Why Merry and Pippin???

[Ancalagon]

Why on middle-earth did Merry and Pippin get chosen to join the fellowship? Both of them were useless and realistically added no value to the mission. Now forget the fact that they did go off and have their little adventures well into the book, the fact is that they should never have been allowed to go in the first place.

Remember this is about the Council of Elrond and the choices of the fellowship, so what happens in the future is irrelevant. Another thing, why did none of the other members of the fellowship not disagree with their inclusion, especially Boromir, Legolas and Gimli who knew nothing about these pointless little creatures?


:)Always a pleasure.

[Gothmog]

This is an interesting question as the only thing that these two characters brought to the Fellowship was comic relief. There was no indication of any usefulness other than friendship to the Ring-bearer. A very small point as that was covered by the inclusion of Sam. While Gandalf may well have had some foreknowledge of what they may have been capable of, he gave no arguments to back up his wish at the time.

Indeed, it would seem that the only reason for them to go had infact nothing really to do with the Fellowship, but was concerned with later events after the destruction of the Ring. This is something that only Gandalf could have had any idea about and he chose not to say anything about it.

We do know that Elrond was against their going, but even he did not put up much of an argument against them and the rest said nothing but just accepted it.

I know that future events are deemed to be irrelevant but I am pointing to such events to show that they could not have been part of the decision of any but Gandalf and even that is uncertain.

[Goldberry]

Well, they said they'd have to be tied in a sack to be held back, and Gandalf recommended them because of their friendship. They did come through all kinds of dangers from the Shire to Rivendell with Frodo, so they're courage, fortitude and loyalty was already proven. Who would, after going through what they had, still want to go on but the stoutest, most loyal and devouted friends? I don't think many would still want to go on, after what they had been through. I give them a lot of credit for that.

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Why on middle-earth did Merry and Pippin get chosen to join the fellowship? Well... I think it had something to do with the hour of the shire-folk arriving...

A time when they would arise and shake the foundations of the counsels of the wise...

A time when the might of men and the wisdom of the elves would prove to be inadequate to solve the crisis of the age....

Basically Eru is trying to send out a message to men and elves:

(paraphrased)

"You guys are overcome with pride, therefore I will humble you. I will prove to you that you are helpless to save yourselves against the threat of Sauron-- unless I intervene. At the same time, I will also show you that Sauron's fearsome devices and plans can be completely unwound and broken by the influence of 6 "weak", "insignificant", unknown hobbits-- and that though evil seems to reign in the world, it's really insignificant when compared to the might of the One that framed the heavens. So don't glory in your own greatness-- all that you have is a gift from me, anyway-- and don't waste your time fearing the enemy. Rather, trust in me and glory only in me... the way the Numenoreans once did...."

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Goroshimura
Well... I think it had something to do with the hour of the shire-folk arriving...

A time when they would arise and shake the foundations of the counsels of the wise...

A time when the might of men and the wisdom of the elves would prove to be inadequate to solve the crisis of the age....

Basically Eru is trying to send out a message to men and elves:

(paraphrased)

"You guys are overcome with pride, therefore I will humble you. I will prove to you that you are helpless to save yourselves against the threat of Sauron-- unless I intervene. At the same time, I will also show you that Sauron's fearsome devices and plans can be completely unwound and broken by the influence of 6 "weak", "insignificant", unknown hobbits-- and that though evil seems to reign in the world, it's really insignificant when compared to the might of the One that framed the heavens. So don't glory in your own greatness-- all that you have is a gift from me, anyway-- and don't waste your time fearing the enemy. Rather, trust in me and glory only in me... the way the Numenoreans once did...."

And all of this was done quite effectivly by TWO "weak","insignificant", unknown hobbits-- Frodo and Sam. So why the two clowns?

[Goldberry]

Maybe Merry & Pippin were needed so that later, when they returned to the Shire, they could rise to the occasion and clean it up and be the new Shire leaders. Remember Gandalf said it was what they were trained for.

[Talimon]

It's made quite clear by Gandalf: He claims that it would be wiser to trust in thier friendship then in wise council. Besides, as he points out, two small hobbits are as likely to do good as 2 great elf warriors. Ideally the fellowship would never have had to pick up arms.

Even though it might have not been the greatest of wisdom to send them along, one thing that is deffinitely true is that they ended up benefitting the war greatly. Had they not gone, the Orcs would have never captured them, and likewise they would never reach Treebeard. And if the Ents weren't awoken, Isengard wouldn't be transformed, and likewise Rohan would have had another hard battle to fight after Helm's Deep. This would delay them from helping Minas Tirith, which in turn would result in the downfall of Minas Tirith, and most likely the destruction of the West.

Seen in this light, they served as big a role as anyone else in the Fellowship; surely greater then Legolas, Gimili, or Boromir. Other then waking the ents, there are also the smaller things: touching the seeing stone (confusing Sauron), stabbing the Nazgul. These all add up to create much achievement for two small hobbits.

[Gamil Zirak]

Ok. Here's the deal. Sauron knew that a hobbit had the ring. They (this includes Sam) were to serve as decoys. Only Sauron and the ringwraiths knew which one actually had the ring. None of his other minions did. Just look what happened when the orcs attacked and killed Boromir. They took the wrong hobbits because their orders were to bring back the halflings.

[Ancalagon]

Just look what happened when the orcs attacked and killed Boromir. They took the wrong hobbits because their orders were to bring back the halflings.

See now you are simply predicting the future. If you were at the council, would you not have made this point rather than simply saying, 'come ahead there ya wee munchkins and join the fray'.

They are pointless and serve no purpose for the greater good of the missions objective.

[Gamil Zirak]

That's not predicting the future. I'm just backing up my point. The only reason to bring them along was either to serve as decoys or because Elrond didn't want them hanging around his house all the time. Since the later was a joke, the first must be true.

[JeffF.]

Merry and Pippin were key in the intervention of Treebeard and the Ents/Huorns. Merry assisted Eowyn in killing the Lord of the Nazgul and Pippin killed the Troll chieftain that overcame Beregond at the Black gate. In many ways they accomplished more than Gimli and Legolas, both of whom have very few accomplishments.

[Gamil Zirak]

JeffF. - I think you misread the question. Ancalagon wrote:
Remember this is about the Council of Elrond and the choices of the fellowship, so what happens in the future is irrelevant.

We aren't considering what happened after the Council of Elrond as a basis for why they were selected.

[Camille]

good question, but they were included because Gandalfa trusted them, he trusted more in frienship than in the power of a migthy warrior.
and about Boromir, legolas and Gimli saying nothing about it:
Legolas and Boromir probably trusted the choices of Elrond.
And Gimli he knew by his father that hobbits can be very good company, His father adventure was saved a lot of times by a hobbit named Bilbo :D

[Lantarion]

Yes, it is friendship that brings counsel in difficult times rather than knowledge. Although ideas brought on by love or friendship are sometimes rash and too quick, they are meant for good so they can never go wholly wrong.
I also think that the hobbits had no clear mission in the Fellowship. Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn with Boromir represented the three races, working in co-operation to achieve a mutual goal. Frodo was the (self-) 'appointed' Ringbearer, Sam was his aide, Gandalf offered magical and moral support.. so what about Merry and Pippin? What was their goal to achieve in the Fellowship? They didn't need any more Hobbit-representatives, as they already had two. They didn't have any real physical or psychological value in themselves. So no, they didn't really have any other reason to be there other then to perk Frodo into really feeling he wanted and needed to achieve his quest.
Of course, I personally believe that Gandalf, being a Maia and all, had some foresight in this matter and felt that it was time fo the 'little'people, the secluded and comfortable inhabitants of Middle-Earth to get something done, both for themselves and for the 'greater good'. He was very fond of hobbits, especially the ones he knew personally, and wanted to be sure that at least four of them would cut it in the arriving New World of Men and big, strapping warriors.

[Goldberry]

Originally posted by Pontifex

Of course, I personally believe that Gandalf, being a Maia and all, had some foresight in this matter and felt that it was time fo the 'little'people, the secluded and comfortable inhabitants of Middle-Earth to get something done, both for themselves and for the 'greater good'. He was very fond of hobbits, especially the ones he knew personally, and wanted to be sure that at least four of them would cut it in the arriving New World of Men and big, strapping warriors.

I agree, Gandalf was always feeling out the future, even if he couldn't see it. His heart told him Gollum had a part to play in the ring, for good or ill. I think his heart also told him Merry & Pippin had a part to play in the quest, and that friendship should guide the decision. Except for Boromir, I don't think any of the others would question Elrond & Gandalf. I don't think the members of the quest were of much concern to Boromir, so he would not object.

[Gothmog]

So why did Gandalf not explain his reasons to Elrond and the rest of the Fellowship. Even if as you say, Boromir was not interested, I would have thought that the rest would have been.

[Ancalagon]

Yes, it is friendship that brings counsel in difficult times rather than knowledge.

Why then do I not recall anyone ever asking their opinion?

[tookish-girl]

Why Merry and Pippin?

Because Frodo had a massive burden to carry and Gandalf knew it. He also knew it would be easier to bear with his friends around him. This is not just Sam but Merry and Pippin too. Remember that Merry is there with Frodo at the end of the party in BAg End trying to clear out Lobelia, they were just as close as him and Sam.
Also if Elrond had got his way, they just would have been sent home packing, how would that have made Frodo feel? I think Gandalf realised he would miss them terribly if they were just packed off and sent back to the Shire, especially after supporting him so far, so said they should go too.
He thought it didn't matter they weren't exactly the brains of Britain (though Merry is quite smart sometimes, look at the bridge incident in Buckland) their companionship was important for Frodo's morale.

[Ancalagon]

TG, that's all very fluffy and sweet, but the fact is that a dangerous journey was ahead, carrying the One Ring, along roads that would be watched and they would most likely be waylaid at some point. So what better defence of this 'tool of armagedden', that to have 2 little hobbits skipping alongside 2 others?
It just don't add up.

[Niniel]

I think Gandalf was very important in making this decision; he persuaded Elrond to let Merry and Pippin come. I guess Gandalf had a feeling that they would get important later (he often has such feelings), and that he realized that the friendship of Merry and Pippin would be a great help to Frodo. Gandalf could not really explain this feeling, but Elrond knew that it is best to follow Gandalf's advice in a lot of things. He knew also that if they were to get to Mordor they had to be as secret as possible, and if they would take two Elven warriors they would draw too much attention to themselves.

[Wonko The Sane]

First of all let's ignore the fact that Merry and Pippin are delightfully cute and entertaining. That's OBVIOUSLY the reason why Elrond let them go.

But other than that there are other reasons.
For example...they're too little and stupid to get all the way back to the Shire by themselves.

So Elrond would've had to let them stay with him and he probalby didn't want them too. He just couldn't handle all the cuteness and entertainment.

Plus, he might have wanted them killed. I think he was jealous of their beauty.

Elrond's evil like that.

[wonko]

i am totally inclined to agree with you wonko the sane... its only because they were so cute and stuff.... however, i think pippin and merry's comedic value were taken into effect....

`WHAT ABOUT SECOND BREAKFAST!?

BTW, nice name sane

[Wonko The Sane]

Isn't Pippin adorable when he's all: "They come in pints?!"

I think they should have let Pippin carry that One Ring thing...

[wonko]

nah, he would've messed everything up... he looked into the palantir... he's weak!!! funny, but weak so i dont think he wouldve been able to survive the hardships of the ring as long as frodo... plus who would be there to look like a little pimp in the armor he gets..... i dont think frodo could pull it off as well and if frodo switched then sam would too so merry would have to go with pippin and thats just dumb because merry is smarter than pippin and it wouldnt work for the ringbearer to have to answer to some knowitall...

blahblahblah ... memo to self- SHUT UP!!

[Walter]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
...and sometimes a flyswatter is the tool of choice...

---
So why were Merry and Pippin chosen to join the fellowship? I think - from the historical point of view - the question should rather be: Why did they remain in the fellowship...

[Oren]

I don't think that they should've been chosen eather! I mean they kind of just showed up and got Frodo and Sam in trouble. They only get into difficult situations and are in the way. I mean no affence to anybody but they almost shouldn't have been included in the book. But, without them Srider might not Frodo and the others.

[tookish-girl]

I think that Anc has a bit of a bee in his bonnet about our beloved Mezza and Pipsy, don't you? My valid claim about them been their as extra friendship for Frodo was dismissed as "fluffy".
Now, isn't Tolkien writing about the hobbits? Isn't their fellowship (Note the word!) an important part of this novel? Isn't the idea of novels (this is a book, just to remind you there!) about character developement? In life, you might pick the beefy, boring, wannabe kings and lords and important people, but maybe, just maybe, Tolkien was writng about the seemingly insignificant ones too.

There I'm getting off my soapbox now.....

Pip for President!

[tookish-girl]

I'm assuming that since I've had the last word on this thread for so long now, that it means i won the argument. Hoorah for the insignificant ones!

[tookish-girl]

I feel it my sworn duty to say: Baths.

It is to do with this argument, one of the reasons Pippin is so cool is his constant desire to have a nice hot bath.

We love you Pippin!

[Oren]

Who says Pippin is the best? Huh? I think not tookish-girl. I do not like Pippin. I think he is fine but I DO NOT LOVE HIM, THINK HE IS SWEET, OR ANY OTHER LITTLE THING LIKE THAT!!! And no offence taken what soever, plz!

[Landroval]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
TG, that's all very fluffy and sweet, but the fact is that a dangerous journey was ahead, carrying the One Ring, along roads that would be watched and they would most likely be waylaid at some point. So what better defence of this 'tool of armagedden', that to have 2 little hobbits skipping alongside 2 others?
It just don't add up.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree completely. Frodo was the only one that was tasked with destroying the ring. Everyone at the council KNEW that it was completely up to him to accomplish or not. The others were told that they could accompany him as far as they wished, but no one was required to go all the way. Frodo was the "man" (or Hobbit) and that was that.

In this light, it becomes clear that everything must be done to help Frodo in his task. Including Merry and Pippin provided Frodo with close friends that would ease his mind and provide comfortable companionship. All the rest of the fellowship (except, perhaps, for Gandalf) had no real commitment to see it through to the end. Merry and Pippin had no other agendas that would distract them. Had they never been abducted by the orcs, they would have undoubtably been at Frodo's side at Mount Doom. You can't say that about Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli or Boromir. Frodo knew and was assured of the commitment of Merry and Pippen and this provide great support - something he needed most.

Hardly fluffy.

[Gil-Galad]

I think nobody but Gandalf has a reason to take Merry and Pippin with the others from the fellowship.For example Gandalf says that he feels Gollum is going to be of great importance later.The same would be for Merry and Pippin.In fact they're of great importance for the fellowship.If weren't they,who would make problems all the time and who would be askin for breakfast,second breakfast,lunch,dinner,supper..etc?:p

[DGoeij]

I agree on the friendship argument. It was not a quest that would have been fulfilled with physical strenght and mighty weapons. Elrond and Gandalf knew, Aragorn understood, I guess Legolas as well. Gimli could have known that there's more to a hobbit that meets the eye and Boromir was allready amazed by the sheer respect that was shown to Bilbo by the very mighty.
So why not add the plain loyalty of Merry and Pippin to the support of Frodo, being the most important thing that htis Fellowship needed?

Last word for now:
Ook

[Eledhwen]

Merry and Pippin were more than just loyal companions (important though that is);

If Merry and Pippin had not been with the fellowship or got themselves kidnapped, they would not have roused the Ents against Saruman, who would have done great damage to the armies of Gondor. Victory over Sauron was brought about because of Frodo/Gollum; but the losses may have been fatal to the Kingdom. Also, different survivors may have decided different battle strategies ("and maybe" said Imrahil "the road that leads thence to the pass above will prove an easier way of assault upon teh Dark Lord than his northern gate.") which may have drawn attention to Frodo's quest.

If Merry had not stowed away to Gondor, then Eowyn would not have slain the Chief of the Nazgul, he would have slain her; the hoards of Mordor would not have been discouraged, and the Witch King would have prevailed because Gandalf had to go and deal with Denethor.

If Pippin had not been at Mordor, Beregond would have been slain by a Troll-Chief, and probably many others besides.

And let's not forget the scouring of the Shire. It was the battle-wise Merry and Pippin who arrayed the hobbits so that they could defeat Sharkey's men.

[Gamil Zirak]

Eledhwen- Read this quote from the first post.
Originally posted by Ancalagon
Remember this is about the Council of Elrond and the choices of the fellowship, so what happens in the future is irrelevant. Another thing, why did none of the other members of the fellowship not disagree with their inclusion, especially Boromir, Legolas and Gimli who knew nothing about these pointless little creatures?

We are supposed to disregard the actions that happened after the council of Elrond.

[Ancalagon]

Exactly Gamil; all those who are argueing their inclusion based on events afterwards may go back and rethink!

It is to do with this argument, one of the reasons Pippin is so cool is his constant desire to have a nice hot bath.

If you have travelled in stealth with a company the idea of bathing becomes figment of your past existence. In order to avoid attracting the attention of scent-sniffing Orcs it would be prudent to avoid bathing altogther while in open transit. The more one smells like the environment they are in the better.

I bet Gandalf, Boromir, Gimli and Aragorn stank of B.O., muck and ingrained dirt, while Hobbits worried about the subtleness of their skin and the cleanliness of their fingernails. Elves I can't imagine ever smell; it's so un-elf-like:)

I would have ditrched ald the Hobbits, though sadly Frodo had the ring so he had to go, Sam, Merry and Pippin should all have been left behind.

[DGoeij]

I thought it was quite clear by the time of the Council of Elrond, that Hobbits are remarkable beings, able to withstand heavy endurance and still keep their wits, as was prove by Bilbo during his travels and his possesion of the Ring and the events of the journey of the four Hobbits to Rivendell.
Also some seem to neglect the importance of loyalty/friendship in a quest like this. Why?
It was also clear that the succes of the quest would not be in the use of weapons, but in secrecy and it would be a journey of much effort. Sounds like the skills of a hobbit would be vital and apperantly Gandalf thought it was a good idea, with the approval of Elrond. Not exactly known for their stupidity at the time.

[Eledhwen]

Sorry, didn't read the beginning of the thread (not even sure how I arrived at it!). Maybe it should appear at the top of each page so lazy surfers like me don't get irrelevant.

[Theoden]

We all do dumb things... most of the time they turn out for harm or making us look like idiots. But once in a while, they'll turn around and do good. Elrond got lucky.

[Gil-Galad]

I found something in The Hobbit which can explain why Merry and Pippin:
"Gandalf answered angrily:"I brought him,and I don't bring things that are of no use. ..."
That's about Bilbo.So..Gandalf takes part in the fellowship and he's its leader.I think that if Merry and Pippin weren't of any need ,they wouldn't be taken with the others.Let's say that Gandalf has thought about their usefullness.Just like Gollum.Gandalf knows that Gollum is following them but does nothing cause he feels Gollum would be of great importance later.The same would be for Merry and Pippin.They're taken cause they would be of ANY use.For example their contact with Treebeard is of great importance and the killing of the Nazguls' Chief.

[Gamil Zirak]

Gil-Gilad - You're missing the point of the post. We are only concidering what is known at the council of elrond.

I still feel that they were taken along as decoys.

[Theataris]

couldn't it be as simple as "the more the merrier"?
you never know when 2 extra pairs of hands may come in handy (what a horrible pun)

[DGoeij]

Gamil. the story of the Hobbit was chronologically before the Council of Elrond.
So what had happened during that time was well known in Rivendell one might expect. So Gandalf insisting on bringing Merry and Pippin was accepted maybe because he usually seemed to know what he was doing and Hobbits had proven their worth before.

And bringing them as decoys might not be a bad idea, but it somehow doesn't strike me as something Gandalf would do.

[Wonko The Sane]

Gandalf was very powerful. He said to Frodo in the beginning that Gollum may be of some help to them yet or something or other.
Perhaps he knew, in a vague non-specific way, that Merry and Pippin would be integral in the quest and that they would do great things along the way.