The puppets of Morgoth

[Eonwe]

When Illuvatar catches Aule in "a hall under the Mountains of Middle-Earth" (the precursor of Moria?) just after he creates the dwarves, he says to Aule:

"For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle."

So if the dwarves were not "given life" by Illuvatar (free will or free choice?) they would have waited on commands from Aule...

Is this passage reflected in any of the creatures or behaviour of the creatures of Morgoth? For instance when Sauron sees Frodo in Sammath Naur claiming the Ring, all of his forces are without will to fight, and are unorganized, and flee.

???

[Hama]

Firstly, I think it is not until the time that the Ring is destroyed that the creatures of Sauron are filled with the crazed fear. They were under Sauron's power for sure, and that was linked to the power of the One. One must also remember (there are tonnes of threads dealing with this) that Melkor did not create the orcs, trolls, etc. because the evil powers could not. They could only breed and corrupt existing life forms. Aule created the dwarves. So Aule's control of the dwarves is relatively unique.

[Eonwe]

I guess I understand that evil can only corrupt, but I don't see the difference between Melkor and Aule in the beginning, except that Melkor was more powerful. I think he could have done the same thing as Aule, except his creations would be "idle" when his will was not driving them, and of course Illuvatar would not have given them true life. I find this passage interesting, not saying that Orcs, et. al. were creations of Morgoth, just find the will driven aspect something that has echoes throughout the Sil and LotR.

[Beleg Strongbow]

The dwarves were brought alive by iluvatar who held the imperishable flame otherwise they would just be drones.

[Merry]

Is that true? I thought the dwarves crouched in fear as Iluvator/ Aule went to smash them with a hammer. Surely drones would not fear for their lives like these ones did? I believe that Aule did create living beings but wasn't allowed to introduce them to the world until the Elves (the firstborn) had been born.

But I am still confused why Aule could create but Melkor couldn't.

[baraka]

But I am still confused why Aule could create but Melkor couldn't.
I don´t think that Melkor could not create, it think it was the fact that Melkor, being so jealous of his brethen blinded that side of himself.:) My 2 cents.

[Merry]

Hmm?

Melkor was a clever fox and didn't usually miss a trick when it came to making his evil army. I'm not convinced that Melkor overlooked the fact he had that power.

[Eonwe]

I'm with you Merry. Melkor may seem like a bumbling giant with Grond, but he had the Silmarils in his crown and took on all the other Valar combined. I hate him.

What if the following were true:

1) Melkor can't make new things with real life, so he grabs things that live already
2) He corrupts them and adds in his power to make them not only living, but most of their raw power from him, which his will controls.

So, in the beginning a dragon could have been a big ol' reptile, Melkor takes it and uses the Illuvatar real-life part so that it can reproduce, but puts in his own creation part that is greatly evil and is controlled by him.

The books say he is much reduced at the end of the First Age, since he has put so much of his raw power into the creatures he corrupted.

Creepy...

[Hama]

I think you are on the right track Eonwe. Melkor probably did do such things. But one could not create life without the permission of Iluvatar, and that was not granted to Melkor. The only time that was done apart from the creation of the Eldar and Edain was the creation of the dwarves at the prayer of Aule, and the creation of the Ents because of the wishes of Yavanna. Melkor lost a number of his Vala privileges by rebelling from the thought of Iluvatar, one of them being that he could not change his physical form and another being that he understood fear. Perhaps one of them was not creating life on his own.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Merry
Is that true? I thought the dwarves crouched in fear as Iluvator/ Aule went to smash them with a hammer. Surely drones would not fear for their lives like these ones did? I believe that Aule did create living beings but wasn't allowed to introduce them to the world until the Elves (the firstborn) had been born.

But I am still confused why Aule could create but Melkor couldn't.




Yes it is Ask Grond. Grond and Ancalagon had a long debate about this. Sorry but i have forgotten which thread it was. Bu't i'm sure that without the flame things couldn't be brought to life and have a mind of their own. That is why melkor spent so long looking for it.

[Bucky]

Melkor's creations would no longer carry the 'Illuvator stamp of approval'.

Aule made the Dwarves.
But Illuvator made the Dwarves have life of their own.
He wasn't about to do that to something Melkor made like 'Alien'......
But, Melkor could still 'pervert' already living beings. Even later on, look what happened to the Elvish 'thralls' captured & thrown in the dungeons of Angband.


BTW, Do you think if Aule went out & made another 'race' after that, Illuvator would've given them life?
I doubt it.
Aule had repented, realizing his folly.
To do so again would have put him into the realm of rebellion to Illuvator, an area known only to Melkor & his henchmen.

[Orome]

Someone mentioned about the ents. It is mentioned how the dwarves got their own will but with the ents of Yavanna how did that happen? Is there something I missed on that or is it not mentioned in specific terms?

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Orome
Someone mentioned about the ents. It is mentioned how the dwarves got their own will but with the ents of Yavanna how did that happen? Is there something I missed on that or is it not mentioned in specific terms?

Treebeard told M&P that the elves awoke them long ago and for that they were grateful. Was this Eru's way of showing His creation's superiority over Yavannah's? The Ents were created as a breathing form of ME that still needed the power of Eru (in the form of the Elves, the first born) to develop into what they were.


I'm really not making any sense here, am I?

[Orome]

Thanks Thorin. I had forgotten about what was said about the elves awakening the ents. How you put it in the question about it having to be the elves awakening them is an interesting poser. You are making sense quite a bit on the question. I am not sure if I have an answer for that one but it is thought provoking.