battle of 5 or 6 armys?

[Dûndorer]

do anyone think that the war should have been called the battle of 6 armys?

1)elfs
2)men
3)dwarfs
4)orcs
5)wargs
*6)eagles*

that would be 6.

[Lillyaundra]

Yes their were 6 types of creaturs, but the wargs should not count because there only used like we use horses. As a ride.

[Dûndorer]

thats true but i just wantted some other peoples thoughts. because i wasnt sure.

[Lillyaundra]

By the way Welcome!!!

Thoughts are what this forum is all about!!:D

[Legolam]

But the eagles didn't fight in my recollection ...

And even if they did, they were LATE!!! :rolleyes:

[Mormegil]

I always thought that the Wargs and Orcs counted as one army.

[Lillyaundra]

I agree they are one army, but they had the fighting power of two.

[Beleg Strongbow]

I would say that the eagles didn't count. Welcome:) :D :cool:

[Dûndorer]

yea, if any of the armys dont count i would have gone with the eagles beacase their not on any ones side. thier just against the orcs.

but i do think that wargs were a part of it. becase if wargs and orcs count as one army then it would be called the battle of 3 armys...

1) wargs + orcs
2) men + elfs + dwarfs
3) eagles

if the wargs and orcs are together shouldn't every one be put together on the side that they were on.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

If the wargs were simply "mounts", then it's reasonable to lump them together with their riders.

After all, we don't count Patton's tanks as one army, and the tank crews as another!

[Dûndorer]

yes true, i dont have my book with me but, cant the wargs attack on their own. werent the wargs the first ones to attack when bilbo, gandalf and the dwarvs were in the trees?¿?¿?¿?

so, i would say that what your saying is true if the wargs were just like a pony or a horse or something. but i never seen a pony attack someone.

[DGoeij]

Good ole Bill gave mr. Ferny one heck of a kick.;)
The Wargs chased Gandalf, Bilbo and the Dwarves up in the trees, but then came the orcs to do them in. I'd say the bad guys represent one single army. The men, elves and dwarves operated as different armies, even if the elves and men arrived at the same time. Together with the eagles that makes 5.
Unless we wish to take Beorn into account. IMHO that is an army by himself. :D

[Legolam]

And before anyone jumps in here and says that tanks attack people, they don't do it under their own steam ie autonomously (I've always wanted to use that word! :D)

[Dûndorer]

i still think that the wargs and orcs are seprate.

i think that the eagles are nutral, because i remember gandalf or maybe it was someone else im not sure but one of them said that the eagles hate the orcs and arent on anyones side. or something like that. i wish i had my book to look it up, but my friend is barrowing it for a while.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Barrowing it? I sure hope he doesn't get caught by wights!

[DGoeij]

LOL, Donnie B. In that case you can say bye bye to the book, Dûndorer. I think I understand what you mean, but try to type a little slower. My English is fine, but not that good.;)

I think we are talking about armies here, not sides. And if one wishes to consider the Wargs a seperate army, I'd say the bats are one too. Which makes it the Battle of the Seven Armies.

But IMHO, an army can be a very diverse entity. The orcish army was made up of foot-soldiers, Orcs on Wargs (wargs on their own?) and bats. Still, I think it is one single army.

[Grond]

'So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves.'
The Hobbit 17 The Clouds Burst

When in doubt, always go to the book. The Eagles, in the author's opinion, were not construed to be an army and were not counted.

[DGoeij]

I should have read the book again. I never knew that the Eagles weren't considered an army by professor Tolkien himself. Thanks Grond.

Personally I'd consider the Eagles as an army though. Even if they didn't use any kind of weapons (besides beak and claws, that is).

[Grond]

I doubt that the Eagles were there in any substantial numbers. There value was in knocking the Orcs from the heights and instilling fear in general. (Nothing like an aerial assault to strike fear in the hearts of the enemy.) I would surmise that there were no more than twenty or thirty Eagles and that would hardly comprise an Army in my opinion. So, I guess I'll have to side with the good Professor on this one. :)

[Durin of moria]

What about the bats? they were there.
Sure they did not kill anyone, but they had to poop some where.

[Hama]

What about Beorn. I think he should count as an army in which case it should be battle of the eight armies...
And what about the hobbit. It should be nine really...

[Dûndorer]

ok, so now im confused. although im going to have to go with what grond said.

[Lillyaundra]

Originally posted by Hama
What about Beorn. I think he should count as an army in which case it should be battle of the eight armies...
And what about the hobbit. It should be nine really...

wellit was only one hobbit, and one Beorn so can that really count as a ARMY????

[Hama]

Well, he did single-handedly change the tide of battle. So perhaps, one can argue, yes.

[DGoeij]

More single-clawedly, but you're right, that one-bear army crushed the Orcish army like a nut.

[Dûndorer]

dictionary...

ARMY- n. (1) a large, orginized body of soldiers for waging war, especialy on land. (2) a millitary unit

does that help with the one man army thing.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Bilbo got knocked out and didn't do anything so he wasn't in the battle and i think beren and the eagles turned the tide of the war but you dont have to do that with an army. I would say they weren't an army. Wouldn't Beren come under men?? Isn't he from the race of beor??

[Lillyaundra]

True, but you can destory the entire planet with one bomb. But does that one bomb count as an army??

[DGoeij]

I think a bomb is a weapon, used by an army;) Anyway, Beorn wasn't part of the men from the Lake City.

[Lillyaundra]

true enough. I know that they wer epowerfull, and changered the outcome of the battle, but do they count as an army???? I say no because one army is made of more then one creature. One creature can not make an army, not alone.

[DGoeij]

From www.yourdictionary.com :
Main Entry: ar.my
Pronunciation: 'är-mE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English armee, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin armata -- more at ARMADA
Date: 14th century
Inflected Form(s): plural armies
1 a : a large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land b : a unit capable of independent action and consisting usually of a headquarters, two or more corps, and auxiliary troops c often capitalized : the complete military organization of a nation for land warfare
2 : a great multitude
3 : a body of persons organized to advance a cause

I guess an army is supposed to be more than one person/creature, before it can be called an army. So Beorn was a mighty warrior, but not an entire army.
In this sense I'd say the Eagles weren't an army in the real sense either.

[darkknight-nyc]

Originally posted by Durin of moria
What about the bats? they were there.
Sure they did not kill anyone, but they had to poop some where.

Use of chemical warfare? :eek:

[Camille]

It is only the 5 armys the eagles were at last and did not participate as the others 5.

[Durin of moria]

hold on now
i just happen to know about one man armys
i myself am a one man army
so i think that a man who is not quite a man
but more like a bear should count as an army

by the way how many armys ae we up to now

[Dûndorer]

i say we bring JRRT back to life and ask him. j/k

this thread should be called: the battle of 5, 6, 7, or 8 armys

hahaha

[Dûndorer]

i forgotto say that if this is part of what army meens

a large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land

that rules out the eagles. they are in the air.

so we have 5 armies, 1 air force(eagles), 1 warrior(beorn), 2 groups of watchers(birds & bats), and what else?

[Durin of moria]

you know the bats were in such a great force that they made the sky dark so that would have helped the orcs
so the bats did help
and on the wolves they are not an army
any more than horses should be because the orcs rode them like a man rides a horse and like a the wolves the horse can hurt people
ever heard of warhorse

[Dûndorer]

hmmmmmmm, yes but i never seen a group of horses attack by themselvs. oh man, an answerless question.

[Viceras Daydark]

Of the five armies

1)Dwarves
2)Men
3)Elfs

vs

4)Orcs
5)Wargs

The idea the book gave me was that the Eagles weren't initially involved in the battle. Its hard for me to recollect as it was a while ago when I read The Hobbit, but I would definately say of my own opinion that the Orcs and Wargs were two different armies, allied, yes, but not the same. Though the Orcs did ride the Wargs, the wargs were very capable on their own of being a force to be reckoned with. The Orcs simply rode the Wargs to the Lonely Mountain as it made their travelling swifter, and two heads are also better than one. I do not doubt that after their rider was slain, the wargs continued on with the battle.

As my memory is quite bad, it being so long since I read The Hobbit, I seem to recollect the Eagles taking no major part in the battle, if at all, and if they did, I believe it was just a little "clean up" job of the remaining "evil" forces.

-Viceras Daydark

PS: This post is in response only to the original post. I read the first page of posts, but didn't get to the 2nd or 3rd, and simply wanted to put in my input as it seems most people counted the eagles and not the wargs, and I wanted more voice for this theory. If you agree, thank you, and if you don't, books and imagination leaves room enough for different views. While I won't agree with your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it and yall may think I am wrong as well :)

[Rohansangel]

The Wargs are not counted as them and the Goblins were basically on the same side, but the Wargs were only used as transportation.

And if you really want to count in the Wargs, the Eagles didn't fight anyway. Whatever works for you.

~The Angel of Rohan

[DGoeij]

I found this in the book:

Bilbo has been found an brought bakc to the encampment and hears about how the battle came to an end.
The Hobbit, chapter The Return Journey,
(typing errors on my account)
The Eagles had long had suspicion of the goblins'mustering; from their watchfulness the movements in the mountains could not be alltogether hid. So they had gathered in great numbers, under the great Eagle of the MIsty Mountains; and at length smelling battle from afar they had come speeding down the gale in the nick of time. They it was who dislodged the goblins from the mountains-slopes, casting them over the percipices, or driving them down shrieking and bewildered among their foes. It was not for long before they had freed the Lonely Mountain, and elves and men on either side of the valley could come at last to the help of the battle below.
(end quote)

The Eagles did fight, and in great numbers. It was not enough even then and it took the coming of Beorn to turn the tide for the dwarves, elves and men.

[Durin of moria]

yeah they were knocking them goblins off the mountain and if i do recall a large force of the goblins went over the mountain in two forces of the goblins
so the number of birds must have been big enough to call an army

maybe it is called the battle of 5 armys
because it sounds better than the
battle of 6 oh wait maybe 7 hold on
i got it

[Grond]

I'll post this again as we have the author's own words to settle this argument. Here is what the author said in "The Hobbit".

from the chapter The Clouds Burst,
"So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves.

Game, set and match to J. R. R. Tolkien.

[Durin of moria]

no bacause there was more than 5 armys

[DGoeij]

Well, professor Tolkien off course merely described/translated the events in ME from the books by Bilbo.;)
Besides, when event get a name, it's not always accurate. In the Netherlands whe have the history of the Eighty Years War. Actually, it was 'only' 68 years of warfare and a 12 year truce. But if you wish to find any reference about this war, the search term is Eighty Years War. Likewise, the Battle of the Five armies started of as a battle between five armies, and was remebered by that name.

[Dûndorer]

ummmm, im from the U.S.A. and have no idea what your talking about. because you said that the battle began with 5 armys, didnt it start with 4, im not sure tho.

[Rohansangel]

I don't see what being from the USA has to do with it ... But anyway it was a battle of 5 armies since the Wargs and the Goblins were "one": that is, the wargs were only steeds.

~The Angel of Rohan

[Dûndorer]

when i said i lived in the USA i ment that i didnt know what DGoeij was saying about the netherlands. sorry.

[DGoeij]

Well according to the ones who where there (or professor Tolkien) the battle began with:
Elves, Men and Dwarves on one side and Goblins and Wargs on the other side. Counting five armies. The author/characters in the book considered it a battle of five armies. Maybe incorrectly, but they did.

See the quote given by Grond:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from the chapter The Clouds Burst,
"So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The example from Dutch history was a mere example. A war not lasting eighty years for real, but nevertheless named that way afterwards: The Eighty Years War.

Now, if we think they shouldn't have called the Wargs an army, and the eagles should have been called an amry, is off course free to discuss. But the event was named the Battle of the Five Armies.

[Dûndorer]

oh, OK i get it now. i see what you mean.

[DGoeij]

Great.:) I'm sorry if I was not clear at first. Writing down what you mean is hard enough, and doing it in English doesn't make it easier.
Hey, I like your quote.

[LadyGaladriel]

Hey If JRRT says its 5 then its 5 . y should we argue?!Lol

[Dûndorer]

thank you. :)

although i dont know if you are talking about my old one or my knew one.

[DGoeij]

I guess the old one, because I remember another.:)

[Bilbo Baggins57]

No, i don't think it should be called the Battle of 6 Armies. The eagles weren't really fighting. They came to help the men/elves/dwarves army. I don't agree w/ whoever said that the Wargs didn't count as an army. They were allied w/ the orcs in order 2 get revenge 4 when Gandalf set the pine cones on fire & threw them @ the Wargs so Thorin & CO. could get away safely. But really, all armies on each side should be counted seperately. Although the orcs were riding on the Wargs, the wolves still fought in the army.

[Dûndorer]

i just wanted to say that i made this thread when i started posting here, and i am happy about other peoples views on the subject. im also happy for everyone treating like a friend, even though when i first came here i didnt know any of you. (i gotta get some of my friends i hang out with to post here). now back to the subject...

i think i agree with you Bilbo Baggins57.and i think eagles came because they hate orcs. not to help anyone else, just themselves.

[Theoden]

I think that it should be called six armies because the eagles played a big part in the whole outcome of the War of the Ring.

-me

[Earnil]

The Wargs and teh Goblins were really two armies. The Goblins themselves actually rode on wolves while there was also an army of Wargs with the Goblin army. So with the Elves, Dwarves, and Men the Wargs and Goblins made up the 5 armies.

I really don't think you could include the Eagles. I doubt there would have only been very many of them. Tolkien didn't exactly enter them into his books in just any place.

The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness.
- Letter 210, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

With the Eagles being incredibly powerful creatures I doubt there would have been very many of them in the assault on the Goblin and Warg armies at the Lonely Mountain. I think at most there would have been 10 of the Great Eagles to deal with the Warg and Goblin armies.

Do you think a small number of very large Eagles could be called an army?;)

[Legolas_lover12]

i don't really think that you could call bilbo an "army". not even a "one man army". he was knocked out and invisible the whole battle. the most he would've done was maybe trip a few orcs.:rolleyes:
i think i would count beorn as a one man army.
and it said the eagles came in "great numbers". i don't really know what it meant by "great numbers". but, to me, that means at least 50. wouldn't that be considered a small army? so, i count the eagles as an army.
i count the wargs as an army because they can attack on their own.
and i think it's obvious that the men, dwarves, elves, and orcs are each an army.
so i would call it the battle of the 7 armies. :D

[redline2200]

the eagles weren't really an army. There was a lot of them but I don't think that they could be considered an army .

[Beleg]

I think The eagle's were an army. They played an important part in the battle. They were active in it.

Seeing the sudden gleam in the gloom Bilbo looked round. He gave a great cry:
he had seen a sight that made his heart leap, dark shapes small yet majestic
against the distant glow.
“The Eagles! The Eagles!” he shouted. “The Eagles are coming!”
Bilbo’s eyes were seldom wrong. The eagles were coming down the wind,
line after line, in such a host as must have gathered from all the eyries of
the North.


So the host was gathered from all the eyeries of north. i doubt if it would have been 10!

That, however, was a little
delayed, so in the meantime I will tell something of events. The Eagles had
long had suspicion of the goblins’ mustering; from their watchfulness the
movements in the mountains could not be altogether hid. So they too had
gathered in great numbers, under the great Eagle of the Misty Mountains; and
at length smelling battle from afar they had come speeding down the gale in
the nick of time. They it was who dislodged the goblins from the mountainslopes,
casting them over precipices, or driving them down shrieking and
bewildered among their foes. It was not long before they had freed the Lonely
Mountain, and elves and men on either side of the valley could come at last to
the help of the battle below.

so this shows that they took an important part in the battle. they dislodged the goblins from the rear and the mountain slope or else the allies would have been defeated.

I dont think bilbo was an army. (LMAO)

Beorn? Well i dont think that should be considered an Army. For he was a man, even if a shape shifter and represented the line of men.

And he was alone.


In that last hour Beorn himself had appeared - no one knew how or from
where. He came alone, and in bear’s shape; and he seemed to have grown almost
to giant-size in his wrath. The roar of his voice was like drums and guns; and
he tossed wolves and goblins

[Lady Aragorn]

it was definetly a battle of 5 armys. There was:

1. The Dwarves from the Iron Hills

2. The men from Lake Town

3. The Wood Elves

4. Thorin's company

5. The Goblins (the Wargs don't really count b/c the were just like the Goblins horses)

The eagles just kinda showed up, and they didn't fight,t hey just scared away the Goblins.

[Celebthôl]

nah the dwarves counted as one army the iron hill dwarves and thorins company! and it was the wild wargs

"So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."

~The Hobbit 17 The Clouds Burst~

Thôl

(now please let it rest)!