Were the Ainur the First to Spring from the Thought of Eru?

[Grond]

In the LotR, The Two Towers, Chapter The White Rider, Gandalf makes the following statement when addressing Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli concerning his confrontation with the Balrog,

"...Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, and I will bring no report to darken the light of day..."

This indicates to me that there are things older than the Ainur that must have sprung from the thought of Eru before the Vala and Maia. Since all was void, they must have resided in the void and maybe some came to Middle-earth after it was created.

What do you think??? Gandalf is not infallible but his statement is pretty clear. He thinks there are living things which are older than Sauron (and himself). Would this not be a plausible explanation for both Ungoliant and Tom Bombadil, who seem to defy standard explanation?

[baraka]

Answering your question:
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.
I think this first passage of the AINULINDALË seems to me that the Ainur were the first offspring in Eru´s mind.
Having said that, i think that we should not rule out that there could be other beings in the void before Eru made the ainur.

[Eonwe]

thought about this a lot.

I have little to offer except a weak analysis:

1) If they are older than Sauron, in the truest sense, then they have to have been in Ea before the Ainur sprang from Illuvatar's thought. Pretty much impossible.

2) There is often in LoTR and the Sil. references to how old things are. Eldest I am = Bombadil. The oldest living thing under the Sun = Treebeard. I think if you go back before the Sun and the Moon many of these references are clouded. What I mean is, there is a time when the Valar first come to Ea and create the lamps and the Spring of Arda starts. Is this when time in Ea really begins, or is it when the two trees flower and mingle their light for the first time? For instance could it be possible that Sauron came down to Melkor in the early time of the Spring of Arda, that is he was completely corrupted then (but probably already made music with Melkor in front of Illuvatar, and was still a "good" Maia for Aule before this)? It isn't clear exactly when each Vala/Maia came into the world, and like Tulkas some came later.

So what I am saying with #2 is, perhaps these nameless things were in Ea as soon as it was created (or nearly thereafter) or perhaps they were created at the very start of the Spring of Arda, and thereafter Sauron came to Arda from the outside and was corrupted by Melkor.

Never really had a good answer for Gandalf's statement...

[Camille]

I agree with Eonwe, there are a lot of contradictions in the LOTR and in the Sil (treebear-BombaldiL) about who is the eldest and things like that I also think that maybe those creatures that sauron did not know are the beast that orome used to hunt at the time when arda was young and melkor corrupted many things at the time before time.

[Hama]

One could interpret Gandalf's words in a number of ways. I think that these things have been around since before a) Sauron became evil. b)Sauron came to middle earth c) Sauron's spirit came back to inhabit middle earth. I do not think this meant the creation of Sauron along with the other Ainur. The origins of Tom Bombadil are as discussed on numerous other threads, an enigma that JRRT never explained. Concerning Ents, they were definitely some of the oldest inhabitants of Middle Earth, but doesn't it say somewhere that they were awoken by the Elves? Someone help me out please. In which case would you consider the Elves to be older? Obviously these big creatures had big egos to go with them.

[Camille]

hama you are right, in the chapter were aule create the Dwarves Yavana went to manwe!! and there he remebered that the ents are going to wake up when the elves will wake

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by baraka
Answering your question:

I think this first passage of the AINULINDALË seems to me that the Ainur were the first offspring in Eru´s mind.
Having said that, i think that we should not rule out that there could be other beings in the void before Eru made the ainur.



Yes. But i think it was the ainur. But the thought of Eru is the Ainur.

[Grond]

After rereading the opening statement in the Ainulindale again, I guess I'll have to do another poll on whether the Ainur were the only beings to spring from the thought of Eru. It appears that the Silmarillion states that the Ainur were first, could others have come later? Again, if others came later that were not Ainur, would that not explain the enigmas of Bombadil and Ungoliant and the other creatures that came to Middle-earth at the invite of Melkor perhaps.

[Elfarmari]

maybe we could resolve this debate by saying that the Valar were created, then the 'nameless things',etc, and then the rest of the Ainur, including Sauron. . .;)

[Grond]

Unfortunately, Nienor, The Ainulindale makes it pretty clear that the Ainur were all created first and at the same time by Eru and the Ainur included both the Vala and the Maia... hence the problem with my theory. :(

[Orome]

That it was mentioned possibly it is how the time line is measured which makes a difference. Sauron may have still singing and through the themes of Melkor been coming up with a few of these things so they had bodies before Sauron did. They would not be as old as measured in time of living in spirit but older in have life in body. Kind of splitting hairs I know. Those weird themes Melkor came up with would explain some of those bizarre creatures I saw when hunting which never were in Angband, especially those tall funny looking ones who said ecki-ecki-ecki-pitang-someingorother that kept repeating this one strange word which sent my puppy into absolute delirium. I will not repeat the word. It is of ill omen to do so. These things had physical form such as they were before those of us who were first in the mind of Illuvitar. I do think the Aunir were first by all I know, but Eru knows best.

[Gothmog]

If the 'namless things' of Gandalf's quote are older than Sauron and The Ainur were the first to spring from the thought of Eru, then we are left with the possibility that these things are not of the Thought of Eru.

Question. Where did Eru come from?

Perhaps the nameless things existed before the Ainur and were the same age as Eru. This could also apply to Ungoliant who descended into Arda from the Void. Maybe they were the creepy-crawlies of the void such as our spiders, worms and insects.

[LeggoMyLegolas]

i have Sim with me and it says :clears throat:
"but for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in understanding of the brethren grew slowly"

what i got out of it was that like humans there only know what is taught to them by eru wishes even the point where yavanna goes to manwe and to ask about her works being free from dominion and manwe unfolded the thought in his heart and it grew and was beheld by no other than iluvatar and manwe "heeded many things that he heard them but had not heeded before" which goes back to the comprehension thing

sauron was and is a maiar but it says that they are helpers of the valar so if time is a part of this eru has to make a second body(the maiar) after the first body(the Valar/ainur) is created there for in the thought of eru there is a very good possibility of there being something before sauron besides the valar. and their purpose you ask well eru knows but it goes back to knowing only what you need to know going back to the sauron knows them not. i dont know if thats legitimate or just mindless jibber jabber but give comments please?

[baraka]

Hmmm. Master Yoda, can you clarify what you are trying to say?:)

[LeggoMyLegolas]

eru made ainur then unspeakables then maiar and sauron does not know them becuase eru did not let him know that

[Hama]

Can't say I wholly agree with you, LmL. The Ainur are the order of being created before Ea and include the Maiar and Valar. The Maiar were created side-by-side with the Valar, but the latter were of greater power and stature. I agree with Grond that there were other things put into place by Eru, possibly after the creation of the Ainur that they have no idea about (Bombadil, Shelob, et al) I also think that the Ainulinde has more weightage than Gandalf's words, and because of this contradiction we must try and find a new, more parsimonious meaning for these words, as I have suggested in a previous post (look above).

[Bucky]

I think the explanation is that Ainur are Ainur, not Maiar or Valar & the unnamed creatures came with the creation of the world, before those spirits that were Valar & Maiar had entered earth & became 'bound' to it until the end.

Or, Sauron came later than some did, just like Tulkas.


>>>The
origins of Tom Bombadil are as discussed on numerous other threads, an
enigma that JRRT never explained.

Tom Bomdadil is not an enigma. Tolkien states in letter 144 (I think - it's late) that Tom was 'the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford countryside.'
So, he represents 'natural' conditions or the physical manifestation of ME.
When Tolkien states in a later letter that Tom is an enigma, he isn't expecting his son would publish all those letters, including the one where Tom is described as that 'spirit of the (vanishing) countryside.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Bucky
I think the explanation is that Ainur are Ainur, not Maiar or Valar & the unnamed creatures came with the creation of the world, before those spirits that were Valar & Maiar had entered earth & became 'bound' to it until the end.

Or, Sauron came later than some did, just like Tulkas.


>>>The origins of Tom Bombadil are as discussed on numerous other threads, an enigma that JRRT never explained.

Tom Bomdadil is not an enigma. Tolkien states in letter 144 (I think - it's late) that Tom was 'the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford countryside.'
So, he represents 'natural' conditions or the physical manifestation of ME.
When Tolkien states in a later letter that Tom is an enigma, he isn't expecting his son would publish all those letters, including the one where Tom is described as that 'spirit of the (vanishing) countryside. Bucky, I've cited the letter that JRRT wrote, in which he explained that TB was indeed an enigma, several times. You have referred to Letter 144 numerous times on the issue and I have read it and reread it and don't find the quote of which you speak. It is a really, really long letter. Could you please direct me to exactly where in the letter it is written? I do not question it is there, I just can't find it and would like to see in what context it was written. Thanks.

[UngattTrunn475]

Let me quote from the first chapted in the Quenta Silmarillion:

It is told among the wise that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand. But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaventhat there was battle in the Little Kingdom, and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.

Do you suppose that there were other creatures from what it calls "The Far Heavens" that wandered into Arda, and stayed there?

[Gothmog]

I thought that I would bump this thread up to see if there were any fresh insights to be given by the membership now. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Good for you, to do so, Gothmog! :D

IMHO, in the light of Tolkien's mythology as we read it in the published Silmarillion, Eru was the one who created all the creatures in that Void of theirs - creatures called Ainur. And some of them were of more strength and power and abilities than the others. So, we see that even before the making of the world, later called Arda/ Ea, Eru created himself a "company" ;) These creatures - more or less mighty, were offsprings of his mind and as it was many times discussed in numerous threads, it seems he had created some of them good and others - evil, some had a higher "rank", others - lower one. And they all lived there in that space=Void.
When the Ainur sang their music into being and the world was created not all of them entered it. Only some of them. Who stayed with Iluvatar - we are not told.
But even if the Valar and Maiar who willingly entered Arda were not allowed to leave it until the Great End, we have no particular information about the opposite process to be forbidden - namely creatures from the Void may have been entering into the new world even after the first "squad" ;).
Now, do we know when Sauron entered Arda? Nothing is said as far as I remember.
Meanwhile, while the Valar were very much occupied with settling comfortably in the new world, did they care who else of their brethren from the Void followed them? No. They had their troubles.
So, the point I'm trying to make is that creatures like Ungoliant etc. might have entered Arda before Sauron and he just was summoned later. Therefore he could not know about them.
Besides, the new world was vast even for the measures of the Valar. There were places they did not explore or if they visited those places they quickly withdrew from them for not finding them suitable or/and pleasing their exquisite taste. What a perfect place then for the others - the unknown, to settle in! ;)

This is what I think of that.... :rolleyes:

[baragund]

To me the first sentence of the Ainulindale is pretty specific. Eru made the Ainur "...before aught else was made."

One way to reconcile this with the passage Gothmog quoted is to assume not all of the Ainur were created simultaneously, and that there were enough of them so that they could not all keep track of each other. Some of them chose to be very active in the affairs of the world and others were apparently content to dig their burrows and gnaw on the roots of the earth as Gandalf described. And just because an Ainur was a "bad guy", it doesn't mean it was necessariy allied with Melkor and Sauron. Ungoliant is one example of this there is no reason there could not be others.

I get the impression that the number of Ainur who chose to descend into Ea was a significantly greater number than the famous cast of character we read about through the stories.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Grond
"...Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, and I will bring no report to darken the light of day..."

This indicates to me that there are things older than the Ainur that must have sprung from the thought of Eru before the Vala and Maia. Since all was void, they must have resided in the void and maybe some came to Middle-earth after it was created.


Eru created Arda with the words 'Eä', and the planet came into existence then. The Ainur were at that time still with Eru in his halls. But some things and concepts sung in the music of the Ainur might in that moment already have come into being - Tom Bombadil comes to mind, and perhaps such beings as the Watcher in the Water and Ungoliant. That would explain why Tom Bombadil is 'the eldest', but only in 'Arda-time' of course, not in 'absolute' time.

If we consider the whole of the Universe, the Ainur are indeed older than any other being (Eru excluded).

So in Arda-time, all the Ainur would be considered older than Tulkas for example, who entered Arda at a later time than everyone else. In 'actual' or 'absolute' time, Tulkas is the same age as every other Ainu of course.

The Ainur that entered Arda became part of it, and could not escape it. We could say that they became part of its history and time. And we could say that when they entered it, they started to age along with it, so to speak. In those terms, the Ainur were younger than some other beings who started 'aging' from the very moment Arda came into being.

I think what Gandalf meant in that statement of his, is that in 'Middle-Earth time', there were older things than the Ainur. When Sauron entered Arda, the nameless things were already there, living and aging, before Sauron started to 'live and age' in Arda, and therefore he would be considered younger then these nameless things.

[YayGollum]

Would it be insanity to believe that Sauron could have just been a second generation Ainur type thing? oh well.

[Ithrynluin]

Second generation? All of the Ainur were 'made' at the same time.

And I don't think the nameless things referred to by Gandalf are Ainur. Sauron can't be younger than these in 'actual' time, though he is younger in 'Middle-Earth time'. See my theory.

[YayGollum]

Yes, yes, yes. I've read everything in here already. But then, I haven't read anything that said that every little Maiar type thing that ever was were made at the same time. Things couldn't have happened anything like this? --->

First Ainur types show up all at once or one by one when Eru thinks them up.

He then makes these crazy things underground.

Sauron is born.

[Grond]

Gothmog, you sly devil.... bringing this old thread out of the depths of time again...

My thoughts are well posted throughout this thread and tend to agree wtih Lhun on this issue. Please post something additional to peek my interest a bit. I haven't debated in ages and hardly have the time for it... but for you... mayge a little time could be 'created'! LOL!!!

Good to see you back on the boards old friend. I am only sorry that I can't be. Let me know what you want to argue about and maybe I can find a way to participate. :)

[Gothmog]

Grond, Nice to hear from you again. I hope that soon you will be able to spend more time on the site and on MSN. :)

Well you ask for my thoughts and here they are. ;)

I have for some time given thought to this problem. In the mythology we have a number of enigmas. The most celebrated of these is of course Tom Bombadil. But also there is the "Unnamed Creatures" that Gandalf talks about and the Watcher in the water by the West-gate of Moria.

Basically in my view there are three possible answers to this question.

One. Eru was not completely alone in the Void. There may have been other creatures of lesser order.

Two. There was multiple creations and Eru created things other than the Ainur either before or after and that the Ainur did not know of these before entering Arda.

Three. There was a secondary creation which included the "Unnamed Creatures" and possibly Tom and Ungoliant also.

Let us take a look at these possibilities

One. We have no writing or any evidence at all to support this thought. The use of this idea is at best speculative and verges on the realm of "Fan-Fiction".

Two. There is some support for this in the writings. Some of the earlier work includes the idea of Ainur being created or even Born at different times.

Three. Of the choices I have put forward, this has the most support in the writings. There was indeed "Secondary Creation". This was the Music of the Ainur where Eru propounded a Theme and each of the Ainur adorned this according to their measure and skill. Melkor introduced ideas of his own that were not in accord with the First Theme and caused a battle of sound.Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilúvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged. This continued through the Second Theme.Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his lift hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Even in the Third Theme there was discord between the two musics of the Ainur.Then again Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern. So the Ainur helped in the creation of Arda and indeed were responsible for "Secondary Creation" within it.Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' However, to achieve this would require the creation of many different things. So from the discord caused by Melkor we could, and I think we do, get creatures such as Ungoliant from Melkor's thoughts and Tom possibly an answer from Manwë. In between these extremes of dark and light there would be many others including the idea of the Ents and also many others that the Ainur did not know and only learned of when they entered Arda.

So when the Ainur finished the Music Eru showed it to them and then knowing the Ainur he created Arda from their Music. This would then contain not only his Themes but also All of the secondary creation.

Quotes from the Ainulindalë

[Arvedui]

Gothmog.

Just one thought on your Theory #3. In Myths Transformed one can find these sentences:
In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor - Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things.
So if Sauron knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor/Morgoth, I would say it was very possible that he also knew what Melkor brought into it.

[Gothmog]

So if Sauron knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor/Morgoth, I would say it was very possible that he also knew what Melkor brought into it. It is true that Sauron would know "More of the Music" than Melkor acccording to the quote and therefore more of what was contained in it. However, Sauron was a very long way from being Eru. How much would he know? Tom and Ungoliant? Very Probably. All the many things that came between? I very much doubt it. Even Manwe is not shown to have that much knowledge and he is said to be closest to Eru.

[Arvedui]

I agree.
And none is said about any details. Did Sauron know all of the music? Probably not. As you say, only Eru did that.

[baragund]

Hi Arvedui...

I wonder if you could take a step back and elaborate a bit on Sauron being more knowledgeable of the Music than Melkor. I haven't read Myths Transformed yet so I don't know the context of the quote you provided.

It seems kind of strange that a mere Maia would know more of the Music than the mightiest of the Ainur.

[Grond]

Originally posted by baragund
Hi Arvedui...

I wonder if you could take a step back and elaborate a bit on Sauron being more knowledgeable of the Music than Melkor. I haven't read Myths Transformed yet so I don't know the context of the quote you provided.

It seems kind of strange that a mere Maia would know more of the Music than the mightiest of the Ainur. You have to understand where Melkor was coming from. He wasn't interested in listening to no stinkin' music. He was only interested in making his own and then subverting all the other music to himself. I think that any other Vala or Maia would probably have heard and understood more of the music than Melkor because Melkor just plain wasn't listening.

His intentions were not to follow the conducter (Eru), but to go off on his own tangent by which Arda Marred was actually created; hence, Melkor probably new least about the real themes "improvised/preordained" by Eru because he was too busy doing other things.

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by baragund
Hi Arvedui...

I wonder if you could take a step back and elaborate a bit on Sauron being more knowledgeable of the Music than Melkor. Grond beat me to it. Besides, he explained it a lot better and with fewer words that I would have done.:)

[Sangahyando]

I have come to the conclusion that either:

1) Void manifested itself in these creatures in the time of Illuvatar's coming.

2) The Unnamed Creatures are Ainur, that had been influenced by Melkor in the far reaches of the Endless Void

3) or, the Unnamed Creatures are an embodiment of Illuvatar's mind himself and that they are not his thought but his mind itself. (it's a bit hard to comprehend).

So has spoken Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper

(I'm only eleven years old).

[Sangahyando]

1) Void manifested itself in these creatures in the time of Illuvatar's coming.
The Unnamed Creatures are the Void's effect such as time and the gradual decaying of life. Not a physical being.

Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper

[Grond]

I have come to the conclusion that either:

1) Void manifested itself in these creatures in the time of Illuvatar's coming.

2) The Unnamed Creatures are Ainur, that had been influenced by Melkor in the far reaches of the Endless Void

3) or, the Unnamed Creatures are an embodiment of Illuvatar's mind himself and that they are not his thought but his mind itself. (it's a bit hard to comprehend).

So has spoken Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper

(I'm only eleven years old).An interesting concept. What supporting facts can you present from Tolkien's writings to support your viewpoint?? Ideas without basis are interesting but have no real weight.

Cheers,

grond

[Ingwë]

The question of the poll is 'Were the Ainur the First Offspring of the Thought of Eru?', not 'Were the Ainur the First created by Eru'.
I think that the Children of Eru were the first to spring from his thoughts. I think Eru created the Ainur to help the children and to create world for them. It is simple.

[Thorondor_]

I think that the Children of Eru were the first to spring from his thoughts. I think Eru created the Ainur to help the children and to create world for them.
Hm, what do you mean by Children of Eru? In the book, they reffer to the Men and Elves.

[Ingwë]

Hm, what do you mean by Children of Eru? In the book, they reffer to the Men and Elves.Yes, I mean the Elves and Men. Eru created the Ainur to protect the Children.
In some thread I posted that Ea is just a test for the Ainur. Eru wanted to know what will happen if... He created the Ainur to make a home for the Children. And they made. But the Valar had a few problems: Melkor, Fëanor. And there is 'end of the world'. So I think that Eru wanted to create another world later. The next world will be better than the first.

[Haldatyaro]

The question in my mind is, what framework are we defining "oldest"? To me, that implies a measurement of time, and there is reference in SIL about Arda (the physical world) being made in the "Deeps of Time". Perhaps there is no "time" in creation beyond Arda?

Here's a clue I found, when Eru shows the Ainur his vision for Arda, before they were instructed to fashion the world: But they had become enamoured of the beauty of the vision and engrossed in the unfolding of the World which came there to being, and their minds were filled with it; for the history was incomplete and the circles of time not full-wrought when the vision was taken away.

It seems therefore that Time was not established until the world was made.

Also, as someone mentioned, creatures entered (or were born in) Arda at different times. Those older than Sauron could have been created before he arrived in Arda with other Ainur. Same could apply to Bombadil and Treebeard, too though I realize there are inconsistencies with the whole Bombadil legend.