Sauron the Necromancer in Mirkwood

[Úlairi]

Sauron, referred to in 'The Hobbit' as the 'Necromancer' occupied Dol Guldur whilst Bilbo was in Mirkwood. Imagine if Sauron had captured Bilbo? He would have obtained the One Ring and LotR would have never taken place, except if it was the point of view of Sauron.

[Gamil Zirak]

That would have been devastating. Suaron would have ultimate control of middle earth. Thank goodness he was too busy looking in the river for the ring to notice Bilbo and Co.

[StinkhornJake]

I think that if Gandalf and Sarumon had really known (and not just suspected) the true origins of the evil in Mirkwood, then they would have been too pre-occupied with Sauron for Gandalf to concern himself with mere dragon gold!

Plus - Sauron had no idea as to the presence or possessions of Golum, nor Bilbo for that matter. The ring was perfectly safe passing through (and later, around) his evil realm - even if it's bearer wasn't.

[Gamil Zirak]

Gandalf wasn't merely concerned with dragon gold. He didn't want Sauron to be able to use Smaug as a weapon.

Sauramon was perfectly happy with Sauron in Mirkwood because he could keep an eye on him. He only went along with the idea of flushing the Necromancer out because Sauramon was afraid that Sauron would find the ring in the river.

[ReadWryt]

What I find interesting is that the Silmarillion makes reference to Sauron "taking form" and posing as the Necromancer of Mirkwood...but elsewhere there are statements that Sauron could not take form...I wonder what was up with that?

[Gamil Zirak]

Was Sauron a physical being at this point or just a wraith-like presence? If I remember correctly, Gollum states something about Sauron's four fingers later on in the LoTR. I wonder what the Necromancer looked like. I guess it's possible to believe that Sauron was a wraith-like presence because it was first thought that the chief nazgul (a wraith) was the Necromancer of Mirkwood.

[Úlairi]

ReadWryt, it is undisputed that Sauron could take physical form in the Third Age.

"There are four fingers on the Black Hand."

These are the words of Gollum to Frodo.

[Úlairi]

ReadWryt? *echoes around thread*

[Bucky]

What is this?
The Ametuer Thread? ;)

>>>>I think that if Gandalf and Sarumon had really known (and not just suspected) the true origins of the evil in Mirkwood, then they would have been too pre-occupied with Sauron for Gandalf to concern himself with mere dragon gold!

They DID know, for sure.
The Tale of the Years, Third Age:

2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that it's master is indeed Sauron.

2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.

2941 Thorin Oakenshield & Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum & finds the Ring......

Basically, The White Council kept the info that The Necromancer was Sauron quiet.


As for Sauron's shape, it's been thoroughly discussed up here.
It took a LONG time for him to 'reshape' after Isildur cut the Ring from his finger & his spirit fled from his body.

I think the movie showing this 'Eye' distorts people's idea of Sauron's shape at the end of the Third Age.

Gollum states PLAINLY "He has only 4 fingers on one hand, but they are enough."
Pippin says after looking into the Palantir "Then HE came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked and I understood"
Sounds very much like a physical pressance to me.


And, while Thorin & Company were getting lost in Mirkwood, in Thrandruil's kingdom, might I add, The Necromancer, 300-450 miles to the south, was busy being driven from Dol Gulder by the White Council.........

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Bucky
What's this? The Ametuer Thread?

How true, well, now you're here Bucky, so lets talk, you and I!

Originally posted by Bucky
Gollum states PLAINLY "He has only 4 fingers on one hand, but they are enough."

That's what I said Bucky. Hey, keep the Sauron knowing of the existence of the Balrog thread going OK?

[Grond]

Bucky, are we getting a tad bit arrogant in our old age? Amateur thread indeed! The topic is what might have transpired had Sauron captured Bilbo with the Ring... which is a valid "professional" topic. Please don't be condescending to others. There ain't no "niceness" in it. :)

[Úlairi]

Yes Bucky, don't call my thread amateur!

[Hirila]

Back to what brought us here:

I don`t think that Gandalf knew of what could have happened if the Necromancer had got hold of Bilbo`s ring.
Remember, he only was sure of it`s being the One Ring when he put it into the fire before Frodo set off for his journey.

[Úlairi]

Great point! I have deduced this from your post Hirila, so feel proud! At that time Gandalf had no idea who the Necromancer was and he had no idea that the Ring Bilbo had was the One, so they were extremely vulnerable in Mirkwood.

[Beleg Strongbow]

I'm not sure about this i think that sauron's army wasn't ready to fight a battle there and then. He would probably wait a while giving the elves time to flee and time for his army to be unbeatable then go to war.He would start at lorien and thraundil's home then progress up to erebor and dale take them, then recapture the Angmar and assualt Arnor from there and dol guldur. While this would be happening armiews from mordor would take minas tirith and rohan and Isengard from there they would just crush the rest. This would need careful planning and a great number of people though. He wouldn't have had that at the time of the hobit.

[Úlairi]

But Beleg, they were thirteen dwarves and one hobbit to overcome! Sauron could have easily caught them before they reached Thranduil's kingdom. Gandalf was on his way to the Necromancer (Sauron). All Sauron had to do was go himself. Kill Bilbo and the rest of the company, take the Ring and he would be the ultimate ruler of ME!

[Beleg Strongbow]

Yes im sure of that. I meant that he wouldn't be able to destroy everything at once. His army wouldn't be ready. He would have to wait a little longer.

[Hirila]

And Sauron, that is, the Necromancer, didn`t know where the Ring was. He learned it from Gollum much later. All he could do at the time was try to become as powerful as possible. That he was driven out from Mirkwood was sheer bad luck for him.

There is another interesting question: what would have hapened if Sauron could`ve staid in Mirkwood? Would he sooner or later have gone to Barad-Dur, or would he have staid the Necromancer he was?

[Wood Elf]

Good question. You know, I always pictured the Necromancer to look like some horrid swamp creature from the old 50's movies! :D Lurking through the shadows and dark trees of Mirkwood, waiting...waiting for some unexpected ditzy blonde chic to come into his trap! (like in the movies) :D Heh heh!

[Beleg Strongbow]

I've never really thought what he would look like. But i think just a spirit or shadow while he is taking form, would be what he looked like.

[Úlairi]

If anyone wishes to know my depiction of Sauron the Necromancer. I always pictured him in physical form as a Black Rider, only taller. His face completely hidden. And then in LotR I was surprised when I saw the movie, because I have a vivid imagination I had always depicted Sauron the way PJ did, which I found amazing.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ulairi
If anyone wishes to know my depiction of Sauron the Necromancer. I always pictured him in physical form as a Black Rider, only taller. His face completely hidden. And then in LotR I was surprised when I saw the movie, because I have a vivid imagination I had always depicted Sauron the way PJ did, which I found amazing.


Yes same. I nevber 6thought in my wildest dreams that sauron woul;d look the way he did in the movie. Big massive warrior dude. I thought he wopuld ber smaller and more cunning the massive and strong.

[Úlairi]

No, I had always depicted Sauron as extremely tall and warrior-like, with a lot of armor. I never could depict a face so I put a mask over it just like PJ did.

[Úlairi]

Anyone else depict Sauron the same way?

[Wood Elf]

Hehe, swamp thang! :D

[Úlairi]

Swamp thang?

[Úlairi]

Wood Elf? *echoes around thread*

[Wood Elf]

Hehe, yeah! Swamp thing! Thats what I always pictured the Necromancer to look like. :D Trudging through the dark forests, hiding in the shadows...

[Bucky]

Sorry if I offended you with my Ametuer Thread comment.
There was so much incorrect information posted up to that point, that's why I said that.

There's 2 ways Sauron is depicted in the movie.
I was referring to the Eye one where PJ has it made up like Sauron is a spirit that can't take form.

That's incorrect.
Sauron's face?
'And the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves & Men could endure'

So, I see a kind of Cyclops looking face, probably burned black......

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Bucky
Sorry if I offended you with my Ametuer Thread comment.
There was so much incorrect information posted up to that point, that's why I said that.

There's 2 ways Sauron is depicted in the movie.
I was referring to the Eye one where PJ has it made up like Sauron is a spirit that can't take form.

That's incorrect.
Sauron's face?
'And the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves & Men could endure'

So, I see a kind of Cyclops looking face, probably burned black......

No problem Bucky, I know when a thread is amateur, even if amateur threads can come from me.:D Yes, there was a lot of false information, but I believe I always stick to the facts through and through. Perhaps you could point out where I went wrong Bucky? I don't think you can.

[Greenwood]

Posted by Ulairi
Yes, there was a lot of false information, but I believe I always stick to the facts through and through. Perhaps you could point out where I went wrong Bucky? I don't think you can.

Let's look at that first sentence. You "always stick to the facts through and through"? Really? As in the following from your "Identity of the Lord of the Nazgul" thread:

Post by Ulairi
I was trying to stir up debate by once again distorting Tolkien's writings.

Or earlier from your "Saruman's Ring" thread:

Post by Ulairi
Greenwood, you were right all along and I knew it from post one. I just gave a false opinion to see if someone would catch a sniff of my argument, which they did and based their arguments upon it which were entirely false.

As for Bucky proving you wrong, Bucky already had. You posted:

At that time Gandalf had no idea who the Necromancer was ...

but five posts above your statement Bucky had already posted from teh Tale of Years:

2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that it's master is indeed Sauron.

2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.

2941 Thorin Oakenshield & Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum & finds the Ring......

So Bucky had already shown that Gandalf knew who the Necromancer was 90 years before Bilbo's adventure.

[Grond]

BUSTED!!!! :);)

[Bucky]

Actually, there was a few others besides Ulairi who posted up incorrect things before I posted my first comment.

Grond - I guess I am getting old & grumpy. Maybe I should change my name to Thorin Oakenshield.
Read my post on Tom Bombadil being annoying.....
On one 'Grateful Dead' (the band) site, I was called a "crusty old f*rt" last week.


Now, on the subject, Is there any information as to how much of a developed & functional army or any sort of military power The Necromancer had at this time, the time of his supposed 2nd 'retreat'?

Was there an actual attack by The White Council to repel him?
What means were used to expell him?
What were those 'devices of Saruman used to repel him?
Wouldn't a military attack have been noted in The Tale Of the Years?
And wouldn't Thranduil's people probably have had a part in any military campaign?

All we have supporting any sort of armed military power of the Necromancer at that time, to my knowledge, is Gandalf saying in UT "I think he (Necromancer/Sauron) was planning, & am now sure, to attack Rivendell."

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
BUSTED!!!! :);)

Yes, I was in other threads but not in this one. Besides, what I did was deliberate in the other threads.

I posted this at the beginning of the thread.

Originally posted by Ulairi
Sauron, referred to in 'The Hobbit' as the 'Necromancer' occupied Dol Guldur whilst Bilbo was in Mirkwood. Imagine if Sauron had captured Bilbo? He would have obtained the One Ring and LotR would have never taken place, except if it was the point of view of Sauron.

Here is the full quote from the Tale of Years:

Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to attack Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of Five Armies in Dale. Death of Thorin II. Bard of Esgaroth slays Smaug. Dain of the Iron Hills becomes King under the Mountain (Dain II).

I was merely wondering if Sauron could have snatched the Ring from Bilbo whilst he was in Mirkwood. IMO, it is simple for a Maia to travel quite quickly. Gandalf left them on the edge of Mirkwood. Whilst Gandalf was making his way down to Dol Guldur, Sauron could have made his way up to Bilbo, and Gandalf would have never known. So, in this thread I did not go wrong Bucky.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Bucky
Actually, there was a few others besides Ulairi who posted up incorrect things before I posted my first comment.

Grond - I guess I am getting old & grumpy. Maybe I should change my name to Thorin Oakenshield.
Read my post on Tom Bombadil being annoying.....
On one 'Grateful Dead' (the band) site, I was called a "crusty old f*rt" last week.


Now, on the subject, Is there any information as to how much of a developed & functional army or any sort of military power The Necromancer had at this time, the time of his supposed 2nd 'retreat'?

Was there an actual attack by The White Council to repel him?
What means were used to expell him?
What were those 'devices of Saruman used to repel him?
Wouldn't a military attack have been noted in The Tale Of the Years?
And wouldn't Thranduil's people probably have had a part in any military campaign?

All we have supporting any sort of armed military power of the Necromancer at that time, to my knowledge, is Gandalf saying in UT "I think he (Necromancer/Sauron) was planning, & am now sure, to attack Rivendell."

It says that Sauron abandoned Dol Guldur, so I am unsure what to believe Bucky. But Sauron IMO could have still easily have scored the Ring if he knew it was in Bilbo's possession.

[Gamil Zirak]

Originally posted by Ulairi
Yes, I was in other threads but not in this one. Besides, what I did was deliberate in the other threads.

You should be careful with those deliberate misguidings. It's a good way to lose your credibility.

[Úlairi]

They weren't misjudgements. I was doing it to stir up debate and I have apologised for it a thousand times over that what I did was wrong and that I'll never do it again. As for my credibility, it's going down the toilet I believe.

[Grond]

Naw Ulari.... I still believe you and take you seriously. Keep up the good posting and look for my new... new thread in the Silmarillion starting tomorrow. I ain't giving nothing away yet... but like the last one, the first word in the title is .... Feanor. :)

[Úlairi]

Yes, it seems I have lost a lot of creditability. I am glad you take me seriously Grond. I guess intelligence isn't the only thing you need on this forum, it's unselfishness and many other qualities that seem to make you the person you are Grond. I am still taken seriously by others in the forum and people are making statements that it is futile to argue against me. I do not wish to daunt anyone on the forum. I was up late last night and I realised that I saw a lot of Harad in me, despite the fact that he is very intelligent, he encroached it upon others of less intelligence (not you Grond :)), I seem to be doing that also, and I will do it no longer. I have gotten a big head and soon I won't be able to walk through any doors! My pride has been my downfall, and I believe that I have a lot of creditability to lose. In fact, I will post a thread in the Member Announcements Forum right now to apologise.

[Grond]

No offense Ulari, but you're taking yourself entirely too seriously.

[Úlairi]

Good, I won't then anymore Grond. I feel so much better getting that off my chest.

[Greenwood]

I do not wish to daunt anyone on the forum. I was up late last night and I realised that I saw a lot of Harad in me, despite the fact that he is very intelligent, he encroached it upon others of less intelligence (not you Grond ), I seem to be doing that also
Ulairi

I think you need to try eating and digesting a few more pieces of that humble pie you told Bucky you were having. :)

[Bucky]

Ulairi,

I hope you don't take this as an insult, but you have a long way to go to reach Harad's status.
If this was Harad's thread, it would be 12 pages long by now.

:o

[Grond]

And four of the posters would have already been banned as well. :D;)

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Bucky
Ulairi,

I hope you don't take this as an insult, but you have a long way to go to reach Harad's status.
If this was Harad's thread, it would be 12 pages long by now.

:o

No offence taken. I completely agree with all of you guys.;) :)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Kool

[Eledhwen]

- just reminding myself what this thread's about.

I just want to add something to the subthread about when Gandalf realised that Bilbo had the One Ring. I quote from The Hobbit, chapter 6 (Gandalf speaks when Bilbo returns after escaping from the Goblins in the Misty Mountains, getting past the guard, BALIN, unseen.) '"What did I tell you?" said Gandalf "Mr Baggins has more about him than you guess." He gave Bilbo a queer look from under his bushy eyebrows, as he said this, and the hobbit wondered if he guessed at the part of his tale that he had left out.' Gandalf also says in LotR I p63 "it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know what I feared."

Gandalf's foresight just needed some hard evidence, but as we all know, he didn't have the final proof until he put the ring in the fire.

PS: What is it about this thread that makes people so argumentative and defensive?

[Úlairi]

I agree with you Eledwhen.

Originally posted by Eledwhen
P.S. What is it about this thread that makes people so defensive?

Me.