Who is the greatest elf ever?

[Maeglin]

I agree I don't think he would have been happy no matter who she came home with, I think that he was just overprotective of his daughter and he was a jerk that hated just about everything outside of his kingdom.:mad:

[Melian Le Fay]

I agree he was stubborn and acted as a moron towards Beren, but he did repent on that, didn't he? When Beren came without his hand, and later when he wed them... And THAT's what I liked in the book - a stubborn egocentric who eventually sees through...
And as for his alleged hate for everyone outside his kingdom... I doubt he hated anyone for real, he just wanted to make sure no one comes and usurpes his throne and lands... I guess any real king does that. The princes of Noldoli just appeared one day, and as you can remember, they came not only to seek the jewels, but also to make kingdoms there. And Elu was aware of that, he knew they could usurp him, so he did everything he could to prevent that. And he did let in the children of Finarfin in... they were related, but still, the were strangers in his land...

[gate7ole]

My vote goes to Finwe, the father of this great race, the Noldor, who had their moments of pride (Feanor), their moments of greatness (Finrod), their moments of treason (Maeglin - not pure blooded though).

[Grond]

Originally posted by gate7ole
My vote goes to Finwe, the father of this great race, the Noldor, who had their moments of pride (Feanor), their moments of greatness (Finrod), their moments of treason (Maeglin - not pure blooded though). I agree and must change my vote. Finwe also crunched very good when struck by Melkor's Hammer. Hey!!! That would be me. :);)

[Lhunithiliel]

From Millena:
Conf is right - the greatest isn't the same as favourite... The first demands mind, ant the second - heart.

To "have a heart" (not in the phusical understanding!) means to feel >>> to feel means to lose real view over reality >>> THIS - meaning you are destined to lose ! ;)

Look what hapened to Feanor - the cool, wise Feanor let his feelings ruled over his mind ONCE and it turned to be his FATAL mistake!
---------------
And have I missed it or you have decided to change/alterate the main topic of this thread? Why are we speaking about "favourite" elf and Vala? Isn't it about the GREATEST Elf ever? :confused:
Though, of course, I do not, by all means, object! :p
---------------
Grond, I did NOT doubt it that YOU would vote for Finwe - after all he was the Elf who stood against your master and YOU! :D

[Nóm]

That is true, and you can note that my favorite elf, Finrod, seemed to be of strong mind. I still have not yet been able to choose which Elf I would name the greatest though. This is because I am not sure how I should define greatness. Favorite on the other hand is easy to define: it's just the one that you like the most: for me that is Finrod and that is based more of my feelings than analysis of his charactor's actions and motivations. I admit that I base my favorite on the way that I feel about Finrod, and not on his 'greatness'. In fact I may never be able to decide which elf is the greatest, for me the question is one that doesn't need to be answered.

[Kalmanluin]

I believe the greatest ever was Fingolfin. Fingolfin was the only elf to ever face Morgoth in mortal combat. Also remember that Morgoth was afraid of Fingolfin when Fingolfin blew his horn and challenged him.

[Mithlond]

Fingolfin was great. But Tolkien says that Feanor was the greatest elf.
Feanor was the most intelligent, the most handsome, the strongest, most powerful..etc etc.
Feanor probably came very close to having the power of a Maia within him.

[Maedhros]

Althought it pains me to say it, it was Lúthien who was the greatest of the Eldar.
From the Peoples of Me: THE SHIBBOLETH OF FËANOR
Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.
In a footnote it say this.

[Ceorl]

Yes I think Luthien was definitely the most powerful being with Eldar blood however if you had to choose someone who wasn't a cross-breed then it would have to be Feanor.

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel


To "have a heart" (not in the phusical understanding!) means to feel >>> to feel means to lose real view over reality >>> THIS - meaning you are destined to lose ! ;)

Look what hapened to Feanor - the cool, wise Feanor let his feelings ruled over his mind ONCE and it turned to be his FATAL mistake!
---------------
And have I missed it or you have decided to change/alterate the main topic of this thread? Why are we speaking about "favourite" elf and Vala? Isn't it about the GREATEST Elf ever? :confused:
Though, of course, I do not, by all means, object! :p
---------------
Grond, I did NOT doubt it that YOU would vote for Finwe - after all he was the Elf who stood against your master and YOU! :D

I think you may have misunderstood me. When I wrote greatest demands mind, and the favourite heart, I ment that choosing the greatest Elf means you have to consider all his/hers actions, thoughts, etc, simply, you need to think over it. But choosing your most favourite Elf would mean you'd have to choose the one you simply like the most! And that's what I meant - choosing your likes or dislikes demands "heart" - a.k.a. emotions! Did I make myself a bit more clear now?:)

But I definitely agree with you that when emotions overwhelm you, you make mistakes! And being so emotional was Feanor's greatest good and his greatest evil... He couldn't have made the Silmarils if he wasn't so passionate, and many thing he could have prevented if he hasn't been passionate...Ironic, don't you think?

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by Confusticated
I admit that I base my favorite on the way that I feel about Finrod, and not on his 'greatness'.

It somehow turns out that the most intriguing, most interesting characters aren't always the "greatest" - prefect, good, honourable... At least that's for me! The most interesting ones are those who have "something", or aren't all goody-goodies... Like Finrod or Thingol... Though, Fingolfin was pretty much "perfect", but he turned out to be quite stupid going to fight on his own agains a Vala...that stupid little... why I oughta...

[Ithrynluin]

Everyone who wanted to vote for Luthien,but couldn't(cause she's not on the poll) can do it in the "Battle between Fëanor and Luthy" poll - here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6244) :)

Of course this is also an invitation for those who like Fëanor the best and would not want to see Luthien win under any circumstances.;)

[HLGStrider]

I personally think Thingol had a right to be a little worried about men entering his kingdom, because there was a lot of evil out there and locking everything down and not letting anyone in probably seemed a safe thing to do. Plus I agree that he was just looking out for Luthien at first... his biggest idocy was making the Silmaril the object of the quest and so "drawing himself into their doom"... They just caused more trouble.

[Melian Le Fay]

I think Thingol never fully understood the trouble the Silmarils caried... He never let any of the Noldor (save those of his kin) into his realms, and probably never heard the entire story of the Doom of Mandos...
That plus his ego resulted in him being pulled into this doom...
He should have listened to his wife more! ;) :p

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Millena
I think Thingol never fully understood the trouble the Silmarils caried... He never let any of the Noldor (save those of his kin) into his realms, and probably never heard the entire story of the Doom of Mandos...
That plus his ego resulted in him being pulled into this doom...
He should have listened to his wife more! ;) :p

Correct.Thingol never understoods the trouble with the Silmarils because he didn't want to know more about them,except the tragedy with the Teleri.
Not only his ego pulled him into the doom,but also his wife-Melian.As a maia she had much more power than all elves and she protected Doriath in the best way she could.But the problem was that Thingol got too proud of himself,because of his wife.That really pulled him into the doom because he wasn't so powerful without Melian.;) :p :cool:

[Muffinly]

I voted for Fingolfin. If only out of his bravery at challengeng Melkor at hand to hand combat and sacrificing himself for his kindred, he is the greatest elf in my mind.

[Gil-Galad]

Muffinly,Feanor too challenged Morgoth and he challenged him earlier than Fingolfin,about 400years earlier,but didn't have the chance to fight with him.Feanor challenged Morgoth in the ages in which Morgoth has much more strenght than the ages when Fingolfin challenged him.So Feanor is braver than Fingolfin,I think.

[Melian Le Fay]

Well, if Morgoth really was stronger at the time Feanor challenged him, why didn't he answer the challenge?
I don't think he was more powerfull... But that he may have feared at least a little bit Feanor, I agree on that!
but he also feared men...even those who served him... And that's cool in the book!

Was Thingol proud? definitely! but name me ONE high Elf who wasn't proud !!! Turgon - he was no less proud than Elu, his pride, like Elu's costed him his life and lives of his people... Like I said, Elu wasn't perfect, but somehow I have a "feeling" he came to his senses... Like with Beren ( I ment he came to his senses in Mandos)... I just feel like that about him...
but as for Feanor, he too was damn proud, and brought many wrongs to ME, but I think he needed much, much more time than Elu in Mandos to come to his senses...

[Eöl]

I'm so confused! Why is Feanor even in the poll? The only good thing he ever did was create the Silmarils, and then he withheld them the Valar when they tried to heal the Silver and Gold Trees! For the next 500 years his oath brought horrible tragedy on Men and Elves alike, and thats aside from his sons and himself slaying their own kind! Nothing he did was good, much less great. Challenging Morgoth was more of an act of rage over his precious Silmarils than bravery. (I'm not saying he was weak hearted, he was just after the Silmarils not bravery.)

[Melian Le Fay]

My point exactly - all he ever did was for the sake of his own creations, nothing he did was for the sake of other people.... he chalenged morgoth because his own ego was challenged...
But, on the other hand, if hasn't led the Noldoli to ME, than many thing would never had happened... many of great characters woudn't be born... but the most important is that peoples of ME would be all inslaved my Morgoth - the coming of Noldoli slowed that "proces" down, and gave Earendil chance to seek help in the West...
But all those things weren't intentional! None of that Feanor ment!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Millena
My point exactly - all he ever did was for the sake of his own creations, nothing he did was for the sake of other people....
I will and I can NOT agree with such a statement , nor with the general view that I have witnessed lately, which diminish Feanor's importance for the development of the Noldor.
That is why I picked up a few extracts from the Silmarillion for EVERYBODY to remember who Feanor really was and what great deeds he had done and what great achievements he had had.
Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame.
He was tall, and fair of face, and masterful, his eyes piercingly bright and his hair raven-dark; in the pursuit of all his purposes eager and steadfast. Few ever changed his courses by counsel, none by force. He became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand. In his youth, bettering the work of Rumil, he devised those letters which bear his name, and which the Eldar used ever after; and he it was who, first of the Noldor, discovered how gems greater and brighter than those of the earth might be made with skill.
Seldom were the hands and mind of Feanor at rest.
For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.
As for his battle against Morgoth:
………. for none of the Eldalie ever hated Melkor more than Feanor son of Finwe, who first named him Morgoth; and snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him.
Then turning to the herald he cried: 'Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!'
Such was Feanor! And I think it is deadly WRONG to deny everything he did, for whatever it was, it was for his people and for finding the freedom of the great spirit that his race was endowed with, to release it and make it work and make it create ...just like he did.
And Tolkien himself is strongly felt to have utmost respected this character! Otherwise, he would have never written:
....Then he(Feanor) died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe .

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Celebrien
I'm so confused! Why is Feanor even in the poll? The only good thing he ever did was create the Silmarils, and then he withheld them the Valar when they tried to heal the Silver and Gold Trees! For the next 500 years his oath brought horrible tragedy on Men and Elves alike, and thats aside from his sons and himself slaying their own kind! Nothing he did was good, much less great. Challenging Morgoth was more of an act of rage over his precious Silmarils than bravery. (I'm not saying he was weak hearted, he was just after the Silmarils not bravery.)
Tz.Not only the Silmarils.He is the elf who oposed the Valar,he is the elf who opposed the whole world even Eru.And thousnads followed him.Do you think that he challenged Morgoth only because of the Silmarils?Don't you forget the death of his father Finwe?:cool:

[Melian Le Fay]

Nah, pay no attention to me, I've read the Sil only once so far... I guess the thing that cast some shadow on Feanor was his dreadful oath... but, when I come to think about it, his sons did more wrong because of that oath than Feanor...hmmm.... I have to read the Sil again!!!
p.s. hey guys, teach me something in Bulgarian!!!:D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Millena
Nah, pay no attention to me, I've read the Sil only once so far... I guess the thing that cast some shadow on Feanor was his dreadful oath... but, when I come to think about it, his sons did more wrong because of that oath than Feanor...hmmm.... I have to read the Sil again!!!
p.s. hey guys, teach me something in Bulgarian!!!:D
Hm.Many other things make Feanor bad for most people,but you're right,his sons did much wrong things than him.The only one I like is Maedhros.
p.s.I'll teach you some bulgarian ,wait a pm!I'm your new bulgarian teacher!
:p :cool: ;)

[Melian Le Fay]

Oh, that's just great!!!:D
And I also liked Maedros the most!!! He was best of all of Feanor's sons, but also very tormented... Too bad he ended the way he did... but that's what makes him one of my favourite Elves... Are you familiar with a RPG, which topic is about Maedros coming back to ME to try to find Dior's sons...? I bet it's a pretty good one...

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Millena
Oh, that's just great!!!:D
And I also liked Maedros the most!!! He was best of all of Feanor's sons, but also very tormented... Too bad he ended the way he did... but that's what makes him one of my favourite Elves... Are you familiar with a RPG, which topic is about Maedros coming back to ME to try to find Dior's sons...? I bet it's a pretty good one...
Yeah it's not bad.As a matter of fact I think that if it weren't Feanor oath and Mandos's curse Maedhros would be one of the greatest elven kings.
Hey Maedhros,do you read this!:D :D

[Melian Le Fay]

Yes, a great Elven King...
But the part of him I liked the most was his torment and his ill fate... I don't mean to sound sick (:p ), I just tried to say that his character suffered a lot, and that gave him a special "colour", it made him a "rich" character... too bad he ended the way he did... but every legend, every epic have to have a tragic element, I guess....
But he will redempt in Mandos, I know that!!!:p :D

[TheDarkElf]

I'm going to use two meanings of the word greatest here:

Firstly, there is no argueing that the greatest elf who ever lived was Feanor. This was in both body and mind. His Mother actually had no strength left, so much 'power' went into his creation. He did the greatest feat of the time in making the Silmarils. This means that he is the elf who has affected History the most, and he could be considered great in this way.

Fingolfin however, was great in deeds that he did. He challaged Morgoth alone. This was not a maia, but the greatest of the Valar and Morgoth could only kill him because he eventually got tired.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by TheDarkElf
Firstly, there is no argueing that the greatest elf who ever lived was Feanor.

Sure there is. Especially when JRRT said that Luthien Tinuiviel was the greatest of all the Eldar including Feanor.

[lindil]

I will agree that Feanor is the 'greatest' in the sense of 'most inborn power/potential'.

But I skipped over Luthien because of her 1/2 maia origin.

Surely her numerous uses of magic go well beyond what we see of any other Elf.

I voted for Finrod as 'greatest' as I thought his willingness to abandon a kingdom to keep his word to Beor's kin and his and his long dialouge w/ Andreth in Morgoth's ring, show him to have the 'greatest' i.e. most noble heart.

He had the best attributes of the Vanyar and the Noldor imo.

also as regards Fingolfin was his self-sacrifice not out of despair?
Not to put him down, his duel w/ Morgoth is an incredible moment in the Silm. but Finrod's sacrifice was conscious and according to his given word.

[lindil]

"but name me ONE high Elf who wasn't proud !!! "

Finarfin

arguably Finrod and Galadriel [ though they did go on the march, unlike Turgon, the Sons of Feanor, and all of the rest they learned form their lessons.

Also in the latter category would have to go Glorfindel. see esp HoME 12 late writings.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I will and I can NOT agree with such a statement , nor with the general view that I have witnessed lately, which diminish Feanor's importance for the development of the Noldor.

Such was Feanor! And I think it is deadly WRONG to deny everything he did, for whatever it was, it was for his people and for finding the freedom of the great spirit that his race was endowed with, to release it and make it work and make it create ...just like he did.
I cannot and will not cast a vote for Feanor who was murderer of his friends and abandoner of his kin. Those two acts alone (though there are many others) rip him from the realm of greatness and place him as a doormat to the one he hated most. Whether anyone wants to believe it, whether anyone wants to admit it... Feanor became a "Tool of Melkor" in the end. What makes it even more disgraceful is the fact that his passion instilled the desire to leave Valinor into many who would, otherwise, not have desired to go.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Grond
... Feanor became a "Tool of Melkor" in the end. What makes it even more disgraceful is the fact that his passion instilled the desire to leave Valinor into many who would, otherwise, not have desired to go.
You will not excuse feanor for his actions yet you say that he was a tool of Melkor.

Would you then apply the same reasoning to other Noldor who have been used as tools?
You Blame Feanor for talking the Noldor into following him from Aman, in your statement in seems clear that you think this was his fault that they followed him.
So why then is it not Melkor's fault that Feanor played into his game?
Vala decieved Elf.
It seems that you are saying that Feanor is bad for doing something that his followers did but are not bad for doing.
"What makes it even more disgraceful is the fact that his passion instilled the desire to leave Valinor into many who would, otherwise, not have desired to go. "
to that I say:
...the fact that his (Melkor's) deception instilled the desire to leave Valinor into Feanor who would,otherwise, not have desired to go.

Sure...there is always a chance that Feanor may have decided to go to Middle-earth for other reasons eventually, but the same could be said for other of the Noldor..Galadriel perhaps.

I do not claim that Feanor was the greatest but I disagree with your reasons here.
I also disagree with your choice of Fingolfin as the greatest..:D...But I'll avoid getting into that since I know you've heard it all readly..:D

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Grond
I cannot and will not cast a vote for Feanor who was murderer of his friends and abandoner of his kin. Those two acts alone (though there are many others) rip him from the realm of greatness and place him as a doormat to the one he hated most. Whether anyone wants to believe it, whether anyone wants to admit it... Feanor became a "Tool of Melkor" in the end. What makes it even more disgraceful is the fact that his passion instilled the desire to leave Valinor into many who would, otherwise, not have desired to go.
Oh! Common Master Grond! Noone can deny and noone should forget the good things he did!
Yes, he had a disgraceful end, I admit. But only strong ambitions lead him this end. Ant these ambitions were not entirely personal or/and egoistic!
So, tell me, what is better - to live a "proper" life in bliss and not care for the world, or have ambitions and goals and fight for them?
I will and I can NOT ;) accept a fact that "black" is only "black" and "white" - "white". Especially in the case of Feanor's destiny.

If he was so "bad", why so many of his people listened to him and followed him? Didn't they realize the danger of their quest? I guess they did understand it perfectly well!
If his deeds were so awful why Fingolfin still continued to ME? Why didn't he return back to the Valar and bend his head in repentance?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
If his deeds were so awful why Fingolfin still continued to ME? Why didn't he return back to the Valar and bend his head in repentance?

It certainly wasn't for love of his brother or because he thought it was a wise choice.
Tell me,Lhunithiliel,if your own half-brother betrayed you and abandoned you to die in the cruel Helcaraxë,what would you have done? Would your heart not burn with the desire to confront him and revenge the deaths of many who have perished there (who were Fëanor's kin also!)? Think about that.

[Maedhros]

I cannot and will not cast a vote for Feanor who was murderer of his friends and abandoner of his kin.
Murderer of his friends, and whose friends are those?
From the Shibboleth of Fëanor:
He was not gentle. He was proud and hot-tempered, and opposition to his will he met not with the quiet steadfastness of his mother but with fierce resentment. He was restless in mind and body, though like Míriel he could become wholly absorbed in works of the finest skill of hand
What makes it even more disgraceful is the fact that his passion instilled the desire to leave Valinor into many who would, otherwise, not have desired to go.
I would say that Fëanor didn't force anyone to go to ME, they had that desire in them.
From HOME 5: Quenta Silmarillion
And Fingolfin made a great feast, and it was held in the South far from the threat of Morgoth, in the Land of Willows beside the waters of Sirion. The joy of that feast was long remembered in later days of sorrow; and it was called Mereth Aderthad, the Feast of Reuniting, and it was held in spring. Thither came all of the three houses of the Gnomes that could be spared from the northern guard; and great number of the Dark-elves, both the wanderers of the woods, and the folk of the havens from the land of the Falas; and many also came of the Green-elves from Ossiriand, the Land of Seven Rivers, afar off under the walls of the Blue Mountains. And from Doriath there came ambassadors, though Thingol came not himself, and he would not open his kingdom, nor remove its girdle of enchantment; for wise with the wisdom of Melian he trusted not that the restraint of Morgoth would last for ever. But the hearts of the Gnomes were high and full of hope, and it seemed to many of them that the words of Fëanor had been justified, bidding them seek freedom and fair kingdoms in Middle-earth.
Many of them thought that Fëanor was right after they were in ME too.
It certainly wasn't for love of his brother or because he thought it was a wise choice.
I would say that it was.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
Then Fëanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart I will be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us!'
Is that is not love, then I don't know what it is.
if your own half-brother betrayed you and abandoned you to die in the cruel Helcaraxë,what would you have done? Would your heart not burn with the desire to confront him and revenge the deaths of many who have perished there (who were Fëanor's kin also!)? Think about that.
From HOME 5: Quenta Silmarillion
They saw then they were betrayed, and left to perish in Eruman (Araman) or return; and they wandered long in misery. But their valour and endurance grew with hardship, for they were a mighty folk, but new come from the Blessed Realm, and not yet weary with the weariness of the earth, and the fire of their minds and hearts was young.
The Noldor host was in the "Wastes of Araman", they could have gone south to Alqualondë and then to Valinor, Fëanor didn't left them in the Helcaraxë which is further north.
They didn't return to Valinor because they had pride too and not all of them were innocent from the Slaying at Alqualondë.

[Grond]

Greatness is measured by one's actions. One can do hundreds of great deeds in one's lifetime and yet it only takes one negative action to completely tarnish one's existence. I am truly amazed at the number of people who are willing to overlook Feanor's wanton slaughter of his friends (And there is no question that the Teleri were Feanor's friends) and the abandonment of his own kin. After all that, he burns the ships of the Teleri, knowing how precious the ships are to them. It would be the equivalent of the Teleri destroying the Silmarils for the sole reason of spiting Feanor.

No one is diminishing the many great things that Feanor did over his lifetime. No one is saying he was not the greatest artisan that ever lived. No one is saying he didn't have the most powerful spirit of the Eldar. What I am saying is that he wasn't the greatest elf because of his actions against his fellow Eldar. That cannot be forgiven or swept under the carpet and will forever tarnish his name and any claim to greatness he may have had.

P. S. After reconsideration I think Fingolfin is also a bad choice. The only of the sons of Finwe to make the correct choice in this matter was Finarfin and my vote now goes to him.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Grond
. After all that, he burns the ships of the Teleri, knowing how precious the ships are to them. It would be the equivalent of the Teleri destroying the Silmarils for the sole reason of spiting Feanor.


Isn't it too strong to compare between the silmarils and the Teleri's ships?I agree that's one of Feanor's greatest mistakes,but the ships are not so precious as the silmarils are.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Maedhros

I would say that it was.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas

"Then Fëanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart I will be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us!'"

Is that is not love, then I don't know what it is.

Maedhros you obviously misunderstood what I have said.
The question by Lhunithiliel was: "If his deeds were so awful why Fingolfin still continued to ME? Why didn't he return back to the Valar and bend his head in repentance? "
To which I replied: "It certainly wasn't for love of his brother or because he thought it was a wise choice."
The quote that you provided has no relevance whatsoever.Fingolfin said that BEFORE they started the journey,in hope that he and his brother(s) would WORK TOGETHER.But guess what - to Fëanor those words didn't really mean anything.So what do you think,how much of that love did Fingolfin still feel towards Fëanor when he found out that Fëanor betrayed him? NONE I would say.He felt anger and the need for revenge.THAT was the main reason why they went on.

[Maedhros]

So what do you think,how much of that love did Fingolfin still feel towards Fëanor when he found out that Fëanor betrayed him? NONE I would say.He felt anger and the need for revenge.THAT was the main reason why they went on.
And they had their pride too.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Isn't it too strong to compare between the silmarils and the Teleri's ships?I agree that's one of Feanor's greatest mistakes,but the ships are not so precious as the silmarils are.

That may seem to be so,but....To different people,things have different values.A person who creates a work (the Silmarils,the swan-ships of the Teleri), pours much of his/her love,knowledge,soul...into that work.No doubt the Silmarils were worthier to Fëanor than the ships of the Teleri,for he laboured much to create them. BUT it goes both ways - I daresay that the Teleri loved their ships much more than the Silmarils,for they themselves made the ships and they are a sign of their love for the sea and reverence for Ulmo.
Each of these works is equally worthy,just in different ways.

Originally posted by Maedhros
And they had their pride too.

Pride? Who doesn't have that? But you're avoiding THE POINT. The main reason that the host of Fingolfin so stubbornly persisted in going to ME, was to confront Fëanor for what he had done.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
That may seem to be so,but....To different people,things have different values.A person who creates a work (the Silmarils,the swan-ships of the Teleri), pours much of his/her love,knowledge,soul...into that work.No doubt the Silmarils were worthier to Fëanor than the ships of the Teleri,for he laboured much to create them. BUT it goes both ways - I daresay that the Teleri loved their ships much more than the Silmarils,for they themselves made the ships and they are a sign of their love for the sea and reverence for Ulmo.
Each of these works is equally worthy,just in different ways.
But the lights of Telperion and Laurelin are in the silmarils.After Ungoliath destroy them the Valar ask Feanor for the Silmarils,not the Teleri for their ships.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
But the lights of Telperion and Laurelin are in the silmarils.After Ungoliath destroy them the Valar ask Feanor for the Silmarils,not the Teleri for their ships.

Of course,but I was talking about the value of each thing,each work of hand.The ships and the Sils are equally dear to those who made them (meaning the Sils were dear to Fëanor and the ships to the Teleri).

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Of course,but I was talking about the value of each thing,each work of hand.The ships and the Sils are equally dear to those who made them (meaning the Sils were dear to Fëanor and the ships to the Teleri).
But we should compare them according to the others opinion(Valar,Elves,Morgoth),not according to those who have made them.Of course everubody would like most the thing he has made.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
But we should compare them according to the others opinion(Valar,Elves,Morgoth),not according to those who have made them.Of course everubody would like most the thing he has made.

But just because Fëanor considered the Silmarils to be priceless,doesn't mean that he had the right to come to the Teleri and say "Hey I'll just take your stupid ships" (not to mention the fact that he killed many of them in the process).Fëanor was skilled and all but I bet he wouldn't know how to make a boat let alone a beautiful swan-ship.
A thing can be valued to be priceless by 90% of the people,yet to the other 10% it will have little or no value - they will cherish that which they made.:)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
But we should compare them according to the others opinion(Valar,Elves,Morgoth),not according to those who have made them.Of course everubody would like most the thing he has made. I wasn't clear in my earlier statement. What I meant was that it was as damaging to the Teleri to have their ships destroyed as it would have been to Feanor to have had the Silmarils destroyed. I wasn't seeking to appraise the comparitive worth of either to the world of Middle-earth... only the worth of each to the peoples who created them.

My opinion of the worth the Teleri placed on their ships is related directly to the following paragraph.from The Silmarillion, Of the Darkening of Valinor
But Olwë answered: 'We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. And when the Noldor welcomed us and gave us aid, otherwise then you spoke: the land of Aman we were to dwell for ever, as brother whose houses stand side by side. But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not the craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and daughters. Therefore we will neither give them not sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.It seems to me that Olwe is impressing on Feanor that the their ships are worth as much to them as Feanor's Silmarils are to him.

[Gil-Galad]

Of course,everybody loves most the things he has created,not the things the others have done.I'll write a short bulgarian story which can espresses in the best way the personal opinion:
Once the crow said to the dove:
"Please,would give this tasty worm to my child in the birds's school,I don't have enough time to go there."
"Ok,but who is your child?"-asked the dove.
"It's the most beautiful bird in the school,don't worry you'll see him."-answered the crow.
Two hours later the crow met the dove and asked:
"Did you give the worm to my child?"
"Hmmm,I looked ,I searched for the most beautiful bird,but my own child was the most beautiful bird and I gave the worm to him."

Simple ,isn't it?

;)

[Ithrynluin]

Simple and yet not so simple.:D

Ok,so almost everyone appreciates their own things above all else right? But you must show appreciation and respect towards other beautiful and worthy things as well,that are not of your own making.Melkor came along and stole the Sils and Fëanor was outraged - Morgoth took from him his most precious,dearest creation. Fëanor clearly didn't grasp what the ships meant to the Teleri when he violently STOLE their dearest creation.He acted in a similar way to Morgoth.That's sad.:(

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Simple and yet not so simple.:D

Ok,so almost everyone appreciates their own things above all else right? But you must show appreciation and respect towards other beautiful and worthy things as well,that are not of your own making.Melkor came along and stole the Sils and Fëanor was outraged - Morgoth took from him his most precious,dearest creation. Fëanor clearly didn't grasp what the ships meant to the Teleri when he violently STOLE their dearest creation.He acted in a similar way to Morgoth.That's sad.:(
Did the Teleri grasp what the silmarils meant to Feanor?If they did they would have helped him,but no, the ships were their "most precious,dearest creation" :mad:

[Grond]

Yes, the audacity of the Teleri to dare to withhold the use of their precious ships. And after all that Feanor's people had done to help the Teleri build their precious port in Aqualonde. Surely they deserved the death that was given to them by Feanor and his noble Noldor. :(

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Grond
Yes, the audacity of the Teleri to dare to withhold the use of their precious ships. And after all that Feanor's people had done to help the Teleri build their precious port in Aqualonde. Surely they deserved the death that was given to them by Feanor and his noble Noldor. :(
Of course they don't deserve it,nobody deserves it,but they should have helped them.:(

[Grond]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Of course they don't deserve it,nobody deserves it,but they should have helped them.:( And then they too would have been guilty of revolting against the Valar. The Teleri and the Vanyar were both faithful and neither were willing to participate in going against the Valar's wishes.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Did the Teleri grasp what the silmarils meant to Feanor?If they did they would have helped him,but no, the ships were their "most precious,dearest creation" :mad:

The giving or withholding of their ships was solely up to Olwë and his people.So much grief later came upon the Noldor in ME,that Olwë was right in denying the ships and obeying the will of the Valar.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Grond
And then they too would have been guilty of revolting against the Valar. The Teleri and the Vanyar were both faithful and neither were willing to participate in going against the Valar's wishes.
Noldor were free to leave Valinor,they were allowed by the Valar.But how can they leave it without ships?That's a kind of paradox,Noldor are free to leave and they can leave only by ships.At the same time Teleri are faithful to Valar and don't give the ships to the Noldor,because they don't want to go against Valar's wishes.So the Noldor are allowed to to leave Valinor,but they can't because of the Valar.
That sounds like the book "Paragraph 22"...

[Grond]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Noldor were free to leave Valinor,they were allowed by the Valar.But how can they leave it without ships?That's a kind of paradox,Noldor are free to leave and they can leave only by ships.At the same time Teleri are faithful to Valar and don't give the ships to the Noldor,because they don't want to go against Valar's wishes.So the Noldor are allowed to to leave Valinor,but they can't because of the Valar.
That sounds like the book "Paragraph 22"... I'm sure you're referring to Joseph Heller's Catch 22 but there really wasn't one here. from The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor
But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had mad thee thrice greater than thou art.' The Noldor proceeded against the express wishes of the Valar and sufferred the consequences. And you say that there was no way. Why couldn't the great Feanor simply have taken the path he forced upon his brother Fingolfin??? Couldn't the great Feanor have withstood the grinding ice of the Helcaraxe??? No... that way was too tough for the great Feanor... instead, he would murder his half-brother's kin and take from them one of the things they held most dear. Feanor truly showed his greatness on that day!!

[Grond]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I really had that book in mind,but I didn't know its title in English,I knew it in Bulgarian and I tried to paraphrase it. I knew it was a language thing and your interpretation (as you saw it was correct) but incorrect as I say it. :)

I felt that Feanor could always have taken the Helcaraxe that he forced his younger half-brother to take. ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Grond
I knew it was a language thing and your interpretation (as you saw it was correct) but incorrect as I say it. :)

I felt that Feanor could always have taken the Helcaraxe that he forced his younger half-brother to take. ;)
I agree he could have taken the Helcaraxe,but because of his anger and madness he killed the Teleri.At the same time they weren't absolutely right when they refused to give the Noldor ships.

[Lhunithiliel]

No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; .....
But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness

Oh, what now?! The good, the noble, the generous Valar are showing their "other" face? In other words: "If you don't obey us, death is what you'll get!"
What would you expect form Feanor?! From FEANOR!!! The one with the burning spirit !
Sit back and cross his arms? Or go to the valleys of Valinor to pick up some flowers for his half-brothers?

You know, I somehow think of Aldarion (UT) when I speak of Feanor.Both these men had greatest aims to achieve and both were not understood corretly by many of their own peoples.
But this certainly does NOT diminish the greatness of their deeds, although they both did some "ugly" things on their way to their aims.

[Grond]

Lhun, Ugly things ALWAYS diminish one's great deeds. It is as inevitable as the Sun and Moon rising. Even in Feanor's case.

[Nóm]

Since I have conradicted some of the reasons that people have used to prove that Feanor was not the greatest, it only fair that I tell why I do not think he ended up being the greatest.
Feanor was not the greatest because his personality had too many flaws. A lot of elves had flaws but because of Feanor's greatness in other aspects his flaws worked against him more than most's do.
His selfishness, stubborness, haste, and yeah even lack of wisdom caused him to do bad things, such as burning the ships.
The over all best Elf that we learn about is Finrod, and I do not say that because he is my favorite, rather his reasons for greatness are part of what makes him my favorite. I wouldn't be surprised if he followed the hotheaded ones back to Middle-earth so that he could make some difference in all the madness.
Middle-earth losing Finrod may have been the greatest loss of any one person ever. Who can say what his wisdom, kindness, and selflessness would have brought.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Grond
Lhun, Ugly things ALWAYS diminish one's great deeds. It is as inevitable as the Sun and Moon rising. Even in Feanor's case.
But if those "ugly things are done for decent cause - aren't they pardoned to some extent?
Consider this:
But Feanor laughed hardening his heart, and spoke not to the herald, but to the Noldor, saying: 'So! Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only, and return to their bondage? But if any will come with me, to them I say: Is sorrow foreboded to you? Verily in Aman we have seen it. In Aman we have come through bliss to woe. The other now we will try: through sorrow to find joy. Or at the least: freedom!'

Well, really, I can't say Feanor is the greatest elf ever... for what is greatness?! But I think he WAS great (which is a weak word to express it) !

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
But if those "ugly things are done for decent cause - aren't they pardoned to some extent?
Consider this:


Well, really, I can't say Feanor is the greatest elf ever... for what is greatness?! But I think he WAS great (which is a weak word to express it) ! Lhun, Lhun, Lhun, what decent cause would you be talking about? Was Feanor motivated by a desire to see his people become greater or was he motivated by his desire for revenge on Melkor? Given that his two greatest motivating forces (per The Silmarillion) were 1) recovery of the Silmarils and 2) revenge for the murder of his father, I would have to say that his "decent" cause wasn't decent at all and was selfish, overly proud and down right unpardonable... but that's just me.... I don't particular care for Feanor. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Master, if I imposed this little debate to your attention, it is only because I like it when I have a good oponent! :p

We are speaking of Feanor's causes, which he presented as decent (see the same quote).... But you know, I'm thinking...

1/ Feanor was a leader, an individual who posessed that rare gift to persuade others in the rightness (is there such a word?) of his own actions. A few have this gift!

2/ Great leaders, like Feanor, mankind has known a few - some were remembered as leaders for right causes, others - for wrong causes. Not intending to plunge again into the depths of the discussion "what is right and what is wrong? , I however would say that people, in general, consider a cause as "good" when the cause of the leader coincides with the causes of the greater part of the society. This explains why the rest part of the same society, that one that has a cause different from the generally considered as "right"=different from the leader's cause as well, would consider in its turn the leader's cause as "wrong".

3/ A leader is a person > means a human being, who, despite his/her outstanding physical or/and mental abilities, has emotions and strictly personal views, understandings and ambitions as well.

So, I'm thinking, could it be that these very special individuals (1) driven by their own personal ambitions (3) just happen to find the needed followers (2).....? And thus they become great and remain in the history of mankind....and people (like us :p ) dedicate their precious time to discuss on their GREATNESS...:rolleyes: ;) :p

[Grond]

But Lhun, by your own definition, Hitler was a Great Leader. I personally feel Hitler was a greatly evil leader and that he has not entitled to greatness. Strecthing the bounds of your definition, one could infer both Sauron and Melkor were also great leaders. I guess it all depends on your definition of greatness.

Insofar as Feanor is concernend, he was not the Greatest even using your definition. Fingolfin's host was by far larger than Feanor's.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Grond
But Lhun, by your own definition, Hitler was a Great Leader. I personally feel Hitler was a greatly evil leader and that he has not entitled to greatness. Strecthing the bounds of your definition, one could infer both Sauron and Melkor were also great leaders. I guess it all depends on your definition of greatness.
Exactly, Master! They were all GREAT LEADERS - only the causes they had were different!
Speaking about Hitler, the whole world hates him and for thousands of reasons! But why did he have followers? Well, I am not some expert in history, but it seems it was so because the greater part of the German society at his time wanted to become that "super-nation" that his sick brain had imagined! So, you see, my equation works in his case.

But, I'd better leave you in peace! You said yourself - you are not interested in Feanor.

BTW, in Oxford Dictionary, 2000 edition there is a half page in very small letters, dedicated to the meanings of the word "great" - too much information to quote! ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Grond
But Lhun, by your own definition, Hitler was a Great Leader. I personally feel Hitler was a greatly evil leader and that he has not entitled to greatness. Strecthing the bounds of your definition, one could infer both Sauron and Melkor were also great leaders. I guess it all depends on your definition of greatness.

Insofar as Feanor is concernend, he was not the Greatest even using your definition. Fingolfin's host was by far larger than Feanor's.
I thought about all Feanor's mistakes ......I still think that he is the greatest elf,the greatest leader.The greatest people(elves in this case) are a compilation of good and bad features.Of awful things they have done and great deed they do!That makes them great,there's no perfect person.Feanor does many mistakes, but they show him as a leader,as an elf who has no fear of Valar or even Melkor,as an elf who won't stop till he reach his aim,as an elf ready to sacrifice almost everything,but to reach his aim......
By the way Grond I suggest you to read some of Viktor Suvorov's books and then to see who is an evil leader;) :cool:

[Wonko The Sane]

You didn't mention Gil-Galad or Glorfindel!!
My fave I think is Glorfindel because he killed a balrog! That makes him a beast!

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
You didn't mention Gil-Galad or Glorfindel!!
My fave I think is Glorfindel because he killed a balrog! That makes him a beast!
But Wonko this thread is ment to be about who is the greatest and not who is our favorites. You might want to look at this thread. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=5618) It deals with favorites and a lot of other people have named Glorfindel there. :D
If you check out that thread, you might want to see what is said about Ecthelion..:D

[Wonko The Sane]

But I think Glorfindel IS the greatest! He killed the Balrog!! He's a beast!!!!

[Tyaronumen]

Greatest is soooooo subjective a term.

If I were Samwise the Gardener, I probably wouldn't be picking a Feanor or a Fingolfin as the "greatest"... No, I'd pick Galadriel because of her gift (which I think we can all agree is pretty much the ultimate gardener's gift... "magic dirt" and a mallorn seed...!)

If I'm Aragorn, son of Arathorn, I might be more inclined to select a Fingolfin, a Gil-Galad, or a Finarfin... I wouldn't pick Feanor, because he was a baaad boy (from a pro-Valar perspective -- which Aragorn would have, clearly, as the last of the Numenoreans)... nor Turgon, because in the end, wisdom failed him and he disregarded the sage advice of Ulmo.

If I'm Boromir? Why certainly! Feanor, the great warrior, great smith, etc. might make a dashing selection...

It's all pretty darned subjective, IMHO. :)

IMHO, my personal "greatest elf" would probably be Finarfin. What a wonderful being.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Oh, what now?! The good, the noble, the generous Valar are showing their "other" face? In other words: "If you don't obey us, death is what you'll get!"
What would you expect form Feanor?! From FEANOR!!! The one with the burning spirit !
Sit back and cross his arms? Or go to the valleys of Valinor to pick up some flowers for his half-brothers?

You know, I somehow think of Aldarion (UT) when I speak of Feanor.Both these men had greatest aims to achieve and both were not understood corretly by many of their own peoples.
But this certainly does NOT diminish the greatness of their deeds, although they both did some "ugly" things on their way to their aims.


Lhunithiliel -- "by thine own oath" does NOT mean "if you don't obey us, death is what you'll get"... it means "you've gone too far -- even we Valar can't 'mulligan' an oath taken to Iluvatar. Good luck!"

It's a rash and foolish thing to make an unbreakable oath, if you ask me. Changing conditions can twist the most sincere and well-meant oath into something ugly.

[Tyaronumen]

BTW: To me, the "greatest" leaders are those about whom little is written in the annals of war save of the following sort: "during his/her reign, the people were prosperous and happy, the land was fertile and well cared for, and the economy was prosperous. The nation made peace with her neighbors, and great commerce was engaged in for the benefit of all. No wars occurred, for (s)he was a diplomat of the greatest skill, and balanced the needs of all with great care and compassion."

[HLGStrider]

Four posts in a row? Ever heard of the edit button? :rolleyes: ;)

Anyway, just wanted to agree with your posts... the one Grond agreed with and the last.

Though I also would hold respect for a leader in troubled times if the troubled times were not his fault. Which could happen. AKA defending his country against trouble. I tend not to attribute prosperity to rulers. Normally it is the citizens who make or break a civilization.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Melian dear,you are forgetting that I am one of the Maiar also.May I invite you to some Maiar ale?;)
Hey guys what about me?!I'm one of Melian's best friends!!!
p.s.ithrynluin,am I really naughty?!:D :D :D

[Wonko The Sane]

I sure hope so!!!


I voted for Fingolfin since Glorfindel isn't on there.

Fingolfin's a beast!

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
I voted for Fingolfin since Glorfindel isn't on there.

Fingolfin's a beast!

Wonks,how come so many elves are "beasts" to you?:D

[Nóm]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Wonks,how come so many elves are "beasts" to you?:D
Good question considering that Finrod is the true beast, as he killed the werewolf with his hands and teeth.:D :D :D

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Wonks,how come so many elves are "beasts" to you?:D

Just the two...Glorfindel and Fingolfin. ;) Ok...well..Finrod's a beat too I guess.

But that's all. Legolas is a SEXY beast...but that's different.

[Nóm]

For awhile I would not say that Finrod was the greatest, and that is because he is my favorite immortal in all of Tolkien's books. I thought I love him so much that I would be too bias to name him as the greatest. I also wasn't sure how I should define "greatness". He is the greatest though. So here is more of a case for him in addition to what I have already posted.
Finrod built Nargathrond, but he himself unlike many of the others who build hide-aways, went out into danger. This safe place he made for his people, not himself.
He befriended dwarves and men. I wonder often how things would have gone between men and elves if not for Finrod. Maybe it would be that the 3 houses of edain would never have been elf friends. Then what? Maybe Melkor would have currupted them. Maybe there would never have been a freindship between elves and men. Finrod's actions were for the good of everyone not on the side of Morgoth. He was selfess, wise, and nobel.
I think the whole race of men may have been turned to evil if not for him.
So Feanor was an amzing craftsman. How much good did he do for everyone?
Luthien was very poweful. She didn't put forth great effort to do good for others, only in her selfish acts out of love for Beren did she go against Morgoth. What the! Any person who was working for the good of all would have killed him before reaching for a Silmaril.
Fingolfin? He was lost to Morgoth before he ever reached Angbad, even before he mounted his horse.
Thingol? Good king to have, but he wasn't as wise as some others, and he was selfish.
Turgon? He would be my second choice for greatest.


PS: I am going to go through this entire thread later and chop down any arguements against Finrod..:D

[Ithrynluin]

Good points about Finrod. He would be my next choice (after Galadriel;)) followed by Cirdan and Elrond I think.
Turgon would not be on my top list though.

P.S.:It amazes me that noone voted for Fingon.:eek:

[Wonko The Sane]

I'm not a big fan of Turgon.
But Ecthelion...I like him. He's a beast too. He killed Gothmog or summat.
That takes ***...courage.

***EDITED BY GROND!
Wonks..... you're pushing the envelope!

[Tyaronumen]

Yah -- he's got Elvish blood through Elros Tar-Minyataur (Elrond's brother)... granted, it's had to have become extremely diluted by Aragorn's generation, but if nothing else, his heritage includes the Elves... also the Maiar, because of Melian.

(Somewhat) interestingly, Eldarion, Aragorn's son, actually has a good deal more "Elvish" heritage because he is Arwen's daughter (meaning that Eldarion is far closer to Luthien, Melian, etc. than Aragorn is...)...

Heh :)

[Wonko The Sane]

So then can I say that Aragorn is the greatest "elf" ever?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
So then can I say that Aragorn is the greatest "elf" ever?
Sure you can say it, but it will not be true.
1) Aragorn is a man
2) Finrod is the greatest..:D..see my post on the previous page.

[Wonko The Sane]

1) I know he's not but he has Elvish blood! That's good enough for me.
2) What's so great about Finrod? Who did he kill? He's no beast!

[Grond]

from The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien
By the arts of Felagund their own forms and faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs; and thus disguised they came far upon their northward road, and ventured into the western pass, between Ered Wethrin and the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin. But Sauron in his tower was ware of them, and doubt took him; for they went in haste, and stayed not to report their deeds, as was commanded to all the servants of Morgoth that passed that way. Therefore he sent to waylay them, and bring them before him.

Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying,
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape.
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens, The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn
And Finrod fell before the throne.

...In the pits of Sauron Beren and Felagund lay, and all their companions were now dead; but Sauron purposed to keep Felagund to the last, for he perceived that he was a Noldo of great might and wisdom and he deemed that in him lay the secret of their errand. But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death. Then he spoke to Beren, saying: 'I go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the Mountains of Aman. It will be long ere I am seen among the Noldor again; and it may be that we shall not meet a second time in death of life, for the fates of our kindreds are apart. Farewell!' He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair.Wonkers.... Finrod was a beast. He was such a beast that I (a grown man) still weep when I again read his tale. If only I could be such a beast.

[Nóm]

Posted by Wonko The Sane
1) I know he's not but he has Elvish blood! That's good enough for me.
2) What's so great about Finrod? Who did he kill? He's no beast!
Well it's okay to pick Aragorn, who cares if others agree with you. ;)
Who did Finrod kill?...Oh wow...


Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
Just the two...Glorfindel and Fingolfin. ;) Ok...well..Finrod's a beat too I guess.

But that's all. Legolas is a SEXY beast...but that's different.
You previously agreed that he is a beast when I told you about him killing the wolf.

As for what is so great about him?
The way I see it he was perfect. There was not one thing wrong with him.
Not one personal fault.
He was also the wisest of all the elves who returned to Middle-earth. Yeah ,wiser than his cousins and uncles and all of their people.
He made allies of dwarves and men. If you really want to know either read The Silmarillion a couple times or read this entire thread. Though, I would strongly recommend read both.

PS: I don't know if you care or not, but he is Galadriel's brother.
Also, if you really want to know more of Finrod, read Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, it is in the book Morgoth's Ring, that is one of the Histories of Middle-earth. It gives you a glimpse into Finrod's mind, among other things.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
What's so great about Finrod? Who did he kill? He's no beast!

What is this insanity to judge about one's best qualities and achievements by the number of people or whatever other creatures that one has killed? :eek: :eek:

IMO, if we would like to continue a "sane" discussion on the topic, we have to forget about violence in any and all its forms! Only in this way we shall be able to recognize true greatness.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
What is this insanity to judge about one's best qualities and achievements by the number of people or whatever other creatures that one has killed? :eek: :eek:

IMO, if we would like to continue a "sane" discussion on the topic, we have to forget about violence in any and all its forms! Only in this way we shall be able to recognize true greatness. Lhun... let's go with this killing thing. Finrod killed one terribly frightening werewolf Wonkers.... does that throw him into your best category yet? :D

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Grond
Lhun... let's go with this killing thing. Finrod killed one terribly frightening werewolf Wonkers.... does that throw him into your best category yet? :D
Ah Grond, you said something to someone once about having not read your post. So now I can say the same thing to you.
You didn't read my posts :p
Wonko actually already said that Finrod was a beast after I told her about the werewolf and the teeth and hands that Finrod kill it with. I think she forgot about him already though. :eek:..Is it so Wonko?

[Lhunithiliel]

I respect Finrod for his wisdom MUCH MORE than for him being able to kill. :rolleyes:
-----------------------
......and Master, I have felt "jelous" lately ;) :D as you have stopped talking to me and have been having such an active conversation with the Queen of the Stars in Valinor! ;)

[Finduilas]

I'm still reading the Sil but up to now I think Feanor is the guy.

[Anamatar IV]

woah! Luthien isnt on this thread?!?!?!?!??!?!:eek: I voted for Fingolfin but I think Earendil would be a better choice. KEEP IN MIND THAT IN THE END HE was AN ELF.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
woah! Luthien isnt on this thread?!?!?!?!??!?!:eek: I voted for Fingolfin but I think Earendil would be a better choice. KEEP IN MIND THAT IN THE END HE was AN ELF.
Well I should add something very very little,but of great importnace.Earendil is half an elf that puts him out of the list.You cannot be the greatest elf ever when you are only 50% elf.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Well I should add something very very little,but of great importnace.Earendil is half an elf that puts him out of the list.You cannot be the greatest elf ever when you are only 50% elf.

That's weird. How come Elrond and Arwen are on the poll then?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
That's weird. How come Elrond and Arwen are on the poll then?
In fact I didn't put Arwen in the poll,but someone from the Mods did it.;)

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
In fact I didn't put Arwen in the poll,but someone from the Mods did it.;)

Aha. So what's your excuse for Elrond then? You don't have one,huh? :rolleyes: ;) Eärendil and Luthien should have been included and that's that.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
ups Confusticated,you have made a simple mistake.Can I correct it?
1)Aragorn is a man
2)Feanor is the greatest elf ever...:D :D :D

Simple mistake?
If someone can convince me that another elf was greater than Finrod that is fine. Please enlighten me. But Feanor? I laugh at the thought.
He was:
selfish
hasty
short-sighted
That's just for starters though.
Now you Gil-galad, tell me why these three things are not true, or tell me three faults with Finrod. Otherwise, I don't see how you assume to correct me.


Finrod vs Feanor: The battle is on!!

[Ithrynluin]

Oooh,this should be fun. *makes popcorn,sits back and watches the show* Go Finrod!:D

[Grond]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Simple mistake?
If someone can convince me that another elf was greater than Finrod that is fine. Please enlighten me. But Feanor? I laugh at the thought.
He was:
selfish
hasty
short-sighted
That's just for starters though...
Confusticated... you left off
a murderer of friends
abandoner of kin
petty
jealous
prideful
spiteful

I'll think of some more descriptive adjectives later. :);)

[Maedhros]

I'll think of some more descriptive adjectives later.
You forgot unrivalled genius. Have you read the appendix of Quendi and Eldar, there you really see why he is unrivalled in lore matters.

[Grond]

Being deemed an unrivaled genius hardly equates to heroism. You can say he was the unrivaled genius of the Noldor. You can say he was a craftsman extraordinaire. Call him a Master in the craft of Aule. But don't call a murdering thief great.

[Maedhros]

To me he's great. That does not mean that he was a good elf, but great.

[Grond]

So he was a great elf who also did great evil?

[Maedhros]

Yes, that's it. In the end, what he began turned to be the best thing for the world.:)

[Nóm]

Yeah Feanor was a genius in a craft that we do not even understand.
Feanor was born with something more.
This claims from.............Maedhros that Feanor dared to be different I do not buy.
He was different, plain and simple. There was no daring about it that I see? In what way? his genius? That alone is nothing to do with daring.
Would you say that geniouses like De Vinci or Einstien dared to be different? Not me, I say they couldn't help but be different.
YOu mean he dared to go against the migtiest Vala?
To what end? To what kind of person is revenge (and you claim that his was more important to him than his silmarils) worth walking into such danger with your own sons? Killing people because they will not let you take their greatest creations, their hardest works, most beautiful works at the drop of a hat?
What kind of a hypocrital, narrowminded, hasty, violent, selfish ,person would behave the way that Feanor did? Oh wait, I think I answered my own question.

[Maedhros]

YOu mean he dared to go against the migtiest Vala?
To what end? To what kind of person is revenge (and you claim that his was more important to him than his silmarils)
I claim that his father was more important to him than even the works of his hands.
From The Published Silmarillion:
Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
To a person who his father is everything to him.
Killing people because they will not let you take their greatest creations, their hardest works, most beautiful works at the drop of a hat?
There were other alternatives, such as the transportation of the Noldor by the Teleri, yet the Teleri were unwilling to lend them any aid.
What kind of a hypocrital, narrowminded, hasty, violent, selfish ,person would behave the way that Feanor did?
Someone who was lost in grief with the Killing of his father and seeing that the Great Valar had done nothing to look for his killer.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Maedhros
There were other alternatives, such as the transportation of the Noldor by the Teleri, yet the Teleri were unwilling to lend them any aid.


And maybe you forgot about yet ANOTHER alternative? The haughty Mr. Feanor could have gone on foot,like his brother did. Remember? The decision of lending their ships was up to the Teleri.

[Lhunithiliel]

The world is not simply black and white!
People cannot be simply good or simply bad!
Things done cannot be simply right or simply wrong!

And didn't Finrod kill too?

[Nóm]

If not the kinslaying then you must be talking about the werewolf or orcs? Ah, well. There a big difference between killing to defend your people and killing those who fight only to protect what is theirs from you unlawfully taking it.

If Kinslaying...
For now, there is this:
Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë
While this speaks of Fingolfin's people, it does show that not all of the exiles were guilty of kinslaying through saying that not all were guiltless.

'I marvel at you, son of Eärwen,' said Thingol, 'that you would come to the board of your kinsman thus red-handed from the slaying of your mother's kin, and yet say naught in defence, nor yet seek any pardon!'
Then Finrod was greatly troubled, but he was silent, for he could not defend himself, save by bringing charges against the other princes of the Noldor; and that he was loath to do before Thingol. But in Angrod's heart the memory of the words of Caranthir welled up again in bitterness, and he cried: 'Lord, I know not what lies you have heard, nor whence; but we came not red-handed. Guiltless we came forth, save maybe of folly, to listen to the words of fell Fëanor, and become as if besotted with wine, and as briefly. No evil did we do on our road, but suffered ourselves great wrong; and forgave it. For this we are named tale-bearers to you and treasonable to the Noldor; untruly as you know, for we have of our loyalty been silent before you, and thus earned your anger. But now these charges are no longer to be borne, and the truth you shall know.'
then Angrod spoke bitterly against the sons of Fëanor, telling of the blood at Alqualondë, and the Doom of Mandos, and the burning of the ships at Losgar. and he cried: 'Wherefore should we that endured the Grinding Ice bear the Name of kinslayers and traitors?'

I will find more. Finrod did not kill elves as I see it.
If people disagree I would like to continue to discuss this.

Here's the evidence that he was the most wise of all the exiles.
This tale, which the Eldar call Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, is here given in one of the forms that have been preserved.

Finrod (son of Finarfin, son of Finwe) was the wisest of the
exiled Noldor, being more concerned than all others with matters of thought (rather than with making or with skill of hand); and he was eager moreover to discover all that he could
concerning Mankind.
That is from the introduction of one of the version of Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. Interpret it as you will, but I agree that FInrod was the wisest.

The Wisest of the exiles. That's right, no others were as wise as he was. Why would the wisest among them take part in kinslaying?

They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin's son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.
Does that sound like the grave of a kinslayer?
Also, does walking with his father beneath the trees in Eldamar sound like the reward to a kinslayer?
No to me.

PS: Lhunithiliel, who said that all things were either whole good or wholy bad, who said that things are only black and white?!?!?!?!:confused:

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
The world is not simply black and white!
People cannot be simply good or simply bad!
Things done cannot be simply right or simply wrong!

And didn't Finrod kill too? Please don't tell me that you are insinuating what Finrod did to aid his kin equates to the murder of the innocent Teleri in Valinor. The only way to make that work is to assign an evil motive to the Teleri's denial of the use of their ships and that won't fly.

One need only look at the Silmarillion to see where the mose instances of Elf fighting elf occurs. It occurs whenever anyone speaks of recovering a Silmaril for their own sake... and the perpetrators of the Elf on Elf fighting (with the exception of Eol) are always the Sons of Feanor who are driven by the Curse. Finrod killed in war, Fingolfin killed in war, Fingon killed in war, Turgon killed war, but only Feanor murdered his own brethren. :(

[Melian]

"Good" and "Great" are not always the same.You could be great in your maliciousness.

[Lhunithiliel]

Grond, Conf... Nym, Please, excuse me for being away for a while and being not able to answer to your posts :o

Look, I'm NOT saying that Finrod actually killed other elves, especially in the shameful slaughter at Alqualonde. And YES, I admit that his wisdom is remarkable! I am in love with the way he discusses various matters with Andreth! I admire his wisdom! Don't misunderstand me! I RESPECT HIM A LOT!
I was rather saying that he killed too when necessary....The very act of killing, I meant. I am well aware of the fact that Finrod does not have the curse of Feanor's personal and individual fate upon his life... but then, these both are so different and...... at the same time, equally great in their own respective ways.... Finrod - for his wisdom and Feanor - for his burning desire for independence..... At least this is the way I see these two characters.
Originally posted by Melian
"Good" and "Great" are not always the same.You could be great in your maliciousness.
This is how I understand it, too. And I have said it in other ways, in other words... maybe in another thread (there are a few on Feanor). But still this is my point too.

[Nóm]

Alright. I understand. I tend to get a little tiny bit defensive about Finrod. ;)

I admit as much as the next person that Feanor had great charactoristics too. Yeah we will never agree on the way we define greatness.
I understand how some think Feanor is the greatest, though I do not agree with everyone's reasons. I have seen some reasons that are in my opinion, lousy.
If we were to ask who wabt the best elf, over-all....that is, all things considered. I wonder would so many answer that Feanor is the one.

[Tyaronumen]

I would certainly not choose a selfish scumbag like Feanor. :D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen
I would certainly not choose a selfish scumbag like Feanor. :D
Why "a selfish scumbag"?:(

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Why "a selfish scumbag"?:(

Here we go again.:rolleyes:

[Nóm]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Here we go again.:rolleyes:
Nay.
Not with me we don't.
If someone can not see that Feanor is (fit of laughter) as selfish as hell....then I find them to be beyond convincing.
The notion that Feanor was not selfish is ridulous as I see it. Just about as ridiculous as anything can get.

[Gil-Galad]

Hm,we would say the same thing.That anybody who doesn't agree Feanor is the greatest,doesn't know the meaning of "great"(that just an exmple),and doesn't appreciate what he has don .We won't find any points of agreement untill we make some compromises.
By the way Nym,is that Droopy on your avatar?It's sweet

[Maeglin]

You people are still arguing about this? Why can't you see that Glorfindel is the best ever?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen
I would certainly not choose a selfish scumbag like Feanor. :D
A "scumbag", eh?
"Selfish", eh?
"Murderer", eh?

LOOK AT THE POLL!!!

FEANOR STILL LEADS!!!
:p :p :p

[Maeglin]

Okay I am going to be truthful now, I actually think Cirdan is the Greatest ever, don't ask me why, I just do. Maybe its because he stayed in Middle-Earth for so long to help the rest of the elves when they wanted to leave, and he has so many chances, but I'm not sure what it is really.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

LOOK AT THE POLL!!!

FEANOR STILL LEADS!!!
:p :p :p

LOOK AT MY FACE!!!

I DON'T CARE!!!
:p :D

Are you even aware of how many people voted for Fëanor because Luthien(or some other elf) isn't up there? Look back on the thread and cry.;)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by ithrynluin

Are you even aware of how many people voted for Fëanor because Luthien(or some other elf) isn't up there? Look back on the thread and cry.;)
There are only three elves that I would choose Feanor over: Curufin, Celegorm and Maeglin.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
There are only three elves that I would choose Feanor over: Curufin, Celegorm and Maeglin.

I suppose you are thinking about "evil" deeds. What about Eöl? Do you not see him in the same category?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I suppose you are thinking about "evil" deeds. What about Eöl? Do you not see him in the same category?
I am thinking about over-all charactor and actions.
First, I see Maeglin as being in a different catagory than C&C.
Eol is closer in catagory to Maeglin.
Maeglin intentionally caused the fall of Gondolin though.

C&C are things I can not say in this forum, but I could tell you on MSN ;)
They were as selfish and cruel as their father, but they were weaker than he was. They were nothing special.

[Melian Le Fay]

Hey, I've got an idea!
We should all divide into two (or more) teams, those pro Feanor and those against him, then meet somewhere on neutral lands and fight!!! And those who win will prove their opinion as the only true one.


OK, that's a stupid idea... So don't mind this post........:rolleyes:

But we should protect the honour of our beloved Elves!!!:p :D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
Okay I am going to be truthful now, I actually think Cirdan is the Greatest ever, don't ask me why, I just do. Maybe its because he stayed in Middle-Earth for so long to help the rest of the elves when they wanted to leave, and he has so many chances, but I'm not sure what it is really.
Well I must confess that in the very beginning I thought the same thing.So I liked your idea about Cirdan.
I saw the vote for the greatest elf and I wonder something.I'm wondering why nobody has voted for Fingon?Isn't he one of the greatest elves in Arda?I think so...but obviously some believe Arwen is greater than him....:( :(

[Isengrin]

FINGOLFIN :D

He have cut one of Morgoth foot :D

He was so courageous :D

FinGolFin

HURRAY FINGOLFIN

HURRAY FOR THE NOLODOR

BOUHHH MORGOTH !

[Melian]

Seems someone's been overexcited,eh?:D

Don't you think there's something fascinating in the concept of The Superelf?!Where's Nietzshe?There's been even some nihilism here among supporters of one or other candidate for the title(I admit I'm a rabid one,for Feanor's sake)...

[HLGStrider]

Perhaps one who embodies the most good points... and in the greatest percentages. One who is all of the above?

Does such an elf exist?

And if such a man exists what's his phone number? ;)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Smeagol
What is greatness?
That is what most of this thread has been about. If we could agree on the definition as it sould apply to an elf then we'd probably have an answer. But even if not we'd have it narrowed down more than it is now.
Originally posted by Smeagol
The highest ranking elf is Ingwë, the best craftsman ever is Fëanor, the most noble elf is Finrod, the most valiant elf is Fingolfin, the most beautiful elf is Lúthien, ...
Feanor = selfish,hot-heated, murderer of elves
Fingolfin = lost to despair
Luthien = used beauty and gifts to put Morgoth to sleep. Put Morgoth to sleep to get a silmaril. Got a silmaril to be with Beren. I measure that as a selfish act even though it lead to the defeat of Morgoth.
Finrod = not one thing negative to say here. To nobel I would add intelligence and wisdom. He was ahead of his time in his friendship with other races, this friendship with men turned out to be for the good of all good races in Middle-earth for as long as history has been recorded.
The loss of Finrod, was in my opinion the greatest loss of any one person that Middle-earth has ever known.
If I could choose ANYONE to be my King it would be Finrod.

[HLGStrider]

Humph... says the Luthien fan. It was for love, after all... Elgee swoons.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Humph... says the Luthien fan. It was for love, after all... Elgee swoons.
Not only was it for love but it was for being in love, and there is a small difference but furthermore it was doing good for herself and Beren which motivated her. whereas Finrod was motivated by doing good for all the people of Middle-earth. He was selfless.

[Maeglin]

I agree, with Nom. I have had several debates about this in my Latin/Philosophy class, all based around the story The Giving Tree, the tree is doing her acts out of love but was it selfless or selfish, it is an ongoing debate, but I have to go with the selfish side.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
ups,excuse me .Where am I in this list?:confused: :mad:

Let me add you to the list Gil-Galad:

The highest ranking elf is Ingwë, the best craftsman ever is Fëanor, the most noble elf is Finrod, the most valiant elf is Fingolfin, the most beautiful elf is Lúthien, the most self-involved elf is Gil-Galad...

Happy?:rolleyes: :D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
That was a joke!Geez...:rolleyes: :p

Could we say that Gil-Galad was the best warrior?
Yeah I like this idea,if this is true then you are my favourite Maia;)
And Glorfindel 1187,where the heck,could you be?Next to me,actually we are the best warriors,what else:p

[Maeglin]

Of course right next to you, or else the most self-involved.:D :cool:

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Makes sense... I used my dream guy's name... Plus my very literary sounding initials...

HLGStrider.........I thought it meant High Lord of Gondor - Strider.....:confused:

Originally posted by Nom
Feanor = selfish,hot-heated, murderer of elves
Fingolfin = lost to despair
Luthien = used beauty and gifts to put Morgoth to sleep. Put Morgoth to sleep to get a silmaril. Got a silmaril to be with Beren. I measure that as a selfish act even though it lead to the defeat of Morgoth.
Finrod = not one thing negative to say here. To nobel I would add intelligence and wisdom. He was ahead of his time in his friendship with other races, this friendship with men turned out to be for the good of all good races in Middle-earth for as long as history has been recorded.
The loss of Finrod, was in my opinion the greatest loss of any one person that Middle-earth has ever known.
If I could choose ANYONE to be my King it would be Finrod.

I have to partly agree and partly disagree with you, Nom. First, I completely agree with that part about Finrod!!!
;) :p Too bad the love of his life never followed him to ME.....:(
But, enough about that!:)
I disagree that Luthien's actions were purely selfish. Anyway, what is selfish? Yes, she was driven by personal reasons, but she didn't think selfishly - "I don't care if everyone drops dead, as long as I get what I want". Personal reasons aren't wrong. Many great deads were done because of personal reasons. Those are the strongest "engines' we posses, and somehow I doubt there was a single character in The Sil, or LOtr, etc. who engaged in a "high cause" just for the sake of the world. But when you say selfish, it sounds... well, bad! Luthien wasn't bad, and she too had the suffering fate of the world on her mind. Or did you forget her song to Mandos, about tormented fates of men, and elves, the entire ME? Her song was the only one that moved Mandos, and therefore it had to come from the heart....
And as for Feanor.... somehow, I think it was his sons that did greater evil, and were more selfish than him. I came to think that feanor's "fire", his fiery soul just burned to strong, or should I say he was way to passionate... PAssionate people often do wrong things, because they cannot control themselves. I know this seems blunt, but his desire for the jewels, his hatret for Morgoth (not just because of the jewels. Morgoth did kill his father whom Feanor loved greatly) and his stubborness, and also, I agree, his selfishness, and lack of respect for the others drove him to do all the things he did. And he'll spend an eternity thinking about that. But his sons, who weren't so personally involved, well, at least not in the same measure like their father, did much worse deeds. But somehow, after reading the book for the first time, I was under the impression it was all Feanor, I don't know, it seemed like he was the only guilty party. But he wasn't. His sons were much worse, but their characters were weak, not so "rememberable" like the fiery Feanor, so, I suppose, all those evils I somehow put under Feanor's name....

[Melian Le Fay]

OK, I know this question isn't much related to the topic of this thread, but I somehow came to the conclusion that Feanor and Turin were "made of the same substance"....
It's a bit difficult to explain, but their characters, and their passion, their fates seem somehow similar...
And let's not forget their ultimate fate in the Last Battle... It's like those of the most fiery spirits will be "alowed" to destroy Morgoth....
And if any of you guys has an idea where I can discuss more about this, please, tell me!!! :)

[Melian]

Hey,you have the same (real) name as mine!
As far as feanor and Turin are concerned,I don't think they have much in common.Let me say that to me Feanor is far more clever and luckier than Turin.And Turin is more good-hearted and misfortunate.But his misfortune was predestined somehow.

[Finduilas]

Let me say that to me Feanor is far more clever and luckier than Turin.

Yea.I think Turin is the most unluckier person I've known or heard about.:) (or read I suppose)

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

I voted for Mama G. She's described as being the best one in ME anyway... plus she is FULL Elf unlike Luthien, Elrond, Arwen, etc.

[redline2200]

Whoever puts that Arwen is the greatest elf of all time obviously has no idea of anything about The Lord of the Rings. They probably just voted for her because they think that Liv Tyler is hot in "the movie." I mean come on all she did was get involved with Aragorn whenever there is other elves on the list with rings of power. I don't see how you could rate Arwen over Feanor or Cirdan or Galadriel.

[Maeglin]

ooohhh thank you soooooo much redline I've been wanting to say that for forever but I have held my tongue, until now.... Arwen has absolutely no role in the story and I don't see why she is on the poll at all!:mad:

[HLGStrider]

She's on the poll because someone complained about the lack of female elfs... and they added her and Gal.
Possibly to make it more politically correct? I don't know. Gal. certainly deserves the place. I would've put Luthien before Arwen, though.

[Maeglin]

I agree that Galadriel definitely deserves a place, but Arwen just takes up space on the poll.

[Link]

Earendil was the greatest Elf (okay, he was half-elven, but later became a full elf). End Argument..........

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Dáin Ironfoot I
I voted for Mama G. She's described as being the best one in ME anyway... plus she is FULL Elf unlike Luthien, Elrond, Arwen, etc.

Her greatness goes beyond Middle Earth. She is the greatest of the Noldor, coëval to Fëanor.:rolleyes:

[Ithrynluin]

Did anyone notice that Fingon doesn't even have a single vote?

[Maeglin]

oooh oooh I noticed! I also can't remember who he is, its been about 6 months since I read The Sil and that was my first time reading it so I don't remember all of the names, maybe If I knew who he was I would have considered him in my voting.:rolleyes:

[Gil-Galad]

I noticed it first!I asked why nobody hasn't voted for Fingon.Isn't he greater than Arwen?I cannot accept that Arwen is greater than Fingon and the poll shows exactly that.:confused:

[Ithrynluin]

The poll shows many things,Gil-Galad. Things that are true, and things that are false, and some things that are plain silly.:D One of the latter being the fact that Fëanor has 38 votes. :p

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I noticed it first!I asked why nobody hasn't voted for Fingon.Isn't he greater than Arwen?
Well if you aren't willing to vote for Fingon how could you expect someone else to? :D
Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I cannot accept that Arwen is greater than Fingon and the poll shows exactly that.:confused:
Maybe some can not accept that Feanor is greater than Finrod or Galadriel, but the poll shows that. :D

The polls just shows what those who happen to see the thread and care enough to vote think.
How often are majority views the most wise anyhow? ;)

[Gil-Galad]

I wonder who thinks Arwen is greater than Fingon.I'm sure I'm talking about persons who haven't read the Sil.That is sad,because you cannot judge who is the greatest when you haven't read the sil.:(

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Obvioulsy only you two guys

Only us two? Well obviously not, judging by the number of votes.
I couldn't possibly even begin to judge Fëanor on the same scale as some of the great ones that are up there (as well as the ones that are not, notably Lúthien and Eärendil).:)

[Celebithil]

Either Finrod or Fingolfin both are really powerful and had a huge impact on the world of middle earth. I can also see Luthien because she started the whole bloodline of the kings and such and they greatly affected middle earth.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Only us two? Well obviously not, judging by the number of votes.
I couldn't possibly even begin to judge Fëanor on the same scale as some of the great ones that are up there (as well as the ones that are not, notably Lúthien and Eärendil).:)
Why Earendil?He is half an elf... no matter he becomes 100% elf later in Valinor....he was born half an elf.

[Melian]

Interesting.And which half do you think was the Elvish one?

[HLGStrider]

And Arwen ceased to be an elf... so why is she up there?

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
And Arwen ceased to be an elf... so why is she up there?
I asked similar question several times.Why Arwen is in the poll?I did not put her there,probably some of the moderators did it.
No matter she became mortal woman later she was born elf.That is different from to be born half an elf.That is why she was put in the poll ,I think,she was born elf .

[Finduilas]

No matter she became mortal woman later she was born elf.That is different from to be born half an elf.That is why she was put in the poll ,I think,she was born elf .

I agree that she was born an elf.I mean that I do think so as well.But I don't know why she was put in the poll?:confused:
Just to ask : Has it something to do with the movie?;) :p

[Nóm]

I hadn't given it any thought. I figured that because Gil-Galad did not put any females in the pole that the moderator(s) who added them did so because they were in a tight spot trying to think of female elves to include and decided to stick Arwen up there because she was one of the few who came to mind.
though, I can think of better... Idril just to name one. Though I do not see how anyone would vote for Arwen over Galadriel.

[redline2200]

Originally posted by amerxtremist
strange how you could forget gil-galad or elbereth. Gil Galad:Elven King wouldve gotten my vote.

Wait a minute isn't Elbereth of the race of Valar? There are tremdous differences between a Vala and an elf!

[BlackCaptain]

Eareindil!!!

But i supose he's only half elf...

Nevnarion (my elf name) is cool...

But in the end, I'd say Feanor is most important, seeing as how he created the Sillmarills, and keeping light left in the world.

Good question... u got me thinkin...

[agarwaen]

My favorite was always Ecthelion, Captain of Gondolin :)

But I voted for Fingolfin

[Beleg]

I think it should be Galadriel, for J.R.R mentioned more then once that Galadriel was the greatest of Noldor, save perhaps after Feanor, but wiser then him and more learned in wisdom.

But sometimes the heart makes its veiws heard,
I offcourse voted for "the friend of men" Felagund.

[Orodreth]

I didn't see Orodreth on that list. Or Finarfin for that matter. But I must admit Cirdan was really cool. I mean, he's only the oldest elf in ME!

[Nóm]

Ah... Finrod got another vote :). I am so glad. It has been too long since someone has voted for him. Just 29 behind Feanor. How could it be that Finrod has only 25% of the votes that Feanor has.

[Beleg]

Yes, i am still shocked that Finrod got so less Votes! cmo'n Where are all the edain? And i am even more surprised that Fingon didn't get a single vote. Don't you think that his act of freeing Meadhros was a valiant one?

[Lasgalen]

I voted for Feanor. He is not my favorite Elf (he slew my kin at Alqualonde). But this is a poll of the greatest Elf, not favorite. He made the Silmarils which no one else could have done. He improved Rumil's work. He had the courage to stand up for what he believed. He made some bad choices, but never did he make them out of cowardice.

-Lasgalen

[Finduilas]

Yes,Feanor surely deserves to be called the Greatest although we have as much arguments to call him the least heroic and great elf.

[Maeglin]

Someone vote for Fingon so he doesn't have to without a vote! I already voted so I can't, but have pity on him!

My Thousandth post, yayyyy!!!!:D

[Lasgalen]

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
Someone vote for Fingon so he doesn't have to without a vote! I already voted so I can't, but have pity on him!


I already voted, too. But I agree Fingon deserves to have a vote. Actually he deserves more votes than Arwen. Where are the Fingon supporters? (even if he wasn't as great as Feanor).

-Lasgalen

[Beleg]

Poor Fingon! I was just reareading the passage about The battle of Un-numbered tears when i realized that Fingon actually fought with Gothmog, but these Balrogs are petty Ch