The Problem Involving the Wizard Guilds

[Mithrandir]

Hello all loyal to this forum. It seems that a problem on this forum has arrived. And since it directly invloves my vreation I wish to address it.

I have felt much tension towards my wizards guild over the past few months. Many people seem to think that it goes against what Tolkien originally implied, and I can not say I fully disagree with some of these arguments.

Thus I have come to a conclusion to solve the problem. I will hold a vote. You may either choose to keep the wizards guild alive, or completely dismiss all of it's members excluding the White Council. If this choice is choosen then there will only be 6 wizards which is more accurate to Tolkien.

I ask for anyone who is in a wizard guild NOT to vote, but please state your opinion by posting.

Thank you all for your cooperation and patience.
~Mithers

[Aerin]

I don't really know what should happen. If the Guilds have become a problem, then Mithers should think about reducing their size.
That's my little input..:)

[Khamul]

Should the mancers then be downgraded as well?

[Ciryaher]

I think that perhaps the wizards should be more regulated in what they can do, but I don't think we need remove ALL of them. Abusers should certainly be removed, but others hsould remain.

[Beorn]

Whoops, I voted before I read your post. But anyone, I voted to keep them intact. Read my reply in the other thread.

[Talierin]

I agree with Cir, there needs to be stricter standards, and no more of this Harry Potter stuff, so I guess I agree with Mike in that sense too. I wonder if having a power point system would work, like the White Wizards would have the highest power point number, and so on. Then if everyone would put their number somewheres in their location/sig/title, they could be easily monitored for power abuse and so forth.

Also, I think that no one outside of the Wizards Guild or the Mancers should have magical power, because there's no control on what they can do.

Another opinion of mine, which will prolly get booed down, is that I think some of these really stupid RPs need to go, like ones that are all one-sentence posts without any real storytelling. Most of them have no point.

Just my ops......

[Ecthelion]

I think that you should dismiss all wizards except the wizard leading that guild. I also think you should post a thread or something asking what peoples weapons/armor are made of. I mean it makes since that dwarves may have one mithril thing because of the fact that they are great miners. But it wouldn't make sense to see like men that wander with all mithril armor and weapons. Beorn, what if people have chains, or medals that don't cause strength or anything, but because of the things history or something it gives the person a stronger will making them fight better. Is that ok?

[Beorn]

I cannot say what is allowed, and what is not.

I really don't know. I know there are a few things in M-e that have special powers, but nothing that I know of that gives extra power to their weilder. There are the Silmarils, but those are simply pretty. There are the Palantiri, which do give an advantage to the weilder, but not more power. There are other things, of course, like the Arkenstone, but those are only pretty things...nothing that actually gives you more power.

[Ecthelion]

I am not saying they give you more power. I am asking if things can motivate you to do better. Now, you named the Arkenstone in your list. Was that of personal objects or does it have powers?

[Eomer Dinmention]

I think the size of the guilds are too big.

Everywhere i see theres always a wizard.

[Khamul]

And, there is also big problems for many mancers, trying to find people for their guilds.....

[whiterider]

I think some of the wizard guilds have grown slightly too big and perhaps it might be better and more accurate to Tolkiens intentions if we just had the White Council ,thats just my opinon

[arisen pheonix]

i have stated this elsewhere but this is NOT tolkien it is a fan site the rpg's that the whizards participaate in are for the enjoyment of the fans. if you do not enjoy having so many wizards in you rpg start a wizard free one. this site was built for tolkien fans the rpg's are put up for fun not to continue writing the history of middle earth

[Mormegil]

I sense a touch of elitism creeping into this Forum. Do certain members who have been here since August, and claimed high positions, feel that 'Newbies' shouldn't be equal to them??

Why does anyone have a right to choose to be a wizard above anyone else?

The wizard guilds are an excellent way for people on this Forum to meet and integrate with other people. Becoming a part of Forum society.
As long as people know the rules about Wizard powers and obey them I don't see a problem with the current system.

If we only have 5 or 6 Wizards, who will they be? Who gets to decide? Will these elite wizards lord it over everyone else because they are 'better' and have been here longer?

[Valar]

I think we should keep the wizard guilds, but downsize them. I think there should be no more than 5 in each guild maybe even three.
But i don't know how we would go about downsizing, because i don't thank many would like to leave, maybe all we can go on is past form and activity.

[Aerin]

Mormegil:
It's not that founding members of the guilds feel superior or elitist to the newer members; the problem is when people join the guilds and come out with Hollywood-type special effects.

Mithrandir has laid out rules for the Wizard guilds to follow, but some of the new members have ignored those rules.
If you'll read Beorn's thread about the RPGs (I believe it's located in the Prancing Pony Forum), his complaint is understandable. Trying to role-play with others who keep bringing out bigger and better weapons really detracts from the spirit of role-playing.

Everyone wants to have the most magic on the forum, and that is a problem. If everyone claims to be a Maia, or wizard or whatnot, then it is no longer role-playing, but merely trying to one-up your opponents.

If Mithrandir does decide to cut back on the number of Wizards, then the White Council will remain. The White Council were the founders of the Wizard Guild; we convinced the others to join us.
I don't think that anyone will "lord it over everyone else because they are 'better' and have been here longer". Unless a Wizard was to become rude and snide in his/her posts to others, what would it matter if there were 6 wizards or 16?
The same problem arises with the other guilds forming in the Prancing Pony Forum. A person might join, for instance, the Guild of Linguistics, and then go on to hold themself as superior to the other members of the forum. Would that be any different from a Wizard doing the same thing?

The choice is up to Mithrandir, really. He put up this poll to see what the general opinion on the forum is on the Wizard Guild; which makes the final decision very fair.
If the majority of the votes leans toward keeping the Guild, then it will stay the way it is, perhaps with some revisions and new rules. If the popular opinion is that the Guild should go, then the White Council will be left.

As long as the members of the Guild of Wizards obey the rules and act in an orderly fashion, then there is no problem with the Guild, as you said, Mormegil.

Implimenting a stricter set of rules might help to regulate the new members of the Guild. Talierin's idea of the points is a good one; because there have been some times (in the RPGs) where wizards have used fantastic magical powers, and had no limit on their power.
To continue the RPGs with good sportsmanship, everyone must be subject to the rules and regulations.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Well, after reading some of the complaints posted by Beorn, I feel I have a possible solution for the problem. I think that the white wizards should be the only real wizards, but that they can have students of a sort, and that those students are more like sorcerers than wizards, and the power does not reside in born power, but in knowledge. This seems more the way to do it, if you ask me, but I am completely open to other ideas.

[Eomer Dinmention]

I agree with Aerin and Ellesar.

Maybe the students of those guilds could be like well students.
Studying how wizards do their thiing

[Ecthelion]

So what would the students be able to do? No magic or just little bits of the magic the are studying.

[Eomer Dinmention]

They wouldn't do magic i don't think.

But they would prpbably do a little of magic.

[Goldberry344]

Valar, if the guilds are downsized, its the ppl who have been here the longest who will get to stay. what about the Newbies who want to get started??

When you were a newbie...

were you nervious to post in rpgs or guild threads?? i was... if you dont let ppl join guilds ppl wont feel welcome.

also, as Arisin Phoenix said, this is NOT tokien, its RPGs. if you have 3 wizards in an rp, they dont use their power all the time.

I think Tal's answer was closest and fairest to what is "right". but i think ALL guilds should get the same amount of power points, say, weekly?? or something. but PLEASE dont downsize.

[Dain Ironfoot]

I believe that a chosen few should be evil and good wizards/Mancers. The white council should stay but I believe that being a wizard/mancer is a privlage NOT something you should be able to just sigh up for......

[whiterider]

I originally thought that just the White council should remain but after reading all your points I believe that perhaps a better system is all that is needed. Something like the powerpoints system that Talerin and goldberry proposed. Also I would just like to say on the point people were making that this is not tolkien I agree totally ,this is just for peoples own fun,however at the back of all there is the Tolkien theme ,basically all rpgs guilds etc follow Tolkien ideas so I think we should try have some similarities ,all i mean is that we keep it somewhat like Middle Earth and dont go too overboard

[Afterglow]

My opinion is, if you want to have fewer wizards it should be harder to become one. (Because now all you have to do is sign up as one.) Instead of "downsizing" and totally taking it away from someone and making it impossible to become one. I agree with the idea of being stricter- that way people who abuse the rules just won't be able to participate.

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Dain Ironfoot
I believe that being a wizard/mancer is a privlage NOT something you should be able to just sigh up for......

And how would you earn that privlage if all the Wizard places are taken up by the people who joined the Forum first and 'just signed up for'it?

[Aerin]

Privelege or not, if the guilds keep obtaining new members at the rate they have recently, soon there will be no more room for new Wizards. I believe it was the Silver Wizards who have had to post that there are no more positions available because they have already maxed out on the number of members. Even in my guild, I've had four people sign up in the past two weeks.

I read a post yesterday (I can't remember who wrote it, my apologies for not citing you :)) that dealt with the powers of Wizards compared to the other inhabitants of Middle Earth. Wizards do not have unlimited power, far from it; but at the same time, Men, Dwarves, and Elves have strengths of their own. The ability to create big explosions and fireworks in an RPG is not the mark of 'great power'.

If one truly wanted to nit-pick the details of Tolkien's Middle Earth, one might say that any interpretation outside of J.R.R. Tolkien's mind was not truly Middle Earth; that it was in some way corrupted. Everyone pictures things differently, and no two people imagine the exact same thing.
Having some differences from the text of Tolkien's books does not mean that the RPGs are so far from the original, or that they are true to the spirit of LotR. I'm sure that even the modern Dungeons and Dragons is diluted and changed from the inventor's original idea.

If the choice of keeping the Wizard Guilds or not is going to become a big problem, then maybe it should just go back to the founders of the Guild.
One might argue fairness in such a situation; fairness is not the point here. The people who created the Guild wanted to get other members to join because we thought it would be more fun to be at the head of other Wizards. The problems that seem to be arising from the Guild were not forseen; and therefore could not be prepared against.
If there continues to be such consternation over the Guild, maybe Mithers would consider keeping only the White Council, to avoid any more trouble.

[Mormegil]

Aerin,
Originally posted by Aerin
Privelege or not, if the guilds keep obtaining new members at the rate they have recently, soon there will be no more room for new Wizards.
Didn't both you and Talierin both post new threads, asking for new members to your guilds about 3 weeks ago. Why the sudden change of heart?
You can't ask for new members and then start complaining when they join.

Originally posted by Aerin
Even in my guild, I've had four people sign up in the past two weeks.

OH MY GOD!! I wonder why? When approximately 3 weeks ago you posted this in the Prancimng pony.
Originally posted by Aerin, in the Prancing Pony
So You Want To Be A Wizard...
Join the Blue Wizards!
We have control over the water and the weather.
(Added to the Green Wizards, we can also make mud...)

Join today! PM me for a position in the guild!


How can you complain about the influx of wizards to your guild when you asked for more members??

[Aerin]

Mormegil:

Didn't both you and Talierin both post new threads, asking for new members to your guilds about 3 weeks ago. Why the sudden change of heart?
You can't ask for new members and then start complaining when they join.

I have not once complained about the members of my guild. I have merely stated the possibility of problems if the guilds become too big. If all of the Guilds had the maximum number of Wizards allowed in them, then no more could join, whether or not it was a privelege.
I've had no 'sudden change of heart' toward the people in my Guild.
The decision of keeping all the Wizards or merely the White Council is a difficult choice; especially when there is such heated opposition to the White Council by itself.
You seem to forget, Mormegil, that Mithrandir put this up as a poll, so that the forum could have its say on here. It's not merely the question of if the Wizards wish to be 'elite'; it's a question of how will the guilds be managed.

And, since you have looked at the Wizard's threads, you must have seen the White Council thread. Mentioned in that thread is the fact that if all of the colours had the full number of members, there would be 55 wizards on the forum. I do not begrudge anyone the chance to claim the title of wizard, but doesn't 55 seem a little excessive to you?
When the numbers of Wizards is that high, they become commonplace.
What if Mithrandir was to put a freeze on anymore people joining the guilds? Would that satisfy everyone involved?

[Tarien]

I have been a Tolkien fanatic for a long time, but myself am young and just recently found this forum. Yet I am an active member who tries to honestly propel stories, making them richer and more interesting. So should I be banned from joining a guild just because I am new? Is that fair? In my opinion, no. I try my best to help this forum.

[Khamul]

Originally posted by Dain Ironfoot
I believe that a chosen few should be evil and good wizards/Mancers. The white council should stay but I believe that being a wizard/mancer is a privlage NOT something you should be able to just sigh up for......

But, also should there be a certain standard, and would the leader be able to kick people out of a guild if they quit posting? And, that could also make people create a whole bunch of guilds...The purple wizards, the guild of pizza study....

[Mormegil]

Yes that is true. If the White Council chooses to disband the Wizard Guilds and set themselves up as the elite, then we could see rival Wizard organisations spring up every where. These new organisations would not be regulated and would run out of control.

[Zale]

As a member of a guild myself (the rare & therefore special :D Grey Wizards), I would vote that they remain. However, there is the problem of people who abuse their 'power', especially in RPs. I think instead of being a Wizard gaining you powers, such as the ability to summon huge fireballs of chain lightning in a battle (which is clearly ridiculous and totally unbalances things), the "power points" system proposed by Talierin and Goldberry sounds like a fairly good idea (even though I'm not familiar with the system myself). There could be another alternative: instead of gaining physical or magical 'power' at all, a Wizard's power could be more psychological; the awe in which he (or she) is held, their very presence, inspiring other people. Consider the number of times Gandalf actually used magic in LotR compared to the number of times his influence gained him what he wanted. The obvious advantage of such a system would be that the extent of a Wizard's power (or influence) would be mainly decided by the other forumites instead of by the Wizard himself (or herself). This would most probably prevent the aforementioned overbalancing in RPs and make sure that everyone is happy with the Wizard's power. (well, almost everyone)

[Goldberry344]

ok, look at the poll results so far, people LIKE the guilds how they are. this is a role playing GAME not reality. just leave it.

if someone is abusing their magic, why not have a mod or someone tell them to down their use of power??

[Eomer Dinmention]

Really you are in no position to say whether the guilds should go or not.

Mith only asked you and me and everyone else to see what they think about this topic.

It is up to him to decide.

lol
(Mith no pressure) lol

[whiterider]

i agree with king Eomer .Mithrandir master minded the wizard guild and he was also the one who brought up this topic .No one else has the right to choose what happens next but mith. Good luck buddy :D

[Valar]

Yeah i think Mith shoukd decide too but i just want to give a thought on thism, i really do think the wizards should be downsized to just the white council, and leave it at that. It just means they would be the wizards of the forum. I wouldnt mean that they are all powerful, i think that if a powerful warrior came up agaisnt them they would stand just as much of a chance.
I never really use my wizard powers at all, i find they can sometimes ruin RP's its more fun in a fight.

[Goldberry344]

I never really use my wizard powers at all, i find they can sometimes ruin RP's its more fun in a fight.
i aggree with this, i hardly use my powers, acctually, ive used them 2 times.

Either way you chose, people wont like the decision. ;)

[Snaga]

Snaga is not a wizard or a necromancer. He is just an orc. But everyone is scared of him!

Seriously, I've had offers from people to give him lots of magical powers. But he just wouldn't be Snaga if he could just blow someone away. He's devious and ruthless, and has many ways to get things done, and he's more fun that way.

I like characters with a strong personality, more than those with lots of powers but you can't remember anything they've ever said.

Using Elessar as an example...(maybe some risk to this! LOL) Elessar the character is really strong - loads of personality, with both good and bad traits. Some people love him, some really don't like him much at all. I think that's great. Sometimes though Elessar pulls magic 'out of a hat' and that can be annoying. Hope you don't mind me singling you out a little... I know you can take it!!

If someone can come up with a way of rewarding good quality posts with the potential to acquire new powers, that would be cool.

[Tarien]

I agree with Snaga. The more involved you are, the more power you should be able to wield. (NOTICE I SAID ABLE ). If you don't want it, fine. But wizardom should not be elitist! That just isn't fair.

Again, consider me. Look at when I signed up, and how many posts I have. There are people that have been here far longer than me that are barely at 'member' status! Yet they were here first, so they could be wizards! I cry out with that unfairity.

[Mithrandir]

Ok, WOW! There are a lot of things I would like to address now. First of all, thank you all very much for your opinions on the matter, and for your votes, I have taken them ALL into consideration.

The very first thing I would like to say is that the Wizards Guild has ALWAYS been open to everyone. This includes newbies to Moderators. The mere fact that one could say that the wizards have not excepted newbies or has singled them out, or WILL single them out is plain out ludicrous. To be quite honest we have always had MORE Newbies than we have veterans in these guilds.

Now I believe I have reached a decision on what it is I am going to do. Before I state what that is however there is a few things that I would like to make clear.

The thought of a point system is indeed very intelligent. However I do not think it will take place as of now.

Time and time again I have asked members of the wizards guild to be careful with their powers. I do not like them acting like a powerhouse, merely because they are wizards. I am not going to lie, I have made this mistake as well, and I am sorry if it has angered anyone. But the issue here is that while I have asked for the wizards to stay under control, they have not.

I have posted the powers of each guild I think 3 times now and that is just ridiculous. And what is even more ridiculous is the fact that I have STILL seen wizards act like they have power they do not even have. This can not be tolerated.

Finally there is the issue of the White Council. Numerous people have complained that the White Council is made up of only veterans and that if we are to disband the Wizards Guild than it would be unfair, because what are the newbies to do. The fact is, the Wizards guild was formed a long time ago. What probably most of you do not know is that most of the White Council was here before the thought of a Guild was ever even mentioned on the forum. When the idea came up for guilds many members came forward willing to start guilds that they would head up. I took the position to start a guild of Wizards, with me as the leader. I worked pain stankingly for many weeks on this project, with the help of some friends, and finally came up with the system that we see in place today (unfortunately I did not foresee the issues that would come up with the powers.) All this to say when the guild was first formed it was my duty to choose who I saw fit to head up the White Council. I took the people who I trusted most on the forum, and who I believed would be the most beneficial and the fairest. These individuals are what we call the White Council. They have stayed with me the entire time of the guilds existence, they have been my friends, they have been my mentors, and most important they have contributed more to these guilds than any person on this forum and have earned the right to be where they are today. We can not have people be a part of something so important to this forum without ever doing anything to earn it, and that is what these individuals have done.

Finally I come to my conclusion, and I hope that all the people who have been active in this thread and the council have read this far. In the end I am to do something that I never thought I would see myself do, NEVER in all my days on this forum. I hold this guild more dear to my heart than anything on this forum. As I hope you all can see, it was my brainchild, and nothing gave me more joy than to see it come to life. Despite this, this prize possession of mine has gotten out of control, and beyond my grasp. It is my unfortunate duty to let you all know that the Wizards Guild is hereby dismissed. The only thing that will remain is, indeed, the White Council. I have already proven why they deserve to stay. I thank each and every member of this guild for all that you have done for it. I have kept up with every member, and every thread, and watched you all. Despite your mistakes, I will always be proud of what this guild has done for this forum. I thank you all.

Finally I do realize that this decision will anger multiple people, but so will the other decisions. I feel having only the White Council makes more sense than anything, and I feel that it is the better option than anything. I am sorry for who this offends, but I did start this guild and it is at my power to shut it down if need be. I thank you all for your time and patience.
~Mithers

[Valar]

Very well, i think it is for the best.
Although i hold many of my friends in the guilds dear to me, my powers i do not, for i have only used them once or twice. I already said before you post this that only the white council should be left, so i'm happy.
It has been a pleasure serving for you Eomer and Mithers, and i will allways be alliged with you.
*Hands in his staff to mithrandir, and bows to Eomer. And walks through the doors to the open plains of rohan*

[Lucie Baggins]

I've noticed that most of the people that think that we should get rid of all the guilds except for the White Council have been part of the White Council.

[Khamul]

I agree with Snaga, I have only used my powers in a serious rpg onve, and I may have gone a little overboard with it, but not too severely I think.

And what about the mancers? Are we obliged to make a Dark Council?

[Dengen-Goroth]

Sting, I think we should discuss that topic in the Dark Legion.

[Ciryaher]

I will put in my two-cents.

I think the idea that newbies are being excluded is ridiculous. Everyone was a newbie at one point, and all should have to prove that they have the slightest clue about what is going on before being allowed into a guild. I know for a fact that MOST of the people in the Wizards' Guild were newbies at the time they joined. I also know that a lot of the people who joined the Wizards' Guild joined simply to belong to the group. When you say 'I've only used my powers once or twice', that signifies to me that you really weren't concerned about the powers you were being entrusted with and only wanted the group association.

I remember how every single one of you were newbies (the only people that have been around longer are Webmaster and Pontifex, and neither of them RP). Every 'veteran' you see today was a newbie, and they had to go through the same process of making a name for themselves that you do and will. A very good way of making a good impression is to write as well as you possibly can. Sloppy writers are irritating and people who don't read up on Tolkien or the Forum RPs look like fools. Don't make numerous, short posts and you will find that you get a great deal of respect, whether you be a good or an evil character.

~Cir

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Well, I can't say that I didn't see this coming...

I would like to note this infamous occasion as the beginning of the downfall of the White Council. The group that has, for a long time been highly critisized and scorned has pulled the plug and let its members go. All that are left are the wise Mithrandir, the faithful Eomer, the little-active Ashaman, the rash Aerin, the silent Talerin, and Ness (whom I know little about). They alone stand to undo the doings of the Dark Legion. This move, while it may have seemed wise at the beginning, seems more and more foolish every time my mind wanders to it, and I beg Mithrandir to dwell on it but a bit longer.

[Ciryaher]

The Dark Legion never made any truly hostile move before, and under the wise, yet pacifistic Dengen-Goroth, I doubt they ever will.

What power to combat the Dark Legion the Istari had they still have, I believe.

[Mithrandir]

Elessar, Ness was rplaced with White Rider, we also have Dain Ironfoot. These are a few guys you forgot, and Ashaman may be replaced if he is not active any longer. As for the Dark Legoin we are NOT at war with them, and if we ever do there are allies. And let us not forget that in Tolkiens ME there were even less wizards, and they NEVER had followers. Think about that.

Lucie Baggins, Valar was never a part of the White Council.
~Mithers

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Of course, I didn't think Ness's name sounded right. And I could had sworn that I read that Dain foresook that post. And you must also remember that Tolkien's Istari were all Maiar, adn that his White Council was made of more than the Istari, for indeed, they were but a faction of it.

[Eomer Dinmention]

Yes But I believe that the White Council aren't all Maiar only Mithrandir is