Morgoth's best ally, Feanor?

[Orome]

Just a thought to get some feedback on. Who further Morgoth's will more against the elves while Morgoth was still around, Sauron, Gothmog, or Feanor? The kinslaying, the oath which ultimately led so many to doom, and the leaving of so many to take the treacherous journey to the north when sailing without them to middle earth have it that Feanor himself was unintentionally a great enermy to his own race. Think about all the damage which Feanor brought upon his race through his hatred of Morgoth. Who caused more harm to the elves, Sauron, Gothmog, or Feanor is not really just a silly thought in some ways. As such, was Feanor in his hatred unintentionally an ally to the purpose of Morgoth and how much does his harms compare to those of the others who were knowing allies?

[baraka]

Feanor in his hatred unintentionally an ally to the purpose of Morgoth and how much does his harms compare to those of the others who were knowing allies?
Yes, he in a way followed the will of Morgoth, but by coming to ME with the Noldor, they proved to be a kind of barrier against Melkor. They resisted his attacks and halted in some ways his malice.

[Orome]

Yes, there would have been even more severe problems without the high elves battling Morgoth for sure. Things Feanor set into motion ultimately brought the downfall of Morgoth when upon hearing the pleas coming to them the valar did intervene. That was the end product of something he set in motion, but certainly not his action itself which brought that. That his own people did pay a terrible price they would not have paid for some of Feanor's either rashness or zealous hatred of Morgoth which sometimes had error in judgement in action does seem to be the case. He was definitely a double edged sword. I do wonder though if things would have been better done if not through the fire of his hatred. Overall, he did bring much pain sometimes through his actions and that itself would be within the chaos bred of Morgoth. Feanor, a walking contradiction maybe?

[baraka]

Feanor, a walking contradiction maybe?
He´s kind of a contradiction. He hated Melkor, but he himself was taken with Melkor´s lies and became corrupted. In a way he was an instrument of Melkor´s will but at the same time, there he stood to fight against him to the death.:)
It was the Mightiest of the Vala against the Mightiest of the Eldar.

[Grond]

Originally posted by baraka
...It was the Mightiest of the Vala against the Mightiest of the Eldar. You have got to be kidding baraka! Maybe at one time Melkor was the mightiest Vala and maybe at one time Feanor was the mightiest Eldar. By the time Feanor got to Middle-earth, he was the corrupted leader of a corrupted people and Melkor had used much of his might in his works of Middle-earth. Neither was too high in greatness or in might by the time of the kinslaying.

And... you seem to keep forgetting who it was that beat a path to Melkor's door, scattering all of Melkor's servants before him. He it was who struck Melkor seven wounding blows with his sword. You are rendered again to your what if's and might have beens where Feanor is concerned because he never had the "will" to face Melkor in combat. But that's okay, because of the sons of Finwe, one was strong enough to stand up for the family name... and his name was Fingolfin!.:)

[baraka]

where Feanor is concerned because he never had the "will" to face Melkor in combat. But that's okay, because of the sons of Finwe, one was strong enough to stand up for the family name
Of the sons of Finwe, first i will say that Finarfin is a wuss.
If it were for Fingolfin, the Noldor would have never gone to ME and he wouldn´t have had the chance of battling Melkor. You have asked me what did Feanor did while living with the Valar, now i ask you what did Fingolfin ever did when he was there? Did he create something? He became king of the Noldor in Tirion becuase his father Finwe loved his brother Feanor the most.
When Finwe was killed Feanor was the only one of his sons who wanted revenge. I think that Fingolfin and Finarfin would have been okay with the Valar doing nothing against the murderer of their father.

because he never had the "will" to face Melkor in combat.
For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath.
I think that the words of JRRT himself say that Fëanor wanted to face Morgoth. I don´t know how could disagree with that.
:)

he was the corrupted leader of a corrupted people
Hmmm. Fingolfin followed Feanor to ME so that means that he was corrupted too!

[Grond]

oringally posted by baraka
Of the sons of Finwe, first i will say that Finarfin is a wuss.
If it were for Fingolfin, the Noldor would have never gone to ME and he wouldn´t have had the chance of battling Melkor. You have asked me what did Feanor did while living with the Valar, now i ask you what did Fingolfin ever did when he was there? Did he create something? He became king of the Noldor in Tirion becuase his father Finwe loved his brother Feanor the most.
When Finwe was killed Feanor was the only one of his sons who wanted revenge. I think that Fingolfin and Finarfin would have been okay with the Valar doing nothing against the murderer of their father. You call Finarfin a wuss and I call him the only Noldo who remained loyal to the Vala. As for Fingolfin, you are right... had not Feanor revolted against the will of the Valar, it is unlikely that Fingolfin or Finarfin would have set out to leave the Blessed Realm. Instead, they would have let the Vala handle their own as they had done in the past and AS WAS THEIR DUTY.originally posted by baraka
I think that the words of JRRT himself say that Fëanor wanted to face Morgoth. I don´t know how could disagree with that.All this shows is that Feanor had the desire to fight Melkor in combat as did his sons and every other member of the race of the Noldor. You seem to forget that the very orcs that Feanor pressed on against, fled in the face of the onslaught of Fingolfin.originally posted by baraka
Hmmm. Fingolfin followed Feanor to ME so that means that he was corrupted too!The Silmarillion sheds a little different light on Fingolfin's coming to Middle-earth that you appear to have forgotten about. The author writes,
"Then Fingolfin seeing that Feanor had left him to perish in Araman or return in shame to Valinor was filled with bitterness; but he desired now as never before to come by some way to Middle-earth, and meet Feanor again. And he and his host wandered long in misery, but their valour and endurance grew with hardship; for they were a mighty people, the elder children undying of Eru Iluvatar, but new-come from the Blessed Realm, and not yet weary with the weariness of Earth. The fire of their hearts was young, and led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Finrod and Galadriel, they dared to pass into the bitterest North; and finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helcaraxe and the cruel hills of ice. Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or woe. There Elenwe the wife of Turgon was lost, and many others perished also; and it was with a lessened host that Fingolfin set foot at last upon the Outer Lands. Small love for Feanor or his sons had those that marched at last behind him, and blew their trumpets in Middle-earth at the first rising of the moon."

I leave you to read the above quote and come to your own conclusions as to why Fingolfin and his companions came to Middle-earth but one can hardly conclude that it was following the "leadership" of Feanor.

[Eonwe]

interesting stuff, this

As an aside, I think that the Noldor maybe would have come back to ME at some later time, say even if Melkor was kept chained up forever. Because the Sil mentions that Galadriel, Turgon and Fingon wished to go to ME to make their own kingdoms, find their own way.

Feanor was Melkor's best tool, in that he was able through Feanor's speech in Aman to get a majority of the Noldor to leave Aman, and fight an endless worthless pitiless unwinnable battle against a Vala, with no hope of winning ever. Not only did he go after Morgoth for revenge for his father's murder, but he went for the Silmarils too.

Only the pity of the Valar after the whole First Age eventually stopped Morgoth, after so many princes of the Noldor were slain. Think about it: Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Turgon, etc etc all dead, all the remaining elves near the sea, and finally the tale told to the Valar convinces them they can do something because the Doom has run its course.

[Camille]

Hmmm. Fingolfin followed Feanor to ME so that means that he was corrupted too!
Fingolfin was not corrupted by melkor! the word of Feanor made the Noldor wish to go to ME Fingolfin didnt want to go but after all he went to ME to lead his people and for love to them.
he did not share the thought of Feanor to seek revenge in a hopeless war.

[Orome]

Good you bring that up Camille. It's been awhile sincing reading over that, but wasn't Fingolfin in part concerned about how his people would do with a crazed Feanor leading them? There were many miseries which did come from Feanor's zealous desire to reclaim the Simirals. I think that was really more a motivation than his father's death.

[Camille]

Yes, he was more concerned abput his people, I do not doubt Feanor's love to Finwe but he was a spitrit of fire and his own love and fire betray him, He was furios of course, the robery, the salying of his father, but I think that Fingolfin had a cold head at that time, and his though was to collaborated with the Valar and may be they would have got the Silmarils back and punished Melkor after all the Noldor could not beat Melkor, he was defeated only when the Valar went finally to battle.

[baraka]

Instead, they would have let the Vala handle their own as they had done in the past and AS WAS THEIR DUTY.
Grond, it´s my opinion that if someone killed my father, you bet that i would do something about it. I would have not left it for someone else to do what i have to do.
Feanor is concerned because he never had the "will" to face Melkor in combat.
All this shows is that Feanor had the desire to fight Melkor in combat as did his sons and every other member of the race of the Noldor.
Definition of will:
1. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.
2. Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
By the very defintion of the word, Feanor had the will to fight Morgoth, the fact that he didn´t in no way changes that fact.
Fingolfin and his companions came to Middle-earth but one can hardly conclude that it was following the "leadership" of Feanor.
What Feanor did was not good, i have always said that, but before the "betrayal" did not the host of the Noldor wanted to leave to ME. Feanor convinced them but he didn´t forced them to do anything against their will.
and fight an endless worthless pitiless unwinnable battle against a Vala, with no hope of winning ever.
Why was it impossible. There were many things that have been told to be "imposible" but have been made. It is good that the human "spirit" always tries to do things that seems impossible in their times (planes, man on the moon, etc.). It was impossible because the Valar said so? I think it´s sad that people have this "precondition" of impossible attached to themselves. It´s a good thing that the human race through the ages has been able to overcome "impossible" deeds.
There were many miseries which did come from Feanor's zealous desire to reclaim the Simirals. I think that was really more a motivation than his father's death.
I have only this quote in the sil that i personally think that Feanor held his father dearer than any works of his hands:
Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
Man, i love this phrase.:)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by baraka

Yes, he in a way followed the will of Morgoth, but by coming to ME with the Noldor, they proved to be a kind of barrier against Melkor. They resisted his attacks and halted in some ways his malice.


Yes. If they didn't come melkor could have captured the elves and all the men and dwarves and used them in his army. Trying to get a big enough army to take over valinor.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Camille
Fingolfin was not corrupted by melkor! the word of Feanor made the Noldor wish to go to ME Fingolfin didnt want to go but after all he went to ME to lead his people and for love to them.
he did not share the thought of Feanor to seek revenge in a hopeless war. From The Silmarillion, Chapter Of the Darkening of Valinor, it states,

"...And Feanor came not in raiment of festival, and he wore no ornament, neither silver nor gold nor any gem; and he denied the sight of the Silmarils to the Valar and the Eldar, and left them locked in Formenos in their chamber of iron. Nevertheless he met Fingolfin before the throne of Manwe, and was reconciled, in word; and Fingolfin set at naught the unsheathing of the sword. For Fingolfin held forth his hand, saying:'As I promised, I do now. I release thee, and remember no grievance.'
Then Feanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said:'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us...'"

later in the chapter Of the Flight of the Noldor, it states,

...but the host came behind under Fingolfin; and he marched against his wisdom, because Fingon his son so urged him, and because he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash counsels of Feanor. Nor did he forget his words before the throne of Manwe..."

Here we two interesting things.
1) Had Feanor not been vindictive and hateful to the Vala and worn the Silmarils to the festival, they would not have been stolen.
2) Fingolfin forsook Arda because of all the things in the above quotes. He embodied all the good qualities of his race and despite his half-brother's rash actions, he stood by his word, his family and his people. baraka, how can you cleave to Feanor when all he did was make things with his hands... while his brother Fingolfin made things with his heart.
:confused:

[Orome]

Hey Grond, I like some of your points you make and how ultimately what Fingolfin made was made with his heart which was more important than that which Feanor made with his hands. The misery ultimately brought by Feanor really is tempered by Fingolfin in some ways. Though the return of the Nordor houses was set in motion by Feanor's actions which ultimately kept Morgoth at bay what would have happened if Fingolfin had no concern for those who followed Feanor and Fingolfin would have remained behind? How long before all the elves who followed Feanor would have been squashed like bugs? So I would actually say that Feanor set into motion that which caused much pain and Fingolfin with his noble mind set forth that which was ultimately resurrection from it, so much as the blowing of the trumpets upon the return to show forth a new day. If not for Fingolfin's return I doubt any would have been left alive to beseech the Valar for help. So Feanor was ultimatey a minion of Morgoth, even if unintentionally, by the pain he caused and it was Fingolfin's actions which were the only hope to get beyond those actions. And for that string about mightiest elf Feanor killed no balrog. A couple of others actually did! Feanor was very successful at killing a bunch of innocent shipbuilders who were weilding really scary looking nets. oooo tough eh? Fingolfin challenged and wounded the greatest evil himself, probably something for which he was better prepared from interacting with his half-brother. Feanor through his actions got many who followed him killed and without Fingolfin the deaths of so many would possibly have been in vain as the ability to hold back Morgoth would not have been there and none would be left to beg for mercy and help. What did Feanor bring other than the simarils but misery?

[baraka]

Fingolfin forsook Arda because of all the things in the above quotes. He embodied all the good qualities of his race and despite his half-brother's rash actions, he stood by his word, his family and his people. baraka, how can you cleave to Feanor when all he did was make things with his hands... while his brother Fingolfin made things with his heart.
I greatly admire Fingolfin. I mostly admire the fact that when he gave his word, he kept it. I honestly think that Fingolfin would have followed Fëanor to hell itself, because Fingolfin said:
but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide as.'
What i admire about Feanor is that he "dared" to do the impossible. In his mind there were no limits. Above all, he loved his father the most.
And for that string about mightiest elf Fëanor killed no balrog. A couple of others actually did! Fëanor was very successful at killing a bunch of innocent shipbuilders who were weilding really scary looking nets. oooo tough eh?
Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.
For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him.
Hmmm. These are the words of JRRT, not mine.:)

[Grond]

Yes baraka, and it is indeed a shame that Feanor did not use those skills to unify instead of divide, because, despite what you feel about him, Feanor split his people into different camps. This was a people that in Valinor had one King. How many did they have in Middle-earth?

[baraka]

Feanor split his people into different camps. This was a people that in Valinor had one King.
I know that he split his people into different camps which made the whole war effort even more difficult.
Actually, in Valinor, when Feanor was banished from Tirion, Finwe went to exile with him and Fingolfin became the "temporal" king of the Noldor that remained. So technically they had 2 kings. Although it was recognized that Finwe was the King.:)

[Maedhros]

What, my father being Morgoth´s best ally, that insane. My father was the one who wanted revenge for the death of our king Finwe. My father never gave up, believe me i was there. In my whole life, i battled just and many unjust battles but always remembering my oath, because I Maedhros noldorian prince, i never wavered from my word.
Wait, now i remember in the hall of Mandos, all the evil that i had done upon my kindred (Teleri) and in ME. I will forever be ashamed of the injustices made by our oath, but my father was ensnared through Morgoth´s lies and sadly in a way became his instrument. But i also remember that no one hated more Morgoth than my father.

[Grond]

Maedhros, your father became Melkor's vessel and caused all of Melkor's curses to come to fruitian. Feanor did it unwillingly and his driving desire was to fight and kill Melkor and recover the Silmarils if he could.

In the end, his corruption and you and your brother's corruption are what made the mythology of Middle-earth a reality. :)

[baraka]

Feanor did it unwillingly and his driving desire was to fight and kill Melkor and recover the Silmarils if he could.
Pinch me, i must be dreaming. Grond, are you saying that Feanor had the "will" to fight Melkor?
In the end, his corruption and you and your brother's corruption are what made the mythology of Middle-earth a reality.
You hit it right on the nail, oh Hammer of the Underground.:)

[Orome]

Feanor probably had the will and desire to fight Morgoth directly I would agree. The IF he could kill Morgoth is pretty essentially put. What Grond otherwise put about Feanor furthering Morgoth's curses seems to get very much to the essential thesis of the whole string. Baraka, what you say about Grond hitting the nail right on the head seems a good way to put it.

[Grond]

Originally posted by baraka

Pinch me, i must be dreaming. Grond, are you saying that Feanor had the "will" to fight Melkor?

You hit it right on the nail, oh Hammer of the Underground.:) baraka, please quote where I have ever said that Feanor did not have the will to fight Melkor. Of course he had the will, he just didn't exude the necessary wrath of his half-brother Fingolfin. No foes ever ran from Feanor, as a matter of fact, he seemed to attract Balrogs in droves. His brother Fingolfin, on the other hand, exudes som much wrath that not one of Melkor's servants would stand in his way.

Many people, both Man and Elf, had the will and desire to fight Melkor...only one did.:)

[baraka]

Originally posted by Grond
You have got to be kidding baraka! Maybe at one time Melkor was the mightiest Vala and maybe at one time Feanor was the mightiest Eldar. By the time Feanor got to Middle-earth, he was the corrupted leader of a corrupted people and Melkor had used much of his might in his works of Middle-earth. Neither was too high in greatness or in might by the time of the kinslaying.

And... you seem to keep forgetting who it was that beat a path to Melkor's door, scattering all of Melkor's servants before him. He it was who struck Melkor seven wounding blows with his sword. You are rendered again to your what if's and might have beens where Feanor is concerned because he never had the "will" to face Melkor in combat. But that's okay, because of the sons of Finwe, one was strong enough to stand up for the family name... and his name was Fingolfin!.:)
Ok, Grond, i have your quote from this same thread in which you say:
You are rendered again to your what if's and might have beens where Feanor is concerned because he never had the "will" to face Melkor in combat.

[Grond]

Oops!!!! You caught me. I apologize for getting carried away in the posts you have cited. I concur that Feanor had the "will" to fight Melkor but he didn't ever "create his own opportunity" to fight Melkor as did his half-brother Fingolfin.

[baraka]

I concur that Feanor had the "will" to fight Melkor but he didn't ever "create his own opportunity" to fight Melkor as did his half-brother Fingolfin.
I can live with this assertion.:)

[baraka]

baraka bows before the wisdom of the Hammer of the Underground Grond.:)

[baraka]

You call Finarfin a wuss and I call him the only Noldo who remained loyal to the Vala.
Finarfin was a noldorian prince, he owed his people, the Noldor, his loyalty first, his loyalty to the Valar should come in second place. His sons understood this, that's why they came to ME, though they loved Feanor little.
Fingolfin understood this, did he not?