Who is the greatest elf ever?

[Gil-Galad]

I wonder who is the greatest elf?There're many elves who do so many things which deserve to be remember but who is the greatest elf ever?Why?

ops it should be Fingon,sorry:(

[Rangerdave]

Well, I think we all know who my vote would be. and its not that youngster Arwen.

Why are there no female Elves on the list? Is this just an oversite or a you secretly a male chauvanist orc? Just kidding.

Good poll anyway
RD

[HLGStrider]

I'm not usually one to be politically correct, but I think there is a serious error here in favor of the males!!! WHAT ABOUT LUTHIEN? ARWEN? GALADRIEL?

I was going to vote for Luthian... Or does she not count because she bacame mortal?

RD and I posted Simulataneously apparently, but see!!! I have allies!!! I vote for Luthien... Who'd you vote for RD? or who would you?

Perhaps he was thinking warrior elves... In that case, I didn't see Legolas.

Or what about Findulas who ended up dead because of Turin? There are a lot of good choices...

I am not voting just yet cause maybe you will redo it so their will be Luthien, but of the choices above I like Elrond... who isn't really an elf, is he, because he was so good to my dear Aragorn... despite their few falling outs.

[Anamatar IV]

strange how you could forget gil-galad or elbereth. Gil Galad:Elven King wouldve gotten my vote.

[Legolam]

Just wait till Maedhros gets here! Ah, I see another Feanor argument starting up again, and this time I'm staying WELL out of it! ;)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Luthien was also part maia. But Feanor was definitley the most brilliant child of iluvatar. As the sil says. Some of his deeds weren't honorable but he was still the only person that could get them to happen. He was the most brilliant and then Galadriel it was said. Fingolfin was pretty good to.

[Turgon]

I voted for me!!! Cunning eh?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Turgon
I voted for me!!! Cunning eh?



Yes!:cool: :D. Why wasn't i there Gil-Galad??:D :) :cool: :D

[Tar-Elenion]

Luthien Tinuviel.

[HLGStrider]

Still no Luthien... I give up... Elrond it is!!! Though Luthien is as much an elf as him despite that she is half Maia, he is half human or something like that... isn't he?

[Maedhros]

Pinch me, i must be dreaming. I'm not alone in my thought that Feanor is the greatest elf to ever lived. Common Grond, admit it, he's definitely your favorite elf.;)
and this time I'm staying WELL out of it
This is a discussion forum Legolam, you should state your opinion and don't worry what others think about it. Go ahead and post, the more people involved, the better the argument.;)

[Bucky]

Maedhros & Grond:

I must have missed most of your debate, but I get the idea......

Here is a 'fig leaf' (peace offering) for both of you:

Greatest of the Eldar - Feanor (JRR says so himself)
Biggest jerk among the Eldar - Feanor (Read the Silmarillion)


On the subject of Elrond & Luthien not really being Elves, yes they are, 100%.

Melian, Luthien's mother, took on the form of an Elf to wed Thingol.
The only possibility of Maia type power she posesses is hiding or changing shape. But, Finrod did that too, & he was 100% Elf in terms of lineage.

Luthien, must have had extra power via Melian, but, she wasn't even Caliquendi.

Elrond, he was Half-elven, but chose to be 'accounted among the firstborn'. So, he's an elf just as much as his brother, Elros chose to be Man & died accordingly.

BTW, I voted for Feanor.

[Gil-Galad]

I'm sorry that Luthien is not in the poll but as you can see there're many elves which deserve to be said they're the greatest.I just choose some of them who really did great things.
In my view the greatest elf of all is Feanor.He makes the silmarils and nobody has done something like them.I also think he is the greatest cause only a great person can make Noldors follow him.In fact does anyone can convice them that they should leave Valinor?Nobody,but Feanor!
He is so convincing that all Noldors have followed him.Feanor's anger is so strong that he believes ha can kill Morgoth,who's so is so strong as Manve.
I realize I can't convince that I'm right but I still think that all adventures,great events,curses,and tragedies are because of Feanor.His talent,his anger and will.

[Grond]

Both Bucky and Gil-galad supporting your cause, Maedhros. You must be very happy. :);)

[Maedhros]

In my view the greatest elf of all is Feanor
Agree.
I realize I can't convince that I'm right
You have definitely convinced me.;) And i'm sure that you have convinced Ancalagon and Grond.

[Grond]

You know that I can't let it end there. Let me put it to you this way.

Greatest Elf in Valinor = Feanor

Greatest Elf in Middle-earth = Fingolfin
Least Elf in Middle-earth = Feanor.

:)

[HLGStrider]

Elgee says indignantly... "LUTHIEN DID GREAT THINGS!!!"

Okay, so wasn't as historically significant as Feanor, but she was at least as great as a few of the others you have up there... she got the Silmaril with Beren's help... She made Morgoth cry or fall asleep or something by singing... she knocked down Sauron's tower!!! come on...

[Maedhros]

You know that I can't let it end there.
Greatest Elf in Valinor = Feanor
Agree.
Greatest Elf in Middle-earth = Fingolfin
Luthien confronted Morgoth one on one and lived, so i will go with Luthien.
Least Elf in Middle-earth = Feanor
I would say that it was either Eol or Maeglin. Feanor died in an honorably way fighting Balrogs.

[Grond]

If you're willing to concede that Feanor was not the greatest elf in ME then I'm willing to go with your choices of Luthien as Best and Eol as worst. :)

Woo hoo!! 1900 posts. ;)

[Maedhros]

Grond, oh mighty hammer of the Underground, we have a deal.

[BelDain]

Originally posted by Grond
Least Elf in Middle-earth = Feanor.

Wouldn't the least Elf be one who never got mentioned at all?

[HLGStrider]

QUOTE]I would say that it was either Eol or Maeglin. Feanor died in an honorably way fighting Balrogs.[/QUOTE]

I always felt sort of sorry for Maeglin... for one thing he reminded me of a friend... up until he went bad, and I wish I could've been there to save him... I think he just needed a gentle touch, poor fellow... Sad sad sad...

[Ancalagon]

Finrod Felagund. No Question.

[Maedhros]

Funny, but no one has said that Finarfin was the greatest elf. Hmmmmm. I wonder why?

[Grond]

Err... Umm... Maedhros, Finarfin would not have been the Greatest Elf... he would have been the Elf with the most common sense and intelligence. After all, Feanor = dead, Fingolfin = dead, Sons of Feanor = dead. Sons of Fingolfin = dead. Sons of Finarfin = dead. Finarfin = still alive and living in peace, harmony and love in Valinor. :)

[Bucky]

>>>>Finarfin would not have been the Greatest Elf... he would have been the Elf with the most common sense and intelligence. After all, Feanor = dead, Fingolfin = dead, Sons of Feanor = dead. Sons of Fingolfin = dead. Sons of Finarfin = dead. Finarfin = still alive and living in peace, harmony and love in Valinor.

Yup.
Or, 'Best Use Long-term Of The Talents Given Him'.

BTW, Maglor may still be out there singing somewhere........

[Maedhros]

Finarfin = still alive and living in peace, harmony and love in Valinor.
Or almost as boring as a Vanyar elf.

[Ancalagon]

I just can't get my head around this Feanor business. How can one who was single-handedly responsible for the greatest exodus, pain and suffering brought upon a race be considered great. Responsible for the first inter-racial deaths among Elven peoples, and a doom so depressive that no amount of Prozac could remove it. For the endless pursuit of Silmarils that even though beatiful, were the single most decisive reason why anyone who came near one ended up dead or loosing most of their friends and family, or at the very least a hand!

'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar Leith from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond |man ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be; by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world an with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.

There is something in those words.....hmmm, what is it? Oooh, Ooooh, that would be the sound of Mandos telling me that my life for the next age would be absolute misery. Thanks Feanor....you dumbass!

[chrysophalax]

Bravo, Ancalagon! We dragons never mince words! While I admire many traits of Feanor's, the things I could never stomach were his pride and pigheadedness. His seeming insensibility to the fact that his actions were causing others great suffering never appeared to weigh greatly on his conscience.

[Maedhros]

I just can't get my head around this Feanor business. How can one who was single-handedly responsible for the greatest exodus, pain and suffering brought upon a race be considered great.
He's not just great, he's one a whole new level of greatness if you compare him to other elves. His genius is "sans pareil". He dared to be different, he dared to do what he thought he should do, and he never back up or gave up. He was a revolutionary at the windows of Heaven. Never, will there ever be someone like him.
Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.
Thanks Feanor....you dumbass!
Now, we don't have to use bad language.
His seeming insensibility to the fact that his actions were causing others great suffering never appeared to weigh greatly on his conscience.
He did as he thought he should.

[Ancalagon]

List 3 great people in history and tell me why you think they are great. If I can summise from that what your opinion is of greatness I may actually be able to fathom your reasoning for finding Feanor great.

[chrysophalax]

And as we all know, that doesn't make it right!Or does "right" even enter into it?

As to his "daring to be different", that has been my view re: Melkor,who could have learned something in the pride category from Feanor.

[Maedhros]

Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host
I have stated my definition of greatness in another thread. Here it is:
greatness: adj.
1. Of outstanding significance or importance: a great work of art.
2. Superior in quality or character; noble
3. Powerful; influential.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
The definition that I'm using is # 1 and 3. If we were using definiton # 2 then, i would say that his works were far superior in quality in regards to any other elf, yet he was not noble in the end.
Still, he had no rival in his works or skill of hand and mind.
Guess you said this:
"Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would-to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower"

[Grond]

Oh boy!! A whole new level of greatness. He dared to be different. Let's see... you're right. No Elf ever murdered another until Feanor and the Teleri. Let's see... you're right. No Elf ever blatantly disregarded the advice of the Valar before Feanor snubbed his nose at them as he left. Let's see... you're right. No elf ever thought more of himself than did Feanor as he left Valinor with a head the size of the Tower of London.

Maedhros, you constantly pick at Finarfin for not following the majority of his people to Middle-earth; yet you never blame Feanor for leading them there in the first place. Finarfin's motives were selfless and thinking of the people who didn't want to depart Valinor in the end. Feanor's motives were selfish and he gave no thought at all to his people... only to his own selfish pride and his own selfish quest for vengeance and the return of his stolen property. His truest character is revealed in the fact that he began this whole debacle for his lost precious Silmarils. (Yes... he used to sit in his halls and gloat over his three Preciouses. Where have we heard that before?:)) So he led his people into great danger for some things. Great??? Wrong!!!

And before you get into that whole vengeance for Daddy thing, the Oath he and his sons swore said nothing about old DaddyO. ;)

[Maedhros]

No Elf ever blatantly disregarded the advice of the Valar before Feanor snubbed his nose at them as he left.
I thought that was pretty cool.
'Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!'
No elf ever thought more of himself than did Feanor as he left Valinor with a head the size of the Tower of London.
Could it be because he was the only elf genius in Valinor?Finarfin's motives were selfless and thinking of the people who didn't want to depart Valinor in the end.
Who just happened to be the minority.
And before you get into that whole vengeance for Daddy thing, the Oath he and his sons swore said nothing about old DaddyO.
Hmmmm. Grond, you forget that his Daddy was the High King of the Noldor.

[Turgon]

Hmmmm. Grond, you forget that his Daddy was the High King of the Noldor.
Funny then how none of his sons were... perhaps the majority of the Noldor in Middle-Earth found something wrong with leadership of the House of Feanor...

[Grond]

I thought that was pretty cool.I didn't. :)Could it be because he was the only elf genius in Valinor?No!Who just happened to be the minority.He didn't seek to disuade those that wanted to go, he sought to lead those that didn't.Hmmmm. Grond, you forget that his Daddy was the High King of the Noldor. I remember it quite well. And had he cared so much for his father then "VENGEANCE FOR HIS DEATH" would have been the foremost topic in the Oath.

You just can't handle the truth which is that my boss Melkor played Feanor like a Stradivarius and got him to do exactly what he wanted him to do. Feanor succombed to Melkor's plan to a Tee. The only thing old Melkor didn't count on was the Valar coming again at Earendil's request.

[Maedhros]

No!
Ok, then. Name other genius in Valinor besides Feanor.
He didn't seek to disuade those that wanted to go, he sought to lead those that didn't.
Those that stayed didn't need leading. They had the protection of the Valar. Leading in going home again?
I remember it quite well. And had he cared so much for his father then "VENGEANCE FOR HIS DEATH" would have been the foremost topic in the Oath.
His wrath and his hate were given most to Morgoth, and yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth himself; but he was distraught with grief for the slaying of his father, and with anguish for the rape of the Silmarils. He claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finwë was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar.
Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father's slayer and of the thief of my treasure. Yet I am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your King? And what else have ye not lost, cooped here in a narrow land between the mountains and the sea?
Feanor succombed to Melkor's plan to a Tee.
He never gave up.

[Maedhros]

Funny then how none of his sons were... perhaps the majority of the Noldor in Middle-Earth found something wrong with leadership of the House of Feanor...
I don't understand what this means.:confused:

[Turgon]

Hmmmm. Grond, you forget that his Daddy was the High King of the Noldor.
Funny then how none of his (Feanor's) sons were (High-King)... perhaps the majority of the Noldor in Middle-Earth found something wrong with leadership of the House of Feanor...

Judging by the reaction of his peers, the Majority of the Noldor in Beleriand would seem to disagree that Feanor was the Greatest Elf in Middle-Earthdom... why else would the House of Feanor be disinherited from their birthright... Of course Feanor was the greatest of the Children of Illuvatar, but I'm afraid it's a title he gave up the moment he decided that listening to Melkor would be a better idea than sitting at home in his workshop making pretty little trinkets...

[Maedhros]

why else would the House of Feanor be disinherited from their birthright...
They weren't dishinherited. I gave my claim up.
For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwë
but I'm afraid it's a title he gave up the moment he decided that listening to Melkor would be a better idea than sitting at home in his workshop making pretty little trinkets
Feanor was the target of the lies of Melkor. Do you know why? It's because he was the only one who made new things and didn't sit in the sun and dance and sing all day.
and Melkor laughed in his secrecy, for to that mark his lies had been addressed, hating Fëanor above all, and lusting ever for the Silmarils.
For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.

[Turgon]

They weren't dishinherited. I gave my claim up.
Sure, like you had a choice... more of a face saving exersize...

Feanor was the target of the lies of Melkor. Do you know why? It's because he was the only one who made new things and didn't sit in the sun and dance and sing all day.

The only one? really?
but the Noldor were beloved of Aule, and he and his people came often among them. Great became their knowledge and their skill; yet even greater was their thirst for knowledge; and in many things they soon surpassed their teachers...
...and they are (the Noldor) the most skilled of the Elves; and in their own fashion according to the gifts which Illuvatar gave them, they added much to his teachings, delighting in tongues and in scripts, and in the figures of broidery, of drawing, and of carving.
They not He. Or did Feanor build all the wonders of Arda on his own...?
Did not Turgon himself design the fair city of Gondolin, and fashion Belthil and Glingal the very Image of the Two trees himself - not the least of his deeds...

[HLGStrider]

I will quote my brother on what he says is the most insightful thing in the world "The essence of elaborate Grecian willow pillars incognito servitude!"

That is a direct quote... my brother is a nut.

I like Luthien because she is, for one thing, a romantic character, for another she is a girl who goes on adventures without loosing her femininity (not a warrior princess). She can sing down a tower or Morgoth. She was loyal. She was noble enough to give up immortality. She love Beren, and I can't imagine a greater elf.

did I mention that she was beautiful and could grow her hair out REALLY long. talk about letting your hair hang down...

[Maedhros]

...and they are (the Noldor) the most skilled of the Elves; and in their own fashion according to the gifts which Illuvatar gave them, they added much to his teachings, delighting in tongues and in scripts, and in the figures of broidery, of drawing, and of carving.
And who was the best among them. Hmmm. Was it Feanor.
He became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand. In his youth, bettering the work of Rúmil, he devised those letters which bear his name, and which the Eldar used ever after; and he it was who, first of the Noldor, discovered how gems greater and brighter than those of the earth might be made with skill. The first gems that Fëanor made were white and colourless, but being set under starlight they would blaze with blue and silver fires brighter than Helluin; and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwë. Seldom were the hands and mind of Fëanor at rest.
Need i say more.
Did not Turgon himself design the fair city of Gondolin, and fashion Belthil and Glingal the very Image of the Two trees himself - not the least of his deeds...
Notice that they were a mere reflection of Tirion in Tuná and a copy of the trees. He didn't create anything new or original. The silmarils were a combination of the blended light of the trees, you might say that they were a copy of the trees, but the Palantiri were something truly new and innovative.
It's hard to drum an idea into someone who has made their mind up and it is apparent that nothing anyone can say or do will change good Madhros' mind on this one.
Or one could say that there's nothing that i could say to change your mind Grond.

[Turgon]

Of course Feanor was the best of the Noldor craftsman, in fact that's the only thing he's got going for him in the greatest elf stakes... but he was not the only Noldor craftsman, eh? He lacked nobility, foresight, wisdom, magnanimity, and so can never be ranked among the truely great. Now Turgon was an Elf one could really admire... a craftsman, a statesman, a warrior... and that Morgoth fellow was always scared of him... Go Turgon!!!

[Maedhros]

Now Turgon was an Elf one could really admire... a craftsman, a statesman, a warrior
Who just happened to hide in Gondolin. Hmmmm.
Feanor is in a class above the rest of the Elves.
In that time were made those things that afterwards were most renowned of all the works of the Elves. For Fëanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.
He had no real rival. Olorin even admired him:
Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would-to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!' He sighed and fell silent.
Interesting that he didn't mention Turgon or any other craftsmen, because when they were in Valinor they really didn't create anything innovative. He was a revolutionary at the windows of Heaven.

[Turgon]

Feanor's Greatness...?
mmm...

Greatness: adj.
1. Of outstanding significance or importance: a great work of art.
2. Superior in quality or character; noble
3. Powerful; influential.

I guess two out of three ain't bad...

Turgon's Greatness...?
mmm...

Three out of three... Go Turgon!!!

[Maedhros]

Three out of three... Go Turgon!!!
Really Turgon, did he create something new? No. Did he hid in Gondolin and not like Fingon that stayed and fight to the death.

[Turgon]

Did he create something new...? How about a legendary city? Did he hide in Gondolin? Should he have stayed at the battle of Unnumbered Tears and died a pointless death? He was called Turgon the Wise, not Turgon the Foolish.
Then Hurin spoke to Turgon, saying 'Go now, lord, while time there is! For in you lies the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his Heart.'
and
Then Huor spoke...'This I say to you lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise...'

[Maedhros]

He was called Turgon the Wise, not Turgon the Foolish.
Yet he in the end, he was overrun by his pride and forsook the advice of Ulmo. He wasn't that Wise in the End.
But really, Fingon IMHO, was a better king and elf than Turgon.

[Grond]

I've decided that the greatest elf ever is Ghan-Buri-Ghan. I just discovered that through a fifth cousin 45 times removed on his mother's side, he is related to Celeborn through a fling he had with one of the mountain women about 2000 years before.

Ghan-Buri-Ghan, the man who delivered the Riders of Rohan to the Pelannor and thus delivered the city of Minas Tirith and thus allowed the Return of the King to occur. Go Ghan!! Go Ghan!!!!

[Elfarmari]

I'm very tempted to agree with Grond. . .

I'd vote for Luthien Tinuviel. She was the only elf to bring down Melkor (at least temporarily). Fingolfin wounded him, but Luthien suceeded in putting Melkor and all his minions to sleep. She would have gotten away with it, too, if Beren hadn't gotten greedy and woke them all up with his sword.

[HLGStrider]

Beren wasn't greedy... that was the whole reason they were there... over achieving maybe, but not greedy. I always said the darn jewels were cursed, even if Feanor did make them and like them so much...

[Melian]

And lo!I'm the only one who voted Cirdan!He's the only bearded Elf,for God's sake!Doesn't it mean something?
And what about Gil-Galad?You dropped it out of modesty,or your question should be interpreted "Who's the second greatest Elf ever"?:)

[Gil-Galad]

I would say that Melian is right.I didn't write Gil-Galad,because it's obvious,I'm the greatest!The poll was actually who's the second greatest elf ever....any questions?!:cool:
If I have to be serious I don't thing Luthien is the greatest.Well,she did these things only because of her love and later she became mortal......
At the same time Feanor is the elf who changed the history of elves who followed him.Because of his anger and strong will for having back the silmarils and killing Melkor,great things happened later.One of those things is the legend for Luthien and Beren.

[Elfarmari]

I was being a little sarcastic about Beren being greedy, I probably should have indicated that.
Because of his anger and strong will for having back the silmarils and killing Melkor,great things happened later.One of those things is the legend for Luthien and Beren.
true, I wasn't thinking of that. If it was not for Feanor the Nolder would not have come to Middle Earth to regain the silmarils, and the entire history we love debating probably would not have happened. If you take greatest to mean influential, I will have to chane my answer to Feanor.

[BelDain]

The greatest, most noble of all the Eldar is Ingwe, Lord of the Vanyar and High King of all the First-born Children of Iluvatar.

[Ancalagon]

Why is that BelDain?

[Maedhros]

The greatest, most noble of all the Eldar is Ingwe
Show me an example of his generosity and nobility. The Greatest he is not. Feanor = Greatest of the Children of Illuvatar.
Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.

[Ancalagon]

I have voted for Finrod Felagund, The Faithful. Why?

Feanors shameful act of the burning of the ships at Drengist made others greater than he. For those of the Noldor who made the perilous crossing of the Helcaraxe, were considered particpants of the single, greatest deed of the Noldor, indeed all Elves. Fingolfin and his Sons, Finrod and Galadriel, all of whom can be counted greater than Feanor for this journey alone. Let me quote the great words of Feanor upon the shores;

Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss: needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn!'

Though it must be stated also;
Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or woe

Up to this point Feanor had achieved nothing, save make jewels that he greedily desired for himself, he was responsible for the slayings at Aqualonde, for his disregard of the Valar, the Doom of the Noldor, The oath that cursed all who swore it and the burning of the ships at the Firth of Drengist. Feanor was like the General who sends his men to the slaughter without feeling or care, not too disimilar from from the British Generals of the first World War, who had scant regard for the lives of their men. Who is the greater; the General or the Footsoldier?

Yet, it is Finrod whom I seek to persuade you all of his greatness. Greatness being not the single deed or most valiant, but the greatest being that persons overall impact and ability, that persons selflessness especially having not sworn the oath for the return of the Silmarils, but bound by the Doom upon him.

vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, who so should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

It was Finrod who first of the exiles sought the help of The Dwarves in the making of Nargothrond, and recieved the Nauglamir as a gift. This in itself was the act of an Elder Statesman, beyond that of any of his people.
Thus the realm of Finrod was the greatest by far, though he was the youngest of the great lords of the Noldor

Finrod, ever the statesman took the secondborn to his heart, thus giving rise to the greatest of the Edain, The House of Beor;
Long Felagund watched them, and love for them stirred in his heart; but he remained hidden in the trees until they had all fallen asleep. Then he went among the sleeping people, and sat beside their dying fire where none kept watch; and he took up a rude harp which Bëor had laid aside, and he played music upon it such as the ears of Men had not heard; for they had as yet not teachers in the art, save only the Dark Elves in the wild lands.

Yet, the help extended to Beren by Finrod, his loyalty to his oath to the House of Beor and Barahir, the fact he relinquished Nargothrond to assist Beren in retrieving a Silmaril for the love of Luthien, the battle with Sauron and with his last breath and strength saving Beren from certain death.

But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death. Then he spoke to Beren, saying: 'I go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the Mountains of Aman. It will be long ere I am seen among the Noldor again; and it may be that we shall not meet a second time in death of life, for the fates of our kindreds are apart. Farewell!' He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë, redeemed his oath;

Finrod Felagund was blessed with a wisdom, kindness, valour, loyalty and vision that no other Elf did have in Middle-Earth. Greatness comes from that which to many seems insignificant, yet in reality is beyond the comprehension of those blinded by deeds of of the arrogant fool.

That man is great, and he alone,
Who serves a greatness not his own,
For neither praise nor pelf:
Content to know and be unknown:
Whole within himself - Owen Meredith, A Great Man

[Ancalagon]

Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.

This quote does not make Feanor great, because even though he was responsible for the Doom laid upon them, it was the remaining Noldor who were responsible for 'their greatest renown' and 'their most grevious woe'. 'Their' in this case is the Noldor, not Feanor. Mighty does not equate to being great.

Be not afraid of greatness; some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon 'em. - Shakespeare, Twelfth Night.

I believe the Noldor had greatness thrust upon them, in spite of the woe that Feanor bequeathed them.

[Maedhros]

Feanor was like the General who sends his men to the slaughter without feeling or care, not too disimilar from from the British Generals of the first World War, who had scant regard for the lives of their men. Who is the greater; the General or the Footsoldier?
Wrong analogy. The general lead from behind while Feanaro does not. They were victorious in the second battle.
. For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him.
I just don't see him in the back leading the battle but fighting head on with his enemies. You might say that his actions were not tactically sound, but your analogy is WRONG.
but the greatest being that persons overall impact and ability, that persons selflessness especially having not sworn the oath for the return of the Silmarils, but bound by the Doom upon him.
It's funny that you mention Finrod and not Finarfin. Haven't people argued that because he stayed in Valinor and followed his principles makes him honorable and great.
It was Finrod who first of the exiles sought the help of The Dwarves in the making of Nargothrond, and recieved the Nauglamir as a gift. This in itself was the act of an Elder Statesman, beyond that of any of his people.
Ok.
Finrod Felagund was blessed with a wisdom, kindness, valour, loyalty and vision that no other Elf did have in Middle-Earth. Greatness comes from that which to many seems insignificant, yet in reality is beyond the comprehension of those blinded by deeds of of the arrogant fool.
So the ones who don't think that FF is the greatest are blind. If FF had that great wisdom, then why didn't he did as his father Finarfin and stayed in Valinor?
The arrogant fool as you call Feanor is simply the one who stood above the rest. He refomed the tengwar before Melkor was released. He created new things. He was a genius. He had the character to follow his will to the end. His actions, but good and bad are in total unparrarel by any elf ever. Definitely, he was not a goody two shoes. He was simply the greatest.;)
I believe the Noldor had greatness thrust upon them, in spite of the woe that Feanor bequeathed them.
The Noldor were the most valorous and great elves, yet Feanor was the greatest among them.

[Grond]

Maedhros... excuse me please!! How can anyone who heartlessly murders their kin be great? Feanor was the Greatest of the Noldor before the Oath. He was simply the Greatest Murderer of innocent Teleri after the Oath.

I cannot and will not concede that any murderer is great. And before you start throwing Fingolfin and Finarfin in the mix, you know that they came upon Feanor's battle seeing their own kin under attack. So they thought they were defending their own and thus are not deemed murderers.

Murderers are not great. Feanor is not great after Aqualonde.

*dripping with sarcasm*Oh wait. I forgot. If the ignorant Teleri had just agreed to transport Feanor's Party across, Feanor wouldn't have needed to murder them. So it is the Teleri's fault after all. Right??*dripping with sarcasm*

[ReadWryt]

Personally, I like that little guy that lives in the tree with his buddies and bakes those lovely fudge cookies I'm addicted to...He's my favorite elf...:)

[Maedhros]

I cannot and will not concede that any murderer is great.
Grond, are you tricksy? First you say one thing and then another.
Greatest Elf in Valinor = Feanor
Hmmmmmmm. Alqualonde is a part of Valinor Grond.
And before you start throwing Fingolfin and Finarfin in the mix, you know that they came upon Feanor's battle seeing their own kin under attack. So they thought they were defending their own and thus are not deemed murderers.
Anticipating my posts, I'm honored.;)
I forgot. If the ignorant Teleri had just agreed to transport Feanor's Party across, Feanor wouldn't have needed to murder them. So it is the Teleri's fault after all.
How about this instead. If the Valar had not interfered in the Noldorian Royal house incident between Feanor and Fingolfin, (that should have been handled by Finwe the King and their father. Isn't it the father and king duty to attend to bussiness that happens in the house of the King). Feanor would have not been banished by the Valar to Formenos and there would have been more difficult to slay Finwe in Tirion rather than in Formenos.
Is it tricksy my precioussssssssssss, I bet it would taste deliciousssssssssssssss.

[Grond]

And AT ONE TIME Feanor was the Greatest Elf in Valinor. The key word being was. There was still never another Elf that was his equal when he was at his peak. The key word being peak. My most recent quote on the matter isMurderers are not great. Feanor is not great after Aqualonde.The qualifier here is after Aqualonde. If you wish for me to retract my statement because of semantics, I will. I should have stated, "Feanor was the greatest Elf in Valinor before the kinslaying of Aqualonde."

I assure you that I was not trying to be tricksy. I just thought you would understand my post and my logic. (And I think you did. You are just so desperate to win a point that you'll take any jab.);)

[Maedhros]

You are just so desperate to win a point that you'll take any jab.
Ouch.
Hmmmm. Have you seen the Poll, guess who's winning.;)

[Turgon]

Yeah, Maedhros, how have you managed to vote nine times?;)

[Maedhros]

Still, i cannot believe that no one has given my friend Fingon the Valiant a vote. He it was who made the most noble and selfless deed in the whole Silmarillion.

[Turgon]

If only you knew, Maedhros, if only you knew!!! Ever wondered what Fingon did with that severed hand of yours? Ever wondered why your stump starts itching in the middle of the night? Hehehe! (Ahem!ashtray!)

[Maedhros]

Hmmmmm. So that Turgon is definitely trickssssssssssssy.
But seriously:
Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.
I wonder what this means.;)

[Tar-Elenion]

Quothe JRR Tolkien, the Shiboleth of Feanor, PoME, endnote 14:
"14. Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves."

[Grond]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Quothe JRR Tolkien, the Shiboleth of Feanor, PoME, endnote 14:
"14. Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves." Yes Tar-Elenion, but those words were written by JRRT and what does he know? ;)

[Maedhros]

Hmmmmmm. Since I have not the PoME book, I cannot comment on that. I personally would take this serioulsy, but i would put more emphasis in the Silmarillion. Although i have said that Luthien was the greatest elf in ME.

Yet I believe that Feanor in the end had kind of lost his balance (lies of Melkor) yet his skills were unmatched.

Grond, aren't you ashamed that it wasn't you or Ancalagon that came with that quote.;)

[Gil-Galad]

Well,everyone knows Feanor did awful things like kiling another elves.But no one is perfect.As a matter of fact all the other high-kings are almost perfect persons.That makes Feanor really different from all the others.In fact everyone makes bad,really bad things,but Feanor make them with aim-to have back the silmarils and kill Morgoth.I just wonder who would leave Valinor and fight with Morgoth if it wasn't Feanor?

[Maedhros]

Well Grond. There is someone who is defendind Feanor, and it's not me.

[Ithrynluin]

Galadriel is my personal favourite. Feanor seems to be the gratest elf for making the Silmarils and the Palantiri, but his later actions and arrogance put him at the bottom of this list.
Many others are great also : Elrond, Luthien, Cirdan, Finrod...

[Gil-Galad]

ithrynluin,
the fact that Feanor has so much negative features makes him the greatest.There isn't a perfect hero.The evil is everywhere,even after Sauron destroyed the two trees and run out of Valinor a small part of his evil was there.I mean that we shouldn'd note down only the negative things,we should compare the elves more generally,what every of them did during his life.Did anybody oppose the Valar and leave Valinor,but Feanor.Who else,except Finrod and Feanor,was so brave to stand in front of Melkor?

[Maedhros]

I agree with Gil galad, about Feanor being the greatest.
The evil is everywhere,even after Sauron destroyed the two trees and run out of Valinor a small part of his evil was there.
I think you mean Morgoth and Ungolianth.
Who else,except Finrod and Feanor,was so brave to stand in front of Melkor?
Can you explain this.

[chrysophalax]

Yes. What about Luthien?

[HLGStrider]

Exactly what I said several times a long time ago before I gave up and voted for Elrond because he was nice to my Strider... not on any other merits. He was much less of an elf than Luthien.

[Aredhel]

I must say Feanor was the greatest elf ever and always will be. He created the Silmarils, and he had great skill with that kind of thing.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
ithrynluin,
the fact that Feanor has so much negative features makes him the greatest.There isn't a perfect hero.The evil is everywhere,even after Sauron destroyed the two trees and run out of Valinor a small part of his evil was there.I mean that we shouldn'd note down only the negative things,we should compare the elves more generally,what every of them did during his life.Did anybody oppose the Valar and leave Valinor,but Feanor.Who else,except Finrod and Feanor,was so brave to stand in front of Melkor?

Gil-Galad,
I'm not looking for a perfect hero. Perfection is impossible(no, Manwë is not perfect in my mind) and moreover, boring! ;)
Upon my first rading of the Sil, I thought Fëanor was brilliant, not just for creating the Silmarils, but for being so valiant to stand up to the "Gods" themselves. However, as the story progressed, the majesty and nobility of Fëanor diminished rapidly. Rebelling against the Valar is one thing, but the slaying of one's own kin is inexcusable, no matter how dear the Silmarils were to him and his sons! The Silmarils were his and he had the right to claim them (from Melko) but the ships of the Teleri were not his to take by force! Why, if he desired the Silmarils THAT much he could've taken the road through Helcaraxë.
Anyway, to wrap up this rambling:) I admire and value the inner beauty,wisdom and strength of a particular elf above anything else and that's why I chose Galadriel...

[Gil-Galad]

Well...
it's my mistake I mean Feanor and Fingolfin ...ops.Only they stand in front of Morgoth/Melkor.So the greatest elf should be one of them that means Feanor is the greatest.:p

[Tar-Elenion]

Luthien stood in front of Morgoth, and unlike Fingolfin (or Feanor) she 'defeated' him.

[Gil-Galad]

Tar-Eleinion,
all that love!
Can't we be more realistic and not so romantic.What did she do?Something because of her love,but that is almost nothing for the whole history of ME,just a nice legend about the power of love.Nothing more.It hasn't change the development of elves and people ,their fate etc... .While Feanor changes everything.

ithrynluin,
about Galdriel:
She wasn't allowed to go back in Valinor because of her proudness.As a matter of fact she desired to be a queen of elves in Arda to rule them as she wants.But in fact she did nothing,just living in ME.She just desired for power that's why she followed the Noldors

[7doubles]

although i voted for fingelfin i believe Illwe is highest in reverence

[Tar-Elenion]

Really Gil-Galad;),
More realistic? Hmm...
Luthien through her actions in aiding Beren succeeds where armies and warriors failed in 'defeating' Morgoth and thus gains a Silmaril, which eventually aids Earendil in passing into Aman and gaining succor for the Elves and Men in Beleriand. Luthien (with Huan) was also responsible for Sauron's first overthrow at Tol Sirion.
Perhaps a quote from the Athrabeth is in order "The grief of Luthien [after the death of Beren] was so great that according to the Eldar it moved the pity of even Mandos the Unmoved. Beren and Luthien together had achieved the greatest of all the deeds against Melkor: regaining one of the Silmarils. Luthien was not of the Noldor but daughter of Thingol (of the Teleri), and her mother Melian was 'divine', a maia (one of the minor members of the spirit-race of the Valar). Thus from the union of Luthien and Beren which was made possible by their return, the infusion of a 'divine' and an Elvish strain into Mankind was to be brought about, providing a link between Mankind and the Elder World, after the establishment of the Dominion of Men." JRRT refers to this union as "part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" (L. 153).
Of course it is JRRT who writes that Luthien is the greatest of all the Eldar, noting that she is greater than both Feanor and Galadriel. I just happen to agree with him.

[Ithrynluin]

**She wasn't allowed to go back in Valinor because of her proudness.**
WRONG.She wasn't allowed to go back to Valinor BECAUSE OF FOLLOWING Fëanor and thus falling under the ban of the Valar/The Curse of the Noldor.After the end of the First Age,the ban was lifted from all the Noldor, but she rejected it. If you think Galadriel wasn't worth much/did nothing, how about this:
- "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor,except Fëanor MAYBE,though she was wiser than he,and her wisdom increased with the long years" (Unfinished tales, The history of Celeborn and Galadriel)
- In the second age, she recognized Sauron and rejected him, and he hated and feared her more than anyone of the Eldar. Hmmm,Gil-Galad,I wonder why Sauron the Maia, the second Dark Lord,greatest servant of Melkor(see where I'm going with this?), feared poor old Galadriel if she did nothing???
- Do you think the outcome of the War of the Ring would have been the same if Galadriel had walked back to Valinor after the fall of Morgoth? Even as a child she had incredible insight into the minds and hearts of others and it could be said that she knew Sauron's mind to some extent. Maybe she did not return to Valinor because she felt she had some unfinished business ere the end.She perceived that Sauron wasn't vanquished and she contributed a lot to his downfall. I think that neither Frodo nor Sam would have survived the webs of Shelob if it wasn't for the phial of Galadriel(and of course their valour and strength). She also sent Gwaihir the lord of eagles to bring Gandalf from Zirak-Zigil,who then arrived just in time to turn the tides of the war in Rohan.
Galadriel gave invaluable advice and strength of heart to all the members of the fellowship.
And yes, both Galadriel and Fëanor were proud, but in SUCH different ways...

**As a matter of fact she desired to be a queen of elves in Arda to rule them as she wants.**
She desired to create a realm of her own,for like Fëanor, she felt too oppressed by the Valar(which was a lie that Melkor put into their hearts).The way you put it, sounds like she wanted to be a tyrant or something.

Looking forward to your reply, oh Star of Radiance!

[7doubles]

the least of the vanyar was more noble than the higest noldor except fingolfin but he was half vanyar. his mother Indis is Ingwes sister

[Gil-Galad]

Well,as I know Galadriel wasn't allowed to go back in Valinor till all the Noldors were allowed to go back after the War of Wrath.But she didn't go back.I read that thing somewhere in UT and I'll find it soon cause now I don't have enough time.But I'm sure that she refused to co back after The War of Wrath.I believe that Sauron was afraid of Galadriel cause she was the last of the high Noldors.She really was powerful like all Noldors who had come from Valinor in Arda.I think that Sauron realized that elves who were living in Me during The War of The Ring weren't so great,powerful etc...That's why Sauron was afraid of her cause she was the most powerful elf in ME at that time and the last from the high Noldors in Me.

Tar-Elenion,
I think that we can argue till end of days.I still think Feanor is the greatest and then comes probably Luthien and nobodu can change my position cause in my personal view Feanor is the one who set up the beginnig of many great things which happened later and many tragedies,like killing other elves.But you know -different people,different ideas!;)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Tar-Elenion,
I think that we can argue till end of days.I still think Feanor is the greatest and then comes probably Luthien and nobodu can change my position cause in my personal view Feanor is the one who set up the beginnig of many great things which happened later and many tragedies,like killing other elves.But you know -different people,different ideas!;) LOL! You and Maedros need to get together and talk about the greatness of Feanor. What I fail to understand is how anyone can think that a ploter of murder can be the Greatest Elf to ever live. The Teleri did nothing other than say "No!" to Feanor. For saying "No'..... they lost their lives. That just doens't sound too great to me.

[7doubles]

Feanor made more blind mistakes with deadly repercutions then all but melko combind. and all he did or thought or said was cursed because of bitterness over his mothers death. indead indis was the first elve to have ever died of wearyness. Feanor also had a weak and selfish hart in this respect, he twisted all his work to his selfish intent. given time he whould have become as bad as melko in his pride he to would have warred with the gods and man whould be destroied because of melkos first lie. that the gods cheated the elves out of their inheritence of middle earth and given it to man, who whould be easier for the gods to controll. an onslouth of men by elves in that time would wipe out man

[Maedhros]

**She wasn't allowed to go back in Valinor because of her proudness.**
So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever.
There is another version:
The reasons and motives given for Galadriel's remaining in Middle-earth are various. The passage just cited from The Road Goes Ever On says explicitly: "After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."
We can definitely say that Galadriel was very proudful as the rest of the Noldor.

What I fail to understand is how anyone can think that a ploter of murder can be the Greatest Elf to ever live.
He createst the greatest things in ME. Of course he was the greatest, he just was not the "goody two shoes" elf.

[Camille]

where is Luthien!!! she is my pick, risking everything for love and all the Morgoth thing that was amazing!!

Can't we be more realistic and not so romantic.What did she do?Something because of her love,but that is almost nothing for the whole history of ME,just a nice legend about the power of love.Nothing more.It hasn't change the development of elves and people ,their fate etc... .While Feanor changes everything.
Sorry Gil-Galad, but the deeds of Luthien were fundamental for the Sil story, she and Beren took a silmaril form Morgoth, the same Silmaril that took the sindar into the doom of mandos, the same Sil that guide Earendil to Aman. She had an influence..
And Feanor also had it of course, but he was gave the greatest gift and he wasted them!

[Theoden]

GALADRIEL, GALADRIEL!
A QUEEN SHE WAS, AND ONLY SHE!
OH FAIREST ONE, GALADRIEL!
YOU WENT ACROSS THE WESTERN SEA!

[Khamul]

I would have to go with Luthien. What she accomplished was amazing. Few, if any other Elf could come close to this feat.

[Samwise_hero]

I thought Legolas was pretty awesome too but i guess his only part on Middle Earth's history was partially aiding in the destruction of the ring and fighting numerous wars. But other wise Elrond he put up with heaps of stuff and stayed wise the whole time.:rolleyes: There were also heaps of other awesome Elves but i don't know all their names at present so i can't name them all.

[GrrPuppy]

Fingolfin, no question. The most valiant and greatest warrior, no-one else could have wounded Morgoth 7 times and then hack off his foot...Plus he didn't slaughter the Teleri, which is always a plus.


And why does Galadriel have so many votes?

Grr

[Ithrynluin]

Well, Galadriel didn't do any "direct" or "obvious" damage to Morgoth or Sauron but she contributed a lot to the demise of evil as a whole.

[Gil-Galad]

What exactly she did?Just living in Lorien and trying to rebuild something which wasn't a reallity anymore.Her only "plus" is that she helped the fellowship.

[Ithrynluin]

Gil-Galad,
I will not answer such questions again,because I already gave you my reasons as to why I think Galadriel is the greatest.
It is pretty much obvious that I cannot convince you about the greatness of Galadriel and you cannot convince me about Fëanor being the greatest.
So how about we call it a truce? ;)

[Beren Erchanion]

Definitly Fëanor, because he change the world like no one did. I agree he bring evil and became a little mad about his jewels but he leads his peoples to the middle earth in order to destroy evil, so maybe he killed some elves and began an endless war era but whitout him, I doubt that thingol and the others who stayed in ME would have vainquish the forces of Evil. And that's the most important thing of all, fight Evil and beat Evil.

[Gil-Galad]

Yeah,you're right I can't convince you,you can't too.So what can we do?I suggest let the other vote,maybe we can make a poll who is greater,Feanor or Galadriel.I don't think there's any need of doing such thing,but if you want we can post such poll.

[Elu Thingol]

I'd go with Ingwe if he was on there because he understood Manwe who understands Eru, but since he is not I go with Feanor.

[Flame of Anor]

I voted for Fëanor but I would, if given the choice, voted for Ingwë who was the King of the Eldar (Elves).

[Melian]

Gil-Galad got a best-rating!!!!A great Elf,obviously:)

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Beren Erchanion
Definitly Fëanor, because he change the world like no one did. I agree he bring evil and became a little mad about his jewels but he leads his peoples to the middle earth in order to destroy evil, so maybe he killed some elves and began an endless war era but whitout him, I doubt that thingol and the others who stayed in ME would have vainquish the forces of Evil. And that's the most important thing of all, fight Evil and beat Evil.

Uhhhhmmmmmm. Feanor was more than a little "evil" himself!

Killing "some elves" is not just okay, and neither is starting an endless war. Besides, NO, Thingol and the others would not have been able to vanquish the forces of evil. Neither were the Noldor, or anyone BUT THE VALAR.

Besides, fighting evil and beating evil are two different things. Evil remained in Middle-Earth and became strong again.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Elu Thingol
I'd go with Ingwe if he was on there because he understood Manwe who understands Eru, but since he is not I go with Feanor.

Indeed, Thingol, Ingwe is a good choice. Those with the purest understanding are truly the wisest among us, and certainly good candidates for the "greatest"!

[Maedhros]

Ingwe is a good choice. Those with the purest understanding are truly the wisest among us, and certainly good candidates for the "greatest"!
Yes, truly greatness because he arrived in Valinor and never left and stayed forever at the feet of Manwe. If to sit idle forever is greatness, he is the greatest.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Maedhros

Yes, truly greatness because he arrived in Valinor and never left and stayed forever at the feet of Manwe. If to sit idle forever is greatness, he is the greatest.

Actually, you and I have absolutely no idea what Ingwë did or did not accomplish, save that word of it never came back to Middle-Earth.

[Maedhros]

Actually, you and I have absolutely no idea what Ingwë did or did not accomplish, save that word of it never came back to Middle-Earth.
The Eldar prepared now a great march from their first homes in the east; and they were arrayed in three hosts. The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name; but he came never back, nor looked again upon Middle-earth.
I know that he didn't take part in the War of Wrath. Hmmmmm. I wonder why. A great leader and yet he didn't lead his people in that battle. Yes, he's the personification of greatness.

[HLGStrider]

Maybe he was a pacifist.... :)

[Aredhel]

I think Feanor was the greatest.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Maedhros


I know that he didn't take part in the War of Wrath. Hmmmmm. I wonder why. A great leader and yet he didn't lead his people in that battle. Yes, he's the personification of greatness.

Heh! Is your qualification of a 'great leader' dependent so greatly upon his willingness to go forth to war?

Obviously, there are countless thousands of years of history involving Ingwe about which we haven't the slightest clue.

However, to having a higher understanding of Manwe, and thus of Eru, is far more worthy of praise than to be some pride-ridden elf who allows selfishness and ego to override any good that he accomplished (ie. Feanor), in my opinion.

[Maedhros]

In Chapter 24 of the Silmarillion: Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath
That voice was the voice of Eönwë, herald of Manwë, and he came from Valimar, and summoned Eärendil to come before the Powers of Arda. And Eärendil went into Valinor and to the halls of Valimar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. Then the Valar took counsel together, and they summoned Ulmo from the deeps of the sea; and Eärendil stood before their faces, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds. Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need. And his prayer was granted.
But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë.
The people of Ingwë went to war because it was the designs of the Valar.
Heh! Is your qualification of a 'great leader' dependent so greatly upon his willingness to go forth to war?
However, to having a higher understanding of Manwe, and thus of Eru, is far more worthy of praise than to be some pride-ridden elf who allows selfishness and ego to override any good that he accomplished (ie. Feanor), in my opinion.
So Ingwë had a greater understanding of Manwë, and yet he didn't participate in the task that was appointed by the Valar. Instead he sent foward his people and remains behind in the security of Valinor. That doesn't sound like a great leader to me. Heh!

[Tyaronumen]

Hmmm -- so you apparently seem to have insider information on why Ingwe (and, for that matter, Manwe) remained in Aman...?

Or is it just supposition based upon your desire to denigrate Ingwe? :D

[Maedhros]

In Chapter 3 of the Silmarillion:Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
The Eldar prepared now a great march from their first homes in the east; and they were arrayed in three hosts. The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name; but he came never back, nor looked again upon Middle-earth. The Vanyar were his people; they are the Fair Elves, the beloved of Manwë and Varda, and few among Men have spoken with them.
From this quote in the Silmarillion, it states that since Ingwë came to Valinor, he never came back to ME, then it's logical to say that he didn't participate in the war or wrath.
so you apparently seem to have insider information on why Ingwe (and, for that matter, Manwe) remained in Aman...?
I have no insider information, but if he was the king of the Vanyar, why didn't he led them, instead of remaining behind in Valinor, where there was no danger.
Or is it just supposition based upon your desire to denigrate Ingwe?
I don't seek to denigrate anybody, just to point a fact that has been avoided in this discussion.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Maedhros
In Chapter 3 of the Silmarillion:Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

From this quote in the Silmarillion, it states that since Ingwë came to Valinor, he never came back to ME, then it's logical to say that he didn't participate in the war or wrath.

Yes - that was never in question as far as I know.

I have no insider information, but if he was the king of the Vanyar, why didn't he led them, instead of remaining behind in Valinor, where there was no danger.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me as if you feel that a leader has to be at the forefront of danger in order to be a good leader...? Are Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt BAD leaders because they did not charge into battle at the front of their warriors? Should Churchill, Montgomery, and Eisenhower all be thought less of because they weren't in the first boat to land at Normandy?

There is a rather LARGE difference between someone who rules their people, and someone who leads them into battle. It is true that in fiction and truth, these roles have often been combined -- but it is undeniably true that the most effective _rulers_ were those who did not spend the majority of their time in the field fighting battles (which tends to have a negative impact on one's ability to govern effectively).

What if Ingwe was terrible with a sword? Does this fact make him not a good leader, or unworthy? If _I_ had a beloved leader who couldn't fight worth a ****, I sure wouldn't want him/her out there in the forefront of the battle fighting. No, I'd want him/her back safe at home, so that when the battle is over -- and hopefully won -- (s)he can continue to lend wisdom to my people.

I don't seek to denigrate anybody, just to point a fact that has been avoided in this discussion.

Not avoided by me. I haven't at all avoided that Ingwe didn't go to Beleriand and fight in the War of Wrath.

It's just that the relevance of this factor (perceived or otherwise) has not been made clear to me.

[Maedhros]

Are Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt BAD leaders because they did not charge into battle at the front of their warriors? Should Churchill, Montgomery, and Eisenhower all be thought less of because they weren't in the first boat to land at Normandy?
I always wonder why people tend to compare that which is in the books with other references, I always thought that jrrt works by themselves were good enough and didn't need outside references or comparisons.
What if Ingwe was terrible with a sword? Does this fact make him not a good leader, or unworthy?
I don't think that in the works of jrrt that excuse can be made that he was "bad with a sword." All of the elf lords in the battles participated in them and were the leaders of their respective camps.
To not go foward in battle and encourage your people to fight, IMO is wrong. How do we know that he was "bad with a sword", if they didn't used them in Valinor? Were all the Vanyar were "bad with swords too"? Yet, they went foward to war too.

It's just that the relevance of this factor (perceived or otherwise) has not been made clear to me.
It's very simple, he send his people to war because of the cause and yet he didn't even go himself. Would a true leader send his people into battle and stay behind in the security of Valinor. Maybe in real life, but not in the world of jrrt. (Aragorn, Gil-Galad, Fingolfin, Maedhros, Fingon, Turgon, Feanor, etc.)

[HelplessModAddi]

Maybe he DID participate in the War of Wrath, and JRRT made a MISTAKE *gasp* :eek: :eek: :eek:

[HelplessModAddi]

Ok seriously, here's what I think.

Mightiest Elda = Feanor
Most Revered, Influential and Wise Elda = Ingwe
Bravest Elda = Fingolfin
Elda With Most Common Sense = Finarfin
Other Great Eldar = Fingon
Finrod
Turgon
Elu Thingol
Maedhros
Maglor
Cirdan
Gilgalad
Galadriel
Elrond
Arwen

Hmm.

Feanor = Dead
Fingolfin = Dead
Fingon = Dead
Ingwe = Stuck in Valinor
Finarfin = Stuck in Valinor
Finrod = Dead
Turgon = Dead
Elu Thingol = Dead
Maedhros = Accursed, then Dead
Maglor = Lost Forever
Cirdan = Beseiged in Luin
Gilgalad = Dead
Galadriel = Besieged in Lothlorien
Elrond = Beseiged in Rivendell
Arwen = Beseiged in Rivendell
"Oft help shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter"
Luthien = Greatest Elf Ever :D

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Maedhros

I always wonder why people tend to compare that which is in the books with other references, I always thought that jrrt works by themselves were good enough and didn't need outside references or comparisons.

Because the examples are relevant. If you choose not to consider references outside of Tolkien's work when evaluating it, that is your decision.

I don't think that in the works of jrrt that excuse can be made that he was "bad with a sword." All of the elf lords in the battles participated in them and were the leaders of their respective camps.
To not go foward in battle and encourage your people to fight, IMO is wrong. How do we know that he was "bad with a sword", if they didn't used them in Valinor? Were all the Vanyar were "bad with swords too"? Yet, they went foward to war too.

Ehhhhhmmmmm -- the leaders of our world are constantly encouraging their people to fight for causes that are perceived as just, and do not personally have any participation in them. Why? Because they are (or are perceived as :) ) _needed_ to rule their people.

Obviously, many among the Vanyar were just fine with swords.

So, why are you not down on Manwe as well for not going to the War of Wrath and for sending Eonwe his herald to fight for him, etc, etc, etc.? Hmm?


It's very simple, he send his people to war because of the cause and yet he didn't even go himself. Would a true leader send his people into battle and stay behind in the security of Valinor. Maybe in real life, but not in the world of jrrt. (Aragorn, Gil-Galad, Fingolfin, Maedhros, Fingon, Turgon, Feanor, etc.)

You just have absolutely no idea what occurred there, Maedhros. :D It could have been a council in which many Vanyar elders implored their king to allow them to march into the east with the the Host of the Vanyar. It could have been that they begged Ingwe not to go. Or, heck, you could be right and may be Ingwe was too busy contemplating his navel to do anything useful.

But since you and I don't know, and since the only real words from Tolkien about Ingwe are that he was highest in the understanding of Manwe (and thus Iluvatar), it seems obvious to me that his motivations were derived from that which is good, and that his actions were proper.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Smeagol


I follow this by saying Feanor and Galadriel share the top spot.

Well, obviously neither Feanor nor Galadriel were especially wise. My personal criteria for 'greatest elf ever' disallows elves who were consistently rash and made poor decisions.

[Gil-Galad]

HelplessModAddi,I would say that:
Luthien=dead,so that she can't be the greatest elf ever.It's important what he or she has done during his or her life.I've already argued whether Luthien is the greatest elf ever,because of her love and the fact that took a sil from Morgoth.

[HelplessModAddi]

Luthien died of old age. She wasn't slain like all those other people. The thing is, she did more than all those "wise" and "great" elves ever could.

[Maedhros]

So, why are you not down on Manwe as well for not going to the War of Wrath and for sending Eonwe his herald to fight for him, etc, etc, etc.? Hmm?
And who says that I'm not. Manwe is guilty of making poor decisions in the past, even thought he was regarded as the one vala who most understood the designs of Eru.

But since you and I don't know, and since the only real words from Tolkien about Ingwe are that he was highest in the understanding of Manwe (and thus Iluvatar), it seems obvious to me that his motivations were derived from that which is good, and that his actions were proper.
I wonder what could have happened if he went to war and was slain. Since he was an elf, he was elegible to be reborn again and return to Valinor. Believe me, he had a lot of time in his hands.
I wonder, why was his life more important than that of any other Vanyar elf?
I still fail to see your reasons to award his as the greatest elf. Because he never returned to ME or because he was the one elf who understood best the mind of Manwe. Is that it?
So what!

[Gil-Galad]

Yeah,I think it's possible to be made a movie about Beren and Lutien.The producers in Holywood are looking for such romantic stories and always the movies are awful.For example Pearl Harbour.I don't know why the movie is called "Pearl Harbour".There're only 30 minutes whici are about the Japanese attack and the damage after it.The other 150 minuted are about the love between the three main charecters.
Having in mind this example,I think that a movie about Luthien and Beren would be the worst movie ever done

[Ecthelion]

I voted for Feanor, but really I think Glorfindel is the best by far!:)

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Maedhros

And who says that I'm not. Manwe is guilty of making poor decisions in the past, even thought he was regarded as the one vala who most understood the designs of Eru.

First of all, you are extremely naive if you believe that ANYONE is NOT guilty of "making poor decisions in the past".

Secondly, since Iluvatar's plan was unfolding according to design (see Iluvatar's statements to Melkor), who the heck are you to gainsay him, his son (Manwe), or the elf whom understood them both the best?

You can say whatsoever you like about any of them, but the truth is simply that you don't understand them, their motives, nor their actions, and you ought to leave it at that.


Is that it?
So what!

If you ever have a chance to meet the most favored servant of a being who creates worlds from nothingness, I suspect that you'd display quite a bit less hubris.

[Maedhros]

First of all, you are extremely naive if you believe that ANYONE is NOT guilty of "making poor decisions in the past".
This is to establish that he is not perfect and that he can make mistakes, same as anyone else.
From Morgoth's Ring: Appendix 'The Converse of Manwë and Eru' and later conceptions of Elvish reincarnation
There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of Míriel in Aman that Manwë appealesd directly to Eru for counsel. Eur 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it.
If Manwë could make such a mistake, i imagine that Ingwë could too. I'm not saying that he did, but he could have.
Secondly, since Iluvatar's plan was unfolding according to design (see Iluvatar's statements to Melkor), who the heck are you to gainsay him, his son (Manwe), or the elf whom understood them both the best?
Let's not get all testy for this. I'm a reader of the works of jrrt. I have my opinions and they are mine. I have the right to question whatever I want in these stories. The role that Ingwe played in the Silmarillion was important, but i thought that he could do better. He's supposed to be the most wise king of the elves. Think of all the great things that he could have teach Men in ME.
You can say whatsoever you like about any of them, but the truth is simply that you don't understand them, their motives, nor their actions, and you ought to leave it at that.
Nope.
If you ever have a chance to meet the most favored servant of a being who creates worlds from nothingness, I suspect that you'd display quite a bit less hubris.
I have not disrespected them. I'm just pointing my views.
What happened to the smilies of your posts? Does this mean no more smilies?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Maedhros

The role that Ingwe played in the Silmarillion was important


Not really:D
Otherwise,I agree to some extent that Ingwë could have helped much with his wisdom,but maybe his not involving in any of the affairs of the 1st Age was all part of a greater plan(the way Manwë or Iluvatar himself planned it).

[Maedhros]

Not really
Well, leading his people to Valinor and accepting the summonings of the Valar, was something important in the history of the elves. Their whole values and culture changed when they came to Valinor and lived side with side with the Valar.
To the elves, it was a defining point in their history. It is important.

[Ithrynluin]

The role Ingwë played in the Silmarillion is not that important.
The journey of the elves makes up a very miniscule part of the Quenta Silmarillion.And about Ingwë's "leading" : his role was (maybe) to persuade the Vanyar to answer the summons of the Valar.The road to Valinor was pretty much cleared up by Orome.
I'm not trying to make Ingwë look like a poor elf,just clearing up the question of his importance to the Silmarillion!

[Frolo]

you forgot legolos. I bet if you would of put him in he would have the most.

[Beorn]

I take it you haven't read the Silmarillion, Frolo. In the Silmarillion, you can read much more heroic acts by elves than anything Legolas did. Legolas tagged along with the fellowship....

I suggest you read the Silmarillion, and I hope you enjoy it...

Oh, yeah, welcome to the forum!

[Gil-Galad]

Frolo,
in fact Legolas didn't do so great things like Feanor,Fingon,Luthien,Galadriel,Turgon,Finrod Felagund.He just took part in the fellowship nothing more.Try to read The Silmarillion and then decide who is the greatest elf ever.

:p

[Rúmil]

Well, first of all, as this is my first post on this forum (though i've been reading it for some time without registering) greetings to everyone :)

The greatest Elda? definetely Fëanor.

Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.

I think this is important: apart from the fact that Fëanor was the most gifted of the Elves (no-one can argue with that ), he was the one whose anger, grief and pride led the Noldor into exile. In the end, he still was greatest of the Noldor: most skilled of all Elves, very valiant, being the only one who stood against several Balrogs toghether; he had companions, but they were all killed and he stood the last, long enough for his sons to come and rescue him; the only other who fought more than one blarog, as far as I know, was Fingon, when an other Balrog slipped behind him and bound him with his whip while he was fighting Gothmog), and very noble. Being a murderer does not make him less noble: the Silm abounds in fell yet noble characters, Túrin not the least, who has quite some blood on his hands, and he still is the greatest man ever (or one of the greatest anyway).
Fëanor was marred by Morgoth (Manwë somewhere calls the marring of Fëanor one of the greatest evils achieved by Morgoth), making him a tragic character, both great and dark. It is this abivalence, IMO, which makes him so striking: he is what Aristotle calls a monster , half-angel half-demon. It is the strife between these two angles of his character which causes all the later events. Were there any songs made about Telchar, the greatest Dwarf smith ever, even though he made the sword of Turgon and of Gandalf?
But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'
If Fëanor had not rebelled, many songs of great beauty would not have appeared in Eä. If that does not make someone great what does? The ideas of being good and being great are seperated: he was great though a murderer, a traitor and a rebel.
Another thing is his body being consumed by fire after his death; the same sort of thing happens to Saruman in the Scouring of the Shire: maybe this means he is almost on the same level as a Maia?

A great book about this idea of being at the same time noble and fey and perilous, I think, is Caligula by Albert Camus. Read it! read it!

[Melian Le Fay]

Aaaaahhh....what about Earendil?
He did kind of bring the salvation of Middle Earth from Morgoth....
I think he was desperate when he went to the West to seek help from the Valar, but, on the other hand, wasn't that the wisest choice?
Nobody could stop Morgoth, neither Elves nor Men.....All of those deaths were in vain, when you look on it... The only ones who could oppose a Vala were - Valar...
So I frankly believe that the Elf who did Middle Earth the gratest favour was Earendil...

[ReadWryt]

I suspect that you'd display quite a bit less hubris.

What was THAT supposed to mean, I've not seen good Maedhros demonstrate Pride OR any sign of being even CLOSE to a fall...?

The role Ingwë played in the Silmarillion is not that important.

I see, and this is why he was relegated to the Books of Lost Tales and not the final work...I can see your point, I mean...Elves and Valar obviously didn't think much of him, what with calling him most high king, building a tower in his name and letting him sit at their feet at Taniquetil and all...

One could easily then make the argument that Beren didn't play a very important role either by the measure of the results of his actions on the world of the Silmarillion. Yeah there were songs written about him, and he wooed a pretty killer babe into falling for him, but in the long run he had less influence over the outcome of his peoples then Ingwë ever did...

[Darth Saruman]

Greatest of arms and valor: Fingolfin

Greatest of mind and crafts: Feanor

[Rúmil]

Well, as for Ëarendil, I think technically he doesn't quite qualify as an Elf: his heart was with Men, and he only chose to become an Elf because he wouldn't be separated from Elwing. Definitely, he is the one who did Middle-Earth the greatest favour; but his most extraordinary feat was to find Valinor; and Tolkien always calls him the greatest mariner of all time, not simply the greatest as he does Fëanor. His part after that just consisted in saying "hey, c'mon, guys, help us!" - the Valar just were aching to do so anyway. Not maligning the feat of finding Valionor, it just seems easier than making the jewels than decided of the fate of Arda.

[Gil-Galad]

Milena,Earendil was half an elf and we're talking about elves,not half an elves.He is really great person but not as much as Feanor.:cool:

[blacksword]

whay are guys all bringing up luthien? she was first half maiar, and then later human. I mean Earendil is in her shoes, heck he chose to be an elf. So why isnt he in the charts. I rate Earendil along with Feanor as the greatest elves ever. The two of them brought about world-wide changes. One was a villain to the valar and brough rebellion and yet stood his ground and in his beliefs. Heck if he had defeated morgoth, he will be like a god to all of ME elves today. The other had the foresight and hope to ask for forgiveness. Any person who can do what Earendil does is no small feat.
After those two, i guess fingolfin (standing up to morgoth was awesome), finrod (noble to the end) and fingon come next. then perhaps Etchelion or glorfindel (slaying balrogs) isnt easy.Heck these two have songs in thier names.
And please Galadriel shouldnt be anywhere in this poll, she did absolutely nothing great. Nothing in the Sil and all she id was pass a test in LOTR just to show she wasnt a greedy ***** anymore.

[HLGStrider]

Despite that she became a human, most of Luthien's great deeds were preformed while an elf... practically all of them in fact. I'd say she'd qualify...

[blacksword]

well technically, she was half maiar when she performed her deeds. c'mon you know that no common elf woman could do what she did. you think galadriel could slap morgoth to sleep:D

[Rúmil]

I agree about what Blacksword says about Ëarendil and Fëanor, but you still have to bear in mind that Galadriel was Sauron's greatest opponent for two ages, except for Mithrandir at the end of the third; but if Galadriel had not stayed Sauron for six thousand years who knows what could have happened. Still doesn't rate as high as the two other, but can't be forgotten.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by ReadWryt


What was THAT supposed to mean, I've not seen good Maedhros demonstrate Pride OR any sign of being even CLOSE to a fall...?



I see, and this is why he was relegated to the Books of Lost Tales and not the final work...I can see your point, I mean...Elves and Valar obviously didn't think much of him, what with calling him most high king, building a tower in his name and letting him sit at their feet at Taniquetil and all...

One could easily then make the argument that Beren didn't play a very important role either by the measure of the results of his actions on the world of the Silmarillion. Yeah there were songs written about him, and he wooed a pretty killer babe into falling for him, but in the long run he had less influence over the outcome of his peoples then Ingwë ever did...

Tell me,dear ReadWryt,did Ingwë leave any kind of an impact in the Sil?
The subtle use of irony in your post is quite amusing actually.Though you might think differently (and obviously you do) I definitely wouldn't give my vote to Ingwë as the greatest elf.He is named "the high king of all the Noldor - what did he do to deserve such a noble,prominent title? "A tower was built in his name" - in my book that's something like "Finwë is great because he sired such great,gifted,noble children.
The thing I DO admire about Ingwë is his wisdom not to get involved in any rebellion against the Valar and staying true to their counsel.
Anyway,I definitely do not intend to argue about it,we'll just leave it at "people's opinions differ" :)

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Milena,Earendil was half an elf and we're talking about elves,not half an elves.He is really great person but not as much as Feanor.:cool:

And Elrond was "half-elven" but he's on the poll,so that's not a very good reason to leave out Eärendil and Luthien.
And BTW Gil-Galad,I think you've found a soul mate and an ally in blacksword (in your campaign against Galadriel).

Originally posted by Rumil
I agree about what Blacksword says about Ëarendil and Fëanor, but you still have to bear in mind that Galadriel was Sauron's greatest opponent for two ages, except for Mithrandir at the end of the third; but if Galadriel had not stayed Sauron for six thousand years who knows what could have happened.

I agree totally.

Originally posted by blacksword
And please Galadriel shouldnt be anywhere in this poll, she did absolutely nothing great. Nothing in the Sil and all she id was pass a test in LOTR just to show she wasnt a greedy ***** anymore.

I disagree totally.:rolleyes:

[HLGStrider]

Anyway, can Maiar traits be inherited? Luthien was in all practicality an elf. She was a little more powerful due to her blood, but she was as much of an elf as Elrond ever was.

[blacksword]

okay luthien was not as much as elf as elrond. rememeber that elrond was half-elevn and then chose to be full blooded elf. luthien never chose to be an elf, but later on became human. big difference. And yet earendil who chose to be elf is not on the poll...doesnt make sense.
And for for galadriel, what did she exactly do? I am just asking. i have read the Sil, UT and LOTR. all she did was stay in lorien hiding from sauron...(some might say resisting). if she really stood up to sauron, she should have gone to mt doom to fight him. heck sauron was looking for her and not the other way around. Sure she might be the second oldest elf (cirdan is the oldest but what about celeborn?), but i say that elrond was the big elf chief in ME. He had the greatest ring after all and was the only survivor after the war since the last elf king (gil-galad) died. Besides isnt elrond like the king of elves after gil-galad died, since elornd was like his lieutenant. anyway the son of earendil and the descendent of luthien gets my vote over galadriel as who is greater.

[Ithrynluin]

blacksword,if you really believe that "greatness" is measured only in raw power then I don't think I should even bother telling you why I think she's the greatest.
Gil-Galad & I have been fighting over this several pages back.Go check it out if you want.
And if there should be a king/queen of elves,Galadriel would be it.

[HLGStrider]

So if Luthien had said "I want to be an elf" and been magically transformed she would've been more of an elf than Elrond... Hmmmmmm... Luthien was Elrond's ancestor for gosh sakes.

[Rúmil]

In addition, Galadriel made Lórien the most beautiful place in ME, nearly recalling Valinor - and that alone says she was as great, if not greater, than Elrond. Also, she was Finwë's and Olwë's granddaughter, so if the High-Kingship of the Noldor could have passed through females, she would have been High Queen.

[blacksword]

O boy. First of all i never said that greatness was measured only in raw power. I agree that galadirel is one of the greatest but if memory serves me right, elrond is said to be the big cat in ME. No one ever gives credit ti cirdan anyway. While lorien is the most beautful in all of ME, does it then mean that greatness is only measured in beauty? I have seen the debate about what constitutes greatness and everybody has a point. Many might not like Feanor, but he is considered the greatest of the Noldor. One cannot alwasy take the meaning of greatness to mean doing beautiful things and all. To achieve peace, one must have war. Which is why feanor and co battled morgoth. do you think they all liked war.
To HLGstrider, i dont get what you are saying. luthien became human after rescuing beren. before that, i say that she was half-maiar. do you consider melian to be maia then?
To rumil, while i agree that lorien is great, i say that rivendell is greater. Didnt gandalf say somewhere that of all refuges aginst sauron, rivendell will be the last to fall (ecept old man baombadil). Rivendell is said to be a gethering of all elves and thier culture including arts, music and so. everyone knows where it is. lorein is more of a hdieout....even legolas a prince (correct me if i am wrong), wasnt sure about lorien. besides why didnt the council all go to lorien to ask for guidance....nope they went to seek help from elrond. case rested. elrond is greater than galadriel. and about galadirel's lineage, look at elrond and tell me if you believe hers is as great as elrond.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by blacksword
I agree that galadirel is one of the greatest but if memory serves me right, elrond is said to be the big cat in ME.

And Fëanor is said to have been made greatest in mind,body,skill of hand,...etc. If everyone ran off to see what Tolkien wrote,what would be the point of this poll? The answer is obviously Fëanor,right? When I read the books I made the decision about who is the greatest in my mind.

[HLGStrider]

I'm saying that half elf is good enough. She wasn't human when she did the thing, but I am in doubt that Maia could go down into bloodlines so easily. They're more spiritual creatures. Also, I was under the impression that Maia chose their form. The Istari chose old men. The Balrogs chose terrible fiery creatures. I assumed that Melian chose the physical body of an elf. If so, wouldn't her blood transmit as such? Perhaps a more powerful elf, but still an elf.

[Tar-Elenion]

"Then Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamír; and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm."
The Silmarillion
There are other passages elsewhere indicatining that the Maiarin 'blood' was 'transmitted' down the blooline.

[blacksword]

To ithrynluin, i am talking about the third age. After feanor...Elrond is said to be the big dog by gandalf or somebody.....and if we all pick the greatess according to how we read it, then there is truly no one choice, is there.
And HLGstrider, if half elf is good enough for luthien, then why sint good enough for Earendil considering he chose to be an elf later on. And noo, juts cos you are spiritual doesnt mean you wont have characteristics of who you. ..is gandalf an old man or actually a maiar? if he gives rise to the child, will that child be of of a race of men/elf (whatever gandalf appears to be), than rather what he actually is. Tar-elenion says it best about Dior. Luthien is considered half amai....and Melian is maia...jst cos she has a body of elf....she clealy doesnt have the powers of an elf...no other elf can make a girdle around her kingdom hiding it from morgoth....too bad she became a coward and ran away....rather un-elf like dont you think?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by blacksword
To ithrynluin, i am talking about the third age. After feanor...Elrond is said to be the big dog by gandalf or somebody.....and if we all pick the greatess according to how we read it, then there is truly no one choice, is there.

I know you are talking about 3rd Age.What I was trying to tell you is that if Tolkien writes or implies that someone is the greatest or greater than someone else,I'm not just going to take that for granted,I'm going to make the decisions myself,based on what I read.And frankly I don't see Elrond as greater than Galadriel.Just my personal opinion.
And that's the beauty of Tolkien and all books in general,people are free to interpret things according to their own values and beliefs.

[Rúmil]

Tolkien states that Elrond directed the most important settling of Elves in Middle-Earth. Are you going to say Denrthor was greater than Galadriel because he ruled more people? I think you're confusing political power and personal "greatness".
What makes it hard to judge is that Elrond also had great power and wisdom of his own, but I don't think his craft (like making magic garments) or "psy" powers (like the Mirror) could match Galadriel's.
But, don't forget, Galadriel was on top of Sauron's hit list. He obviously thought her a more dangerous foe.

[HLGStrider]

Black, I was not saying that it wasn't good enough for Earendil. I have no opinion about Earendil. I was just defending Luthien as a choice.

However, I was told by a higher expert (Tar-E) above, that maiar can go down the line, so I will back off on that point.

Still, I am saying that Luthien is enough of an elf to be included. I never said anything about Earendil... In fact I'm even too lazy to check on his name, which I think I am misspelling... aren't I? Sorry...

Well, you can fight for Earendil all you want. I will support Luthien.

Actually I voted for Elrond just because he raised Aragorn who I happen to be especially fond of... I didn't think he would get enough votes that mine would make a difference there.

[blacksword]

Elrond directed the most important settling of Elves in Middle-Earth. Are you going to say Denrthor was greater than Galadriel because he ruled more people

Elevs are different from humans. Denethor could have been one of the greatest men this side of the Dunedain. Political power ofcourse is not just a prereq for greatness but in most cases, it is one of them. Elrond cooordinated the activities of most elves in ME. that shows he has clout.

But, don't forget, Galadriel was on top of Sauron's hit list. He obviously thought her a more dangerous foe.

When was this said. I think Sauron just plainly wanted the three rings. He never liked Galadirel since she could see into him, but then again with her ring, Galadirel was at greater risk....besides what could she do to him. Put him to sleep, knock him out...nope but I think elrond possessed more of a real threat. Elrond could have launched another alliance (like back in the days with Gil-galad), Elrond's haven is said to be the last fort of the elves if Sauron conquers ME....

And about Earendil, yeah there is something i like about him. He just seemed normal...Earendil the blessed, Earendil the mariner......greatest elf this side of Feanor. He is the reson that Gaaldriel and the others even have a chance to go back home...rather than be dogmeat for Sauron. I think his greatness is up there with feanor if not surpassing it.

[Rúmil]

There is no way Elrond could have launched another Alliance: all he had was Rivendell, an at most two hundred Elves in it, just about enough to make one company; and that was the biggest settling of High Elves in ME. None of them was a real threat politically, only because of their wisdom and power of mind.

[Gil-Galad]

Well I don't think that Elrond was the biggest enemy of Sauron among elves in ME.I just think that he was the last possible enemy after destroying Gondor,Dale, and Galadriel.I believe that Galadriel was the greatest enemy of Sauron in ME because she was the only among High elves in ME who had been in Valinor.She was the only one among them who had lived during all years in I II and III ages.
Let's think.Feanor didn't like Galadriel because she was very wise even wiser than him.I doubt that Elrond was greater,wiser..etc...than Feanor and Galadriel.
And something more.I remember somewhere in Ut is written that Sauron believes Galadriel was his biggest enemy.

[Ithrynluin]

I agree with what you said Gil.
Elrond was IMHO the next biggest enemy of Sauron,right after Galadriel.

The quote from UT:
He [Sauron] perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy.

It is possible that Gala