Character from the Silmarillion you do not like

[Camille]

Hama started a thread about Who is your favorite character in the Silmarillion. and I though that would be interesting to know which one you do not like at all and why.
I have two Feanor and Thingol, Feanor because the kinslaying and thingol because sometimes I think that he did not keep up as a Maia husban, he could have done better.
Hope to read your opinions.
greetings

[Mormegil]

Feanor's sons. They had the worst dad in history, but failed to realise that their oath would lead to their doom.

I also do not like Tuor, he had such an easy life. Chosen one of the Vala Ulmo, and gets an Elf wife also. That is so unfair compared to poor Turin.

[Eonwe]

MIM petty-dwarf. Sorry but I think its neat when Hurin kills him on the treasure of Nargothrond. I don't know why really.

[Grond]

Feanor + Turin = double despicablity :(

[Bill the Pony]

eeuhm, Melkor, Ungoliant? (or is that too obvious?)

[baraka]

They had the worst dad in history
Let´s see if this is true:
With him into banishment went his seven sons, and northward in Valinor they made a strong place and treasury in the hills;
Well, i guess he was so awful with his sons, that he forced them to go with him, or did they went because of the love they felt for his father? To me, i doesn´t look like he forced them to go with him.
for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
So, the worst dad in history, is also the son who loved his father the most in history?:confused:
There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come up with force to his aid; and the Balrogs left him, and departed to Angband.
Well, i suppose he was such a terrible father that their sons would have left him to die, but they recovered his body when he fell with the Balrogs. I wonder why they did it, if he was such a terrible father.
Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
'We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we will keep. We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda.'
and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father.
Is this why you think that he was the worst father ever, because he told his sons to hold to their oath. I agree that the oath was evil and it should have been lifted but the fact that neither Fëanor nor his sons never gave means something. Much evil was done, i´ll admit, but the courage and determination of Fëanor and his sons is something to be proud of. No matter what, they never gave up, that is indeed something.
:)

[Hama]

Elves in general are wonderful creatures - fair, musical, strong, almost magical. But I intensely dislike those that are foolish with their power, or arrogant because of it. So arrogant that it leads to their own downfall. Elwe is an example of this, as is Feanor. Both had the potential to be intensely great and yet their arrogance caused more destruction than creation. The sons of Feanor were bound by an oath that they were not responsible for. Maedhros brought peace to the Noldor by giving up the kingship to Fingolfin. Maglor spared the lives of Elrond and Elros. I think that although they were terrible by leading the second and third kinslayings, they had their good sides. On the other hand, what Caranthir, Celegorm and Curufin did, in Nargothrond and Doriath was terrible. I also like Turin. He was a great hero, but apart from his bravery in battle, he was foolish in so many other respects. Tuor, although a mere man, managed to protect Gondolin and rise to a high position in Gondolin, on his own merit. Life was not so easy for him. I also sympathize with Maeglin. He did betray Gondolin in the end, but I believe others would have done the same in his position. Plus what he did to build up the city was a feat of its own. And lastly, Hurin is another character I intensely dislike. Although I pity him for the suffering he had to go through at the hands of Melkor, he it was that betrayed Gondolin, and by bringing the necklace of Nargothrond to Doriath, caused its downfall as well. His murder of Mim was also unnecessary. He caused the line of the Petty-dwarves to come to an end.

[Grond]

baraka, Feanor was a wus. Give it up.

[Camille]

Here we go! another Feanor's, pros and cons :p I forgot two characters more: Sauron and Melkor :mad: and Maeglin mmm that is all

[baraka]

baraka, Feanor was a wus. Give it up.
Grond, we have been in this discussion before, I know your views and you know mine. But i will leave you with this thought.
Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
You see, no one ever loved his father more than Fëanor, not even your Fingolfin, and Finwë always loved Fëanor the most. Do you think that there is a reason for it? I do?:)

[Bucky]

Feanor to me is the most disapointing character in terms of what the author did to/with him.

Here he is, built up as the greatest Elf ever, & out he goes in the first action back in ME.

Reminds me of Holyfield vs Tyson. All this build-up, then Tyson gets disqualified for biting Holyfield's ear off in the 2nd round.....

The character I really dislike is Maeglin's old man, The Dark Elf, Eol.

Another one who's easy to dislike is Glaurung. He seemed to so enjoy his work of destroying Hurin's children.

[Beleg Strongbow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bucky
[B]

The character I really dislike is Maeglin's old man, The Dark Elf, Eol.

`Same i don't like him either. I also don't like saeros and glaurung.

[tasar]

I hate Eol

[Bucky]

Funny, I was thibking later on & thought about Saeros too.

Pompus & obnoxious.

[Chymaera]

Turin; Morgorth didn't have to work that hard to curse him.

[Merry]

Originally posted by Bill the Pony
eeuhm, Melkor, Ungoliant? (or is that too obvious?)

Not at all, I hate Melkor for ruining all that is beautiful and for masterminding the fall of the Elves. He destroyed so many tribes and destroyed so many great cities. Characters such as Feaonor and Turin are victims of the hate that Melkor developed, to dislike them is unfair as they were bound by his lies and deceit.

[baraka]

Characters such as Feaonor and Turin are victims of the hate that Melkor developed, to dislike them is unfair as they were bound by his lies and deceit
Grond, Hmmmm. It´s just not me.:)

[Grond]

baraka, Melkor was merely the catalyst that spawned flaws that already existed in both Feanor's and Turin's character. Remember, Melkor couldn't create, merely corrupt; and, in Feanor and Turin, he found fertile grounds for corruption. :)

(baraka, you're gonna learn you can't win this argument with me.):D

[Merry]

But would Feanor and Turin have turned out so bad if Melkor (the catalyst) had not have corrupted them? I agree that Melkor influenced them but to say that they would have made the same/ similar mistakes is not right. (in my humble opinion).

Melkor awoke otherwise repressed sinful attitudes in weaker races.

[Grond]

Even without Melkor's influence, Feanor's pride was already showing. A showdown between Fingolfin and Feanor was brewing and all Melkor did was egg it on.

Also, let us not forget that Feanor absolutely, positively refused to give up the Silmarils (though he knew not that they were already stolen by Melkor) even to restore the Two Trees. That selfishness was not a product of Melkor. It was a product of Feanor.

As for Turin, his persona was equally corrupted before Melkor fine tuned it to betrayal. Middle-earth was not a perfect world nor was Valinor. Everyone seems to be taking the tact that had Melkor not existed, everything would have been perfect. I disagree, Vala, Maia, Elf and Man all had egos and pride, the main breeding grounds for discontent and from which the sins of anger, hatred and jealousy arise. Middle-earth didn't need Melkor, it would have been corrupted just fine without him, it just would have taken longer. ;)

[Merry]

Good point but I am not sure that things would have got so bad without Melkors influence. Yes the world would have seen hate and selfishness, but without Melkors influence this hate would have been countered directly by the Valars goodness and thus the evils that befell others would have been less.

Sorry all none-Christians out there but, Grond, would Adam and Eve have sinned had it not been for the direct influence of the Devil? I think that this is similar because the gods were in charge and ensured happiness until evil was set against them.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Merry
Good point but I am not sure that things would have got so bad without Melkors influence. Yes the world would have seen hate and selfishness, but without Melkors influence this hate would have been countered directly by the Valars goodness and thus the evils that befell others would have been less.

Sorry all none-Christians out there but, Grond, would Adam and Eve have sinned had it not been for the direct influence of the Devil? I think that this is similar because the gods were in charge and ensured happiness until evil was set against them. Sauron was still there. The Maia who were corrupted to become the Valaraukar (Balrogs) were still there. We may well have seen an alliance between Sauron and Osse whereby Sauron would rule the Lands of Middle-earth and Osse the Seas. Who knows? The Master-plan would have happened no matter what. I go back to my original assertion from the beginning of my existence, which is "If a perfect world was desired, Eru would simply have made Valinor perfect, with perfect beings to populate it." Eru made even the Vala and Maia with flaws whereby the Tale of the World could be told, exactly the same as ours.

I do agree with you that things would likely not have gotten as bad as quickly but to immortals like the Vala, Maia and Eldar, what's the difference in 1,000 years and 1,000,000 years? Evil would have come because it was programmed into the world already with the Music of Eru. The third theme is what brought Elf and Man into the world and it had no input from Melkor, Manwe or anyone else... just Eru. So for anyone to say that evil would not have existed but for Melkor is wrong.

[Merry]

I agree, I think there is no definite answer to this, as it is all an estimation. I do believe that freedom of thought and expression of will is the real bed of all evil and injurious things.

We just find it easier to blame Melkor because he masterminded the evil. I still hold a lot of sympathy for Feanor and Turin though, I am not completely converted!! :D :D

[Grond]

Merry, I too have great amounts of sympathy for both Feanor and Turin. The sympathy one feels towards the characters in no way justifies their actions. Call them pawns if you want, but I doubt either of them would have admitted to being a pawn of anyone other than themselves.

And, look at the great that was done in their name. But for Feanor, the Noldor would likely never have left Aman, so Middle-earth's history would have been vastly different. The same for Turin, had not all the troubles befallen him, where would the plot line of Middle-earth be?? I do love their characters because they "make" the story of Lord of the Rings possible (especially Feanor) but that doesn't make me admire them at all. I find it appalling that anyone would admire a murderer (and worse, a murderer of kin). The kinslaying at Aqualonde is something that will ever shade my opinion of his character and those who followed him.

[baraka]

I find it appalling that anyone would admire a murderer (and worse, a murderer of kin).
I do not think that admire is the correct word. I just feel that he is the "best" character in the Sil. All the things that he created were just "amazing". It just seems that all the elves were just sitting "idle" singing and "dancing".

[Grond]

Originally posted by baraka

I do not think that admire is the correct word. I just feel that he is the "best" character in the Sil. All the things that he created were just "amazing". It just seems that all the elves were just sitting "idle" singing and "dancing". baraka, aside from the wonderful Silmarils (which never did nothing for no one) and possibly the Palantari (although this is unconfirmed), name me something concrete that Feanor accomplished that was for good. You admire a person who defied the Powers because he thought "he knew better" how to handle Melkor and threw his life and the lives of his people away in pursuit of a vain and hopeless cause. I could admire his initiative if I could get over all of the other "negative traits" that Feanor admirer's seem to be able to rationalize away.

Sorry folks, but I just can't rationalize away the kinslaying at Aqualonde. baraka asks, "why couldn't they have lent their ships to the Noldor?" They could have but they didn't deserve to die for refusing. You can't shift blame on the Teleri Elves for that even if you want to. There is only one person responsible and that would be Feanor.

As I have said over and over concerning that aforementioned Feanor, I admired his commitment but hated his actions. :(

[Turgon]

Doesn't the Ainulindale make clear that Melkor was the only source of corruption amongst the 'powers'? and that those who later turned to evil were those that sat nigh to Melkor as he wove his own music in counterpoint to Iluvatar's? Iluvatar's theme was 'flawless' ere the theme of Melkor was woven. The themes that came after were all woven to combat that of Melkor's. Melkor's theme WAS the source of all that was corrupt in Arda.

[Camille]

Hello Grond!! I do not like Feanor either I think that the kinslaying was something very bad, but when you said that the silmarils never did nothing for none one that is not true, I can remember at leat one good action that the light in the silmarils did: Help Frodo when he was in the tunnel of Shelob, she was Frightened by that powerfull light and that gave to Frodo and Sam time to escape... at least just for a little while.
And I would like to know why you do not like Turin?? he is a very sad character But I like him I do not think his actions was as bad as feanor's action

[baraka]

Hello Grond. :)
baraka, aside from the wonderful Silmarils (which never did nothing for no one) and possibly the Palantari (although this is unconfirmed), name me something concrete that Feanor accomplished that was for good.
Ok, here it is: In his youth, bettering the work of Rúmil, he devised those letters which bear his name, and which the Eldar used ever after I think that the "enhancement" of the letter system is something very important and can be considered as "good". (Not in a spiritual sense, but a practical one.)
You admire a person who defied the Powers because he thought "he knew better" how to handle Melkor and threw his life and the lives of his people away in pursuit of a vain and hopeless cause.
I ask you, why it was a "vain and hopeless" cause. Because the Valar said to Fëanor that he couldn´t beat Melkor. So? I think that if people wouldn´t dare to do things that seem hopeless or unreachable, our whole civilization would never progress. (A man in the moon?, planes?, etc. In their respectives times, these things were deemed "unreachable" but the human mind and spirit made them realities.)
I could admire his initiative if I could get over all of the other "negative traits" that Feanor admirer's seem to be able to rationalize away.
Sorry folks, but I just can't rationalize away the kinslaying at Aqualonde. baraka asks, "why couldn't they have lent their ships to the Noldor?" They could have but they didn't deserve to die for refusing. You can't shift blame on the Teleri Elves for that even if you want to. There is only one person responsible and that would be Feanor. I do not rationalize that the kinslaying at Alqualondë. It´s not right period. My question was merely a question I always ask myself. I´m not shifting the blame on the Teleri, the people responsable for those acts are Fëanor and those who followed him and knew what was happening.
The thing that I admire about Fëanor is his desire to make something new, to always be in search of something. To never be content with who he was, always trying to be something more.
exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted.
He was not the average elf that was content to live all his "immortal" life in "Paradise" just singing (and perhaps dancing ) :) . There were few elves who created "new" things and in that, he had no rival. :)

[Turgon]

If I may add a little something to the Feanor debate - I would like to say that I admire Feanor in his role as an artisan and craftsman. He was the creator of many wondorous and beautiful things - he was an artist sans pareil. A genius in fact, but like most geniuses (or whatever the plural may be!!!) he was profoundly unbalanced, and the deeds he committed though were black and bloody. I've been reading the threads of Grond and Baraka apropos Feanor and Fingolfin and I've got to say it's top notch entertainment!!!

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Merry
But would Feanor and Turin have turned out so bad if Melkor (the catalyst) had not have corrupted them? I agree that Melkor influenced them but to say that they would have made the same/ similar mistakes is not right. (in my humble opinion).

Melkor awoke otherwise repressed sinful attitudes in weaker races.

I fail to see where Feanor was corrupted by Melkor. He wanted nothing to do with him and Feanor brought his own misery on himself by his rebellious attitude....The only thing Melkor did was provide Feanor with an object of hatred...


As for the least favorite character, I vote Turin.....He was pathetic and brought his own misery on himself....

[baraka]

I've been reading the threads of Grond and Baraka apropos Feanor and Fingolfin and I've got to say it's top notch entertainment!!!
Thank you for your kind words Turgon.:)

[Bucky]

>>>As for Turin, his persona was equally corrupted before Melkor fine tuned it to
betrayal.

Betrayal?
I don't seem to recall one time Turin purposely betrayed anyone.
He seems to be quite prideful, & the victim of a 'cursed' life orchestrated by Morgoth, but betrayal?
Maeglin was guilty of betrayal.
Your buddy Feanor too.
But, unless I'm missing something, I don't see Turin guilty of that.
A dangerous guy to get chummy with, yes, but betrayer? No.


>>>Sorry all none-Christians out there but, Grond, would Adam and Eve have
sinned had it not been for the direct influence of the Devil? I think that this
is similar because the gods were in charge and ensured happiness until evil
was set against them.

I believe Jews & Muslims also believe in Adam & Eve.....

And, yes, they would've sinned.
It was more an issue of self-will than, to quote Flip Wilson, "The devil made me do it."

Just like Melkor with the Noldor, Satan gave the right push in the right place to Adam & Eve.

[Merry]

All very good points but I just can't find myself blaming others (or pawns if you like) for being seduced into the evils of Melkor. Yes, Feanor and Turin shaped their own doom to some extent, but that doom was placed before them and encouraged by an extremely evil Morgorth.

If without Melkor Feanor did eventually sin by his own accord, then I would whole heartedly agree that he was to blame and deserves our scorn, however, I am not going to judge him on the basis of his actions (however evil) because they were not without influence.

(I think I have just repeated myself but using different words!!)
:D :D :D

[Merry]

Originally posted by Bucky
>>>
I believe Jews & Muslims also believe in Adam & Eve.....



My apologies, I did not mean to be ignorant.

[Eonwe]

Funny with all I ever gush about Fingolfin, my hero Gandalf when talking to Pippin about the one thing he would like to see is:

the unimaginable mind and hand of Feanor at work while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower...

So for all he did that was awful, even Gandalf admires the skill of this elf.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Eonwe
Funny with all I ever gush about Fingolfin, my hero Gandalf when talking to Pippin about the one thing he would like to see is:

the unimaginable mind and hand of Feanor at work while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower...

So for all he did that was awful, even Gandalf admires the skill of this elf. Notice that Gandalf is very specific in saying "...while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower...", well before Feanor's corruption.

[baraka]

Notice that Gandalf is very specific in saying "...while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower...", well before Feanor's corruption.
Well, i think that you could also say that after the "destruction" of the trees, Feanor didn´t create anything else.:), and that´s why Gandalf refers to that period in time. :)

[Bucky]

>>>the unimaginable mind and hand of Feanor at work while both the White Tree
and the Golden were in flower...

Eonwe, it's scary; I was thinking the same thing when someone commented to the effect of 'what did Feanor do that was so great'.....

As specific as Gandalf is in noting that the trees where in flower, reality is Gandalf could've mentioned 1000 different things going on at that time. Like being "back in Lorien (from whence he came) while the trees were in flower"
But, he chose 'the unimaginable mind & hand of Feanor'.
And, note, he said seeing 'the mind & hand of Feanor', not seeing the trees.

Why?
One of 2 reasons or both:
1. Because Feanor was the greatest of the children of Illuvator.
2. Feanor most likely made the Palantiri, or at least unlocked the secret for those who did.
The clear inference in The Silmarillion is that Feanor made them himself.
Is it possible that just as Aragorn had a 'right' to use the Palantir, that they might be more easily 'tuned' into their rightful creator's visions from the past?

[Eonwe]

I really don't know about it being able to tune to Feanor easier than something else... I just don't know.

I took this statement of Gandalf a long time ago to be a pure statement of wonder, such a wonder that an Ainur would have for the Children of Illuvatar, in that what Feanor does is what an Ainur never could do, because it is something new and different (the skill) from Illuvatar.

Notice that the Ainur spring from Illuvatar's thought (just like Athena springs from the head of Zeus, and dare I say Christ begotten, not made, from God. No I'm not saying Christ is like Athena or Gandalf:(). And the Children are very different from them, so it is like seeing for them a brand new piece of the thought of Illuvatar.

In essence, JRRT is really good at showing the bad side of science, but in having Gandalf talk about Feanor in this way, he is showing the wonder of what that pure science could do, how it could inflame even the curiosity of the Ainur (a god).

And it echoes the feelings of the Ainur while waiting patiently (and sometimes not, like Aule) for their brief vision of the wonder of these Children to become real.

ok just IMHO.

[Bucky]

Yeah, I agree with you.

Gandalf does say "the unimaginable hand of Feanor" after all.

I just thought I'd add another possibility for the anti-Feanor faction......

[Hama]

I think that Feanor and Turin are, unlike Melkor or Sauron on one hand and Fingolfin and Finrod on the other, are not portrayed as being completely good and completely evil. Both have their good sides to them - Feanor is loving and skilled, Turin pious and brave. But I do not think of them as likable characters. Both had flaws, and had it not been for the fact that they fought against Melkor, and were in fact some of his greatest opponents, they would have gone down in ME history as being selfish and generally despicable.

[Bucky]

The one difference I see with Feanor & Turin is that Turin was SPECIFFICALLY cursed & destroyed by Morgoth to get even with Hurin, whereas Feanor was a 'means to an end' for Morgoth.

Turin called himself 'The Master of Fate, by fate mastered'. In other words, he was under a curse & nothing that he began as a good thing ever turned out good & was generally bad news for those close to him. His main 'bad' character flaw was his stubborn pride that refused Thingol's pardon & got Nargothrod desroyed.

Now Feanor, he was the son of the King, the greatest of the Children of Illuvator.
Morgoth wanted what he had (The Silmarills) & wanted to use him to drive a wedge between the Noldor & the Valar, as well as among the Noldor themselves. But, Morgoth also tried to twist many others of the Noldor. Feanor's rashness, pride and paranoia, based in his 'possessive nature and/or selfishness, just made him the most sucessful target of Morgoth's lies.

[Grond]

Bucky, I was hoping to add something more to your ideas in the previous post but find that you have pretty much said it all. Well done!!

:):):):)

[Maedhros]

The character that i least like is Thingol. I mean my grandfather Finwe was on of his closest friends and when we came to ME he didn´t even open his realm to talk to us. He only opened his realm to those of Finarfin´s house.:(
What a great Friend!:eek:

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros
The character that i least like is Thingol. I mean my grandfather Finwe was on of his closest friends and when we came to ME he didn´t even open his realm to talk to us. He only opened his realm to those of Finarfin´s house.:(
What a great Friend!:eek: And Thingol's reception got even cooler when he discovered from Finrod that your father and brothers had slaughtered hundreds of his kin at Aqualonde. How would you feel towards someone that had tried to murder your brothers and their people??? I thought so.

[Maedhros]

At that time, he didn´t know. And how about my uncle Fingolfin and my friend Fingon? They didn´t know how the battle began. He just threw his friendship with his friend in the garbage.

I think that Finarfin´s son also took part in that battle.:)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros
At that time, he didn´t know. And how about my uncle Fingolfin and my friend Fingon? They didn´t know how the battle began. He just threw his friendship with his friend in the garbage.

I think that Finarfin´s son also took part in that battle.:) Fingolfin took no part in the battle. Finarfin and his people came up late and thought that the Teleri had attacked Feanor and jumped in to defend his people. He made a mistake... your father did not. Your father meant to kill the Elves of Aqualonde and received the Doom of Mandos because of it.

[Maedhros]

Finarfin and his people came up late and thought that the Teleri had attacked Feanor and jumped in to defend his people.
but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel; some thought indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor at the bidding of the Valar.
Although in this passage, my unlce Fingolfin is not mentioned as an individual, it could be that he took part in that battle.
He made a mistake... your father did not. Your father meant to kill the Elves of Aqualonde and received the Doom of Mandos because of it.
Yes, my father made a mistake and i have thought long about it in the Halls of Mandos.
But let´s say that my uncle Fingolfin took no part in that battle and was innocent, then why didn´t Thingol granted him permission to enter his realm. It was not only me and my brothers, but also the descendants of Fingolfin.:)