Spiders [Merged]

[My_Precious]

Those spiders from the Mirkood - are those a litter of Shelob?:confused: :confused: :confused:
Thanx:)

[YayGollum]

Yes, I don't know either, but I'm sure of it. Yay all with readily apparent Gollum fetishes!

[Ragnarok]

They're not directly from Shelob. But they're related to her. Shelob was a lot bigger and badder too. Both the Mirkwood spiders and Shelob are descended from Ungoliant, Melkor's confidant and partner.

[Grond]

I don't have my books for reference with me right now, but I seem to remember the author describing her "lesser spawn" (or something to that effect) being in Mirkwood.

[SarumansTreason]

Is Shelob and the Other spiders actually explained in the LOTR near when Tolkien explains how Shelob is Saurons pet/

[Grond]

Thank you Walter. It was lesser broods and not lesser spawn. Oh well, close but no cigar.:)

[elenya]

Here's a thought; if Ungoliant was the only spideer thing in the beginning how does she have descendants? Mitosis(sp?)?

[Eonwe]

she split in the middle like an ameoba :)

[elenya]

:D lol! No seriously. I'm very gullable. does she really split in half?

[Eonwe]

nah, just kiddin :)

She must have made an egg sack, like I saw on that "SOME PIG" movie, where wilbur talks to charlotte at the fair. But who mated with her??

[My_Precious]

I thought she was reproducing without the male, kinda like some insects queens do. Hm....
:confused:

[elenya]

But insect queens have drones or something to mate with! Right?? It still makes no sens. Or maybe she really is like an ameoba. Duh duh duuuuuuhhh!!! jk:D Or am I??

[My_Precious]

Not always. Some insects are able to reproduce with only female. believe that's how bees start their new nests.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Not so. A queen bee does mate with a fertile male -- once. She then stores the sperm and fertilizes all her eggs with it from then on.

Perhaps there was a mate for Ungoliant who is not mentioned in the texts. Or perhaps Melkor was the original genetic engineer, and cooked up some sperm for her.

Either way, we must assume that either there were other unnamed males of the Shelob species, or that Shelob was provided with a supply of sperm to fertilize her eggs, or that she was capable of asexual reproduction in some way.

[Thorondor]

I am fairly certain that it says somewhere about her having mates. Probably in the Unfinished Tales. I don't have it with me, I have to remember to look that up.

[elenya]

So check in the Unfinished Tales? I think I will! If anyone finds it feel free to post it!

[Gothmog]

and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs.
From the Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor.

So Ungoliant was not the only creature of Spider form in Middle-earth.

[My_Precious]

Thank you, Gothmog! I have to get myself copy of Silmarillion in English...

[Thorondor]

Good job Gothmog. I looked over the Sil and Unfinished Tales, but couldn't find that quote. Good thing you could. :D

[Gothmog]

I am glad I could help.:)

[Eonwe]

re: mating at least with Shelob:

"Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen..."

TTT Shelob's Lair

So at least in her case, if I read this correctly, she mated with her own offspring (chicken and egg problem)?

[elenya]

Originally posted by Eonwe

(chicken and egg problem)?

I finaly solved -that- one. It's the egg! See I figure two different animals cross bred and they got a new egg which hatched into...a chicken!

[Thorondor]

Originally posted by elenya


I finaly solved -that- one. It's the egg! See I figure two different animals cross bred and they got a new egg which hatched into...a chicken!

Good theory eleyna, but usually if two different breeds bred, their offspring are hybrids that are sterile. Like a horse and a donkey make a mule, but the mule is then unable to breed.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Originally posted by Thorondor


Good theory eleyna, but usually if two different breeds bred, their offspring are hybrids that are sterile. Like a horse and a donkey make a mule, but the mule is then unable to breed.

...which raises the whole question of the Half-Elven. What's up with that? Are Elves and Men just different races of the same species? If so, why are the Elves immortal and Men aren't? (makes you more sympathetic to the Numenoreans, doesn't it?)

If they're different species, how do they interbreed and produce non-sterile offspring?

As Larry Niven said about Lois Lane: she'd have more luck trying to mate with an ear of corn than that alien Superman.

[My_Precious]

'Coz they are 'people'.
It's like, for example, if your dad is american, and your mom is mexican, you'll be half-american, half-mexican, but you'll be able to have kids...:D

[Harad]

All interspecies sex is problemmatic.

As Jack Lemmon in "The Great Race" responded when told:

"She ran off with a little friar."

"With a chicken?"

[Eonwe]

ha! And Carl Sagan said something about Spock having a human mother, equating to a human mating with a petunia.

[elenya]

Maybe not -all- cross breds are sterile. Maybe the chicken was an exception! OK it's not two completely different species. Maybe the species that made the chicken were related!

Maybe they're from animals that we know of...I mean we evolved from apes but they're still alive.

[Thorondor]

yes there are still the ancestors are still around. Two birds of Southern Asia called the Red Jungle Fowl and the Saipan Jungle Fowl are still around, but I am not sure exactly how they are related.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Thorondor
yes there are still the ancestors are still around. Two birds of Southern Asia called the Red Jungle Fowl and the Saipan Jungle Fowl are still around, but I am not sure exactly how they are related.


Yes but does this prove what was said earlier???

[elenya]

what did birds have to do with anything?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by elenya
what did birds have to do with anything?


Who knows?

[Úlairi]

What of the spiders that attacked Thorin and Company in Mirkwood, descendants of Ungoliant? Cousins of Shelob? Any opinions???

[Elanor2]

Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant, if I remember correctly, and the only one still alive. The monster spiders in Mirkwood are probably also descendents of Ungoliant, or perhaps of Shelob. I do not remember that exactly.

[Mormegil]

I think they are descendants of Shelob.

[Úlairi]

I would be inclined to believe that they were descendants of Shelob also. It is an interesting concept however.

[ssgrif]

I think you're right Ulairi, but if you want to see more opinions on this, then check out the previous thread about this very same topic:

Spiders (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=2053&highlight=mirkwood)

[Úlairi]

I have posted this thread before, but it accidentally got wiped and I only ever got two posts on it, so here it is again. The large spiders in Mirkwood, were they cousins of Shelob? Children of Ungoliant? Children of Shelob??? Any opinions?

[Rohansangel]

Well, Shelob couldn't talk, and the Mirkwood spiders could, so they most likely weren't related to her.

"And that's all I have to say about that"

~The Angel of Rohan

[Nicholas Blake]

Rohans Angel is wrong. Shelob is the child of Ungoliant, and the Spiders of Mirkwood are the children of Shelob.

[Úlairi]

Nicholas Blake, despite your status of Junior Member, I believe that is exactly the answer I was looking for. Rohansangel was incorrect in saying that Shelob couldn't talk. She talked to Gollum who delivered Sam and Frodo to her, of course she could talk Rohansangel, she was the last child of Ungoliant!!!

[Nicholas Blake]

Yay, the first semi-intelligent Junior Member on a Message Board is me! ;)

[Úlairi]

Zipedee-do-dah, zipedee-ay! You won't like me as much once you have read what I posted in your characters thread in the LoTR forum.

[Grond]

Just to support the cause. Here is the quote from the LotR's which supports that the spiders of Mirkwood were indeed the spawn of Shelob and that she was the spawn of Ungoliant.

From The Two Towers, Chapter Shelob's Lair, it states,
"...There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came Luthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dur; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Duath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastness of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world..."

Thus your question is answered directly from the book and this thread is complete. ;)

[Rohansangel]

OK, so I was wrong ... I hadn't checked the book as I should have, and you guys did, so now I feel silly.
Oh, and Nicholas ... don't feel special, because there are plenty of intelligent JMs besides you, and if you were as intelligent as you think you are, then you wouldn't be talking about it ...
Let's keep it nice.

~The Angel of Rohan

[Grond]

I apologize if it appeared we were after you Rohansangel. All I was trying to do was answer the question. All of us need to make sure we follow the "Golden Rule". Treat everyone as you would like to be treated.

I agree with you Rohansangel, we must "keep it nice" and I'm here to make sure that happens. :)

[Nicholas Blake]

I was just joking. Being an avid member of the Spawn Message Board for several years, I am used to the stereotype of Junior Members (AKA Newbies) being really ignorant and un-intelligent (Which was true a lot of the time).

I didn't mean to come down on anyone. :p

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
Just to support the cause. Here is the quote from the LotR's which supports that the spiders of Mirkwood were indeed the spawn of Shelob and that she was the spawn of Ungoliant.

From The Two Towers, Chapter Shelob's Lair, it states,


Thus your question is answered directly from the book and this thread is complete. ;)

Thankyou Grond, I found that passage the other day but I still decide to see if anyone would come up with the right answer. I figured it would be you. You seem to like some of my threads.

[Úlairi]

It is interesting though, how the spawn of Shelob moved to Mirkwood. Were they still there in LoTR?

[Beorn]

I'm not really sure, nor do I know where one might look, but I would say no:

When Gandalf went to go chase of 'The Necromancer' as he was referred to in the Hobbit, many of the evil creatures that had taken abode in Mirkwood (because Sauron was there) were chased out too.

[Úlairi]

Yes, I agree with you on that one Beorn. When Sauron was driven from Dol Guldur there was a 'watchful peace' as Tolkien describes it in Mirkwood, obviously concluding that the spawn of Shelob had moved somewhere else or were maybe even slain by the wood-elves.

[Beleg Strongbow]

i think all spiders would have been descended from ungoliant in 1 way or another

[Úlairi]

Have you read the whole thread Beleg? There is substantial evidence that the spiders of Mirkwood were the children of Shelob, not Ungoliant simply because Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant and the last in existence. So, the spiders of Mirkwood could not be children of Ungoliant.

[Ancalagon]

Well, Shelob couldn't talk, and the Mirkwood spiders could, so they most likely weren't related to her.

This interests me greatly. Shelob is not recorded as having spoken any words, though Mirkwood spiders are certainly clearly recorded as having conversations in The Hobbit. Though I always assumed Shelob had spoken with Gollum, even though it is not recorded.

I wonder then if Ungoliant actually spoke when communicating with Morgorth, or possibly because she was Maia, they would communicate by the transfer of thought. Actually, could it be that neither Shelob or Ungoliant actually spoke, they simply understood?

[Sam_Gamgee]

Originally posted by Nicholas Blake
I was just joking. Being an avid member of the Spawn Message Board for several years, I am used to the stereotype of Junior Members (AKA Newbies) being really ignorant and un-intelligent (Which was true a lot of the time).



Exactly usually junior memebers tend to be a little off im glad i finially got to normal memeber and now some people will take me more seriously lol but yeah it says in the book about shelob's children migrating to the northern parts of mordor and mirkwood and to a buncha different places so they are related to shelob

[Úlairi]

I have always presumed that Shelob could talk as she was a child of Ungoliant, who could speak. All of the children of Ungoliant could speak and the spiders of Mirkwood I believe were the children of Shelob who could also speak!

[Grond]

I am on vacation and don't have my books with me (I know... shame on me!) but I am sure that in the last few chapters of TT it gives a very detailed description of Shelob and identifies her as the last of the brood of Ungoliant and also refers to the Spiders of Mirkwood as her offspring.

[Ancalagon]

I am on vacation and don't have my books with me

I bet you tried to pack them in one of those little suitcases with the fold out handle and wheels, but your wife caught you trying to load them into the car and made you put them back:)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I bet you tried to pack them in one of those little suitcases with the fold out handle and wheels, but your wife caught you trying to load them into the car and made you put them back:) My wife read your post Ancalagon and to quote her directly, she said, "Busted!!!!" I didn't know you knew my wife Anc... but it seems you know her mind, and my actions... very well. :)

[Ancalagon]

I would have tried exactly the same, my wife would have 'busted' me in the process:)

[Úlairi]

LOL! You two are funny!

[Sam_Gamgee]

yeah im 16 i dont have a wife, so i can't say my wife would bust me, and my mom would be like good your bringing your books along with you we might need to look somthing up while were there.

[Úlairi]

Mine too Sam, but lets get back to the thread. Does anyone believe that the spiders of Mirkwood may have still been there in LotR?