Why didn't the Valar receive the One Ring?

[Úlairi]

:D :D :D In the Council of Elrond it was suggested that they should sail the Ring over to the "The Lords of the West" i.e. the Valar. But it was said that the Ring would not be received. Yet the Valar were so worried about the domination of Sauron, that they sent five wizards (or possibly even more than that) over to ME to stop him. Why do you think this is???:D :D :D

[Eonwe]

This is directly explained I think by Elrond in the CoE. To paraphrase (since I don't have the books), he says that too often the free peoples of ME have turned that way to solve their problems. The Valar after Numenor are no longer directly involved, they leave it up to the people of ME to correct their problems.

So the Valar in the Third Age sent the Istari to guide people to do the right things against evil, not to counter the force of evil directly.

[Merry]

That is really mean, the Valar didn't have to do much, just sit on the ring and keep it safe. In fact, I'm sure Manwe could have unmade it within seconds.

Lets abandon the world to darkness and hatred shall we??

Yay the Valar! :mad:

[Anduril]

I think Eonwe has a good point...
In fact, If we can remember what happened in Numenoré, thus we can have a whole idea of the nature of men...

To this people (men) were given by the Valar several gifts, power, wisdom , longevity...and this guys, at the end, wasted them due to greed and perversion...

I think at this point, The Valar decided play a role as guides, not saviors...

[Orome]

Hmmmm, have to think about what Merry is saying. There are times when we have to use the gifts we have given to make the best of things as they are, but wouldn't it seem at least responsible the Valar take care of their own so to speak? Leaving mortals to clean up the messes of greater ones the greater ones themselves have not cleaned up seems quite nearly negligent and irresponsible if you think about it from a responsibility standpoint. Let mortals deal with mortal problems. Let the higher ones take care of their own problems which were not fixed. Whatever could be said of temptations Sauron made at various times which were accepted by any race in any form should not have been a temptation they should have faced. Mortal temptations are quite enough to overcome in any reasonable form but those offered by greater beings should not be faced. At least the Istari being sent seems some parallel for the tempation Sauron would make in that there was influence toward the opposite path. Seems like their arrival was after too much of Sauron's impact was already set in motion and direct influence from the Valar was not as much there to offset it in ways. Not very balanced seemingly. Let greater ones against whom our power is not so much act more directly against greater ones againtst whom are power is not so much. The rest is test enough!

[Legolam]

But what's the point in turning to someone higher up every time you have a problem. At some point, you have to stand on your own two feet. Everyone has to learn to sort out their problems, or else no-one has any accountability. The Valar were acting as guides, as Anduril said, but they can't take responsibility for the actions of men all the time. The fact that the citizens of ME had to sort it out themselves also helped them grow and mature and appreciate the difference between good and evil. If the Valar had simply stepped in, they wouldn't have learnt this important point.

[Merry]

I would agree with you if the natural inhabitants of M-E had caused the problems themselves. However, Sauron was a Maia and was picking on people who were inferior in power. Leaving M-E to defend themselves against Sauron is almost like letting a wolf have free reign in a chicken coup, the match is not a fair one.

I think that the Valar had the responsibility to defend the children of Eru against any unfair competition.

[Anduril]

I think this is a question of "pares" (similar people in rank, in latin)...

who can pervert a Vala? a Maia?..I don't think so...

I think that in certain point of the history, every nation,every country, every bunch of people has been obligated to fight against external forces (even stronger than themselves)...that's the only way to learn, and to grow up.
If everything is given to you, you won't appreciate your own effort or your own growth.
I you don't know light, you can easily be perverted by darkness.
If you don't know darkness, you can't see light.

Hard, but real.

In fact, I think Sauron knew that he couldn't pervert Vala...so, he tried the easier way in the order to damage The Creation...pervert man, dwarves, elfs...

[Merry]

Originally posted by Anduril

In fact, I think Sauron knew that he couldn't pervert Vala...so, he tried the easier way in the order to damage The Creation...pervert man, dwarves, elfs...

Therefore that is a backdoor way of attcking the Valar, if you attack the children of god you are in effect, attacking god. But the Valar did nothing....??

[Anduril]

They helped men in the past...example again...Numenor, and the battle before The Gift..pfuff...ouch...

And we demostrated our "high capability of being corrupted"...

We're not the children of The Vala, we're children of Eru...The Vala were, since the very beginning, the guides of Arda. They defeated Arda for the coming "boarders"...

This is a matter of perception.

I think the Vala were guides, more than saviors, if Eru (and I'm going to launch a very bold statement)didn't thought we needed him...who were the Vala to disagree with him?
And I'm responding with another question to ilustrate my point: Why Sauron , as a Maia, as a demigod, as an ubermensch, didn't offer a ring to Eru?...too complicated. Even impossible...
The Vala helped us, we "failed"...If you are all the time helping your son, he will get the custom and he'll never grow up or will never grow stronger.

[Orome]

Going back to the original question about why the Valar did not receive the ring, right or wrong for what their overall involvement was would it have only been a non-solution in ways or possibly kept things in some mad cycle in middle earth. It had to be decided one way or the other ultimately. Even if the ring was kept from Sauron's reach then Sauron if cast down would have his power actually preserved in a way in the land of the Valar itself. Kind of an irony in that. As long as the ring existed somewhere each time Sauron was thrown down he could regather his power again. That would have been quite a mess and the Valar would have themselves contributed to it had they taken the ring. So while it was not ensured that Sauron would never gain full power it was also not ensured that Sauron would continue on and on and on as long as his ring was existing. The only way
around this I suppose is if the Valar themselves would have destroyed the ring.

[Úlairi]

:D :D :D That's exactly my point, exactly! They could have destroyed the One Ring if it was given to them in an instant. That would end Sauron, yet they did not receive, which brings us back to the thread, why didn't they receive the One Ring and help the peoples of Middle-earth out one last time before the return of Melkor!:D :D :confused:

[Úlairi]

Hey people! Post!

[Úlairi]

This thought just occured to me. If the Valar weren't willing to receive the One Ring because of the fact that they believed that they had helped the peoples of ME one too many times, then why did they send the Istari if they weren't willing to help?

[Anarchist]

Well to begin with, personally I don't like some of the Valar. They let Morgoth do his own for such a long time and cause such pain and sadness before they punished him. It would be a small matter for them to undo the ring. But think it the other way. After the "attack" of the Numenorians (actually they didn't achieved an attack), they became more distant from the people of ME. They let them do their own without interfeering. I believe they had offered enough help. But, if all things failed, I believe that they would finally help, punishing once again the Dark Lord, just like they did with Morgoth.

[Zale]

Remember that Sauron may not have been the Valar's only 'problem' in Middle-Earth; Tolkien only wrote about the North-West corner! There may have been loads of other things (including Morgoth-corrupted Maia) to deal with. Therefore, they could not devote all of their time to Sauron.

[Úlairi]

Very good opinion Zale! But I believe that most of the southern parts of ME were wasteland.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ulairi
Very good opinion Zale! But I believe that most of the southern parts of ME were wasteland.




Is that right Ulairi can u tell me where u got that info?? I'm interested in that part of the world and there aint that much info on it.

[Úlairi]

There is no info on it Beleg, it is just stated that is was mostly wasteland. BtW, this thread was abondoned long ago (a couple of months now) and I do not wish to post in it anymore Beleg, so, just don't post in it. I hate seeing posts where my happy and lovey-dovey smiley faces still exist. I cannot believe I was once like that. I gave up the smiley faces when I reached Senior Member status.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ulairi
There is no info on it Beleg, it is just stated that is was mostly wasteland. BtW, this thread was abondoned long ago (a couple of months now) and I do not wish to post in it anymore Beleg, so, just don't post in it. I hate seeing posts where my happy and lovey-dovey smiley faces still exist. I cannot believe I was once like that. I gave up the smiley faces when I reached Senior Member status.




Yes how did you change that from to "senior member" 2 "lord of...."? I don't know how to do it:) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .:confused:

[Úlairi]

You go to your user control panel, go to edit profile on the toolbar at the top. You will go to your profile and you scroll down to where it says: "Custom User Title" and you can change it in there! You seemed to have missed out on quite a lot since you have been gone! BtW, the WB at one time even got rid of the post count!

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ulairi
You go to your user control panel, go to edit profile on the toolbar at the top. You will go to your profile and you scroll down to where it says: "Custom User Title" and you can change it in there! You seemed to have missed out on quite a lot since you have been gone! BtW, the WB at one time even got rid of the post count!



Yes i geuss so. Thanks alot Ulairi

[Úlairi]

No problem.:)

[AElfwine]

Simple: Tolkien wanted to write a story, it would defeat his purpose, and he probably would have never been a popular writer if he would have done so. It makes it interesting, its like if ET could fly away to save Elliot in the end of the movie, why didn't he fly away in the beginning? Because it is interesting.:eek: Genuis

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by AElfwine
Simple: Tolkien wanted to write a story, it would defeat his purpose, and he probably would have never been a popular writer if he would have done so. It makes it interesting, its like if ET could fly away to save Elliot in the end of the movie, why didn't he fly away in the beginning? Because it is interesting.:eek: Genuis

Yes, Tolkien wanted to write a story, and it was genius. But there were many ways in which Tolkien could write his novels and there wee many possible outcomes. That is why I post these threads, to see whether if factor X is changed and what X will have the effect on Y, the outcome.

[Elbereth]

I have no doubt that the Valar themselves would have agreed in helping in the recovery of the ring, had they known about it. From all accounts, the Valar and the Maiar who were sent, did not even realize the ring was still in existance until much later in the third age. By that time, Sauron's powers had already begun to grow.

Elrond's statement that the Valar would not accept the ring is based on the opinion that he had developed in his experience with the Valar. In his lifetime, the Valar had become aloof and distant to the peoples of Middle Earth. By sending the Maiar to deal with Middle Earth's problems, the Valar's actions could have been construed as being reluctant to take a direct role in its problems.

One should also realize that many of the peoples of the day, believed the Valar to be fairy tales...mere folk tale hero of old. To have such powerful figures come back into the world, would shock and frighten many of its ignorant inhabitants...which would hamper rather than help the situation. By sending the Maiar in the form of great men...their assistance can be more widely accepted.

[SpencerC18]

Also every time the Valar interfered in a major way, something bad would always blow back in their faces. By sending the Istari they wern't interfering too much, because the Valar limited the powers of the Istari.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Could you please tell me when SpencerC18. I would like to find out were. I cAan only remember when they interfered and good things happened.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by SpencerC18
Also every time the Valar interfered in a major way, something bad would always blow back in their faces. By sending the Istari they wern't interfering too much, because the Valar limited the powers of the Istari.

Yes SpencerC18, but the Valar were still contradicting themselves in the sense that they still sent the Istari when they said that they would not destroy the Ring. Yes, show us how it blew back in their face. All I can recall is when they tried to opress the Noldor, the Noldor rebelled, so could you show us where else the Valar intervened?

Originally posted by Elbereth
From all accounts, the Valar and the Maiar who were sent...

Elbereth, none of the Valar were sent to ME, only Maia. It was prophecied by Mandos that none of the Valar would retyrn to ME until the escape of Melkor in which Turin Turambar would slay him.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ulairi


Yes SpencerC18, but the Valar were still contradicting themselves in the sense that they still sent the Istari when they said that they would not destroy the Ring. Yes, show us how it blew back in their face. All I can recall is when they tried to opress the Noldor, the Noldor rebelled, so could you show us where else the Valar intervened?



Elbereth, none of the Valar were sent to ME, only Maia. It was prophecied by Mandos that none of the Valar would retyrn to ME until the escape of Melkor in which Turin Turambar would slay him.



Yes and they helped when they interfered and sent an army over to m.e earth in the war of the wrath. Ulmo helped them and interfered many and many times eg. tuor,voronwe,poweer he put into the water and turgon (in finding gondolin) to name a few. Last time i looked he was a vala. I cant really name a bad thing they did (interfering).

[Úlairi]

You'ver stepped outside the argument Beleg. The Valar were allowed to do those things. But later in the History of Arda, they said that they did not wish to help the peoples of ME as they had done enough, and the destruction of Sauron was their problem. Yet, despite the fact that they said this, they still sent over the Istari. I am wondering why they interfered when they said that they did not want to interfere anymore. It is a contradiction, you must see that everyone.

[Anarchist]

Firstly I disagree with AElfwine, that Tolkien just said this to go on with his story. This is a very serious matter, that the Valar wouldn't take the ring. There must be a reason, since Tolkien wouldn't just make up this excuse to go on with the story.
I have stated my opinion before, but I feel I should add another one. What if Elrond whas afraid that the ring would corrupt the Valar?! Yes I know some of you will attack me with poisoned spears :) but think about it. Even Gandalf, such a powerful wizard was tempted. I know Sauron was of lesser power, but being evil makes him even more powerful. He escaped from the rauth of Eru when he destroyed Numenor, just losing his body. I don't mean that Eru couldn't destroy him, but that he had his ways of slipping and doing his evil works. What if a lesser Valar was tempted and wanted to take the leadership from Manwe? Chaos would come between the Valar. They weren't perfect. I believe Tolkien took some characteristics from the ancient Greek gods to create the Valar. They had some human disadvantages. They were very powerful but still they couldn't stop Ungoliant from poisoning the Trees of Valinor. And still she was neither a Valar nor a Maiar. Just an opinion.

[pohuist]

On another note: I believe Valinor was hidden. How could they pass the Ring to Valar technically?

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Anarchist
Firstly I disagree with AElfwine, that Tolkien just said this to go on with his story. This is a very serious matter, that the Valar wouldn't take the ring. There must be a reason, since Tolkien wouldn't just make up this excuse to go on with the story.
I have stated my opinion before, but I feel I should add another one. What if Elrond whas afraid that the ring would corrupt the Valar?! Yes I know some of you will attack me with poisoned spears :) but think about it. Even Gandalf, such a powerful wizard was tempted. I know Sauron was of lesser power, but being evil makes him even more powerful. He escaped from the rauth of Eru when he destroyed Numenor, just losing his body. I don't mean that Eru couldn't destroy him, but that he had his ways of slipping and doing his evil works. What if a lesser Valar was tempted and wanted to take the leadership from Manwe? Chaos would come between the Valar. They weren't perfect. I believe Tolkien took some characteristics from the ancient Greek gods to create the Valar. They had some human disadvantages. They were very powerful but still they couldn't stop Ungoliant from poisoning the Trees of Valinor. And still she was neither a Valar nor a Maiar. Just an opinion.

I'm not just going to attack you with a poisined spear, I'm coming out with all guns blazing. Sauron was one of the most powerful Maia in existence. He was up there with Eonwe, Ilmare and Osse. Gandalf was in no way more powerful than Sauron, in no way whatsoever. Anarchist, I cannot believe that you believe that! Here is a couple of passages from UT:

"And Curunir Lan, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron, but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he."

So, Sauron was more powerful than Saruman, and Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf. Gandalf says it himself:

"Saruman is the chief of my order."

Therefore Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf, therefore Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf. Now Arathin, you may be thinking:

'Well, what about Gandalf the White? He's more powerful than Saruman, so he could be more powerful than Sauron, couldn't he?'

Well, the answer in 'no, he couldn't'. Here are a couple of passages that clearly show that Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf the White, as Gandalf the White says it himself:

"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'"

Gandalf clearly says there that Sauron is more 'dangerous' than Gandalf. Which is definitely suggestive of the fact that Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf the White.

'Wow! He's more dangerous!' you may think Arathin, 'but that doesn't mean he was more powerful, does it?'

Well, Gandalf says later on the same page:

"I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."

And there you have it, Gandalf says that Sauron is more powerful than himself. If you want even more proof, than here it is. Olorin (Gandalf) says to Manwe that he is afraid of the power of Sauron in UT:

"Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and just having entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked that Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron."

Olorin, who was Gandalf in his true form (and therefore being more powerful than Gandalf the White could have ever been) said that he was too weak to face the might and power of Sauron, the Black King. IMO, the only Maia that could actually face up to Sauron would be Eonwe, Ilmare and maybe Osse. As for pohuist, you must agree with what I have said here, I have backed it up with evidence. As for your question, Gandalf, who was a Maia, could simply take the Ring back to Valinor if he wished. Anarchist, I will provide even more proof if you want it.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Melian mayb as well she was very strong and Melkor whould have found it hard to destroy doriath with her still there. I agree with evrything u say Ulairi apart from Saruman being more powerful then Gandalf. Here is why

Gandalf never tried to dominate others as Saruman did so he never used his full strength. Even from the start Galadriel and Cirdan wanted Gandalf at the head of the order. He sucseeded in his task Saruman did not. He took over Sarumans order and in the end u just have to see what he was doing playing around with hobbits because that was the only thing lefty he could do. Olorin is the wisest maia even more the sauron. He was stronger in the end. Gandalf was humble and saruman not. He was honest to. By admiting he was scared of sauron and not as powerful he would know the things he could do and do not. Like feanor if he was honest with himself i'm sure he never would of ran off to take on the balrogs. He would have realised he was no match and not have done that. Gandalf i think was more powerful. I doubt Saruman could have taken on that balrog and won. I think i can remember Gandalf saying mayb tyo Pippin that he was the greatest of his order know. He was a lot smarter then him and sauron. They were both lured by lust and therefore did stupid things. Just look what happened in the end? Who won and what happened top the other because of who?

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Ulairi

As for pohuist, you must agree with what I have said here, I have backed it up with evidence. As for your question, Gandalf, who was a Maia, could simply take the Ring back to Valinor if he wished.

Not so fast Ulairi. First, Tolkien says the Ring could only be unmade in the Mount Doom. I haven't seen any evidence the Valar could unmade it, and if not, sending it there is definitely not a final solution. (That argument is weak, Manwe probably could).

Second, I think Gandalf could go back to Valinor only if he would be received. The reasons for him not to be received may be he did not fulfill (in view of the Valar) the task he was sent for. (His task was not to capture the Ring but to defeat Sauron, and without the Ring unmade that sounds problematic).

Third, the journey to Valinor could have proved rather dangerous. In the lands between Rivendell and the Havens there were not much protection from the servants of Saurons, should he be quick enough to sent some. Saruman also should not be forgotten. They were indeed searching. Right before death of Boromir, the company was waylaid by 3 groups of Orcs working together Orcs of Moria, Uruks of Saruman and Orcs of Sauron. Also, the ships sometimes get wrecked in which case the Ring would have end up on the seabed -- not good enough, the Ring had a strange way of reappearing.

Another reason, unlike Melkor or Sauron himself, the Ring was made in ME. It was sort of ME problem and the Valar could think it should be dealt with in ME. That resolves the contradiction -- they sent Istari to battle their problem (Sauron) but left peoples of ME to deal with ME problem (the Ring).

Last but not least, if Gandalf was taking the Ring to Valinor, it would have been in his possession for sometime. Ask your favourite real estate agent -- possession is 90% ownership. Gandalf had serious reasons NOT to have the Ring in his possession.

I think my argument still stands.

[Úlairi]

pohuist, you have made some interesting points here.

Originally posted by pohuist
First, Tolkien says the Ring could only be unmade in the Mount Doom. I haven't seen any evidence the Valar could unmade it, and if not, sending it there is definitely not a final solution.

Come on pohuist, you and I both know that that argument is extremely weak. Aule could have destroyed the One Ring in no time whatsoever.

Originally posted by pohuist
Second, I think Gandalf could go back to Valinor only if he would be received. The reasons for him not to be received may be he did not fulfill (in view of the Valar) the task he was sent for. (His task was not to capture the Ring but to defeat Sauron, and without the Ring unmade that sounds problematic).

This is a touchy subject. IMO, the Valar could stop Gandalf. But you made a statement which helps my argument:

Originally posted by pohuist
His task was not to capture the Ring but to defeat Sauron...

The Istari's task was no to 'beat Sauron', but to rally the people of ME to defeat him. The Valar said that they no longer wished to interfere in the affairs of ME, yet they sent the Istari, which is a definite contradiction.

Originally posted by pohuist
Third, the journey to Valinor could have proved rather dangerous. In the lands between Rivendell and the Havens there were not much protection from the servants of Saurons, should he be quick enough to sent some. Saruman also should not be forgotten. They were indeed searching. Right before death of Boromir, the company was waylaid by 3 groups of Orcs working together Orcs of Moria, Uruks of Saruman and Orcs of Sauron. Also, the ships sometimes get wrecked in which case the Ring would have end up on the seabed -- not good enough, the Ring had a strange way of reappearing.

Yes, I agree, but that fact is irrelevant to both your and my arguments. That one is easy to solve. Gandalf was a wizard, I am sure that it would have not have been too much of a problem for him. Besides, if you look at a map of ME, the passage between the Grey Havens and the Shire is quite safe, as Isengard and Moria are well out of the way. As for the spies of Saruman. We know that they are usually men, so Gandalf wouldn't of had too much trouble as I said before.

Originally posted by pohuist
Another reason, unlike Melkor or Sauron himself, the Ring was made in ME. It was sort of ME problem and the Valar could think it should be dealt with in ME. That resolves the contradiction -- they sent Istari to battle their problem (Sauron) but left peoples of ME to deal with ME problem (the Ring).

I disagree (of course I do otherwise my argument dies). Gandalf both chose and suggested the way to destroy Sauron by saying that the Ring should be destroyed. He even becomes one of the Fellowship to go and destroy the One, now, that's interfering with ME 'property'. If a Maia was to interfere with the One Ring, as Gandalf did, then it would be no different than the Valar doing it themselves. So, the Valar made the Ring their problem by sending rhe Istari to not only deal with Sauron (as you said pohuist), but by sending them to deal with the Ring which is, in your opinion, ME property.

My argument definitely still stands.

[Grond]

Ulari, you are wrong. The Valar wanted the "destiny" of Middle-earth to proceed. That destiny required the Ring to be destroyed by those that it dealt with. The Ruling Ring was not made with any single influence of the Valar. They had nothing to do with it.

It was, however, made by one of their own which gave that Maia (Sauron) an unfair advantage over the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth. The Valar knew that Sauron was still here and sent the Istari to aid the peoples of Middle-earth. It took both the Istari (because they forgot much of which they knew in Valinor) and the White Council longer to discover this fact. In fact, in 1100 TA they think a Nazgul has taken up abode in Dol Goldur. It isn't until 2850 TA that the White Council discovers that Sauron is indeed the Necromancer.

Why did I post all that. Because it illustrates why the Valar didn't interfere directly, yet knew all along what was going on in Middle-earth. They knew Sauron wasn't vanquished and sent the Istari to help prepare both Men and Elves to fight him again. In order for Man to grow to their full potential and for the Elves to realize that their time was at an end, they had to go through the turmoil and uncertainty of disposing of the Ring themselves. It was a Middle-earth problem and had to be dealt with in a Middle-earth way. That is why the Istari were not sent as Flame Spirits of Manwe but as Men for all intents and purposes. They could be killed and were not any more supernatural than an Elf.

If you want more of an answer than this Ulari, you will have to find someone more learned than I. I have given you all I have in this thread. If you are still unconvinced, maybe you need to write your own fantasy novels. ;)

[Maedhros]

However, Sauron was a Maia and was picking on people who were inferior in power. Leaving M-E to defend themselves against Sauron is almost like letting a wolf have free reign in a chicken coup, the match is not a fair one.
Remember, that is why the Valar send the Istari to ME. Remember that the ring was made in ME, not in Valinor.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
Ulairi, you are wrong. The Valar wanted the "destiny" of Middle-earth to proceed. That destiny required the Ring to be destroyed by those that it dealt with. The Ruling Ring was not made with any single influence of the Valar. They had nothing to do with it.

It was, however, made by one of their own which gave that Maia (Sauron) an unfair advantage over the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth. The Valar knew that Sauron was still here and sent the Istari to aid the peoples of Middle-earth. It took both the Istari (because they forgot much of which they knew in Valinor) and the White Council longer to discover this fact. In fact, in 1100 TA they think a Nazgul has taken up abode in Dol Goldur. It isn't until 2850 TA that the White Council discovers that Sauron is indeed the Necromancer.

Why did I post all that. Because it illustrates why the Valar didn't interfere directly, yet knew all along what was going on in Middle-earth. They knew Sauron wasn't vanquished and sent the Istari to help prepare both Men and Elves to fight him again. In order for Man to grow to their full potential and for the Elves to realize that their time was at an end, they had to go through the turmoil and uncertainty of disposing of the Ring themselves. It was a Middle-earth problem and had to be dealt with in a Middle-earth way. That is why the Istari were not sent as Flame Spirits of Manwe but as Men for all intents and purposes. They could be killed and were not any more supernatural than an Elf.

If you want more of an answer than this Ulairi, you will have to find someone more learned than I. I have given you all I have in this thread. If you are still unconvinced, maybe you need to write your own fantasy novels. ;)

Perhaps, perhaps. Yes, I agree with you Grond. ME needed to go on. What you have said satisfies me completely, and I do not think that I will have to go to someone more learned than you, just yet.;) Actually, I do write a bit of fantasy, so you weren't far from the truth. We are very learned, you and I, but one can defeat the other, and this time, you got me. I submit. In no way can I disagree with a perfect post, there are no holes that I can find. I do remember you agreeing with me on the 'Character Depth' post, and I felt good that the mighty Grond had submitted to me, but know it is my turn. Grond, I congratulate you on the perfect post! Now, there is not much that bothers me about LotR, so, thankyou.:)

[Grond]

Like me while you can!! Wait til you see my new thread in the Silmarillion Forum called Feanor's Fate. It is a dandy. Everyone.... get ready to lock and load.

[Úlairi]

Well then, I guess it is my turn to get you Grond!

[Anarchist]

Ulairi what are you talking about?!?!?!?!??!! I never mentioned that Gandalf was more powerful than Sauron. No way man!! You completely, totally misunderstood my words. Perhaps I was not clear enough. When I said that Sauron was less powerful I meant he was less powerful than the VALAR . It just happened that I mentioned Gandalf just before the sentence about Sauron. No way man! Gandalf was powerful but not that much! So keep your guns and put your sword back in its seath and first think before attacking. As we say in my country don't let the tongue run faster that the mind.
Grond, I guess you beated us all! But I guess it's unfair that the pople of ME had to learn the hard way! And why did the elves have to leave? Why had their time come?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Anarchist
...But I guess it's unfair that the pople of ME had to learn the hard way! And why did the elves have to leave? Why had their time come? The Elves as a rule, really weren't meant to dwell in Middle-earth. They were to live and co-mingle with the Ainur. Aside from a few straglers, the host of the Elven People made its way to Eressea and Aman and was meant to set up house there... which they did and they loved it... until Melkor stirred up embers of kingdoms to be won and battles to be fought by 1) corrupting Feanor and 2) stealking his Silmarils and 3) killing Feanor's father. This lead to the Flight of the Noldor and the rest is (as they say) Tokienesque History 101.

In the end, we are left to believe that the Eldar and even all other Elvish Peoples of Middle-earth, succumbed to the calling of the sea and their yearning to go home. Home for them was Valinor. And... that is why I said that they had to leave. They left because they wanted to. :)

[Maedhros]

until Melkor stirred up embers of kingdoms to be won and battles to be fought by 1) corrupting Feanor and 2) stealking his Silmarils and 3) killing Feanor's father.
Grond, are you saying, what i think you're saying?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros

Grond, are you saying, what i think you're saying? Of course, I'm saying what you think I'm saying. Without Melkor's interference, Feanor (in the story) would not have deserted Aman in the way he did. He may have gone for different reasons... but in the Silmarillion it is very clear that Melkor was the catalyst that brought Feanor's "dark side" to the forefront. I've never said anything different. I stand by my assertion that had Feanor not been susceptible to this subversion, the Flight and the Kinslaying would still not have occurred. :)

[Maedhros]

I stand by my assertion that had Feanor not been susceptible to this subversion, the Flight and the Kinslaying would still not have occurred.
So Melkor is partially responsible for Feanor's actions then.

[Grond]

In my own poll, Feanor's Fate... I voted for all of the above. Melkor's release by the Valar was an honest mistake but a mistake none the less. That contributed to Feanor's corruption. Melkor played on the basic flaws in Feanor's character to get him to do exactly what he (Melkor) wanted him (Feanor) to do... and that contributed to Feanor's corruption. But to coin a phrase from a former American president... "The Buck Stops Here". Feanor must accept the responsibility for his own actions because he and he alone is the only person who controls his own actions.

If we desire to point fingers we can point at Finwe for remarrying. It was that event and the subsequent birth of Feanor's half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin that upset him the most. He just couldn't handle competition for glory.

[Maedhros]

It was that event and the subsequent birth of Feanor's half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin that upset him the most. He just couldn't handle competition for glory.
Now that you mention this: What did Fingolfin or Finarfin ever create in Valinor. Can you say NOTHING. What competition?

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Ulairi


We are very learned, you and I, but one can defeat the other, and this time, you got me. I submit. In no way can I disagree with a perfect post, there are no holes that I can find. )

Ulairi, I mad some of the arguments Grond did, maybe less accurately and persuasively, but nonethelss. So, I think you should agree with me as well. Ah, BTW, you never answered my strongest argument -- if Gandalf was to deliver the Ring he had to have it in his possession, and that's a definite problem.

As for contradiction with sending Istari, Grond have answered that, I have nothing to add. I don't see much difference (besides purely technical between "Defeat Sauron" and "rally people to defeat Sauron" -- the end result is the same and he defeated Sauron using the powers he was allowed to use -- not warrior strenght but wisdom, perception and ability to influence others.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by pohuist


Ulairi, I mad some of the arguments Grond did, maybe less accurately and persuasively, but nonethelss. So, I think you should agree with me as well. Ah, BTW, you never answered my strongest argument -- if Gandalf was to deliver the Ring he had to have it in his possession, and that's a definite problem.

As for contradiction with sending Istari, Grond have answered that, I have nothing to add. I don't see much difference (besides purely technical between "Defeat Sauron" and "rally people to defeat Sauron" -- the end result is the same and he defeated Sauron using the powers he was allowed to use -- not warrior strenght but wisdom, perception and ability to influence others.

I am sorry pohuist, I did not mean to leave you out of the equation. Yes, I suupose you did make some of the arguments for Grond. Well done to you also. As for Gandalf delievring the One, yes that is a good question and as always, I have a theory. We all know that Gandalf would be tempted by the One, so, perhaps Gandalf could actually carry it in a way in which he could not touch it. Such as in the movie where he has it in an envelope. But, he would always be tempted to put it on being a Maia. The only way I could argue the fact that Gandalf would NOT be as so stupid to put it on is because of the fact that he is the wisest of all Maiar. Grond and Maehdros, argue about this somewhere in the correct threads.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros

Now that you mention this: What did Fingolfin or Finarfin ever create in Valinor. Can you say NOTHING. What competition? A father's love has nothing to do with what one makes with one's hands. Feanor was ever jealous of Indis and her sons. Not because of what they were capable of making but because of what they were capable of taking... Finwe's love and devotion. And the fear and resentment was unwarranted because nothing Indis nor Fingolfin nor Finarfin could have said or done would have made Finwe love Feanor less. That is one of the greatest tragedys of the whole tale. Feanor could and should have been a loving and devoted brother. I'm not sure if Finarfin was but you know for darn sure that Fingolfin was. He humbled himself before Feanor even WHEN HE HAD DONE NO WRONG. He wasn't trying to usurp Feanor's place by petitioning Finwe, yet Feanor drew a weapon and threatened his life. Had Fingolfin been any more strong willed, a kinslaying would have occurred before Aqualonde and let us not forget who was mightiest in arms. Feanor wouldn't have led the Noldor because his brother would have skewered him.