Forum Battle Rules for RP wars!

[Snaga]

OK everyone, I've heard a lot of talk about wars recently. Being an orc, I got all excited about it, like kid at Christmas!

I've also seen some stuff saying we need some battle rules, so we can actually fight the fights, and know who the winner is. But there wasn't any agreement about rules.

So I thought I'd try and create some. You'll find them in the attached text file, with an familiar example. (I tried to make it easier to read by putting it in a BMP with nice fonts etc... but the file size was too large).

Have a look and let me know what you think.

I've tried to keep it fairly simple but realistic, and with no use of 'random' things like dice, computer generated numbers etc. That way there won't be so many disputes about the results. It tells you who would win, based on numbers, unit type, terrain, rulers/leaders and fortification. And it tells you how much damage gets done, based on the battle tactics of both sides.

I've got a spreadsheet version of this that I've done which you can just type in the information and it tells you the answer. It works on MS-Excel, and if you PM me with your e-mail address I'll send it through.

Let me know if you think this is usable or not. The 'would it work?' question is much more important than 'is this fair on elven archers?' or similar. We can get to that later!

Anyway here it is....

PS - if you think I've got way too much time on my hands... you could have a point!

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Sorry to seem a bit rude, but I do not agree with your figures, at least the multipliers part. There are far too many factors to use when doing this, and you have but a few. For instance, the infantry of Arnor and Gondor would be the better of all lands, but the cavalry of Rohan would be far superior to that of Arnor. And elves are some of the greatest warriors ever, and they have but a .5! I am sorry, but this table also seems greatly advantiged to the larger countries, especially Mornclaur.

[Snaga]

Elessar thanks for the comment - I don't think your rude. you actually replied which is good LOL!

I was wondering if I was the only one that thought we needed something... or if it was just so useless everyone was too embarrassed to say so.

On your comments, I'm quite happy to make modifications on the elves scores (or any others). The Rohirrim would be harder, but I would think you could put in a special allowance for them somehow.

I'd really like to know if this system is suitable in terms of getting the right balance between:
- being simple to use so it doesn't detract from posting good descriptions of battle by getting too into the stats...
- ... and being able to produce results that are reasonably realistic

Like you said, the second part needs some work to get the numbers more realistic...

But I want to know if this is the sort of battle system we could make use of? Or not. Be honest... I'm an orc and I am well used to insults and abusive language! I won't be offended if you think its no good.

[Ciryaher]

I like the system, but (like Elessar) I think nationalities need to be taken into consideration. And what about navies?

[Zale]

Snaga, what system did you base your rules on? The figures meant nothing to me (I know practically nothing about these things) but it seems to me than adding a small randon factor (e.g. a couple of 'dice rolls') would be the only way of representing the true chaos of the battlefield, and not making every fight a foregone conclusion to those who know the rules well enough; these people would only ever enter fights they know they could win with minimum casualties. No offense, but the rules may need a bit of rethinking.

If it's obvious to you that I'm talking complete tripe, then just ignore this post, OK?

BTW - I would have thought that the outcome of battles was surely less important than the narrative driving the battles?

[Snaga]

Zale those are good points.

Randomness... the problem is that the RPs don't have a 'gamesmaster' or similar to do the dice rolling. And if the participants are rolling offline and then posting the results... well I think I can predict with some certainty that there would be lots of improbable but highly convenient outcomes!! LOL

I didn't base the rules on anything. Is there anything similar? I don't play these sorts of games so I don't know either irl. I just invented them, to try to find a way of everyone agreeing what would happen in the storylines when a battle occurs. Yes I too think the narrative is the main thing... but who wins a battle is a key part of the narrative. When two people both think the narrative should lead to their glorious victory there's a problem!

So I guess the reason to not have randomness is that these are not strictly 'games' just role-plays. This is a tool for determining how a battle will turn out... so 'the right story' gets written.

You are right... people will avoid battles they can't win. But ain't that just reality? If I was a cynic, I might suggest that in the RP thread 'Friends or Foes' Ciryaher marched to the Gap of Rohan looking for an easy victory, and then saw the opposing force was bigger than expected and backed down. (That's not HIS story of course!)

Anyway these are just my views and this is just my first try at some rules. If anyone can improve on them, that's great.

[Ciryaher]

*throws an egg at snaga*

I heard that crack about Rohan!


I think that an agreeable outcome is nice, but it's about worthless if the writer doesn't have any writing ability. Battles have to be fun to read, not just tell what is happening. Like I said to Tal, "You must find the blessed realm of RP: between one-sentance chat and a story."

[Eomer Dinmention]

lol

Anyway Snaga I don't think Cir had any intentions to take on Rohan

But i must agree with everyone else. Nationality is an important thing

[Snaga]

* catches the egg, cooks it and has some breakfast

OK, my list of things to do:
1. Find a way of accomodating naval battles
2. Accomodate different nationalities of men
3. Toughen up the elves

Question: how are we using navies? Mostly they seem to be about moving troops from A to B. But you could fight from ship to ship - i.e. first ship tries to come along side and board the other. Technologically we're pre-cannon. What other things need to be accomodated?

As for how you use it the system so it doesn't get in the way of telling the story... perhaps putting the stats stuff in a text file attachment, so it can be looked at and checked, but keeping it seperate from the main part of the post... ie description of the battle?

* hey I just cooked that egg... I must be going soft...:mad:

[Dain Ironfoot]

Ok Dwarves may be slower, but they are the "stedfast" race of ME. They can fight trolls, orks, and even mountain men. These figures need work. I Think you should add speed and mabey something else too. The nations def. seem to come into play here.

[Zale]

I've just thought: how would we agree on the stats given to each race? Obviously each would want their own race to be stronger, and everybody else would want them to be less so.

And, as to the fairness of dice rolls (or any suitable alternative), I was thinking someone like a mod (as unbiased as possible, obviously) could make the roll (or whatever) and then post the results. Unfortunately, there would be a lot of time wasted waiting for a suitable mod to respond (assuming they found the thread in the first place). This would also seem a little unfair on the mods themselves, as constantly looking for threads that might have battles in would eat almost all of their time.
Perhaps we could ask the webmaster to design a program for us that would do such a task when the relevant command was entered.

[Ciryaher]

I *could* do the rolling, if that is what we decide on, but I'm sure that some of the members believe me to be highly biased (even though I find losing to be just as interesting as winning in RP's).

[¤-Elessar-¤]

*** just wondering, does anyone beleive that???***

[Snaga]

Well, yes of course I believe that some of the forum members think Cir is highly biased!

(And that's all you need to invalidate the idea! Cir could be as honest you like, but if someone doesn't think he is there's a problem)

BTW even if we find a way of bringing in a random element, lets not make it too strong. The improbable happens, but not often!

[Eomer Dinmention]

Well I talked to Valar about this Rules.

And he suggested it that it would just take away the fun of wars.

Using numbers and everything. Like 0.5 this and 0.6 that.

It might get a little boring

[SpencerC18]

I think its a good idea, now the key to the success of it is this: balance. No race can be more powerful than others. Just stronger in different areas than the next race. For example, elves are excellent archers so their range would be the best out of all the races, and proabbly more swift moving too. Dwarves have smaller legs, therefore will move slower but they might have better equipment or might be tougher than elves. I myself think this system is a great idea and I plan on helping Snaga anyway I can, so if anyone wants to help PM snaga.

Also there is a need of sometype of system to determine how large the people's army is. I think just saying a reasonable number isn't good enough.

[Snaga]

Thanks for your offer Spencer. I'd love some help.

IMO the real key to success is agreement from everyone that we want to go this way. So thanks to Eomer for posting Valar's opinion 'cos that's what we need to hear. Anyone else feel the same about this?

Perhaps the best thing to do is to test out the rules and see how we get on with them. I suggest a battle test: lets recreate the battle of Pelennor Fields and see how we get on. I'll start the thread in the RP Forum.

Lets have lots of participants... and normal standards of RP'ing apply... ie quality posts please!

[Kyrè]

AHHHH!! Number, Numbers!!! Something I am not good at. How bout this



Military leaders decide in advance, and work out something.

However, someone else out there could understand the importance on all those, ugh, numbers and explain it to me, or do it for me, cause right now I am at battle with Mordor and I wanted to check this out.

Maybe someone could interpret it for me in terms of:

1000 elves


Elessar is in charge of my army right now, get the details from him.

[Zale]

Snaga, perhaps you should create a poll, just to see what the forum in general thinks of this idea of yours. If they show support, then go ahead. If they don't, rethink.

[Snaga]

Good plan Zale. I'll do that after the battle test. If people see it in action, they can judge properly.