Why the Curse?

[Eonwe]

Why curse the Noldor?

I mean Feanor was leading everyone with his voice, they slew the Teleri at Alqualonde, a few Noldor wanted to leave to ME to make their own realms, but overall...

Why did the Valar do it?

1) The Valar are searching for Morgoth yet never take action against him until the end of the 1st Age

2) They curse the house of Fingolfin the same as the house of Feanor, even though the elves of the house of Fingolfin fought against the Teleri not knowing the house of Feanor started it all

3) Feanor again betrays his kin by grabbing the boats and leaving the rest of the Noldor to cross the ice of Helcaraxe just like Yukon Cornelius

4) Morgoth and Ungoilant's drunken vandalism against the trees was what started everything

Why couldn't they have asked for repentance from the house of Feanor only, gave passage to the elves back to ME who wanted to go (they brought them there why not a return ticket), kicked Morgoth's butt sooner, I mean come on! Fingolfin rides alone against Morgoth and they just sit there on Tanquentil?

[Hama]

I am not sure I understand the poll, so I haven't voted. But in reply to your post, I came up with the following:
1) They cursed the house of Fingolfin because although they did not mean it, they let loose the flow of blood in the Undying lands.
2) The Noldor were rebeling against the authority and power of the Valar, so the last thing the valar wanted to do was help them to do this by sending them to the Hither lands.
3) Morgoth did kill the trees, but the Valar cunningly replaced them with the sun and the moon. There was no longer a reason to risk death and wage war on Morgoth. He was minding his own business in Angband and the Valar minded their own in Valinor.
And lastly, had they gone to war so quickly against Melkor, it would not have made such good reading.

[Mormegil]

I think it's out of order how the Sindarin Elves, The Dwarves and the Edain of Beleriand were drawn into the doom of the Noldor. They had nothing to do with any of the Kinslaying etc. but were treated the same as the Noldor by the Valar.

Poor Turin:( .

[Eonwe]

and as soon as Thingol demanded a Silmaril, he got hooked too.

Anybody have the quote of what Manwe says when he hears what Feanor's reply is to the summons he gives? This is just before they all start to leave.

[baraka]

And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'

[baraka]

Although i think that Fëanor was the best elf ever, i think that the punishment of the Valar was fair.
The Noldor killed Teleri their own brethen. (But if you think about it, weren´t the Teleri just immortal shipbuilders, who sang all day long. At least the ones who died that day did something other than their usual boredom!, but it´s still very evil.):(
I have always asked myself: Why couldn´t the Teleri "lend" some of their ships to their friends in their hour of need? I don´t get it.
:confused:

[Hama]

The Silmarillion does say why the Teleri did not just hand over the ships. The ships were almost like their children. They were the best ships that were ever made, and were fashioned with their own hands after much work. The last thing they would want to do was hand them over for no cost to some arrogant Noldor prince, who was rebeling against the authority of the Valar.

[baraka]

I didn´t mean for the Teleri to give them away, they could provided them with passage to ME and then they themselves return to "paradise" and keep up their daily routines.:)

[Hama]

But why should they have helped people who openly rebeled against the Valar. Had they aided their return to Middle Earth, the Teleri may have fallen under a similar doom of the Valar as the Noldor, perhaps. Whatever the result, their cooperation would not have pleased the Valar one bit.

[Hama]

Also, Feanor was more than a little haughty when he demanded that they hand over the ships, which would have made the Teleri all the more stubborn and less cooperative.

[baraka]

Then Fëanor grew wrathful, for he still feared delay; and hotly he spoke to Olwë. 'You renounce your friendship, even in the hour of our need,' he said. 'Yet you were glad indeed to receive our aid when you came at last to these shores, fainthearted loiterers, and wellnigh emptyhanded. In huts on the beaches would yon be dwelling still, had not the Noldor carved out your haven and toiled upon your walls.'
But Olwë answered: 'We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. And when the Noldor welcomed us and gave us aid, otherwise then you spoke: in the land of Aman we were to dwell for ever, as brothers whose houses stand side by side. But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.'
I agree that it was not the most courteous way of asking their help, but the Noldor helped them in the past and in their hour of need the Teleri didn´t consider even lending or providing passage to ME.:confused:

[Grond]

Originally posted by Eonwe
Why curse the Noldor?

I mean Feanor was leading everyone with his voice, they slew the Teleri at Alqualonde, a few Noldor wanted to leave to ME to make their own realms, but overall...

Why did the Valar do it?

1) The Valar are searching for Morgoth yet never take action against him until the end of the 1st Age

2) They curse the house of Fingolfin the same as the house of Feanor, even though the elves of the house of Fingolfin fought against the Teleri not knowing the house of Feanor started it all

3) Feanor again betrays his kin by grabbing the boats and leaving the rest of the Noldor to cross the ice of Helcaraxe just like Yukon Cornelius

4) Morgoth and Ungoilant's drunken vandalism against the trees was what started everything

Why couldn't they have asked for repentance from the house of Feanor only, gave passage to the elves back to ME who wanted to go (they brought them there why not a return ticket), kicked Morgoth's butt sooner, I mean come on! Fingolfin rides alone against Morgoth and they just sit there on Tanquentil? Eonwe, your post confuses me because it is not correct.
1) The Valar fought Morgoth twice in the First Age. The first time was right after the Elves awakened. Eru spoke to Manwe and he became aware that it was time for the Vala to again take mastery of Middle-earth. Melkor was chained and made to spend three ages in the void. The trouble began after he was released. Of course, the second battle occurred at the end of the First Age when Earendil convinced the Vala to fight on behalf of the Peoples of Middle-earth and to vanquish Melkor once and for all.... and this was done.

2)They cursed only the House of Feanor and any who would follow them. From the Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor,
"...On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue..." It is at the time that Mandos speaks his curse that Finarfin repents and seeks the pardon of the Valar which is granted. Fingolfin could have done the same either at that time or after he was abandoned by Feanor but as told in the same chapter, "...Then Fingolfin seeing that Feanor had left him to perish in Araman or return in shame to Valinor was filled with bitterness; but he desired now as never before to come by some way to Middle-earth, and meet Feanor again..."

3) The Curse of Mandos occurred before the abandonment of Feanor and after the kinslaying at Aqualonde. Up until Fingolfin's party crossed at Helcaraxe he could still have repented.

4) Actually Eru started it in creating Melkor but that is a wholly different topic that has already been discussed. :) It is true that the war was begun by Melkor and Ungoliant but Feanor's actions had already turned to evil before this. Remember at the time of the darkening of the two trees, Feanor was still in exile for his behavior towards Fingolfin years before. Had Feanor agreed to give the Silmarils to Yavanna to save the trees, matters would have been entirely different. Yes the Silmarils were still stolen but Feanor's act of love for the Valar would likely have prompted them to begin a campaign to recover the Silmarils and instead of being cursed by the Vala the Noldor would have been blessed by the Vala. And everyone knows what people say about having an angel in your pocket. :)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Eonwe
and as soon as Thingol demanded a Silmaril, he got hooked too.

Anybody have the quote of what Manwe says when he hears what Feanor's reply is to the summons he gives? This is just before they all start to leave.




That is right. Although itn was feanor's pride, greed and hatred as well as melkor's lies and deeds that brought it on. Maybe it should have been a curse on them 2?? Who knows though the noldor did follow though. Well most of them.

[Bucky]

Was it so much a 'curse', or simply a 'prophecy' of what was going to happen?

Of course, what was going to happen would seem like a 'curse', especially as it was foretold to them......

[Hama]

Originally posted by Grond
Of course, the second battle occurred at the end of the Second Age when Earendil convinced the Vala to fight on behalf of the Peoples of Middle-earth and to vanquish Melkor once and for all.... and this was done. :)

Sorry Grond, I think you meant the end of the first age that the War of wrath took place.

[Grond]

Oops!! Of course I meant First Age and not the Second Age. I have edited the post to reflect your correction and appreciate you pointing it out. :)

[Bucky]

I believe if you read the context of the 'curse' aka 'The Prophecy of the North' or 'The Doom of the Noldor', you'll see that the Valar did not 'curse' the Noldor, they were simply telling them what was going to happen if they didn't seek pardon & repentance.

The Speaker of the Prophecy (Mandos most likely) does say the wrath of the Valar is on the House of Feanor.

But, other than that, the only real thing that the Valar can be accused of in terms of 'cursing' the Noldor is witholding the power to destroy Morgoth until the Noldor had been fully vanquished.

[Grond]

I agree with Bucky. The Curse of Mandos is not Mandos putting a curse on the Noldor but laying out the tale of their coming lives. It appears that the exile could be undone at any time by simply bowing before the authority of the Vala.

[Hama]

By leaving Valinor, the Noldor were basically saying that they no longer needed, or wanted, the Valar's protection, and with the exception of Ulmo, the Valar made no effort to help them in Middle Earth, because they believed that their help was not needed (wanted). That was, until Earendil came. But I think we must remember that Ulmo did make a conscious effort to help them fight Melkor by aiding Turgon and Finrod with their respective strongholds and helping Tuor get to Gondolin and Earendil get to Valinor.

[Eonwe]

Good point Hama, I forgot about Ulmo.

Grond -- I was talking about the (long) period of time after Morgoth kills the trees to the end of the third age in the War of Wrath. It took all those years plus Earendil's cry for help to get the Valar to chain up Morgoth again right? Why didn't they act (regardless of what the Noldor did) to chain up Morgoth right after he killed the trees? Just asking... Tulkas and Orome were already chasing after him, why didn't they continue?

well we could get into semantics as to what is a curse, and what is prophecy, and what is a psychic reading from Dionne Warwick. I think it is a bit more than just saying what is going to happen to them. "Doom" is I suppose a word saying there's nothing you can do about the future... I guess Curse is my own word, and I won't use it again here. But it sure sounds like a curse when someone says, everything you try to do will be undone.

For instance, remember Melian talking to Thingol, trying to convince him not to get involved with the returning Noldor, and her saying he is interwoven with the Doom of the Noldor because of his request for a Silmaril from Beren? And Maedhros and Maglor (?) who got the remaining two Silmarils end up in a crack in the Earth and on the shore singing for the sadness?

The point of the thread is, the elves do wrong in slaying and spilling blood in Aman, they do wrong in not giving up the Silmarils to get the light of the trees back (IMO), they do wrong (do they?) in leaving Aman without asking for forgiveness, and the sons of Feanor continue to do wrong by following the oath Feanor made to Illuvatar. For this they are told of their Doom. Ok fine. But why don't the Valar go after Morgoth anyway earlier? There is even a part I think that says Tulkas and Orome couldn't find Morgoth because of the darkness spread by Ungoliant.

For these deeds of the Noldor, the entire free people's of Beleriand are punished for the First Age...

I don't see this part of the Sil as badly written or a poor plot, not trying to say that... Just wondering...

[Bucky]

Tulkas & Orome were on Morgoth's trail right after the deed was done.
It wasn't a planned 'offensive' to destroy Morgoth once they knew where he was.

And, the Valar have a history of 'patience' with Morgoth, which is probably based in either knowing the outcome from the Music and/or just confidence in themselves & Illuvator, not needing to rush hastily into irrational decisions.
On the issue of patience (or failure to immediately right Arda's wrongs),
look how long they had those nice trees & all the light from them while ME was dark.

On Ulmo, it's stated by him in UT or The Silmarillion, possibly when talking to Tour, that it was his part to 'oppose his brethen' in helping the Elves.

[Eonwe]

Originally posted by Bucky
On Ulmo, it's stated by him in UT or The Silmarillion, possibly when talking to Tour, that it was his part to 'oppose his brethen' in helping the Elves.

Yes I remember that, so I guess it was "hands off" after the pronouncement by Mandos (or Eonwe) by everyone else, until Earendil convinced them the Noldor were done for.

[Eonwe]

I finally found the passages I was looking for in "Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor"

1) The Valar acted by attempting to bring back the life of the trees. They obtained a flower of Telperion and a fruit of Laurelin. These they set in vessels made by Aule and Varda had them move in the sky as the Sun and the Moon, to hinder Morgoth.

2) The Valar did not act directly upon Morgoth, since they were afraid they might somehow damage the coming of the Secondborn, Men, which they knew not where or when this would occur.

3) Finarfin was able to turn around with a remnant of his people, and receive the pardon of the Valar, which surely Fingolfin and his people could have done. And they could have left later freely as they were brought freely to Aman.

:D