Which are the Two Towers?

[Alatar]

Minas Tirth is not in it though, when Orthanc is. Though the to Minas' could be it.

[ingolmo]

Here's a qoute from The Return of the King Chapter 10: The Black Gate opens to liven up the arguments here.
... and now near loomed the great rampart of Cirith Gorgor, and the Black Gate amidmost, and the two Towers of the Teeth tall and dark upon either side...
Whatdya think?

[Kelendil]

I just finished FOTR again this afternoon, and this is what is says on the last page. I had never noticed it before, but I had the forum in mind. It says:


"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; it tells of the deeds and perils of all the members of the now sundered fellowship, until the coming of the great darkness."


Therein lies the answer.

[Ingwë]

This is endless thread...
If we think about Book Two, 'The Two Towers', then the Two Towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul. If we think about the Book 'The Lord of the Rings', then I think that two towers are Minas Tirith and Barad-Dur. The Dark lord attacked the White Tower - Minas Tirith.

[ingolmo]

But this thread is about the Two Towers, not the LotR. If it were about LotR, there would be innumerable choices for the two towers. And if it is said in the LotR, then it's correct. That said, Minas Morgul and Orthanc are the Two Towers.

[Ingwë]

J. R. R. Tolkien - Letter 140
I now suggest as titles of the Volumes under the over-all title lord of the Rings: Volume I: The Fellowship of the Ring, Volume II: The Two Towers, Volume III: The War of the Ring (or, if you still prefer that: The Return of the King).
The Fellowship of the Ring will do, I think, and it fits with the fact that the last chapter of the Volume is the "Breaking of the Fellowship". The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambigious: I might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and Barad-dur or to Isegard and Cirith Ungol. On reflections I prefer for Volume III The War of the Ring, since it gets to the Ring again and also is more non-committal, and gives less hinty of the story: the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice...
Is that enough?

[Galin]

A Tolkien approved quote, and published in The Lord of the Rings...


"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; it tells of the deeds and perils of all the members of the now sundered fellowship, until the coming of the great darkness."


And already posted too, but perhaps not yet in this colour ;)

Galin

[Ingwë]

Book III:
The story in about the battle at Helm's Deep and destroying Orthanc.

Book IV:
The story is about Frodo, Sam, Smeagol, Cirith Ungol...

There are two different stories!

Letter #143
I am sending now Book III, first half of Vol. II, carefully corrected. Book IV is nearly done and shall follow on Monday.
I have also revised Vol. III and can let you have the MS. of that (as far as the end of the story) as soon as you wish. The matter for the extra 50 pages I shall not be able to do just yet.

I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, actually no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented separately as a volume.

[Galin]

Tolkien decided to publish (allow to be published) Orthanc and Minas Morgul in The Lord of the Rings.

Tolkien also decided to ultimately submit (for publication) a rendering of Orthanc and Minas Morgul for the cover of The Two Towers.

Posting information from Tolkien's letters might be interesting here, but Tolkien-approved published text is another matter in my opinion. Tolkien's final rendering of the cover became somewhat 'behind the scenes' in itself, as things worked out (though this cover has since been published), but in any case Tolkien submitted the illustration for publication at the time -- he did not submit a drawing of Cirith Ungol for example -- nor did he reject the text intended to appear at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring and refer his publishers to a letter he had once written stating that he was unhappy with the title (or whatever).

Tolkien also vacillated about Celeborn for example. Unpublished accounts may be interesting (and are), but they shouldn't necessarily muddle up the fact that Tolkien published that Celeborn was one of the Sindar (as opposed to a Teler of Aman as described in a letter).



Galin

[Bergil]

maybe the two towers are Sam and Frodo...haha just a thought

[Ingwë]

Book III and Vook IV are quite different. The Title 'The Two Towers' is a title that tries to unite the two books.

And here are the other 'possible' titles:
The Lord of the Rings. I The Return of the Shadow.
" " " " " II The Shadow Lengthens.
" " " " " III The Return of the King.

Would it not do if the 'book-titles' were used: e.g. The Lord of the Rings: Vol. I The Ring Sets out and The Ring Goes South; Vol. II The Treason of Isengard, and The Ring goes East; Vol. III The War of the Ring, and The End of the Third Age'?

Do you see 'The Two Towers'? No :) .

And you say 'Tolkien decided to publish (allow to be published) Orthanc and Minas Morgul in The Lord of the Rings.'
I think that's enough :) Maybe the publishers wanted the answer of the question; Tolkien gave them the answer but he didn't want.

Btw, Galin, where are you from? My real name is Galin and I am from Bulgaria :)

[Eowyn of Rohan]

I always thought the two towers were Orthanc and Minas Morgul. In my Fellowship of the Ring book, at the end, it says something like "The next book, The Two Towers, focuses on Orthanc, where Saruman is, and Minas Morgul, home to the secret passage into Mordor". Obviously, that's not the correct wording but you get the idea of what I'm talking about.

[ingolmo]

A Tolkien approved quote, and published in The Lord of the Rings...


"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; it tells of the deeds and perils of all the members of the now sundered fellowship, until the coming of the great darkness."


And already posted too, but perhaps not yet in this colour ;)

Galin

I posted that actually, and I still stand by it, even though Ingwe's quote is quite convincing. But the thing is, that at the time when Tolkien wrote that letter, he was still uunnsure of that, but in the quote that I and Galin gave, Tolkien seemed sure of that fact.

[Ingwë]

But the thing is, that at the time when Tolkien wrote that letter, he was still uunnsure of that, but in the quote that I and Galin gave, Tolkien seemed sure of that fact.Galin and you? That means me and you :D And the other Galin and you as well.
About the thread: some time ago I was checking the Letters. As far as I remember there was something about the Two Towers. I wrote that paragraph on paper. I'll find it and I'll post here :)

[Galin]

from Letter #140 to Rayner Unwin 17 August 1953
'...The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous – it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol.1 On reflection I prefer for Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story : the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice.'

from Letter #143 to Raynor Unwin 22 January 1954... I post the letter in its entirety, 'I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, actually no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented separately as a volume.'

Here follows a footnote to Letter #140 from The Letters. I'm not sure whether the commentary is from Humphrey Carpenter (Editor) or Christopher Tolkien (Contributor).

Footnote to Letter #140, [140] '1. In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin (no. 143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see no. 151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-homed (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name. Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (The Fellowship of the Ring p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgûl flies.'

Grond posted this, in this thread, back in 2002.

In any case, according to Wayne Hammond, Tolkien ultimately approved the explanation (for publication) about the towers that appears in The Fellowship of the Ring. Tolkien also submitted his final design for the cover of The Two Towers (see J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator. London: HarperCollins; Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1995 by Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull). This drawing has now also been published as a cover for The Two Towers and depicts the same two towers as described in The Fellowship.

Galin

[Grond]

Grond posted this, in this thread, back in 2002.

In any case, according to Wayne Hammond, Tolkien ultimately approved the explanation (for publication) about the towers that appears in The Fellowship of the Ring. Tolkien also submitted his final design for the cover of The Two Towers (see J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator. London: HarperCollins; Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1995 by Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull). This drawing has now also been published as a cover for The Two Towers and depicts the same two towers as described in The Fellowship.

GalinHoly crapola! It was that long ago?? Seems like it was only yesteday.

BTW, I thought this issue was settled long ago. Did someone not read the entire thread?? Naughty! Naughty!

Cheers,

grond