Should Boromir have been in the fellowship?

[ILLOTRTM]

I personally think so, but others think not. This will be an interesting debate, I think.

[Ancalagon]

I'll actually take it a step further; should Boromir have led the fellowship?

[ILLOTRTM]

Aha! Interesting query! Why do you say this?

[Xanaphia]

Borimir is an excelent fighter and did a good deal of work in all the battles he took part in. He was going to be king of Gondor and they clearly state that he was one of the best fighters they had. It does not get in to it much in the book, but he really was a valiant and brave swordsman. Who knows, maybe if he hadn't been their they would have lost the battle in Moria against the orcs and trolls or another battle and then perhaps Frodo would be killed, and maybe someone else would take the ring and not succede!
As I said before in another thread. (correction he was going to be Stuart of Gondor- my mistake:))

And besides it really added a lot more excitement to the story!

[Xanaphia]

Ancalagon:
Though I do think Borimir should be in the Fellowship I don't think he should have lead it.In the book it shows a bit of frictioin between Aragorn and Borimir after Gandalf dies, but I think it was right for Aragorn to lead. Borimir was overcome by the ring and would have likely lead the fellowship to destruction

[Dûndorer]

"men are week", he was just mentally week. it wasnt his fault.

[Anamatar IV]

why not? He was very honorable. He was chosen by the stewart of gondor over his brother. He was very valiant. Without them the hobbits wouldnt have been throuigh cahadras and wouldve had a harder time escaping from orcs.

[DRavisher]

Indeed, amerxtremist. But remember that the steward of Gondor, Boromirs father was under a lot of stress, since he had seen the armies of Mordor. To him the battle was lost, so his judgement was weakened. I personally liked Boromirs brother much more than i did Boromir. I do believe that if Boromir had indeed lead the fellowship, he would have gone to Minas Tirith, as he stated that he wanted to. And that, I think, would have been a mistake.

[The Necromancer]

I think he should have. Merry and Pip would have been killed, but i also think that Faramir should have went. If Borimir was such a great fighter, then why did Dethenor let him go? Minias Tirith would have been much better with Borimir!

[DRavisher]

You say that you think "he should have", what do you mean, necromancer?

[The Necromancer]

I meant I think he should have been in The Fellowship...but then again I don't. Sorry for the confusion.

[Grond]

Boromir was the vehicle Tolkien used to illustrate the corrupting influence of the Ring. You had a man who's country was in desperate straights, fighting a war against a far superior force, presented with a "Super Weapon" of sorts.

I'm sure Tolkien could have found another way of making the point, but Boromir's inclusion left an indeliable mark that I have always found "completed" the Fellowship. It illustrated the variability of man. In the Fellowship, you had two. One incorruptible (Aragorn) and one corruptible by circumstance (Boromir).

At least that's the way I see it... but I could be wrong. :)

[DRavisher]

Agreed, Grond:) I voted yes on the poll, since he was important. I also think that he helped Frodo understand more and more the situation he was in.

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I'll actually take it a step further; should Boromir have led the fellowship?
Boromir should have been in the Fellowship as he was from Gondor and was the son of Denethor Steward of Gondor. As for him leading the Fellowship, in my opinion the answer is no. Gandalf was Istari, a Maia sent to help Middle-earth. His was the greater wisdom and knowledge and therefore the best able to lead.

After Gandalf's fall in Moria, we then have the choice between Aragorn, Boromir and Legolas. Legolas, although an Elf with much experience in Middle-earth did not have the knowledge of the Dark Lord of Mordor, also he had not shown himself to be a Leader.

Boromir had shown that he could be a leader and he was the son of the Steward of Gondor, he know somewhat of the ways of Sauron.

However, Aragorn son of Arathorn Chieftain of the Dunedain of the North, had proved himself a leader who knew much of the ways of Sauron, had much knowledge of the lands between Rivendel and Mordor and was moreover Isildur's heir of Gondor, the Rightful King of Gondor and Arnor.

So we have In my not so humble opinion, this hirachy.
Gandalf - Maia and wisest of the Fellowship.
Aragorn - Heir to the throne of Gondor and Arnor.
Bormir - Heir to the chair of the Steward of Gondor.

After that, it's anyone's guess.

[HLGStrider]

No, he shouldn't have lead... The perfect Aragorn was there, and he was such a great guy...

I like him there, though I have never been too fond of Boromir as a person. (ie Book character). He added a necessary touch of human frailty. He was a good fighter. He was of fairly noble heritage, and before the ring got to him, he was a pretty decent guy... besides, the humans were a tad bit outnumbered... though so were the elves and dwarves and maia... The only real majority was hobbits...

[Ice Man]

Yes.

He may not have been the virtuos fighter/hero/leader that people like, but he was helpful, and, in a strange way, played a key role in the events that surrounded the Fellowship.

[ILLOTRTM]

Borimir was wonderful, but he shouldn't have led the fellowship.

[Ancalagon]

The quotes below would seem an obvious choice, yet I suppose most people would tend to think this way;

Gandalf - Maia and wisest of the Fellowship.

Ok, so we have Gandalf; sent by the Valar to assist both Elves and Men in choosing the righteous path, in the face of Sauron. Yet, should he actually be leading? In fact he should be encouraging and driving those among Men and Elves who ought to lead, from behind, as both supporter and advisor? Others are better placed to lead, yet importantly Gandalf should seek to guide and teach.

Aragorn - Heir to the throne of Gondor and Arnor.

Was he best suited to the task? Surely a king without a throne is no better than a hobbit without a hole? At this point Aragorn is still subject to Denethor. Yes, his credentials are good, but he was not King yet, and those select few who held the fate of Middle-Earth in their hands at the council of Elrond should not so easily have raised him upon a pedestol.

Boromir - Heir to the chair of the Steward of Gondor.

Who knew in advance the thoughts of Boromirs heart? Yet, he had made the journey from Minas Tirith, single-handed. Boromir is a leader of men, his valour, shrewdness and skill both in tactics and battle were well known. He was in actual fact the highest ranked among them, for Aragorn had no rank save that among his own people, who themselves were simply a nomadic tribe of royal blood.

Of course Boromir should have led the group, irrespective of whether you or I or Tolkien disliked him.

Tolkien of course is a separate issue altogher. Grond, whether Boromir was a;
vehicle Tolkien used to illustrate the corrupting influence of the Ring
is absolutely irrelevant in this debate. The fact is the character is written, he is at the council, his heritage is not questioned, therefore his merit to lead the group is the same as anyone else. We are not seeking a psychological evaluation as to why Boromir was ever written into the work, we simply want to know whether 1. He should be included in the fellowship and 2. why should he lead the fellowship.

In addition, Merry and Pippin should never have been allowed to travel with the Fellowship. Their inclusion highlights the especially ill-thought out decisions that the council took in relation to how they would succeed and who they should send. The Council of Elrond was a farce.

All this business about secrecy and stealth is well and good, however, you need people who can actually battle when the need arises, rather than lop a few hands off or stab at Trolls feet. Merry and Pippin were useless when Boromir was being slain, and they pretty much proved to be useless thoughout. Monty Pythons 'Black Knight' springs to mind........'c'mere Witch-King, I'll bite yer toes off!'

And anyone who comes back with a pathetic,'yes, but look at what they did achieve' arguement need go and think again. No-one at the Council of Elrond knew the future, so why should they depend on these halflings, who have contributed nothing to the greater good of Middle-Earth, save pipe-weed, and send them off, without even a question as to their use or benefit, to Mordor to dump a gold ring.

Two Men, One Wizard, One Elf, One Dwarf and Four Halflings. FOUR? FOUR? What in the name of blue blazes were they thinking?

Elrond: 'Oh, look, we've actually a couple of spaces going here on the bus trip to destroy Sauron', do you think we should take a couple of lordly Elves or even a few more hardy Dwarves?

Gandalf: 'Hmmm, better still, why not throw in a few more of these cute little fat things with the big, hairy feet. They are totally useless, but might in the end prove themselves.........for I have the foresight!'

Merry & Pippin: 'Take us, take us............where are we going?

GGGGGrrrrrrrrrrrr:(

I am eager for wisdom and insight my friends, especially those who talk on MSN regularly and will obviously enjoy the deliberate thrust of this post:)

[ILLOTRTM]

Call me crazy, but I get the sense you don't like Merry and Pippin much! :rolleyes:

[Anamatar IV]

i agree, If Elrond is really as wise as tolkien made him he would have had Aragorn Take the ring, Gandalf guide them, Legolas and Gimli help in passage through countries, Boromir to help fight and maybe glorfindel, Elronds Sons, and maybe sam to cook for them all.

[HLGStrider]

he would have had Aragorn Take the ring,

Aragorn wouldn't have touched it except under orders, and they wanted a willing bearer. You guys don't have much faith in the little guy... Elrond was against taking the hobbits, but who's to argue with a Maia? Well, maybe an elven king. I don't know what was going through Gandalf's mind, but don't blame Elrond.

At this point Aragorn is still subject to Denethor.

Was he? He was born closer to the unruled side of ME and grew up in Rivendale. There is a weak link by blood, but even Aragorn's ancestors were of Isulder's line, not Anorian's, so I don't think he would be... Calling him so would be a stretch... though I also agree that Aragorn didn't have the easiest throne to gain... due in part to what I've listed before.
Besides that, you can't get around that Aragorn has much more experience that Boromir, and is much handsomer... :D I think a man who'd actually been to Mordor and had served both Rohan and Gondor (Is that why you say he was a subject? His short gun for hire stay?)

Anyway, nobody says mean things about Strider without me pouting...

[Sam_Gamgee]

boromir is not my favorite carchter but hes definently vital to the fellowship

[Ancalagon]

Call me crazy, but I get the sense you don't like Merry and Pippin much!

Whatever made you think that?

BTW, I can't stand Hobbits in general, so don't think I am only picking on Merry and Pippin.

[Gothmog]

Ok, so we have Gandalf; sent by the Valar to assist both Elves and Men in choosing the righteous path, in the face of Sauron. Yet, should he actually be leading? In fact he should be encouraging and driving those among Men and Elves who ought to lead, from behind, as both supporter and advisor? Others are better placed to lead, yet importantly Gandalf should seek to guide and teach.

What is a Guide and a Teacher if not a leader. so as the Wisest of the Fellowship and the one who had the most knowledge, he should have lead the first part of the journey. This would be in my view as far a Lorien. There they would have hoped to gain extra information and then make decisions based on what they knew up to there. Also you must remember that the Fellowship was not made to Destroy the Ring, that was the sole province of the Ring-bearer. Aragorn and Boromir had no intention of going to Mordor, both were bound for Minas Tirih. Strange then to want as a leader one who was going on a different path.


Was he best suited to the task? Surely a king without a throne is no better than a hobbit without a hole? At this point Aragorn is still subject to Denethor. Yes, his credentials are good, but he was not King yet, and those select few who held the fate of Middle-Earth in their hands at the council of Elrond should not so easily have raised him upon a pedestol.

How was Aragorn in any way subject to Denethor. Denethor was the Steward of Gondor. His authority went no further than the boundries of Gondor itself. So then Aragorn was outside his boundries in the first place and in the second he was the Chieftain of the northern Dunedian. This would place him as at the very least equal in rank to Denethor who occupied a similar position in Gondor as he was only Steward not King.


Who knew in advance the thoughts of Boromirs heart? Yet, he had made the journey from Minas Tirith, single-handed. Boromir is a leader of men, his valour, shrewdness and skill both in tactics and battle were well known. He was in actual fact the highest ranked among them, for Aragorn had no rank save that among his own people, who themselves were simply a nomadic tribe of royal blood.

Who cares of the Thoughts of Boromirs' heart? Yes he had made the journey from Minas Tirith, Single-handed. So Aragorn had made many such journies and others including into Mordor. As for Boromirs shrewdness and skill, I would have thought that as Aragorn had fought with the Elves of Rivendel they would have some slight idea of his abilities. Boromir was not the highest ranked among them. Aragorn was the Chieftain of the northern Dunedain, not the heir. Legolas was the son of King Thranduil, Therefore a Prince. Boromir was simply the Heir to the Steward and also had no rank save that among his own people. So we have three people who have some rank. One is the Ruler of his people (Aragorn), one is a Prince and in line for the Throne of his people (Legolas) and one who is in line to be the Steward of his people (Boromir). Therefore by rank, experience knowledge and blood-line we come to Aragorn as the most fit to lead.

I will not discuss the merits or otherwise of the inclusion of the extra Hobbits as that is getting totaly off topic. If you wish to talk about them it needs a new thread. The same goes for the Council of Elrond being a Farce.:cool:

[HLGStrider]

It is interesting that they chose so many people her were planing to leave, anyway.

[Dûndorer]

yea, that is wierd.

[linweyn]

I think so, because thanks of that frodo keep in mind that he can´t trust in nobody, even on his friends!:o :o

[Eonwe]

Boromir certainly should have been in the fellowship, representing the free peoples of middle-earth. The people of Gondor being the usual focal point of the might of Sauron through the Third Age, Boromir was a decendant of the Stewards of Gondor, a representative of Gondor sent by the Steward. It all fits into place.

[HLGStrider]

You might also say that he was a representive of the line of Anorian... as Aragorn was of Isulder... Both sons of Elendil are represented. I'd never thought of that before... How much of Anorian's blood does Boromir have? Does he have any? Anyway, Gondor was Anorian's kingdom, so that all comes down to the same thing... The Rangers were the other barrier against Sauron, as Strider points out. Good point Eowne.

[Ancalagon]

While Aragorn is without a throne he is a King in waiting, therefore he has no real authority over Boromir at this point. Gandalf's role was to seek to drive Men to greater feats, whereby Boromir could easily have been made leader and advised and counciled both by Aragorn and Gandalf. He is still the highest ranked among them.

[Gothmog]

Boromir was not the highest Ranked amongst them.

Aragorn - Chieftain of the Dunedain. No one of his people was higher therefore ranked No1
Logolas - Son of King Thranduil. He was a Prince of the Elves. Ranked No2
Boromir - Son of the Steward of Gondor. A Steward does not hold rank himself as he holds and weilds power only on behalf of another.

[Ancalagon]

Boromir - Captain of the White Tower, therefore a Captain of Gondor. The only recognised serving officer among them.

Aragorn - Chieftain of the Dunedain, who was at one time Thorongil, a Captain of Gondor, but no longer. In the North, the Dunedain were only a remnant and a wandering, disenfranchised people. Yes, he was the rightful heir, but not the highest recognised rank.

Legolas - The equivilant of Prince Charles:)

[HLGStrider]

There is a slight point to that, if you do not like the Dunadain. However, I do not think that a leader should be chosen by rank. Aragorn has forty years over Boromir. He has a couple thousand more miles on his boots, and he was burning Corsairs while Boromir was in his cradle.
I'd say he was highly qualified for the position. Gandalf consulted him as one would consult the second in comand.
He was the only one who knew the way out of Moria.
He was one of the few ones able to get them into Lorien (Legolas and Frodo being the exceptions, but no one is suggesting that Frodo leads).

I'd say Aragorn was the better of the two.

[Gil-Galad]

Yes he should be in the fellowship.
I think that representing the people he had to change his point of view.He believed he can use the ring for the good of Gondor and that's why did so stupid things.
When orcs came he chose death,but not going back a step.So he changed his view before his death.
Everyone who is in the fellowship must be in it.There's a reason for everyone to be there.

[pohuist]

As far as a leader goes, wisdom is often chosen over rank (whatever the latter can be, I am not interested in arguing that point). Aragorn is wiser. He also is already (well, better) known to many members of the fellowship (as opposed to Boromir), so they trust Aragorn better. Also, Aragorn knows the lands and the people (Galadriel & Co.) IMHO, there is no way Boromir could lead the company.

As far as his inclusion, he is essential (not mentioning his valour and everything else) because his actions were the missing component that finally helped Frodo to make his (ultimately proven correct) choice of going alone into Mordor

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Boromir - Captain of the White Tower, therefore a Captain of Gondor. The only recognised serving officer among them.

Aragorn - Chieftain of the Dunedain, who was at one time Thorongil, a Captain of Gondor, but no longer. In the North, the Dunedain were only a remnant and a wandering, disenfranchised people. Yes, he was the rightful heir, but not the highest recognised rank.

Legolas - The equivilant of Prince Charles:)

Recognised by whom?

Boromir was a captain of Gondor and if they had set out from Gondor this would carry some weight. However, it was from Imladris that the Fellowship set out. So as for recognition I would say that the merits of all the members of the fellowship were correctly recognised by Elrond. He would not be swayed be such minor things as Boromir being a Captain of Gondor. Elrond knew not only the lineage of Arogorn but much of his abilies also. Therefore, since the Highest Ranking Person there (Elrond) recognised his rank, Aragorn was the highest ranking of the fellowship.

In addition to this, even Bormir recognised the qualities of Arogorn and when the time came to leave the area around Moria he followed even though he did not like the path. The rest of the fellowship would not have followed Boromir in such a way. So Aragorn took the position of leader after the fall of Gandalf by right and by acceptance of the company.