Feanor's Fate

[Grond]

This is a poll whether Feanor should be held accountable for his actions or whether ole Melkor (my ex-boss) should bear the blame. To here Ulari and Maedhros tell the story, poor old Feanor was the cream de la cream of Elfdom and was waylaid by the old bad guy Melkor. He was just a dumb patsy who should bear no responsibility for his actions... after all, it was really the Valar and Melkor who really screwed up.

Well, in case you don't see it, this thread is meant to incite new argument and "liven" the forum back up to Harad standards. So, let's have at it. :)

[Maedhros]

As usual Grond, you twist my words. Hmmmmm.
Maedhros tell the story, poor old Feanor was the cream de la cream of Elfdom and was waylaid by the old bad guy Melkor. He was just a dumb patsy who should bear no responsibility for his actions... after all, it was really the Valar and Melkor who really screwed up.
Fact:
1. Feanor was the most talented elf to ever lived:
. He became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand.
For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him.
2. The Valar (Manwe) were deceived when they freed Melkor:
For it came to pass that Melkor, as the Valar had decreed, completed the term of his bondage, dwelling for three ages in the duress of Mandos, alone. At length, as Manwë had promised, he was brought again before the thrones of the Valar. Then he looked upon their glory and their bliss, and envy was in his heart; he looked upon the Children of Ilúvatar that sat at the feet of the Mighty, and hatred filled him; he looked upon the wealth of bright gems, and he lusted for them; but he hid his thoughts, and postponed his vengeance.
Before the gates of Valmar Melkor abased himself at the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon, vowing that if he might be made only the least of the free people of Valinor he would aid the Valar in all their works, and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that he had done to the world. And Nienna aided his prayer; but Mandos was silentThen Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured
3. Melkor hated Feanor and his lies were directed at him.
Then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart. From that time forth, inflamed by this desire, he sought ever more eagerly how he should destroy Fëanor and end the friendship of the Valar and the Elves; but he dissembled his purposes with cunning, and nothing of his malice could yet be seen in the semblance that he wore.
4. The Silmarils were made after Melkor was freed and therefore he was influenced by him. See above quote.
5. Feanor is not guiltless. There is some blame in him, but the Valar could have prevented much more damage to Feanor, if they had acted more rapidly towards the inmediate threat.

Conclusions:
Feanor bears part of the guilt, but the Valar and Melkor are also responsible for this. I voted that all of them were responsible for Feanor's fate.

[Úlairi]

I was going to post my opinion guys, however, I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Sil, in which I need to quote from. However, I will be back guys.

Originally posted by Grond
...and "liven" the forum back up to Harad standards...

I am positive that this thread has extreme potential Grond. And we may even surpass the so-called 'Harad standard'. I will be back with guns blazing, I promise.

[Bucky]

The issue here is really more of a 'social' issue.

We live in a society where EVERYONE is a victim & blames someone else for their actions.

Nobody wants to take responsability & be held accountable nowadays.......

It's the tobacco companies fault you smoked their cigarettes & got cancer.
It's the gun manfacturer's fault you shot somebody with their gun.
It's my fault if you come to my house with a bottle of booze, drink it against my wishes & drive home drunk & kill someone.

Give me a break.
Nobody made Feanor stick a sword in his brother's chest, did they?
Or withold the Silmarils.
Or kill the Teleri & take their ships.
Or leave his brother & his people on the shore to go back to Valinor with their tails between their legs when he burned the ships.

Oh, I forgot.
It's all Melkor's fault for telling the Noldor about weapons.
Or, the Valar's fault for bringing them to Valinor.

[Chymaera]

Melkor planted the seeds.

The Vala were the fertilizer.

Feanor reaped the harvest.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Chymaera
Melkor planted the seeds.

The Vala were the fertilizer.

Feanor reaped the harvest.

My thoughts exactly. Great way of putting it Chymaera.

[Ancalagon]

The Greatest Elf is another entirely separate debate which I feel we can gladly enter into at a later date. Suffice to say it is most certainly not Feanor.

Was Feanor responsible for his own actions? It would be easy to simply allocate blame to everyone else, because they were Valar and Feanor was merely an innocent Eldar, trying to scrape a living making jewels and crafts. Piffle, Feanor was to blame for his actions and here is the reason why;

Feanor from an early age had begun to harbour both insecurity and arrogance, ever since Finwe had remarried his thoughts had turned,

The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.

Of course Melkor is not blameless, though his actions only sped up the wrath that Feanor already had within himself. The manufacture of the Silmarils was Feanors greatest work, yet with it came jealousy and contempt, arrogance and pride.

Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in his lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him. For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his Wife.

The heart of Fëanor was fast bound to these things that he himself had made.

For Fëanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.

Yet it was not Feanor alone who responded to the actions and whispers of Melkor, he voiced the discourse of the Noldor, who had already begun to question their place in Aman.

Ever Melkor found some ears that would heed him, and some tongues that would enlarge what they had heard; and his lies passed from friend to friend, as secrets of which the knowledge proves the teller wise. Bitterly did the Noldor atone for the folly of their open ears in the days that followed after.

Thus ere the Valar were aware, the peace of Valinor was poisoned. The Noldor began to murmur against them, and many became filled with pride, forgetting how much of what they had and knew came to them in gift from the Valar.

Feanor's greedy lust, even though spurred by Melkor's words that the Silmarils would always belong to the Valar, was the root of the fire that drove him. He would depart the thraldom of the Valar and lead HIS people to freedom.

For Fëanor now began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar, crying aloud that he would depart from Valinor back to the world without, and would deliver the Noldor from thraldom, if they would follow him.

Yet even though there was unrest among the Noldor, Fingolfin tried to sue for peace and reconcilliation between the brothers before Finwe the King. However, ever proud and arrogant, blinded by his own self-righteousness Feanor retaliated with threats and drawn sword;

But even as Fingolfin spoke, Fëanor strode into the chamber, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said. 'My half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters.' Then turning upon Fingolfin he drew his sword, crying: 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!'

The Valar knew of the discontent among the Noldor, they may have misjudged the actions of Melkor, not though was Manwe at fault, for Iluvatar made him without evil and evil he did not comprehend as is clear when Melkor is unchained;

But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow the wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.

Now the unrest of the Noldor was not indeed hidden form the Valar, but its seed had been sown in the dark; and therefore, since Fëanor first spoke openly against them, they judged that he was the mover of discontent, being eminent in self-will and arrogance, though all the Noldor had become proud.

Yet, even after the seeds of Melkor's words had been laid bare by Mandos, Feanor was still wrathful, vengeful and bitter;

There also were summoned all others who had any part in this matter, or any knowledge of it; and Fëanor standing before Mandos in the Ring of Doom was commanded to answer all that was asked of him. Then at last the root was laid bare, and the malice of Melkor revealed; and straightway Tulkas left the council to lay hands upon him and bring him again to the judgement. But Fëanor was not held guiltless, for he it was that had broken the peace of Valinor and drawn his sword upon his kinsman; and Mandos said to him: 'Thou speakest of thraldom. If thraldom it be, thou canst not escape it; for Manwë in King of Arda, and not of Aman only. And this deed was unlawful, whether in Aman or not in Aman. Therefore this doom is now made: for twelve years thou shalt leave Tirion where this threat was uttered. In that time take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. But after that time this matter shall be set in peace and held redressed, if others will release thee.'

And so Fingolfin released him, yet Feanor, consumed with anger and driven by humiliation left without acknowledgement.

Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Fëanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass; and the bitterness that Melkor had sown endured, and lived still long afterwards between the sons of Fingolfin and Fëanor.

Even as Melkor appeared at the doors of the exiled Feanor, it is clear that Feanor's jealousy over the Silmarils was prominent;

Now Fëanor's heart was still bitter at his humiliation before Mandos, and he looked at Melkor in silence, pondering if indeed he might yet trust him so far as to aid him in his flight. And Melkor, seeing that Fëanor wavered, and knowing that the Silmarils held his heart in thrall, said at the last: 'Here is a strong place, and well guarded; but think not that the Silmarils will lie safe in any treasury within the realm of the Valar!'

The rest we know is history, Melkor slays Finwe, Feanor curse Melkor and Manwe, oath made in pursuit of Melkor and his Silmarils, Manwe sends herald to ask reason, Feanor refuses, Aqualonde disaster etc etc.;

War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!'

No great love for the race of Men there either. Feanor was self-absorbed, arrogant and very much responsible for all his actions.

[Maedhros]

Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host. You forgot to mention one very important quote.
And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil.
Well, I think that JRRT is trying to thell us something.
Feanor from an early age had begun to harbour both insecurity and arrogance, ever since Finwe had remarried his thoughts had turned,
How do you know how another elf would have behaved in this circunstance. He was unique.
The manufacture of the Silmarils was Feanors greatest work, yet with it came jealousy and contempt, arrogance and pride.
Again, the silmarils were made after Melkor was freed in Valinor. He had already begun to poison the minds of the Noldor.
The Valar knew of the discontent among the Noldor, they may have misjudged the actions of Melkor, not though was Manwe at fault, for Iluvatar made him without evil and evil he did not comprehend as is clear when Melkor is unchained
By your own quoted is Manwe guilty. Ulmo was not deceived, then why was Manwe?
Feanor was self-absorbed, arrogant and very much responsible for all his actions.
Yes, he is responsible, but the Valar and Melkor hold a blame in there too.
The Greatest Elf is another entirely separate debate which I feel we can gladly enter into at a later date. Suffice to say it is most certainly not Feanor.
He is the "greatest elf". He is not the nicest or the noblest.
and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.
Yes, he is the greatest. His actions either good or bad had great influence in the world. Notice the "emphasis" on the word great. He was without rival, no other elf in history did as many great deeds as he. Great deeds does not necessarily mean good deeds, yet they had a great influence in the world.

[Ancalagon]

He was without rival, no other elf in history did as many great deeds as he. Great deeds does not necessarily mean good deeds, yet they had a great influence in the world.

Melkor or Sauron could easily then be called great, for their impact upon the world was 'great'. Alternatively, you could say they were all infamous. Surely greatness in these terms shows a complete disregard for those who must suffer the consequences of their 'great' actions.

Should greatness not be a positive impact, rather than an act of self-indulgence. For whom did Feanor seek retribution and revenge? For himself, certainly not his people or for his father. He was not great, but if he was was, the irony of his greatness was the doom of his people and himself.

[Grond]

Amcky-pancky pudnin and pie,
Posted the facts that made Maedhros cry.
When all the Feanor supporters came out to play,
Ancky-pancky flamed em away!

Thanks for looking up all of the dirty little details on Feanor that I knew were there but was too lazy to dig up. :)

[Maedhros]

Melkor or Sauron could easily then be called great, for their impact upon the world was 'great'. Alternatively, you could say they were all infamous.
Yes, that's true, but it doesn't makes him less great nevertheless.
greatness: adj.
1. Of outstanding significance or importance: a great work of art.
2. Superior in quality or character; noble
3. Powerful; influential.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
The definition that I'm using is # 1 and 3. If we were using definiton # 2 then, i would say that his works were far superior in quality in regards to any other elf, yet he was not noble in the end.

Back to the origin of the thread.
If you say that Feanor was the only responsible for his actions, then surely you are mistaken because, he was targeted personally by Melkor.
And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil.
Hello, are you reading this quote, Hmmmm. maybe JRRT had something else in mind when he wrote this.

[Grond]

So one would simply say that one isn't responsible for their own actions. Feanor was corrupted only because he was ripe to be corrupted. A "greater" Elf of character, such as his father or brothers, may well have resisted the silent attack of Melkor and not heeded his lies and whisperings.

Blaming it on Melkor is a cop out and makes Feanor less "great" because he was so easily manipulated by an evil Vala. It is ironic how closely Tolkien's history mirrors our very society today. Everyone wants to look for an excuse to blame someone else for one's own actions. Feanor's defenders are only too quick to point out all of the undue influences that were exerted upon him. Poor wittle Feanor. :(

[Gothmog]

I had to vote for 'All' as there is some blame on each side. I will not at this time post quotes as they have already been posted, I will confine myself just to my own thoughts poor as they are.

In order of responsability from most to least.

1. Feanor, The actions were his nobody Made him do so. While there were others who contributed to his decisions it was he that made them and he that carried them out, including trying to take as many of the Eldar as he could from the land of the Valar.

2. Melkor, He did all that he could to turn Feanor from the Valar. He has some blame in what followed his acts but much less than Feanor as he did not Force Feanor to do anything.

3. The Valar, Some of the Valar must bare some of the Blame as by releasing Melkor and allowing him to roam freely through Valinor they gave him the freedom to sow his lies and contribute to the trouble. Noteably, not all of the Valar were decieved but these were constrained by their belief in the athority of Manwe and could not therefore rebel against it.

So Feanor cannot be absolved of any of the blame for his actions. The others can only be blamed for their actions or lack thereof.

[Camille]

Ok I agree that Feanor was the mightiest of the eldar ( in skills and in .. how can I said, fire spirt?? ) he was a genius that imprisioned the light of aman, he probably made the palantir but.... It seams to me that he did not have a good head, he had deep problems in his relations with the others, he was jealous of his half brothers, he had sufferd the lost of his mother.... Hey Ancalagon that sound like the Phisicological profile # 4 Fëanor dont you think?
Ok My point is that Feanor was great but he was to furios in everything and He made decision based in his moment of heat.
And he was selfish of course.
I think that melkor made his part but he gave feanor just a little push, Do not you remember In UT that Galadriel did not like him at all , she felt a shadow in Feanor.

[Maedhros]

So one would simply say that one isn't responsible for their own actions. Feanor was corrupted only because he was ripe to be corrupted. A "greater" Elf of character, such as his father or brothers, may well have resisted the silent attack of Melkor and not heeded his lies and whisperings.
Well, Feanor was unique in that we will never know how it affected him to be his whole life with his mother.
Blaming it on Melkor is a cop out and makes Feanor less "great" because he was so easily manipulated by an evil Vala.
Obviously, wrong choice of words. Melkor infuriated Feanor in such a way that it inflamed his own inner fire. Feanor is not guiltless of his deeds. I have never said that, but he was the only who willing to do ANYTHING to avenge his father.
Feanor's defenders are only too quick to point out all of the undue influences that were exerted upon him. Poor wittle Feanor.
Well, he did have the influence of Melkor, who purpouse was to corrupt Feanor. I have stated it before. The Valar were guilty in letting that happen in front of their faces. They too have a responsability for the Eldar in their domain.
Do not you remember In UT that Galadriel did not like him at all , she felt a shadow in Feanor.
Perhaps that could be because her mother had died.

[Camille]

Perhaps that could be because her mother had died.
You mean Galadriel was able to see his pain ?
Ah it seams that we finally we will agree Maedhros !!!! what I am saying is of course no one can escape the responsability for what you do, but there are always reasons for that, I think you are right Miriel dead was a very important point.
Poor Feanor ... but I think he has a lot of responsability of his evil dees

[Legolam]

I was going to post something like Gothmog's post on this subject, but he put it far more succinctly than I could have.

Bucky - you can blame the tobacco and gun companies up to a certain point for creating the means for harm. But ultimately the buck (ha ha, like my pun? Didn't think so ... :rolleyes: ) stops with the individuals, as they are free spirits (elves more than most I would guess) and must take responsibility for their own actions.

[Maedhros]

Melkor or Sauron could easily then be called great, for their impact upon the world was 'great'. Alternatively, you could say they were all infamous. Surely greatness in these terms shows a complete disregard for those who must suffer the consequences of their 'great' actions.
There is a difference, Melkor staged a war against his FELLOW Valar. Sauron then fought elves and men in ME. He was fighting lesser beings than himself and that's why the Valar send the Istari. But Feanor dared go against a Valar, but not any Vala, the Mightiest of the All. There is your difference.
Oh,Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host in your Feanor bashing you forgot this quote:
Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

[Legolam]

So Maedhros is saying that the Feanor's greed, slaying of his kin, and various other nasty deeds is justified by the fact that he was brave enough to stand up to someone bigger than you. You can rarely justify violence, no matter who it is against. Just because he had no hope of winning against Melkor, doesn't make it a good action in the first place. He was little better than Sauron in this respect.

[Maedhros]

So Maedhros is saying that the Feanor's greed, slaying of his kin, and various other nasty deeds is justified by the fact that he was brave enough to stand up to someone bigger than you.
Ahhhh. No I'm not saying that. If you had eyes you would see what I'm posting.

Just because he had no hope of winning against Melkor, doesn't make it a good action in the first place.
First of all, how do we know that they don't have a chance against Melkor. Who is talking about "good" actions. Not me. Please read the thread.

[Ancalagon]

Maedhros, my Tall friend;

There is a difference, Melkor staged a war against his FELLOW Valar. Sauron then fought elves and men in ME. He was fighting lesser beings than himself and that's why the Valar send the Istari. But Feanor dared go against a Valar, but not any Vala, the Mightiest of the All.

Feanor spoke against those to whom he owed more than he could ever fathom. His pride had taken hold so much so that he would not give up the Silmarils to light Aman after the darkening. Yet Feanor it was who was responsible for the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, this is not greatness, but folly beyond reckoning.

Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

I certainly did not forget this, though the History thereafter tells a different story, for it was the desire of the Silmarils that drove Feanor on more than the death of his father.

His treatment of Fingolfin was shameful, even after Fingolfin offered treaties and friendship. There is nothing admirable or great about Feanor, the Valar had him sussed from the off;

since Fëanor first spoke openly against them, they judged that he was the mover of discontent, being eminent in self-will and arrogance iresspective of Melkors words, it was Feanor who held himself in such high esteem that he would dare challenge the Valar.

Finwe himself should have checked Feanors words and actions, yet he doted upon Feanor and ignored his responsiblities as both father and King.

. For said Finwë: 'While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.'

Were Feanor solely after his Fathers killer, should he mention in his oath the only thing that actually meant anything to him;

War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!'

The arrogance and lust for his own Silmarils and his own Kingdom is the epitomie of Feanors contempt for all save himself.

[Legolam]

OK, firstly, I have read the thread and tried to express my views on the question as stated by Grond:
This is a poll whether Feanor should be held accountable for his actions or whether ole Melkor (my ex-boss) should bear the blame. To here Ulari and Maedhros tell the story, poor old Feanor was the cream de la cream of Elfdom and was waylaid by the old bad guy Melkor. He was just a dumb patsy who should bear no responsibility for his actions... after all, it was really the Valar and Melkor who really screwed up.
I'm the first to admit that I don't know the Sil hugely well, but I still have an opinion on why Feanor should take responsibility for his actions. I'm not too good at expressing them, and I apologise if I misinterpreted what you were saying, but I stand by my comments.

[Ancalagon]

I'm the first to admit that I don't know the Sil hugely well, but I still have an opinion on why Feanor should take responsibility for his actions. I'm not too good at expressing them, and I apologise if I misinterpreted what you were saying, but I stand by my comments.

Legolam (with a tasty mint sauce), long may you continue to offer your opinion without fear of condemnation or rebuke. Though people may question your opinions not a soul will attempt to demean your contribution. Please carry on for your points are extremely valid.

[Maedhros]

Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host
Yet Feanor it was who was responsible for the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, this is not greatness, but folly beyond reckoning.
It seems that the definitions have gone to the tub. Hmmm.
greatness: adj.
1. Of outstanding significance or importance.
This deed which is evil and bad is nevertheless great by the given definition. There is a difference between great and good. I would say it was folly also.
His treatment of Fingolfin was shameful, even after Fingolfin offered treaties and friendship. There is nothing admirable or great about Feanor, the Valar had him sussed from the off
I agree with this.
iresspective of Melkors words, it was Feanor who held himself in such high esteem that he would dare challenge the Valar.
He dared to do the impossible. True greatness.
Finwe himself should have checked Feanors words and actions, yet he doted upon Feanor and ignored his responsiblities as both father and King.
Could it be because he loved his father above all else and Finwe knew that.
Were Feanor solely after his Fathers killer, should he mention in his oath the only thing that actually meant anything to him
My quote in my last post should clarify any doubts about who is the more important to Feanor.
The arrogance and lust for his own Silmarils and his own Kingdom is the epitomie of Feanors contempt for all save himself.
Funny, a certain quote comes to my mind.
For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath.
He never gave up. Even against seemengly impossible odds. That's what makes him great.
P.S. Also is the fact that we are all spending this time talking about him.;)

[Maedhros]

I'm not too good at expressing them, and I apologise if I misinterpreted what you were saying, but I stand by my comments.
You can stand by your comments, but do not put my NAME in front of them.

[Ancalagon]

Maedhros, Tallest of the Taller Elves who were frequently seen being Tall, it seems we are both degenerating into a tit-for-tat arguement regarding Feanors greatness. So before we re-commence with dismantling Feanor's greatness myth can we get one thing straight; Was Feanor responsible for his own actions? I say he was, which I have stated earlier. Clear up your position on this matter and we will return to Feanor's grea....cough....tness, and embark on a tale of why others were greater.

[Legolam]

Thank you Anc. I'm going to step out of this argument for a while to gain a little perspective and maybe go over some bits in my book tonight (it's 1am here) to figure out what's going on. But don't fear, Maedhros, I'll be back! :D

[Ancalagon]

It's 1am here also, I am in Belfast:)

[Maedhros]

Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host
Was Feanor responsible for his own actions? I say he was, which I have stated earlier.
Ah. Have you not read my first post. I have stated that Feanor is responsible for his own actions, but that Melkor and the Valar also had certain responsability in them.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host

Ah. Have you not read my first post. I have stated that Feanor is responsible for his own actions, but that Melkor and the Valar also had certain responsability in them.

Well, I still cannot find my copy of the Silmarillion sadly *sigh*. But it looks like all the quotes have come out in this wonderful debate. I have read the whole thread Maedhros and Ancalagon, and I will join in the argument on the side of Ancalagon. Sorry Maehdros. We all must agree that Feanor was great in his own fashion, he was the mightiest of all Elves. Sauron and Melkor were also great. But we can say that it was an evil greatness. Yes, Feanor never gave up, I agree with you on that point Maehdros, but the hate for Melkor and the Valar drove him to kill his brother and the slaying of the Teleri at Alqualonde. IMO and I believe in everyone else's THAT is definitely not Feanor is his prime. There were definitelty many components in the fate of Feanor, but it was Feanor's fault entirely. Feanor was short of temper and he was extremely egotistical, and whenever his ego was challenged, he either slayed someone or rebelled against whoever hurt his pride, and it was Feanor's pride (that would make another great thread) that was his ultimate downfall. It wasn't greatness that drove Feanor in the war against Melkor, it was his pride, and there Maehdros, you are wrong. It was greatness that made him rebel against the Valar, it was his pride. Here is the definition if pride from the Illustrated Oxford Dictionary Published in 1998 by Dorling Kindersly Limited and Oxford University Press:

pride: a feeling of elation or satisfaction at achievements or qualities or possessions etc. that do one credit.

IMO, that is the perfect definition of pride. There were three more there but they basically meant the same thing. Feanor felt both elated and satisfied when he made the Silmarils which were his possessions. His achievements were numerous. And it was his pride that drove him on Maehdros, not his greatness.

[Maedhros]

It wasn't greatness that drove Feanor in the war against Melkor, it was his pride, and there Maehdros, you are wrong. It was greatness that made him rebel against the Valar, it was his pride.
I've never said that it was greatness that drove him. It was his pride, love of his father and the theft of the Silmarils. There is no doubt in the Sil, that Feanor prized his father above all else. Please try and see what I'm posting before you make comments abouts my posts being right or wrong.
but the hate for Melkor and the Valar drove him to kill his brother and the slaying of the Teleri at Alqualonde.
His brothers were Fingolfin and Finarfin, he didn't kill them. The Teleri refused their help in aiding their friends moments of greater need. I would not say hate of the Valar, I would say mistrust.
but it was Feanor's fault entirely.
So are you saying that Feanor would have gone to ME and murdered the Teleri if Melkor had remained imprisioned in the Void. Ridiculous.

[Úlairi]

My apologies Maehdros, I misinterpreted what you had said in saying:

Originally posted by Maehdros
He never gave up. Even against seemengly impossible odds. That's what makes him great.

Originally posted by Maehdros
His brothers were Fingolfin and Finarfin, he didn't kill them.

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to say that at all.

Originally posted by Maehdros
I would not say hate of the Valar, I would say mistrust.

You can say it in whatever way you want Maehdros, I would definitely say hate IMO. But you are entitled to your own opinion so I will not debate that point with you just yet, as I am at a disadvantage as I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Silmarillion.

Originally posted by Maehdros
So are you saying that Feanor would have gone to ME and murdered the Teleri if Melkor had remained imprisioned in the Void. Ridiculous.

No, that is putting words into my mouth Maedhros. Yes Melkor prompted him I agree. But Feanor could have found some other way to cross instead of slaying his own kin. Never put words into my mouth that where never there Maedhros. Melkor stole the Silmarils, but it was Feanor's fault in the Alqualonde, not Melkor's. In no way can you shift the blame of what Feanor had done to the Teleri, in no way. Feanor made the Silmarils, Melkor stole them, Feanor killed the Teleri, Melkor did not. Next time Maedhros, read my posts correctly, for argument's sake.

[Maedhros]

Next time Maedhros, read my posts correctly, for argument's sake.
Touché.
Yes Melkor prompted him I agree.
Ok.
Melkor stole the Silmarils, but it was Feanor's fault in the Alqualonde, not Melkor's. In no way can you shift the blame of what Feanor had done to the Teleri, in no way.
Well, one can't really shift the blame.
The point of this thread is Feanor's Fate:
It's absolutely ridiculous to say that Melkor didn't play a part in Feanor's fate. If the Valar had either the wisdom or the insight to see what Melkor will do, a great evil might have been prevented.
Fact:
No Melkor, no Finwe slaying no No silmaril theft.
No going to ME. No exile.

Was Feanor responsible for his actions, yes, did Melkor had something to do with them, yes. Were the Valar in a way responsible for releasing Melkor and been blinded by his mischiefs upon the Noldor. Yes.

Chekmate.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Maedhros

Touché.

Ok.

Well, one can't really shift the blame.
The point of this thread is Feanor's Fate:
It's absolutely ridiculous to say that Melkor didn't play a part in Feanor's fate. If the Valar had either the wisdom or the insight to see what Melkor will do, a great evil might have been prevented.
Fact:
No Melkor, no Finwe slaying no No silmaril theft.
No going to ME. No exile.

Was Feanor responsible for his actions, yes, did Melkor had something to do with them, yes. Were the Valar in a way responsible for releasing Melkor and been blinded by his mischiefs upon the Noldor. Yes.

Chekmate.

Well Maedhros, it seems that my intelligence has been matched with intelligence which I only ever seem to have this problem with Grond, Mormegil, Greenwood and Bucky. It seems that I have a new foe. I will be back tomorrow as I have to go now sadly, arguing with you Maedhros is interesting, and I will be back. And hopefully I find my copy of the Sil, as I am at a disadvantage.

[Maedhros]

It seems that I have a new foe.
I'm hurt, i thought you were my friend. Ouch.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Maedhros

I'm hurt, i thought you were my friend. Ouch.

I meant intellectual foe. You have always been my friend Maehdros!

[Ancalagon]

No Melkor, no Finwe slaying no No silmaril theft.No going to ME. No exile

Irrespective of Melkors input, which btw, everyone agrees he shares in some of the responsiblity for the turmoil that ensued, but Feanor is still responsible for his own actions. Before you go patting yourself on the back, do you not think that even if Melkor was not around to stir things up a little, Feanor would have created trouble and strife anyway. Melkor wasn't responsible for him disliking Fingolfin, nor was he responsible for Feanor's arrogance and jealousy surrounding the Silmarils.

Feanor was a timebomb waiting to go off, either way, he would have exploded. Feanor was destined, nay doomed, from the start to cause dissent and rebellion. Yet, in the end, even though the Elves departed from Aman to go to Middle-Earth, there they were beset by constant war, in-fighting and ill-fortune, they still returned to Aman, to the Valar they had shirked and berated, hat in hand with bugger all to show for their trouble. As Tony the Tiger would say.......GGGGGRRRRRRRRRREATTTTTT.

[Maedhros]

Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host
Irrespective of Melkors input, which btw, everyone agrees he shares in some of the responsiblity for the turmoil that ensued, but Feanor is still responsible for his own actions.
The thread is called Feanor's fate, if you are saying that he has some responsability for what happened afterwards, then Feanor's fate in part depended on him.
Before you go patting yourself on the back
Too late.
do you not think that even if Melkor was not around to stir things up a little, Feanor would have created trouble and strife anyway.
Yes, i believe he would have left Valinor at some place and time, but without commiting the things that he did in reality.
Melkor wasn't responsible for him disliking Fingolfin
Yes, i know that. You can add Finarfin to that list.
nor was he responsible for Feanor's arrogance and jealousy surrounding the Silmarils.
His arrogance No, but remember that when the silmarils were made, Melkor was already freed and he targeted his lies specifically to Feanor.
Feanor was destined, nay doomed, from the start to cause dissent and rebellion.
I don't believe in predestination. I believe he was a revolutionary at the windows of heaven. That's why he was so great, it was because he had the desire to do new things and not linger and do nothing as the majority of the other elves.
there they were beset by constant war, in-fighting and ill-fortune, they still returned to Aman, to the Valar they had shirked and berated, hat in hand with bugger all to show for their trouble.
Hmmmm. They made great deeds and by their presence they shielded a part of ME from Melkor's evil. Hey they tried, they may not have succeded,but they tried their hats of. They could never know they couldn't succeed, if they even try it not. Fingolfin challenged and crippled Morgoth permanently, a great deed.

[Ancalagon]

Fingolfin challenged and crippled Morgoth permanently, a great deed.

Sorry, I thought you were arguing Feanor's greatness. By adding Fingolfin to the list you are shirking your own convictions. Fingolfin was a great Elf, as was Finrod, Your namesake Maedhros to name but a few. All greater than Feanor, for they fought the good fight, the one Feanor delivered them on a plate.

[Grond]

And the Grondster has certainly started a lively and interesting debate. I love you guys and girls.

Maedhros, if Feanor had such remorse and grief over his father's death, why was the Oath he and his sons swore not an Oath of Vengeance for his father as opposed to an "Ode to I want my Silmarils".

I always have a vision of Feanor sitting on his butt facing Gothmog, hitting both fists into the dirt and crying, "Wahhhh!!!! I want my Silmarils.... Wahhh!!!! I want my Silmarils. You can't have them... their mine... Wahhh!!!"

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Maedhros

I don't believe in predestination. I believe he was a revolutionary at the windows of heaven. That's why he was so great, it was because he had the desire to do new things and not linger and do nothing as the majority of the other elves.


Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. From the Silmarillion: of The Begining of Days.

While you may not believe in predestination, it would seem that JRR Tolkien did, at least as far as the Elves were concerned.

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Grond

I always have a vision of Feanor sitting on his butt facing Gothmog, hitting both fists into the dirt and crying, "Wahhhh!!!! I want my Silmarils.... Wahhh!!!! I want my Silmarils. You can't have them... their mine... Wahhh!!!"

I must say that I like this thought.
:D :cool: :D

[Camille]

Ok back to the thread... Fëanor's fate, so it seams that we agree:
Fëanor was responsable for his deeds, and yes Melkor had some part in that.
But why do you say that the Valar were responsable for what happend?
If the Valar had either the wisdom or the insight to see what Melkor will do, a great evil might have been prevented.
Can we be sure about this? it is said that Manwë forgave Melkor because he did not know evil, so How can you blame them (Valar) for doing something that they did not prevent? because they where not able to see what Melkor will do.

[Gothmog]

It comes down once more to being responsable for ones own actions. The Valar were responsable for releasing Melkor, some indeed foresaw that trouble would come of it.

So it matters no that they failed to see what was coming, they have to accept some (although only a small part) of the blame in what happened after.

[Maedhros]

Sorry, I thought you were arguing Feanor's greatness. By adding Fingolfin to the list you are shirking your own convictions.
No I'm not. Two different things althogether different. Feanor is the genius "sans pareil" among the elves.

All greater than Feanor, for they fought the good fight, the one Feanor delivered them on a plate.
If not for Feanor, they would all have been typical "Vanyar" elves.
Maedhros, if Feanor had such remorse and grief over his father's death, why was the Oath he and his sons swore not an Oath of Vengeance for his father as opposed to an "Ode to I want my Silmarils".
And what would that oath said Grond. Feanor clearly states:
Then Fëanor rose, and lifting up his hand before Manwë he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World; and by that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after. And he cursed also the summons of Manwë and the hour in which he came to Taniquetil, thinking in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed. Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
This got to hurt you Grond. Knowing all what Feanor did, and still he loved his father more than Fingolfin.
Can we be sure about this? it is said that Manwë forgave Melkor because he did not know evil, so How can you blame them (Valar) for doing something that they did not prevent? because they where not able to see what Melkor will do.
Can we be sure about this? it is said that Manwë forgave Melkor because he did not know evil, so How can you blame them (Valar) for doing something that they did not prevent? because they where not able to see what Melkor will do.
Then Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.
It clearly states that while Manwe was deceived, Ulmo didn't.
I always have a vision of Feanor sitting on his butt facing Gothmog, hitting both fists into the dirt and crying, "Wahhhh!!!! I want my Silmarils.... Wahhh!!!! I want my Silmarils. You can't have them... their mine... Wahhh!!!"
Funny Grond, but Feanor never gave up nor turn back on something.
. For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds
Hmmm. This didn't sound a coward to me.
But this does:
There Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines, and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face.
Grond, it seems you have your characters confused. Melkor is the coward not Feanaro.

[Maedhros]

As Tony the Tiger would say.......GGGGGRRRRRRRRRREATTTTTT.
Ancalagon, i believe that Tony the Tiger would say They are GGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTT TT.

In the end, the only thing that mattered, is that one stood against many.

[Grond]

I think Anc has already posted this... but here it is again. From the Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor,
Then Feanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straight-way to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Iluvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwe they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great of small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

Thus spoke Maedhros and Maglor and Celegorm, Curufin nad Caranthis, Amrod and Amras, princes of the Noldor; and many quailed to hear the dread words. For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end...

Funny that they didn't mention retribution for their father's death in their oath. The only things mentioned are the Silmarils... Hmmmmm???If not for Feanor, they would all have been typical "Vanyar" elves.
And what is wrong with Vanyar Elves? They were the only Elves represented in the final battle with Melkor.And what would that oath said Grond. Feanor clearly states:
At the top of this post is what the author says about the oath and the name of Finwe is not mentioned in the Oath.This got to hurt you Grond. Knowing all what Feanor did, and still he loved his father more than Fingolfin. You've got it wrong again. Finwe definately loved Feanor more than either Fingolfin or Finarfin, but your quote only makes it clear that no one loved their father more than Feanor, not that he loved his father the most. And, why should that bother me... you forget that Fingolfin was a "good" guy and the Feanor was a "corrupted" guy.It clearly states that while Manwe was deceived, Ulmo didn't.Okay, so let's put Manwe on double secret probation for freeing Melkor. And, darn it, let's not hold Feanor responsible for any of his actions. Let's just blame Manwe... no wait, let's blame Melkor... no wait, it's Eru's fault for making Melkor in the first place.

I am truly appalled that many posters in this thread will go to any means to justify Feanor's actions and to divert blame elsewhere. We are led to believe that it is all Melkor's fault. Or if not his, then Manwe's for letting him go. Or if not his then Fingolfin for starting discord in the family by trying to usurp Feanor's place. Or if not his, then the Teleri... because if they had only given Feanor their boats, then he wouldn't have had to murder them.

Justifying Feanor's actions can go on and on unless you face the fact that of all the Eldar in the Silmarillion, he is the most imperfect. He is greatest in power and skill and yet at the same time is the least in love and compassion. All in all, Feanor was a thoroughly despicable Elf. And... I've lived in Angband and I know what despicable is. :)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros
...In the end, the only thing that mattered, is that one stood against many. Your right as far as Feanor is concerned. As far as Fingolfin was concerned all that mattered was that one stood against a Vala!:p

[Maedhros]

And what is wrong with Vanyar Elves? They were the only Elves represented in the final battle with Melkor.
What about the Noldorian elves that came with Finarfin.
I am truly appalled that many posters in this thread will go to any means to justify Feanor's actions and to divert blame elsewhere.
I didn't say that Feanor was not responsible for his own actions, all I'm saying is that the Valar (Manwe) failed in his duty to protect the Noldor by releasing a great evil power in Valinor and therefore the Noldor and Feanor were in some ways corrupted. Manwe is somewhat responsible for what happened to Feanor and so is Morgoth.
He is greatest in power and skill and yet at the same time is the least in love and compassion.
Yes, i agree. Feanor = Greatness.
As far as Fingolfin was concerned all that mattered was that one stood against a Vala!
If Fingolfin stood against a Vala and crippled him, then it's not inconceivable that the united Noldor could beat him.

[Camille]

Manwe is somewhat responsible for what happened to Feanor and so is Morgoth.

As I have said before, Manwe did not foresaw what is going to happned, he choose to release Melkor because he thought that his evil was healed, He was a kind King who was able to forgive the past.
And as you have posted before, Ulmo was not deceived but unfortunatly Manwe was the chief, So can you say that is Ulmo's fault because he did not make his best effort for Melkor not be realese.
I do not think so

[Maedhros]

While you may not believe in predestination, it would seem that JRR Tolkien did, at least as far as the Elves were concerned.
Well, if predestination is in place in the Silmarillion concerning the Elves, then Feanor was "destined" to do anything that he did, regardless of everything, making him not responsible for his actions. I personally don't believe in that and i think that every character in the sil has free will.

If you argue in favour of predestination, then Feanor is guiltless of everything. Chekmate # 2.
Don't go in there, then i would win very easily.;)

[Gothmog]

Maedhros, Free Will is an illusion. There is only Limited Choice. This is a fact in real life and in books. The point that I was making is that Your not beliveing in Predestination is irrelevent. You must look in the book to find out what is the author's view in respect of the story. If there is predestination in the story the next question is 'How much freedom of Choice is given to the characters within the limitations of the destiny of the world. Tolkien has put in predestination, but it is very un-clear just how tight the restrictions are with respect of the choices of the individual. This is a different thread that has not yet been brought to a conclusion. So how do you know that you will win this one easily?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Maedhros, Free Will is an illusion. There is only Limited Choice. This is a fact in real life and in books. The point that I was making is that Your not beliveing in Predestination is irrelevent. You must look in the book to find out what is the author's view in respect of the story. If there is predestination in the story the next question is 'How much freedom of Choice is given to the characters within the limitations of the destiny of the world. Tolkien has put in predestination, but it is very un-clear just how tight the restrictions are with respect of the choices of the individual. This is a different thread that has not yet been brought to a conclusion. So how do you know that you will win this one easily? He'll win because he is a legend in his own mind. :)Originally posted by Maedhros
Yes, I agree. Feanor = Greatness. Yes, I agree. Feanor = Leastness. ;)

[Maedhros]

So how do you know that you will win this one easily?
By your own arguments of course. If free will is an ilusion, then the characters have to follow certain steps that were "preordained" to them, making them puppets of destiny (Music of the Ainur) and therefore because they have no Free will they are not responsible for their actions, because they had no other choice.
He'll win because he is a legend in his own mind.
I'll win, because it is enought that it's the right thing to do.;)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros
...I'll win, because it is enought that it's the right thing to do.;) Maedhros, Maedhros, Maedhros, how can you possibly believe that Feanor's actions were warranted because it was "the right thing to do."

So any evils that Feanor caused were justified because his motives were "right" even if his actions were not???? I just don't buy that. Your post tends to parallel the old axiom "the end justifies the means". Unfortunately for Feanor, his end was wrought with failure. He failed to gain vengeance on Melkor. He failed to recover the Silmarils. He failed to be a foresighted leader to his people. But wait, I already know your response... "he was great because he had the guts to try!!". Right??

[Maedhros]

Maedhros, Maedhros, Maedhros, how can you possibly believe that Feanor's actions were warranted because it was "the right thing to do."
I didn't say that. I meant that i will win the debate because it's the right thing to do. Notice the "I'll win" part of my quote.
But wait, I already know your response... "he was great because he had the guts to try!!". Right??
And he was the only one in Valinor that made new things of their own. He dared to be different, he dared to do what he thought should do and he never backed down on anything or from anyone. He was a genius "sans pareil".

[Úlairi]

Feanor was a great Elf, he was pride-driven and egotistical. He was responsible for his actions and I will agree with Maehdros's argument. The Valar had a part to play in Feanor's Fate. Without them, the White Trees wouldn't have been destroyed, Melkor wouldn't have spun his lies, the Valar wouldn't banish him... the list goes on. I can see where Maedhros is coming from and frankly, I agree with him. I will not shift the blame entirely on to the Valar, as Feanor was also responsible for his own fate, that fact cannot be denied, but the Valar had their part to play. Feanor was not entirely to blame. Sorry guys for joining in so late, I only found my copy of the Sil the other day. It was under the computer desk! I have re-read the entire section on Feanor and the Elves and I agree with Maedhros in saying that it was not just Feanor's fault. There were many components such as the death of his father for instance. IMO, I believe that we can blame Feanor's Fate on fate or predestiny itself, as Maehdros said. Grond, you should edit the poll and add 'Fate' as a choice, because I believe that fate could be blamed in this trgic tale.

[Ancalagon]

Ulairi stated; I have read the whole thread Maedhros and Ancalagon, and I will join in the argument on the side of Ancalagon

Ulairi stated; Feanor was a great Elf, he was pride-driven and egotistical. He was responsible for his actions and I will agree with Maehdros's argument.

Ulairi also stated; I have re-read the entire section on Feanor and the Elves and I agree with Maedhros in saying that it was not just Feanor's fault


If you were walking along a fence just now, I can confidently say that you have slipped, with legs dangling on each side and an extremely sore set of nads:)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
If you were walking along a fence just now, I can confidently say that you have slipped, with legs dangling on each side and an extremely sore set of nads:) ROFL!!!!

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Ulairi stated;

Ulairi stated;

Ulairi also stated;


If you were walking along a fence just now, I can confidently say that you have slipped, with legs dangling on each side and an extremely sore set of nads:)

Well I guess you guys think that I have contradicted myself, well, sorry, but I haven't. I changed my mind as Grond has in my thread it happens. Sorry guys, the joke's over. Anc, check out the skill of the skin-changers thread, your presence is required.