Silmarillion and Bible

[fëanáro]

wont say anything, i´ve already said everything i thought i had to in the "WHAT IS IT ABOUT?" thread.
just wanna know everyone´s opinion to see where we are.

Note: no one´s opinion is the most valid or the right one. this is a points of view thread, maybe a discussion or debate thread, but that´s it.

[Bucky]

I think the similarities are there.
Melkor falls in pride like Satan, wanting to be worshipped, not worship The Creator.

[Lindir]

As far as I´m concerned they are both works of fiction, so they share that. But I don´t think that I would compare Sil with the Bible; rather to the Poetic Edda and and other northern sagas, since Tolkien derived much of Middle Earth from these.

[fëanáro]

the Bible is not 100% fiction, some people say it is 0% fiction. I´m no priest and dont know exactly how much could be thought as fiction.

[Mormegil]

The Sil is a creation story like the Bible. But it has no real religious teachings in it so in some ways it is unlike the Bible.

[Brent]

Actually it IS a bible in the true sense of the word i.e. its a collection of books brought together

Is it like the Bible, I think not.

[baraka]

Originally posted by Lindir
As far as I´m concerned they are both works of fiction, so they share that. But I don´t think that I would compare Sil with the Bible; rather to the Poetic Edda and and other northern sagas, since Tolkien derived much of Middle Earth from these.

To someone who is a catholic, that remark that the bible is a work of fiction is very rude. I´ll admit that some of it is fiction but not all of it.

[Woo]

No! No! Well Maybe!
I do not class myself as belonging to any religion, but i do belive that many of the events in the Bible are true, if u dont believe me check out certain areas in the middle east and historic artifacts and then decide for ur self.
In the case of satan wanting to be worshiped, that spirit believes he can be greater than God. We will all find out whether the events in bible r true when we die.
Sorry i think ive gone off the point!
Considering the fact the that the author was a devoted Christian(sorry spm), when reading the sil. it does remind me of the creation of the earth in the bible amongst other thinks?

[Lindir]

Originally posted by baraka


To someone who is a catholic, that remark that the bible is a work of fiction is very rude. I´ll admit that some of it is fiction but not all of it.

Just stating an opinon, what´s rude about that?

[Silver11/17]

Although I am a Christian, I don't find the above statement offensive, just inaccurate. The Bible is definately not a word of fiction, as can be proven historically. I suppose some people might interpret parts of it as fiction or folklore (although i believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible), but as was previously mentioned, other historical documents and artifacts support claims made in the Bible as to specific people and events.
I think the Silmarillion is like the Old Testament of the Bible, as there are parallels between the creation stories, the discord of Melkor and the fall of Satan, the Valar & Maiar (angels), the Children of Eru (people), etc. Also, as was stated before, it is a compilation of books, as is the Bible. However, the rest of the Sil doesn't have much of a spiritual base, and reminds me of a very interesting history book. So I think it can be interpreted in many different ways, however, i believe that Tolkien intended it to be comparable with the Bible.

[Firiel]

"Is the Silmarilion like the Bible?"

"Like", in what sense of the word? Structure? Narative voice? Plot? Source? Linguistic Style? History? There are lots of ways to read that question, and each may involve a different answer from the same person.

[Luthien]

I think that when Tolkien created middle earth, he tought that as any "world" it should have a mythological background and history, so he conceived the histories in the book to give middle earth the history that any country or world has, and also the myths that all civilization decvelops.

[Gabriel]

Hi to all!

Since I read the Sil for the first time I was thinking that it has quite a lot of similarities to the Bible. Everything begins when God creates the world, then the most powerful of his servants (Melkor-Lucifer) starts a rebellion and becomes evil.
After that Feanor acts against the Valars and refuses to do their will (like Adam that eats the apple). Feanor-Cain kills his brother(s)and leaves Valinor-Eden.
Then everything falls apart until Jesus-Earendil restores the link between humanity and the creator.
What do you think about this?

[Dol Amroth]

The similarities between The Silmarillion and the Christian Holy Book have been very mush talked about. See the thread about Morgoth and Evil for one example. But bear in mind that the bIble is merely the best known example in our culture of these sorts of myths. Tolkien also draws heavily on Norse culture, and really, all creation myths are pretty much similar in the basics!

[tasar]

It seems to me that Tolkien mixed different ideas together very nicely. By those I mean
1)God(like the cristian or the muslim one) - Iluvatar
2)many gods(like the Greek pantheon) - Valar
3)Lesser spirits(like in most beliefs) - Maiar

[Dol Amroth]

Originally posted by tasar
2)many gods(like the Greek pantheon) - Valar
3)Lesser spirits(like in most beliefs) - Maiar

Strictly speaking though, the Valar and Maiar are both of the same order, and are both lesser spirits, just of various various strengths and powers. But I see your point.

[Narya]

For one thing, J.R.R. Tolkien is one of the english translators of the modern Bible, so he has read it many times, and obviously has grown in him. Secondly, his children also share the same interest in the Bible as he has and Tolkien may have influenced greatly the style of Christopher's writing.

But a minor correction, if I may, Lucifer/Satan is not the most powerful being that God created. He was an angel, but not the most powerful.

[Grond]

Actually, I like to refer to the Valar and Maiar of the Angelic Order which is also a (pirated) Christian concept. Angels are also all of the same order but broken down by Arch-angels (Michael, Gabriel and, yes, Lucifer) and the regular Angels.

[Narya]

Gabriel and Lucifer were not Archangels.

Gabriel is just a messenger angel, while Lucifer was a Cherubim (no cherubims contrary to popular beliefs that they are little babies, these are the warrior angels). There is only ONE archangel and that is Michael. the order of angels are as follows:

ARCHANGEL - The head or leader
SERAPHIM - have 6 wings; two that cover the face, two that help them fly, and two that cover their feet. Their job is at the altar and sanctifiers.
CHERUBIM - warriors, two-winged angel with flaming rotating blade
MESSENGERS - self-explanatory.

[Niniel]

Actually, in Medieval theology there were nine orders of angels, of which the 'angels' were the lowest and the 'archangels' the second lowest, and the Seraphim were the highest. The higher they were, the closer they were to God, and the lower orders were closer to men. So the simple angels were the ones that had the most contact with humans, and the Archangels had also contact with humans, but only in more specific (important) matters. I believe this division depends on the Bible, where angels are most often mentioned as being sent by God, and after that the Archangels who are only sent in very important cases. I don't know for sure who the archangels were, but in the Bible Michael and Gabriel are called archangels, and there were some more, weren't there? But then agian, I'm no theologian, so I might be mistaken.

[Narya]

Don't mean to sound like a smarty pants, but I have studied the Bible thoroughly and should share this knowledge with everyone else. Medieval Theology have been mistaken on many accounts, including God himself. As for the order of angels there are only four mentioned in the Bible and I have posted them already. Gabriel is no archangel. He was a messenger. The other angels mentioned were two who guarded the doorway to the garden of Eden, they were Cherubs and they had a rotating flame between them to keep everyone out, for they might take of the fruit of life and live forever. Satan was of this order. That's why he had contact with Adam and Eve, he was a guard posted on Earth - eden to be precise. Then there was another account during the time of the Israelites plight out of Egypt. One Angel was sent to kill the firstborn children of the egyptians and other angels who guided the Hebrews towards the promised land, another account was the one solitary angel who killed 185,000 asyrians in one blow!! Then the Messengers sent to Abraham, and later to Sodom and Gomorrah, then to the Prophet Daniel. Then another incident with Jesus. There are more I know. But just to show trivial facts about the Bible and angels.

[elvish-queen]

Well, I don't know much about theology, but I would definately agree. The whole 'God creates the world' and battle against evil is there...
BTW, what do you all think about Harry Potter being banned in some Christian schools?? I think it's stupid cos it's really a fight against evil, and they don't worship any false gods, so I really don't agree with it. Luckily my school doesn't too!:D

[Narya]

I think the school officials were thinking of the further effect of the books on children. Harry Potter concentrate on witchcraft which is a known cult all over the world (it's existence dating back into ancient Babylon where all superstittious belief, including the Zodiac originated). Many educators I think feel that it will influence the way a young person thinks and make them more inclined to magic and the Craft rather than education and God.

But here's the thing, every book of fiction is the work of a person' imagination, and was meant if not for entertainment or a sense of achievement, it is also for lucritive purposes and they should all be taken as just that. Children have a different way of accepting these informations. That's why the parents should be there to level things out.

In fairness to Harry Potter, I think it's a well written book.

[Sam_Gamgee]

i not opnly believe in the bibla and am a born again christian i know for a fact LOTR and the sim have specific parrallels to the bible because tolkien purposly wrote the epic story to have certain parrallels and similarties in points

[Narya]

Because like I said, Tolkien was one of the earliest translators of the modern Bible.

Like Moria, Moria is a real place in the Bible it is a mountain where Moses and the Israelites camped under after the red sea event.

Let's just say that the Bible was his source of inspiration for LOTR.

[chrysophalax]

I believe that was Mt.Moriah.......and while I agree that the Bible was one source of inspiration,it would seem to me that his career as a linguist/Anglo-Saxon scholar/student of Norse mythology
had as much, if not more influence on this body of work, particularly
in his creation of languages.

[Narya]

While the Bible gave Tolkien a sort of Pattern to follow for his stories, the Norse Mytholody as well their written and spoken languages gave him the pattern for the identities of each race in middle earth as well as the languages, as you have pointed out. That is a good observation. Plus it makes Tolkien a bit more interesting personally, with this information, it makes you wonder if we can't do the same. :)

I am amazed at the languages he invented, imagine inventing a spoken and written language that will never be used by a country? But is beautiful and if learned may be very useful. I am learning Queenya right now and Sindarin, and I am going to teach my brothers to speak those languages too. So that we would have a language of our own and nobody will understand.

[Grond]

Actually, Tolkien based his original works on the Finnish Kalevala which is a saga along the lines of Classic Finnish/Norse Mythology.

The Biblical account of the creation, to Mount Moriah to Noah to Satan's banishment from heaven are also apparent in most other religions in our world. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic and as such would put a profound since of God in his works... but he purposefully kept it anti-religious. Notice that in the works, there are few mentions of worship of any kind. Two come to my memory, the Melkor worship performed during the darkening of Numenor under Sauron's influence and the Faithful of Numenor worshiping the Vala during the same time.

Other than those two examples, worship as we know it, doesn't exist in Middle-earth.

And this is my 2000th post. ;):):D

[chrysophalax]

Congratulations, Grond! I understand there's to be a party......?

[Dol Amroth]

Originally posted by Grond
Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic and as such would put a profound since of God in his works... but he purposefully kept it anti-religious.
Although you're right about the lack of organised worship in Tolkien's work, I don't know that we call it anti-religious. Perhaps areligious would be better. Especially in the case of LotR, which Tolkien described as fundamentally a Catholic work, unconciously so at first, conciously so in revisions.

[Grond]

Thank you for the correction Dol Amroth! My intention was to state a-religious and not anti-religious. The works speak little of religion which does not make the works against religion, merely absent of it.

[LoreMaster]

According to one LOTR fan I know, Tolkien was a born again Christian, and he was instrumental in leading C.S. Lewis(the author of the Chronicles of Narnia) to becoming a Christian also.

[Eledhwen]

Yes, Tolkien was a devout Christian (The term "Born again" wasn't popular in the RC Church in his day, and was little heard in any church in England). I am too, and I'm looking forward to meeting him one day! www.hollywoodjesus.com (LotR feature) has some good stuff to add to this subject, though it majors on LotR films, not The Sil.

[LoreMaster]

I'll also say that I'm a born again Christian, and I'm also looking foward to meeting Tolkien someday. It'll be cool to ask him how he imagined Middle-Earth and the whole storyline.

[Eledhwen]

Divine Inspiration (and many years hard work!)

[Eledhwen]

I quote from Tolkien's letter to Milton Waldman (1951), published in The Silmarillion where he says "The mere stories were the thing. They arose in my mind as 'given' things, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew. .... yet always I had the sense of recording what was already 'there', somewhere: not of 'inventing'."

Interesting, isn't it.

[Eledhwen]

I don't think Tolkien meant that God dictated ME to him and he just wrote it down. Tolkien was a wordsmith, a craftsman. The ideas, he says, were "given". The outworking and the resulting masterpiece was all his own, though he did have a strong tendency to give God the glory.

[Eledhwen]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that Tolkien didn't write something, then sit back and look astonished at what he wrote, then I agree with you.

If you are not a Christian yourself, then you and I think differently and, as a result, we understand Tolkien's spirituality differently.

Being brought up in the church doesn't cause someone to hear and receive from God; having a relationship with him does. Tolkien was not a Sunday Christian - God was part of his everyday life. Tolkien would have been more than happy to have God overrule all his work.

I am speculating, but the stories of the Silmarillion were born in the trenches of the Somme in WW1. I cannot think of a time when a believer would have held on to God more closely than in that terrible battle.

[Flame of Anor]

I am a Christian and if you ask me, when i started reading the Sil it was shocking how many things parallelled the Bible and the Creation account therewithin. It was all striking to me how Tolkien put his beliefs in God and how he created the universe and made it into a work that could be enjoyed by people of different faiths and beliefs.

-Flame

[Theoden]

I have not read the Sil, but I have a best friend who is reading it right now and he seems to think it comes really close to the Bible in a lot of ways. I want to get his copy really bad so that I can read it for myself.