding overall.
Harad
03-06-2002, 06:00 AM
But this I will say to you: your Quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true.
Is there REALLY much difference between this from the book and your quote from the movie. Not much IMO. (even it had both?)
Yes. A world of difference. And the quote I gave it made all the worse because Galadriel just gave your quote 5 minutes earlier!
Your quote was great - they should've left it at that. When she was saying it, showing Boromir quailing and Sam's true gaze we got the picture that Boromir was up to no good. She didn't need to beat us down with the "he will try to take the ring" 5 minutes later.
Why do you even equate the two?
Harad
03-06-2002, 06:54 AM
Both quotes are the same giveaway. I agree that they are redundant. The second quote is more pointed but could be (wrongly?) interpreted as Sauron.
Snaga
03-06-2002, 06:48 PM
I think you'd have to be an idiot not to get that its Boromir who is going to take the ring.
IMO that line massively over-signals what is going to happen. In the book, who see Boromir consumed by doubt and peering at Frodo, so there are clues. And I think that's what PJ was attempting without having lots of on-the-Great-River-in-a-boat-gnawing-fingernails that might not have been great visually. But it begs the question, if Galadriel knew, and Frodo knew why didn't they do anything about it?
The other thing PJ is trying to overcome is that they have written out the contention in the company about which way to go. The other book scene that signals Boromir's intent is when he slips up and all but admits he doesn't want the ring destroyed. That could have worked IMO, and I don't see that Galadriel's telepathic message to Frodo is better.
Harad
03-06-2002, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
But it begs the question, if Galadriel knew, and Frodo knew why didn't they do anything about it?
In the book or in the movie or both?
The answer in both is that Boromir had free will and you can't punish someone before the crime. He was an asset to the Fellowship, and it was hoped, he would overcome his "little" problem.
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I think you'd have to be an idiot not to get that its Boromir who is going to take the ring.
Yes, major idiot.
Galadriel may as well have said:
"He will try to take the Ring. You know of whom I speak. I speak of Boromir. You know, that vaguely creepy guy who can't shut up about Gondor? He's got the long hair and goatee..no, that's Aragorn..the other one. Yes, the one with the shield. He will try to take the Ring. Not my Ring, your Ring. When did I say anything about my Ring? He will try to take your Ring. When? Oh, I'm thinking after you leave here, down river a good way, probably when you stop above the falls. No I can't do anything about it. Understand, to be a ringbearer is to have Boromir try to take it."
Snaga
03-06-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Harad
In the book or in the movie or both?
The answer in both is that Boromir had free will and you can't punish someone before the crime. He was an asset to the Fellowship, and it was hoped, he would overcome his "little" problem.
OK so 'natural justice' can't be bent even so save the world? Fair point, although strange coming from someone who argues Aragorn should leave M&P to be killed, in order to help Frodo save the world.
But I beg to differ. Its not the same in both cases. In the book, Galadriel knows Boromir is 'in peril', and Frodo does not. Frodo just suspects Boromir doesn't really want to get rid of the ring.
In the film Galadriel tells Frodo that Boromir will try and take the ring. Different degree of certainty. Does anyone do anything about it? Nah!
Harad
03-06-2002, 09:53 PM
I really don't see the connection between Aragorn's use of free will, and what? killing, imprisoning Boromir because of the suspicions about him. He was the choice of the CoE and had made his views known in both the book and the movie. Galadriel warning is just that: a warning. She was "Wise" but not omniscient. I don't see how Frodo could practically act on that warning by taking action against Boromir.
I also will risk your and PRH scorn, by restating that the "He will try to take it," could refer to Sauron. That also happened at Amon Hen.
In the book Boromir
'To me it seemed exceedingly strange,' said Boromir. `Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose; but almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give. It need not be said that I refused to listen. The Men of Minas Tirith are true to their word.' But what he thought that the Lady had offered him Boromir did not tell.
which I think plays the same notes as the movie.
I just don't see a big difference. Were you really surprised when reading the book, when Boromir went off?
Originally posted by Harad
I also will risk your and PRH scorn, by restating that the "He will try to take it," could refer to Sauron. That also happened at Amon Hen.
To quote Aragorn (I think): "You have my scorn."
There is absolutely no point in Galadriel saying that Sauron will try to take the Ring. It's a complete no-duh!
If I can remember the sequence of statements I believe Galadriel says "He will try to take the Ring. You know of whom I speak. The Fellowship is breaking, it had already begun. One by one it will take them all." How could this possibly imply Sauron when it's in the context of talking about the Fellowship? Absolutely nobody with two brain cells to rub together could fall for that.
PJ had set up some very very nice foreshadowing with Boromir then he blew it all with the "he will try to take the Ring" statement.
Meanwhile, the foreshadowing of Frodo going off alone was so vague, and his decision to leave was played so quickly (with too few words) that PJ botched that 'surprise' too.
A little less in one thread and a little more in the other and both would've played out perfectly.
Harad
03-06-2002, 10:21 PM
If I wanted it to be as dumb as you think it is I would have said,
"Boromir will try to take it, you know."
Youre overly perceptive on this point. As far as Frodo leaving alone, I had no cornfusion on that point.
Scorn is a double-edged sword.
Snaga
03-07-2002, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Harad
If I wanted it to be as dumb as you think it is I would have said,
"Boromir will try to take it, you know."
Youre overly perceptive on this point. As far as Frodo leaving alone, I had no cornfusion on that point.
Scorn is a double-edged sword. I'm sure you would, but PJ managed to be that dumb without naming Boromir. Subtly dumb: only a skilled film-maker can achieve such a combination.
However I prefer the subtle intelligence of the book, where you know Boromir disagrees with the ring going East, but what will he do about it? That's not known. And it interacts with Aragorn's uncertainty about what to do next, and Frodo's desire to protect his companions from danger. (Again, Frodo's protectiveness isn't portrayed - a key aspect of his bravery IMO). There's a big interplay of emotions and desires here, which the film doesn't show.
Perhaps it can't: its a different medium, with different strengths and weaknesses. But in simplifying, it gets to a position which spoon-feeds the plot in one minute, and then skates through key moments in the next.
Harad
03-07-2002, 12:15 AM
And it interacts with Aragorn's uncertainty about what to do next, and Frodo's desire to protect his companions from danger. (Again, Frodo's protectiveness isn't portrayed - a key aspect of his bravery IMO). There's a big interplay of emotions and desires here, which the film doesn't show.
Most of the criticisms of Movie Aragorn are that he is too unsure of himself. Now you have him as too certain. I like his take charge attitude in the initial plan to cross the River-- what Aragorn should have done in the book. He then responds to the turn of events: Boromirs attack and Frodo's resolve to go alone.
Frodo's protectiveness of? Sam? He tell's Aragorn: "take care of the others, especially Sam." The film shows plenty of interplay of emotions and desires: Frodo's resolve and courage, Aragorn's acceptance and sacrifice. The film shows interactions between Frodo & M&P.
You feel spoon-fed and starved. Instead I saw a reasonably consistent buffet.
Snaga
03-07-2002, 12:51 AM
I have him as certain he isn't going to Minas Tirith, and certain that he doesn't want to be king. This means he can be certain that he is going to Mordor with Frodo. Of course his 'take charge' attitude lasts until Frodo tells him he's no longer wanted, at which point he salutes, and prepares for an early bath, because he certainly has nothing else to do.
I'll buy that protectiveness point, but only if you give me a discount. Its not a reason for going it alone, but a concern after the decision is made.
I too enjoyed the sumptuous feast served up by Chef PJ, but the waiter dropped the trifle on the kitchen floor. Corn-fusion for dessert anyone?
Harad
03-07-2002, 12:57 AM
I have him as certain he isn't going to Minas Tirith, and certain that he doesn't want to be king.
And from whence these conclusions? He is struggling over his destiny. He certainly acknowledges being heir to Isildur. He certainly is willing to fight the presumptive ruling heir of Gondor, Boromir, if Boromir gets out of line. He certainly accepts Boromir's dying vow of allegiance.
I dont really know where this has come from? Do you just feel left out in my argument service?
Aragorn in the book has left Gondor behind for 40 years before the Ring is found. I dont see him rushing to be King either.
Originally posted by Harad
And from whence these conclusions?
First, at the Narsil shrine he speaks of doubting himself. Second, at the Council he shushes Legolas who is trying to talk him up. Next, in Lorien when Boromir extols the virtues of Gondor you can see Aragorn really taking it in and it starts to move him. The wheels are turning. Finally, as Boromir dies and speaks of the failure of the race of men Aragorn vows not to let Gondor fall. The death of Boromir plays the largest part in persuading him to this (movie-speaking). The intention to become king is yet to come.
He indeed has nothing else to do.
Harad
03-07-2002, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by VoK
I have him as certain he isn't going to Minas Tirith, and certain that he doesn't want to be king.
Originally posted by PRH
First, at the Narsil shrine he speaks of doubting himself. Second, at the Council he shushes Legolas who is trying to talk him up. Next, in Lorien when Boromir extols the virtues of Gondor you can see Aragorn really taking it in and it starts to move him. The wheels are turning. Finally, as Boromir dies and speaks of the failure of the race of men Aragorn vows not to let Gondor fall. The death of Boromir plays the largest part in persuading him to this (movie-speaking). The intention to become king is yet to come.
There is a disconnect between your (collective) conclusion and your reasons. "Doubting oneself" is not the same as "certain he doesnt want to be king." In the book Aragorn says: "I am Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself," in a self-deprecating way. He shushed Legolas? So? This is supposed to equate with "certain he doesnt want to be king." You are both just whiffing on this one.
The rest of PRH's description is of a man moving towards the kingship, just as in the book.
Mellon
03-07-2002, 11:30 AM
Fascinating thread...
I can't help but suggest that we are again having to address character issues as a result of what seems to be a recurring Tolkein plot motif. In my brief tenure with this fine group, I have seen examples here, in choosing to enter Moria, in questing after Smaug, and in how the ring should enter Mordor.
One interpretation of this motif could be:
"Let's just get moving on this grand adventure, and figure out the tough spots as we go"
But perhaps a better way would be:
"Life is predetermined. We have a manifest destiny, we must pursue it and trust that things will work out accordingly" (Tolkein would seem to prefer we understand things this way, given his explanation in the Silmilrillion.)
As a result of the plot sequence unfolding under this doctrine, we critics find ourselves having to work through believability and character questions, particularly here, where there has been a deviation from events in the book.
Ethically, I do not appreciate a difference between Aragorn allowing Frodo to depart without further counsel in the movie, and the lack of serious discussion and decisionmaking prior to arriving to a severly advanced and remote location (in both book and movie). In the book, the loss of Gandalf is said to have contributed to this quandry. In either case, options have been made severely limited because of postponement.
The characters' behavior near Amon Hen suggests that they are not simply trying to work out the best decision. They are seeking a sign as to where their predetermined path shall be.
Harad
03-07-2002, 03:42 PM
They are seeking a sign as to where their predetermined path shall be.
No free will?
Galadriel says:
'You cannot go home alone,' said the Lady. 'You did not wish to go home without your master before you looked in the Mirror, and yet you knew that evil things might well be happening in the Shire. Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds.'
I do not perceive a "predetermined path" from these words.
Tar-Palantir
03-07-2002, 03:56 PM
Nor do I. As a matter of fact, it seems clear to me that "free will" and "choice" are constant themes running all through Tolkien's works.
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I have him as certain he isn't going to Minas Tirith, and certain that he doesn't want to be king.
I didn't really mean to fully back this statement. I would have said rather that he has no intention to go to Minas Tirith and no intention to become king.
This continues until the conversation with Boromir in Lorien. At that point a spark is ignited in him for the love of Gondor and pride of the race of men. As he kneels over the dying Boromir that spark turns into a vow to aid Gondor. Nothing solid about intending to become king yet.
As far as shushing Legolas - it is significant because it means Aragorn doesn't want to be identified and regarded as Isildur's heir because he has no intention to do anything about it.
Harad
03-07-2002, 05:39 PM
As far as shushing Legolas - it is significant because it means Aragorn doesn't want to be identified and regarded as Isildur's heir because he has no intention to do anything about it.
OR, simply, Aragorn doesnt want someone else tooting his horn, and wisely, does not want the CoE distracted from its purpose of Ring Disposal Planning, by a pointless argument about who has the best claim to rule Gondor.
I believe this explanation is much more in keeping with the Movie Aragorn, and would even have been true for the Book Aragorn.
Originally posted by Harad
OR, simply, Aragorn doesnt want someone else tooting his horn, and wisely, does not want the CoE distracted from its purpose of Ring Disposal Planning, by a pointless argument about who has the best claim to rule Gondor.
That's not what I got from the look on his face. He had a bit of embarrasment going on.
Originally posted by Harad
I believe this explanation is much more in keeping with the Movie Aragorn, and would even have been true for the Book Aragorn.
I don't remember book Aragorn being at all averse to praise of his heritage.
Thorin
03-07-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by PRH
I would have said rather that he has no intention to go to Minas Tirith and no intention to become king.
This continues until the conversation with Boromir in Lorien. At that point a spark is ignited in him for the love of Gondor and pride of the race of men. As he kneels over the dying Boromir that spark turns into a vow to aid Gondor. Nothing solid about intending to become king yet.
Aragorn's intention was to go to Minas Tirith...Losing Gandalf, having M&P taken, and Boromir dying ended up with Aragorn forced to make some decisions....I can't see Aragorn going on this trip with nothing planned.
Quoted by Harad
He is struggling over his destiny. He certainly acknowledges being heir to Isildur.
Aragorn in the book has left Gondor behind for 40 years before the Ring is found. I dont see him rushing to be King either.
I don't get Aragorn struggling with his destiny at all, and that is where the movie makes him too wishy-washy. Not being in a hurry to be king and struggling with his destiny as the king's heir are two different things.
Originally posted by Thorin
Aragorn's intention was to go to Minas Tirith..I can't see Aragorn going on this trip with nothing planned.
Where do you get that from the movie? Only once Boromir dies does he even mention anything about it.
Originally posted by Thorin
I don't get Aragorn struggling with his destiny at all
We are talking specifically about the movie Aragorn. Of course the book Aragorn wasn't struggling with his destiny. Clearly the movie Aragorn was.
aragil
03-07-2002, 07:03 PM
Well, I'll just say that I think that your interpretation of movie Aragorn was just that: your interpretation.
I did not feel that movie Aragorn doubted his legitamacy as heir, but doubted his ability to accomplish his goal. IMO book Aragorn was similar- he did not just feel that he could sit up in Rivendell and the kingship would come to him. It took every ounce of effort he could put into it (and a good deal of luck) for him to become king. He did doubt that he could accomplish this- read the passage in the book where the fellowship sets off from Rivendell. Aragorn's sitting there with his head between his knees, wondering if he'll pull it off. If he were as confident in his ability to become king as people here are trying to say, then he would have been champing at the bit here, not apprehensively hanging his head between his knees.
Originally posted by aragil
Well, I'll just say that I think that your interpretation of movie Aragorn was just that: your interpretation.
I did not feel that movie Aragorn doubted his legitamacy as heir, but doubted his ability to accomplish his goal.
Who said anything about him doubting his legitimacy? I only said that he started off having no intention to pursue the kingship.
Harad
03-07-2002, 07:50 PM
Who said anything about him doubting his legitimacy? I only said that he started off having no intention to pursue the kingship.
This is shirley a tealeaf reading that can only be supported by the "look in his eyes" or the "tone of his voice." Never does he say:
"No Kingship for me. I'm gonna stay nice and cozy up North."
My impression is of a Man keenly aware of his heritage, not abandonning it. But what is his immediate heritage: Chieftain of the North. The Northern Line was separate from the Southern Line of Gondor and it would take a CHANGE for Aragorn to be King of Gondor.
Elrond's "chosen exile" quote is meant to juxtapose Aragorn's current position with his potential. Its a shorthand for "chosen not to pursue his potential claim to the Kingship." Furthermore Elrond's statement is true UNTIL the finding of the Ring. That sets into motion events and opportunities in both Movie and Book that bring Aragorn, willingly, to the Kingship.
Snaga
03-08-2002, 12:10 AM
I dont really know where this has come from? Do you just feel left out in my argument service? **Chuckles**
I will modify my stance to say that 'Aragorn certainly had no intention of claiming the kingship, and certainly intended to go to Mordor and certainly never even mentioned going to Minas Tirith.'
Elrond's "chosen exile" quote is meant to juxtapose Aragorn's current position with his potential. Its a shorthand for "chosen not to pursue his potential claim to the Kingship." Furthermore Elrond's statement is true UNTIL the finding of the Ring. Since the statement is made after the finding of the Ring, I fail to see how this can be right.
I saw no sign of the progression in Aragorn's views on this: I interpreted the Boromir scene at Lorien differently from PRH. Boromir, distressed waxes lyrical about the 'clear ringing of trumpets' (failing BTW to mention the clear blowing of bells). Aragorn tries to sympathise, but finds no words, and to me seemed like Gondor was a subject he didn't want to get into.
Here's the Aragorn-Boromir scene BTW:
<Aragorn pauses a moment, panting. He then races to Boromir. Boromir, pale and bloodied, is now lying on his back, his head close to a tree>
Boromir: They took the little ones.
Aragorn: Be still.
Boromir: Frodo, where is Frodo?
Aragorn: I let Frodo go.
Boromir: Then you did what I could not. I tried to take the ring from him.
Aragorn: The ring is beyond our reach now.
Boromir: Forgive me, I did not see it. I have failed you all.
Aragorn: No, Boromir, you fought bravely! You have kept your honor. <starts to pull the arrows from Boromir>
Boromir: Leave it! It is over. The world of men will fall, and all will come to darkness… and my city to ruin.
Aragorn: I do not know what strength is in my blood, but I swear to you I will not let the white city fall, nor our people fail!
Boromir: Our people? Our people.
<He reaches for his sword. Aragorn gives it to him. Boromir clasps its hilt to his chest>
Boromir: I would have followed you my brother, my captain, my king!
<Boromir passes away>
Aragorn: Be at peace, son of Gondor.
<Legolas and Gimli arrive at the scene. Legolas looks closely at Aragorn and Boromir. Gimli bows his head and turns away>
At this point Aragorn commits to go to Minas Tirith for the first time. From Boromir's 'Our people? Our people.' I take it that he also had not understood from Aragorn any sign that he wanted the kingship until that moment. Aragorn has laid down his original quest, but appears to have discovered Plan B at a very convenient moment.
Aragil, I disagree with you as well. Aragorn sits with his head bowed before setting out; and I guess apprehension is not a surprising emotion but is that it? Lets look it up:Aragorn sat with his head bowed to his knees; only Elrond fully knew what this hour meant to him. In other words he is running through apprehension, anticipation, excitement, dread and whole load more I guess because after all his long years of toil and waiting he is finally setting out to pursue what he foresees as his destiny. If he succeeds he will be King, restore the house of Elendil to its rightful place, get to marry Arwen and vanquish Sauron. I don't think he doubts his abilities at all; but he knows there's more to this than just his own efforts. Especially since the only way he can fulfil his destiny is if Frodo is successful... and he's not going all the way with him.
By contrast in the film, Aragorn is going all the way. I think the doubt he feels is whether he can resist temptation: he thinks he may go the same way as Isildur, whose blood is in his veins. He doesn't seem to be very proud of his lineage, and hence has chosen exile. Still he would go with Frodo to the end, and vows to protect him. He holds true to that... until Frodo stands him down.
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I saw no sign of the progression in Aragorn's views on this: I interpreted the Boromir scene at Lorien differently from PRH. Boromir, distressed waxes lyrical about the 'clear ringing of trumpets' (failing BTW to mention the clear blowing of bells). Aragorn tries to sympathise, but finds no words, and to me seemed like Gondor was a subject he didn't want to get into.
I really saw this scene as just a little kindling in Aragorn's heart toward Gondor (as well as serving purposes for Boromir's temptation and exposition for Gondor).
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
'Our people? Our people.
I thought he said 'our people. your people.' I'll have to really listen next time. What is the source of your script - an actual script or a transcript of the final movie?
aragil
03-08-2002, 01:27 AM
VofK- I still think you're inserting you're own views into what Aragorn is thinking (in the book). He'd have to be downright arrogant to be setting out to vanquish Sauron (as you put it) without any doubt about his own abilities to do said task. Won't you give him a little doubt in his own abilities on this one?
And I still argue that in the film Aragorn is proud of his own lineage. He has doubts about being around the ring, but so does Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond. Shouldn't this doubt be considered prudence? And look at Aragorn's faithful maintenance of the shrine of his ancestors. After Boromir drops the sword, Aragorn replaces the hilt in the shrine and does a little salute. Plus he still gets his line a the Argonath:
STRIDER: Frodo. The Aragornath. Long have I desired to look upon the kings of old, my kin.
Shirley there is pride in this statement, and in his treatment of the sword. I agree with Harad, Aragorn's words to Legolas at the council were not because he was embarrassed, but because he did not want to turn the council into a stage for him to lay claim to the throne of Gondor. There was a ring to destroy, and the council was not the place for him to make these claims, especially not to a Boromir who was openly hostile to the idea:
STRIDER: You cannot wield it. None of us can. The ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master.
BOROMIR: What would a ranger know of this matter?
LEGOLAS: He is no mere ranger. This is Aragorn, son of Arathorn. You owe him your allegiance.
BOROMIR: This is Isildur's heir?
LEGOLAS: And heir to the throne of Gondor.
STRIDER: Sit down, Legolas.
BOROMIR: Gondor has no king, Gondor needs no king.
To me that just doesn't look like the conversation you'd want to begin your claim to the throne with. Nor is ending a sentence in a preposition a good thing to do.
Originally posted by aragil
VofK- I still think you're inserting you're own views into what Aragorn is thinking (in the book). He'd have to be downright arrogant to be setting out to vanquish Sauron (as you put it) without any doubt about his own abilities to do said task. Won't you give him a little doubt in his own abilities on this one?
I think you're inserting your own views of book Aragorn into movie Aragorn. I've laid out my reasons already.
Originally posted by aragil
BOROMIR: Gondor has no king, Gondor needs no king.
To me that just doesn't look like the conversation you'd want to begin your claim to the throne with. Nor is ending a sentence in a preposition a good thing to do.
There's no way that if Aragorn was serious about reclaiming the kingship and had any pride that he could let this statement just go unanswered, no matter what the agenda of the Council was. It suggest far more strongly than your's and Harad's theory that movie Aragorn had no intention to reclaim the throne at that point.
Harad
03-08-2002, 02:12 AM
Its a question of priorities. Aragorn, movie or book, would be a jerk if his number 1 priority was to claim the throne, when the odds are that the throne would be a charred remnant in a burning city.
And if claiming the kingship were a second priority for him, how would you be expected to glean this fact in the movie? Indirectly--through his reverence for the sword of Isildur and his conversations with Arwen and Boromir.
Snaga
03-08-2002, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by PRH
What is the source of your script - an actual script or a transcript of the final movie? I'm pretty sure it will be a transcript, so errors are an outside possibility. However 'Our people? Our people' is how I remember it. Could this be the excuse for another trip to the cinema that I've been looking for?;)
Originally posted by Aragil
He'd have to be downright arrogant to be setting out to vanquish Sauron (as you put it) without any doubt about his own abilities to do said task. Won't you give him a little doubt in his own abilities on this one? Aragil I didn't mean to imply that Aragorn is completely free from self-doubt: he is human after all. But I can't see that there is anything to suggest that it a significant feature of his character in the book. On the contrary: he is a very self-confident character. He is going to Gondor to claim the kingship and fight against Mordor. There is a big difference between doubting the ability of your side to win against overwhelming odds, and doubt in your personal strength. In the book there is no sign of him being tempted by the ring; in the movie he fears its effect on him.
Originally posted by Aragil
And I still argue that in the film Aragorn is proud of his own lineage. He has doubts about being around the ring, but so does Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond. Shouldn't this doubt be considered prudence? And look at Aragorn's faithful maintenance of the shrine of his ancestors. After Boromir drops the sword, Aragorn replaces the hilt in the shrine and does a little salute. Plus he still gets his line a the Argonath:
STRIDER: Frodo. The Aragornath. Long have I desired to look upon the kings of old, my kin.
Shirley there is pride in this statement, and in his treatment of the sword.I accept there are signs of pride as well as shame. It seems to me that Aragorn in the movie has mixed feelings about his lineage, which he does not have in the book.
Originally posted by Harad
Its a question of priorities. Aragorn, movie or book, would be a jerk if his number 1 priority was to claim the throne, when the odds are that the throne would be a charred remnant in a burning city.
And if claiming the kingship were a second priority for him, how would you be expected to glean this fact in the movie? Indirectly--through his reverence for the sword of Isildur and his conversations with Arwen and Boromir.I'm a bit wary of where you're going with this Harad. Do you mean to imply that Aragorn in the book is a jerk... since he does choose to follow M&P and not F&S, and I know you think it was a duff decision. In the book he believes (initially) that it is his part to go to the wars of Gondor, acknowledging that the most important quest is going East. He reforges Narsil, to take it to war.
In the movie, the shards of Narsil remain at Rivendell, and he never makes any statement to suggest he wishes to claim the kingship. Destroying the ring is his one and only priority. PRH is right, the Rivendell scene suggests he does not wish to make his heritage an issue, because he is not staking a claim at all.
Harad
03-08-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
In the book there is no sign of him being tempted by the ring; in the movie he fears its effect on him.
This is true. I do not find the movie treatment to be less believable in what it chooses to emphasize. If the Book Aragorn NEVER had any doubts of his ability to resist the lure of the Ring, considering what happened to his revered ancestor, Isildur, then that character is unrealistic.
I'm a bit wary of where you're going with this Harad. Do you mean to imply that Aragorn in the book is a jerk... since he does choose to follow M&P and not F&S, and I know you think it was a duff decision. In the book he believes (initially) that it is his part to go to the wars of Gondor, acknowledging that the most important quest is going East. He reforges Narsil, to take it to war.
Of course that discussion (read it again if you dont remember) was about a potential argument at the CoE. Later, in the book, initially he hopes that Gandalf will take the responsibility for the Quest. That will allow him to take the Western route. However, when Gandalf falls, he, as the de facto leader, begins to take responsibility for the Quest. At Parth Galen he changes his mind again. This, as you may know, I find questionable.
In the movie, the shards of Narsil remain at Rivendell, and he never makes any statement to suggest he wishes to claim the kingship. Destroying the ring is his one and only priority. PRH is right, the Rivendell scene suggests he does not wish to make his heritage an issue, because he is not staking a claim at all.
In the Book Aragorn has already fought for Gondor (and Rohan) for 23 years. Yet he has made no claim for the Kingship. You are just reading things into the Book if you think there is proof that his primary goal is to claim the Kingship, rather than contribute his considerable prowess to the War effort.
If there were a CoE scene in the book, do you REALLY think Aragorn would have gotten into a peeing match with Boromir? No way. His "I am Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself" is already acknowledging his current lack of credentials. In the movie that same line is used in the opposite sense. However, it brings out the same point: that Aragorn can potentially be Isildur's heir in more than name only. In other words Aragorn can be heir to Islidur's Kingly qualities without being heir to his weakness.
Originally posted by Harad
In the Book Aragorn has already fought for Gondor (and Rohan) for 23 years. Yet he has made no claim for the Kingship. You are just reading things into the Book if you think there is proof that his primary goal is to claim the Kingship, rather than contribute his considerable prowess to the War effort.
Refresh my memory as my copy of ROTK is not handy. At the time Elrond told Aragorn that Arwen would forsake her immortality for no less a man than the king of both Gondor and Arnor, Aragorn had not yet served in Rohan and Gondor correct? I believe that is so. All of that service in Gondor and Rohan was really king preparation. He was driven by his heritage partly but for the love of Arwen more strongly. I don't believe he wouldn't have served in Gondor and Rohan if he wasn't preparing himself to claim the kingship. The reason he didn't claim the kingship at that time was because the time wasn't ripe. He needed to win the people over during the war with Sauron. That was his destiny.
Harad
03-08-2002, 06:24 PM
Yes. Elrond tells Aragorn this before he goes to Gondor. But notice it doesnt say that he can only marry Arwen if he becomes King. Rather it implies that even if he WERE King he would not be worthy of Arwen. Therefore you could suppose his errantries to arise out of grim determination rather than hope for success. Then, they plight their troth afterwards.
'But Elrond saw many things and read many hearts. One day, therefore, before the fall of the year he called Aragorn to his chamber, and he said: "Aragorn, Arathorn's son, Lord of the Dúnedain, listen to me! A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it."
'Then Aragorn was troubled, and he said: "Can it be that my mother has spoken of this?"
' "No indeed," said Elrond. "Your own eyes have betrayed you. But I do not speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man's child as yet. But as for Arwen the Fair, Lady of Imladris and of Lórien, Evenstar of her people, she is of lineage greater than yours, and she has lived in the world already so long that to her you are but as a yearling shoot beside a young birch of many summers. She is too far above you. And so, I think, it may well seem to her. But even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us."
Futher, in that section of the tale we read the following. This is clearly where the movie line comes from:
His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape.
Originally posted by Harad
But notice it doesnt say that he can only marry Arwen if he becomes King. Rather it implies that even if he WERE King he would not be worthy of Arwen.
That's just plain wrong. Elrond is clearly saying that the only worthy mortal of Arwen is the king of Gondor and Arnor so if you want her, become king.
Originally posted by Harad
Futher, in that section of the tale we read the following. This is clearly where the movie line comes from:
Clearly? No, not clearly at all. What line? - "he has chosen exile?"
Harad
03-08-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by PRH
That's just plain wrong.
There's a compelling argument! And where is the proof?
But I do not speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man's child as yet.
So Elrond is talking generally.
She is too far above you.
And where does it say: "But she wont be above you when you are King"????????????????
Clearly? No, not clearly at all. What line? - "he has chosen exile?"
as a king that is in exile
Clearly to me. Of course you need to apply some reasoning.
1. he appears as a King in Exile.
2. he choses to live in the North
Thus the movie line. Elrond does say the line after the Ring is found but BEFORE Aragorn pledges his sword to the RingBearer.
Originally posted by Harad
There's a compelling argument! And where is the proof?
And where does it say: "But she wont be above you when you are King"????????????????
Clearly to me. Of course you need to apply some reasoning.
I can't supply proof because the problem lies in your interpretations.
The stuff about Aragorn having to become king is so Elrond will allow Arwen to marry him. The stuff about Arwen being above Aragorn is Elrond saying she probably wouldn't even want him if Elrond did allow it. It has nothing to do with being kind.
It's a pretty huge jump from your exile quote to movie Elrond's exile quote, expecially since they share so few words. My little outburst was because it seemed to out of left field, it was a jarring topic shift.
Snaga
03-08-2002, 07:14 PM
I think you guys are getting into a dogfight over something that doesn't really bear on the question. Aragorn would do what he could to fight Sauron either way. The point is, that by the time of the CoE he definitely is looking to claim the Kingship.
(BTW, Elrond is opposed to their marriage because he doesn't want Arwen to choose mortality & be parted from her. He won't let her face that choice for anything less than the restoration of the kingship of Man)
Originally posted by Harad
This is true. I do not find the movie treatment to be less believable in what it chooses to emphasize. If the Book Aragorn NEVER had any doubts of his ability to resist the lure of the Ring, considering what happened to his revered ancestor, Isildur, then that character is unrealistic.If you think about it though, noone but Boromir suffers from this 'remote temptation'. Gandalf, Galadriel feared to bear the ring, but didn't seem too bothered about being around it for a while. The thing with Boromir is that he is never convinced in his own mind that the ring cannot be used. This makes him much more susceptible.
Originally posted by Harad
In the Book Aragorn has already fought for Gondor (and Rohan) for 23 years. Yet he has made no claim for the Kingship. You are just reading things into the Book if you think there is proof that his primary goal is to claim the Kingship, rather than contribute his considerable prowess to the War effort.
If there were a CoE scene in the book, do you REALLY think Aragorn would have gotten into a peeing match with Boromir? No way. His "I am Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself" is already acknowledging his current lack of credentials. In the movie that same line is used in the opposite sense. However, it brings out the same point: that Aragorn can potentially be Isildur's heir in more than name only. In other words Aragorn can be heir to Islidur's Kingly qualities without being heir to his weakness. I think when Aragorn says "I am Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself" this is a way of him defusing tension... it is Bilbo who in the book tells Boromir of Aragorn's credentials: 'the crownless again will be king'. It is a fair point that Aragorn in the book is much more vocal about going to war, rather than explicitly claiming the kingship. But it is also clear from the Aragorn and Arwen bits in Appendix A that it is all one and the same. He believes that through the defeat of Mordor, he will be able to claim the kingship of Arnor and Gondor, and moreover Elrond lays it upon him that nothing less will do for him to win the hand of Arwen. So after the CoE Aragorn is going to war.
The fact remains that in the film he is not claiming the kingship or going to fight in the wars of Gondor. He is only going to help Frodo in the quest thing to destroy the ring.
Snaga
03-08-2002, 07:24 PM
Harad
If you recall the full statement from Elrond it was 'He turned from that path a long time ago. He has chosen exile.'
In other words he has made a decision not to pursue the kingship. In the book he believes his fate hinges on whether the war against Sauron is successful, and if it is he will become King. That is the fate he is striving for. They could scarcely be more different!
Harad
03-08-2002, 07:27 PM
If you think about it though, noone but Boromir suffers from this 'remote temptation'.
I dont accept this. In the book Aragorn knows full well what happened to his great ancestor Isildur. He has strength but can not know what would happen when it comes time to destroy the Ring. Even Boromir kept himself in check until Parth Galen.
Elrond lays it upon him that nothing less will do for him to win the hand of Arwen. So after the CoE Aragorn is going to war.
This is not in the quote that I posted. And the quote I posted occurs 70 years before the CoE. Please post the quote that states what you say.
Snaga
03-08-2002, 07:39 PM
Here it is: after Aragorn returns from his errantries, when Elrond learns they have 'plighted their troth':
My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of joy for a while. Alas, my son! I fear to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending.
Originally posted by Harad
I dont accept this. In the book Aragorn knows full well what happened to his great ancestor Isildur. He has strength but can not know what would happen when it comes time to destroy the Ring. Even Boromir kept himself in check until Parth Galen. The difference is that Isildur was a ring-bearer, Aragorn didn't expect to. Is your view that if Frodo had had Aragorn for company at Mt Doom, Aragorn would have been biting at his finger instead of Gollum??
Roseberry
03-08-2002, 07:39 PM
I agree with Bunnywhippet on this one - Aragorn asks where the ring is out of his concern, having previously seen that Boromir & Frodo were both missing, & knowing already Boromir's thinking about the ring (both from the Council of Elrond & from the trek up Caradhras). It seems to me that in terms of movie language, this scene underscores the idea that the ring has a degenerative impact on those around it, and that although Boromir was the first one to go under, it would eventually have corroded the whole Fellowship. The part where Aragorn says to Frodo that he would have gone the whole way to the fires of Mordor points out his difference from the others, as the heir of Isildur & one of the Dunedain. He would not have given in, but the others would have, so . . . Frodo must go.
I also have to say, though, that the scene didn't quite work. My own two shillings' worth.
Harad
03-08-2002, 07:47 PM
Welcome Roseberry,
Hope that "didn;t quite work" did not spoil the movie for you.
Thanks for that quote VoK, just a few paragraphs down I see. It proves to PRH that Aragorn's errantries were not in response to THAT statement of Elrond.
In any case (and I did believe that quote of yours to be true--see prior arguments) Aragorn does not have to follow Elronds dictum for 2 reasons: 1) without the War of the Ring IN HIS LIFETIME, there is little justification for him to become King of Gondor, and 2) they can get married anyway, since they were both (WAY) over 21.
The difference is that Isildur was a ring-bearer, Aragorn didn't expect to be.
Give me a chuckle and say that Isildur "expected to be a Ringbearer."
I do not think that Boromir was the only one who thinks about using the ring himself. After all, even Galadriel is more than a little tempted.
Snaga
03-08-2002, 07:49 PM
Hi Roseberry - welcome to the forum!:)
I think your interpretation is right. I'm sure that's what Aragorn meant by that, but its a strange way of saying it. I think they deliberately made it a bit open to interpretation to make it more understandable that Frodo would start running. I don't like it because he doesn't usually have a problem expressing himself, and its not the most natural way to ask the question. 'Did he take the ring' would be more straightforward IMHO
Snaga
03-08-2002, 08:02 PM
OK lets clarify this.
Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's finger, with spectacular results. In doing so he comes into possession of the ring. Once in possession, the ring starts tempting him straightaway. He decides not to destroy it. Bad choice.
Its very different to decide to forcibly take the ring from a friend. Not unprecedented: that's what Smeagol did to Deagol. But if Aragorn doesn't think he will go the same way, I am inclined to agree. The fact that Aragorn has a greater nobility than Boromir, but also that he accepts that it cannot be used will give him strength to resist. Hama, Galadriel's temptation is when Frodo offers it to her.
Harad, the quote furnished by you shows that Elrond has already forseen that the War of the Ring will happen in Aragorn's lifetime (although not necessarily the form that the war will take). Of course he doesn't have to follow Elrond's dictum, but the point is he clearly does!
Harad
03-08-2002, 09:12 PM
VoK:
Lets get THIS clear. Isildur went to battle Sauron, never intending to be a Ringbearer.
Aragorn accompanied Frodo, never intending to be a Ringbearer. Scheiss happens.
doesn't have to follow Elrond's dictum, but the point is he clearly does!
He clearly doesnt. In the book, 38 YEARS PASS. Aragorn is 87 years old--the average life expectancy of his 14 ancestors is 60! THEN the Ring is found and the War of the Ring turns from Cold to Hot. Just because Elrond forsees something doesnt make it so. Otherwise the Elves would have been a lot more successful overall.
Snaga
03-08-2002, 09:49 PM
Sorry, Harad, I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me about Aragorn, from Isildur's experience. My point is that Aragorn has no reason to infer from Isildur's fate that the ring will corrupt him to the point that he will be in danger of trying to take it by force from Frodo. That is not what Isildur did. Are you disagreeing?
I don't think the average life expectancy of his ancestors is 60. Its much greater. In fact his dad is shot through the eye aged 60 and the book is specific that he died young for his race.
Again, I don't get what your point is. I've said he believes war will come in his lifetime, and when it does he will either gain the kingship and Arwen, or his line will end. At the CoE it becomes clear that the War of the Ring is at hand: so he goes south to war, with the intent of claiming the kingship. You say 'Just because Elrond forsees it doesn't make it so' - but the point is that that's what Aragorn believes, even if you are skeptical about his prescience.
Aragorn is, in his way very wise, aware and clever. I don't think he did not know anything about a war being just around the corner. He knew he had a destiny - a destiny in which greatness featured prominently. I don't think only Elrond's words swayed him, although they did help. But he did not know how things would turn out. Would he die a heroic death? Or would he be able to declare the kingship of Gondor and Arnor again? Remember there were many obstacles other than Sauron that would have prevented him from succeeding to the throne. Aragorn, unlike many of his ancestors, spent a long time away from home - Rohan, Gondor, Harad and even Khand (VoK). He knew that the necromancer was Sauron and that his armies were threatening Gondor, which spelt only one thing. W A R. He also was wise enough to understand the power of the ring, and was not short-sighted in the fashion of Boromir.
Harad
03-08-2002, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me about Aragorn, from Isildur's experience.
OK more explicit. Isildur did not intend to be a Ringbearer. Unforseen events occurred and he did become a Ringbearer. He behaved badly. Aragorn, if he thinks at all, can imagine that IF he is in the Company of the Ring, THEN at some point unforseen events might lead him to become a Ringbearer. Then he could speculate as to whether he would act better than Isildur acted.
I don't think the average life expectancy of his ancestors is 60. Its much greater. In fact his dad is shot through the eye aged 60 and the book is specific that he died young for his race.
Fine. "[You] dont think." Then tell me why there were 14 chieftans in 800 years? Early retirement? Of course his father got shot thru the eye. It was a dangerous job with "short" tenure.
Again, I don't get what your point is. I've said he believes war will come in his lifetime, and when it does he will either gain the kingship and Arwen, or his line will end. At the CoE it becomes clear that the War of the Ring is at hand: so he goes south to war, with the intent of claiming the kingship.
Sorry that my points are so obscure. "He believes the war will come in his lifetime." Yet he patiently waits 38 years for the kickoff. He "hopes" the War will come in his lifetime, so he can get on with business. But 38 years with an on-the-job life expectancy of 60 is a rather long time to "know."
He goes south to win the War.
aragil
03-08-2002, 11:15 PM
Slight correction to Harad- Arthedain ended in 1974, the War of the Ring is not until 3018. 1144 years for 14 chieftains still puts Aragorn in the red at the time of the Council of Elrond, so Harad's point still stands.
At the Council it seems to me that Aragorn is going to help in the war effort, not claim kingship in Gondor. I don't recall him claiming kingship in the book CoE any more than in the movie. Unfortunately I'm currently without books, so perhaps someone can remind me: doesn't he shush Bilbo in a similar manner to how he shushes Legolas in the movie?
And if Movie Aragorn is not planning at some point for the Kingship, then what is he waiting for with Arwen?
ARWEN: Your time will come. You will face the same evil, and you will defeat it. The shadow does not yet hold sway. Not over you, not over me. Do you remember the first time we met?
STRIDER: I thought I had strayed into a dream.
ARWEN: Long years have passed since then. You did not have the cares you carry now. Do you remember what I told you?
STRIDER: You said you would bind yourself to me, and forsake the immortal life of your people.
ARWEN: And to that I hold. I would rather share one lifetime with you than face all the ages of the world alone. I choose a mortal life.
What does Movie Arwen mean by 'Your time will come'? It's been 'long years' since Arwen said that she would 'bind herself' to Aragorn, yet in all those long years they've never tied the knot. IMO Elrond's 'Become king if you want to marry my daughter' statement is implicit in the movie, especially if you look at these lines. He hasn't acted on it yet, but he hadn't really acted on it in the book either. His errantry in Gondor is hinted at in the movie by his statement to Boromir in Lorien. Just because he doesn't explicitly say in the movie what his plans are for after the quest doesn't mean that we can't infer them from other passages. If he's looking to marry Arwen, then apparently he has to do something different than what he's been doing in the 'long years' since they've plighted their troth.
IMO the chief difference between movie and book is that in the movie Aragorn plans to go to Minas Tirith from Rivendell until Moria, then he plans to go to Mordor, then re-claim his Kingship after all is over. In the movie he plans to go to Mordor all along, but still plans to assert his kinship later, else why all the waiting with Arwen?
Roseberry
03-08-2002, 11:39 PM
Thanks, Harad & Variag for your warm welcome. :) I've also been watching your debate with some interest.
Regarding Aragorn's lifespan, I thought the Dunedain lived for centuries. He & Arwen have known each other for some 50 years when FOTR takes place -
And no, Harad, that scene didn't spoil the movie at all for me. Tomorrow will be my 10th viewing! It would have been hard for Peter Jackson to resolve it in the same way as the book, much as I'm all for sticking to it as closely as possible. (The Arwen / Glorfindel thing didn't bother me either - I thought that worked very well.)
Harad, this 60 years average livespan thing is totally unfounded based on what you've given. 800 year for 14 chieftains does not make a 60 year average lifespan. When you adjust for Aragil's correction of 1144 years, you would get an 80 year lifespan which is unfounded also. You can't just say 800 year/14 chieftains =57 years each or 1144 years / 14 chieftains = 81 years. That's not enough evidence. Now I haven't looked at the births and deaths of each of the chieftains as I don't have ROTK handy (not sure if it's in there for all of them anyway - anyone?) but maybe you have and I will be proven wrong, but until then - the lifespans are much longer than 1144/14=81 year span would suggest. That assumes that each heir is born the year the father dies. Horrible assumption. Take for example 5 cheiftains who each live to 100 and have a son when they are 50. 300 years would pass for 5 chieftains so your reasoning would put them at a (300/5) 60 year lifespan each when indeed they lived to 100.
edit:
I'm racking my brain to come up with a solution to the average lifespan if 1144 years passed and there were 14 chieftains who each had their heir at - say - 30 years old. Can't work it out...is there a solution? I've been too long out of school.
Anyway, we're talking lifespans in the neighborhood of 120 years (totally rough guess).
edit 2:
btw - I just grabbed the book and we're looking at about 990 years. Aranath is the first chieftain. His father Arvedui was wed in 1940 so I used 1943 for his birthdate. There were 14 chieftains before the fifteenth, Aragorn II became king. His father Arathorn II died in 2933. That makes 990 years for 14 chieftains.
Harad
03-09-2002, 12:21 AM
Great Roseberry!
There were little things I didnt like as well, but nothing that took away from my overall great enjoyment.
PRH, I agree with you that I chose one simple method to estimate that average lifespan. That is certainly a lower limit. I have posted that without contradiction hoping somebody would have some "facts" to dispute it. That hasnt happened. Apparently JRRT didnt bother to list birth and death dates for all or most or any of the Chieftains. Of course since he was inventing an entire universe I dont fault him for leaving that one item out.
Nevertheless Aragorn was 2yo or so when HIS father died. We just dont know about the others, except that I remember other violent deaths. Even if you double the life span to 120 then Aragorn was 3/4 of the way there when the War of the Ring started. He spent his years, AFTER his betrothal, from 50 to 87 in the North. If the Ring finding had been delayed for another 30 years, then what?
Snaga
03-09-2002, 12:41 AM
I'll go with something around the 100 mark, but I'm not too bothered about the maths myself. Aragorn definitely lives longer than all of his recent forebears. But its all beside the point. Harad says
"He believes the war will come in his lifetime." Yet he patiently waits 38 years for the kickoff. He "hopes" the War will come in his lifetime, so he can get on with business. But 38 years with an on-the-job life expectancy of 60 is a rather long time to "know." True enough, and Aragorn is very much aware of his long wait. Remember his words to Gandalf... damn I was going to quote them but my copy of TTT has gone walkabout:mad: anyway, when he gives him the Palantir, Aragorn reminds him of how patient he has been. I don't see he had much choice but to wait: he couldn't start the war on his own.
Aragil, you can look at that part of the film, through the lense of the book, and choose to see it that way. But then it doesn't stack up with the Elrond - Gandalf dialogue. In truth, why they are waiting is not at all clear. You posted:Your time will come. You will face the same evil, and you will defeat it. But this says nothing about the kingship. I don't think it is right to use the book as a kind of viewer's aid for the movie. There are enough divergences to make this completely suspect. In any case the movie has to stand on its own two feet. If you can't make sense of it without referring to the book, something is very wrong.
However I do agree that Legolas' lines in the film are drawn from Bilbo's outburst in the book, and in neither case does Aragorn leap in and shout 'Hey-ey-ey I'm the KING'. But that one scene is one of many: in the book you have the chapter at Prancing Pony where Gandalf's letter quotes Bilbo's verses, and Aragorn shows them the sword. You have Gandalf's conversation with Frodo when he wakes up in Rivendell. You have the re-forging of the Sword. All of this points to what is happening; and in the film its not there.
But even if it was, you are still left with a fundamental point. Whatever he thinks of the kingship, in the film he is still not intending to go to Minas Tirith.
Harad
03-09-2002, 12:55 AM
Whatever he thinks of the kingship, in the film he is still not intending to go to Minas Tirith.
So?
In the Book he intends to go to Minas Tirith to Fight the War.
What eggzactly are you complaining about in the movie? That the audience doesnt know that he is the potential King? C'mon!
Elrond: He has chosen exile.
Arwen: Your time will come ("Our Day Will Come" Ruby and the Romantics)
Legolas: He is your King
Boromir: with Narsil in the Museum
Aragorn: I am Isildur's heir
So wha? Why all those references if the Kingship isnt in his future?
The original point is his motives at Amon Hen since he has no intention of claiming the kingship and no plans to go to Gondor.
Harad
03-09-2002, 01:25 AM
The original point is his motives at Amon Hen since he has no intention of claiming the kingship and no plans to go to Gondor.
At Amon Hen he is not at a loss for things to do:
1. He is taking Frodo to Morrrrdorrrr
2. He is told to stand down by Frodo
3. One millisecond later he is fighting a gazillion Orcs
4. He is pulling arrows out of Boromir-the-Pin-Cushion
5. He is going to Hunt some Orc
Just like Aragorn in the book, he has no opportunity to go directly to Minas Tirith, even were that his desire. As far as "claiming the Kingship" we disagree as to the size of the gap between the movie and book. I think its miniscule...you think you can drive a car thru it.
Bill the Pony
03-09-2002, 01:29 AM
Hmm, I seem to be quite late in this, but in a reaction to a few posts back
1. Some math. (if I did it wrong, remember I'm a horse and count in base 4). If all chieftains get their heir at age 60, then they can grow to any age, and still the dates of their deaths would on average be 60 years apart. E.g. Dad: born year 0, dies year 500. Son born year 60, dies year 560; grandson born year 120, dies year 620. Distance between years of deaths says nothing about the age.
Could not find anything about dates of birth anywhere, only dates of death.
2. Aragorn did not exactly wait 38 years. Gandalf told him about his suspicion about the Ring 17 years earlier, when they started hunting Gollum. So from then on, Aragorn must have had a good inkling that the Ring had been found, and that something was going to happen. Does it change the argument if he only waited 20 years?
3. At that time Aragorn was about 70 (?). His dad died 'a man of full age' at 60, and was only just wed. So at 70, it may not have been so weird for Aragorn to still be unwed.
daisy
03-09-2002, 02:13 AM
Is there anything written that states ME years are the same as real Earth years? I always wondered this....
Originally posted by Harad
At Amon Hen he is not at a loss for things to do:
1. He is taking Frodo to Morrrrdorrrr
2. He is told to stand down by Frodo
3. One millisecond later he is fighting a gazillion Orcs
4. He is pulling arrows out of Boromir-the-Pin-Cushion
5. He is going to Hunt some Orc
2 thru 5 don't matter at all. The point was that the ease with which he allowed Frodo to go was questionable because he had nothing to do at that time.
Originally posted by Bill the Pony
1. Some math. (if I did it wrong, remember I'm a horse and count in base 4). If all chieftains get their heir at age 60, then they can grow to any age, and still the dates of their deaths would on average be 60 years apart.
Yes. You could say that. Although we know they can't live too long because they needed to get 14 of them into 990 years and the son doesn't take his father's place until the father dies.
Originally posted by Bill the Pony
2. Aragorn did not exactly wait 38 years. Gandalf told him about his suspicion about the Ring 17 years earlier, when they started hunting Gollum. So from then on, Aragorn must have had a good inkling that the Ring had been found, and that something was going to happen. Does it change the argument if he only waited 20 years?
It was 50 years from the time Aragorn met Arwen (at age 18) to the time he started hunting Gollum (i.e. suspected the ring had been found)(21 years since he betrothed Arwen). It was 67 years from the time Aragorn met Arwen until the CoE (37 years since he betrothed Arwen). For whatever that's worth.
Harad
03-09-2002, 02:31 AM
The 17 years after the 20 years could not be put in the category of "actively seeking the Kingship of Gondor." So its a good 37 years after his betrothal. Remember he was betrothed not knowing that 37 years later was "go-time."
I dont think he ever actively seeked the Kingship until the very end, after Denethor got crispy.
Harad
03-14-2002, 07:06 AM
Another viewing has fixed the interchange between Frodo and Aragorn back into my mind:
1. Frodo falls off of Amon Hen, having just escaped Boromir and Sauron an instant before.
2. Aragorn approaches and calls his name.
3. Frodo tells him that Boromir attacked, and Aragorn asks where the Ring is. This question can be interpreted in two ways: Aragorn has a concern for the well-being of the Quest and wants the Ring to be safe--OR--Aragorn is trying to take the Ring his own self.
4. Frodo the memory of Boromir fresh in his mind asks Aragorn if he wants the Ring for himself, taking the second interpretion in #3 because of the stress of the moment. "Could you save it from yourself?"
5. Aragorn is disappointed but understanding and says "I would have followed you to the Cracks of Doom."
6. Frodo acknowledges his mistake to accuse Aragorn and says "I know."
7. Frodo tells Aragorn that he has decided to go alone by saying "Take care of the others, especially Sam."
8. Before Aragorn can respond, Sting glows blue.
There is no opportunity for second thoughts or debate. Aragorn then is willing to sacrifice himself against one or two gazillion orcs so that Frodo can escape.
Harad
03-22-2002, 09:26 AM
`I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for it is my duty,' said Boromir; and after that he was silent for a while, sitting with his eyes fixed on Frodo, as if he was trying to read the Halfling's thoughts. At length he spoke again, softly, as if he was debating with himself. `If you wish only to destroy the Ring,' he said, `then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force into his domain; and folly to throw away.' He paused suddenly, as if he had become aware that he was speaking his thoughts aloud. `It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean,' he ended. `It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death. At least, that is how I see it.'
Frodo caught something new and strange in Boromir's glance, and he looked hard at him. Plainly Boromir's thought was different from his final words. It would be folly to throw away: what? The Ring of Power? He had said something like this at the Council, but then he had accepted the correction of Elrond. Frodo looked at Aragorn, but he seemed deep in his own thought and made no sign that he had heeded Boromir's words.
The above quote is for PRH and the "missing" VoK.
This occurs near the end of the visit to Lorien. IMO the scene that you dislike so much in the movie "He will try to take it," takes the place of words like this in the book, that JUST AS OVERTLY make the same point.
Originally posted by Harad
JUST AS OVERTLY
No, not just as overtly at all. Refusing to accept that Gondor cannot use the Ring is not at all just as overt as "He will try to take the Ring. You know of whom I speak."
Furthermore, in the book we only had Boromir's attitude at the COE and the statement you quoted to show his desire for the Ring (and his refusal to tell what Galadriel tempted him with I suppose). Plus, they are separated with chapters upon chapters. It takes several hours if not days for an reader to get to the next hint. In the movie we had the COE, the Caradhras incident, his quailing in front of Galadriel, and his vague conversation with Aragorn in Lorien. This was plenty of foreshadowing. "He will try to take the Ring" just blew it all away. And the hints are spaced much more closely in the viewers memory.
Harad
03-22-2002, 07:23 PM
It takes several hours if not days for an reader to get to the next hint. In the movie we had the COE
The slow reader is amply rewarded according to you. The movie was long but it wasnt "real time." The time between Caradharas and Lorien just could not practically be stretched to "hours if not days."
Galadriel was a "witch." She foreshadowed things. That conversation between Frodo and Boromir, was just as EXPLICIT, unless you have your head in the sand. It was left out of the movie. Galadriel's message fulfills the same purpose.
Originally posted by Harad
The slow reader is amply rewarded according to you. The movie was long but it wasnt "real time." The time between Caradharas and Lorien just could not practically be stretched to "hours if not days."
It would probably take even the fastest readers 2 hours between COE and your quote in Lorien, then 2 hours between Lorien and the incident on Amon Hen. The 'days' part was for those who set the book down and come back to it later (most people). In a movie, you get it all in one sitting of a few hours. What I mean to say is that it's a lot easier to make these sort of connections in such a movie than a book because of this spread-out time table (so less foreshadowing is necessary to drive a point home).
Originally posted by Harad
Galadriel was a "witch." She foreshadowed things. That conversation between Frodo and Boromir, was just as EXPLICIT, unless you have your head in the sand. It was left out of the movie. Galadriel's message fulfills the same purpose.
First, it was not as explicit. Showing that Boromir is tempted by the Ring is pretty explicit but Galadriel saying "he will try to take the ring" is as explicit as it gets (unless you stick to your weak argument that 'he' could be Sauron).
Secondly, even if you were right, we have plenty of foreshadowing in the movie already. That scene on Caradhras was huge. Plus we had some other bits. The book was lacking for foreshadowing incidents and it needed one more piece of it, hence that quote you gave.
I just think it would've been a better foreshadowing set-up without 'he will try to take the Ring.' We already had plenty. For foreshadowing to work, you don't necessarily have to tell the audience what is going to happen so they are expecting it. What you do need is enough evidence so that after the event happens the audience can remember all the foreshadowing and feel satisfied that the event is consistent with earlier events. I really just think they went overboard.
lilhobo
03-23-2002, 11:31 AM
for seer visuals you cant beat PJ's LOTR, but for intellegient dialogue you cant beat Bakshi's version, which relied heavily on Tolkien's words for the better.
Galadriel also mentioned that one by one they will all be taken by the ring, and this saved the dialogue. But saying "you know of whom i speak" was rather cheesy!
they dumbed that down for the audience and yet they failed to have Galadriel reveal to frodo that she was testing him as much as he was testing her with the ring
ah well, they will win best adpatation by default coz there is no other adatations :eek:
Snaga
03-23-2002, 09:07 PM
The Lorien scene's are quite different in a number of ways that are worth some thought.
In the book Boromir is quite 'closed' about what he is tempted with, and the nature of that, but slips up and reveals for the first time that he is not at one with the quest. Thereafter he is gnawing at his fingernails as the float down the Anduin.
In the film his disagreement and lust for the ring is fairly thinnly disguised all along. At Lorien he is preoccupied with the fate of Gondor, but the ring is not mentioned. Also it is not said that Galadriel tempts them all. Without the 'he will take the ring' line the film's treatment was quite good I thought, given that the boat scenes that the book uses would not have translated well. The Caradhras scene was a good substitute IMO. But that Galadriel line was like a hand grenade, telling the audience exactly what would happen. Frodo was therefore irrational in spending any more time with Boromir too. The Boromir-Aragorn conversation could have provided more subtle sign-posting/foreshadowing than was actually achieved.
Thorin
03-24-2002, 03:42 AM
PRH, I agree with you on that one...For some reason I missed that little line in the movie and I'm glad I did...Just reading it from you makes me heated....
What amazes me is that Harad is even arguing against the Film Adaptation Defenders (PRH and lilhobo) about something that Jackson has once again done to dumb things down for the audience instead of sticking to the story...What's even more amazing that he tries to drudge up anything from the book to support such a give away comment instead of say anything bad against Jackson's interpretation.
Having Boromir state that it is folly to walk in to Mordor with the ring is also foreshadowing....To compare it with a cheesy fabricated give away like, "He will try to take it. You know of whom I speak" is ludicrous....
Harad, just bend a little for once instead of even arguing against your own...:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Thorin
Having Boromir state that it is folly to walk in to Mordor with the ring is also foreshadowing....To compare it with a cheesy fabricated give away like, "He will try to take it. You know of whom I speak" is ludicrous....
Thank you. I thought I was beginning to lose my mind there. Arguing with the immovable object can do that to you after a while.
Originally posted by Thorin
Harad, just bend a little for once instead of even arguing against your own...:rolleyes:
Harad and I both are FADs I suppose (he being the ultimate FAD) but we don't seem to agree too often...
I wouldn't expect a reply for the H-man anytime soon. I'm afraid he has fallen into shadow.
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