Ring invisibility a side effect?

[Úlairi]

I am interested as to if Ring invisibility shows that the wearer has neither the will nor the power to control the Ring that he/she bears. Here are a few quotes:

"'In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were , of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.
'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye if the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.'"

Gandalf says here that the lesser rings were still dangerous for mortals and that the Great Rings were 'perilous'. I interpret this as the fact that a mortal wearer had neither the strength, power or will to control its power, therefore going invisible as a "side-effect" if you will.

The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.

Now here it says that the Dwarves could not be 'turned to shadows'. There are many ways to interpret this such as that they could not be turned to evil. We know that a mortal wearer of the One or the Nine would turn invisible. Is this because they lacked the power or the will to control that specific Ring? Well, that is my question. I interpret this as the fact that the Seven did not render the wearer invisible as the Dwarf-wearer could not be 'turned to shadows' therefore not going into the spirit-realm that a Great Ring usually sends its wearer to.

Men proved easier to ensnare. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered, into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.

Well, the Nine turned invisible because of the Rings that Sauron gave them. Were they rendered invisible because of the fact that they had neither the will nor the power to control them? That is what I wish to know. I believe that the Elves were not rendered invisible by the Great Rings because of the fact that they were present in both the physical and spirit-realms, as they were immortal. Therefore, I believe it is safe to say that if a mortal wore one of the Three, he/she too, would turn invisible.

They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun...

Now take not that it says if they would. Now, those who disagree with my argument may say that 'if they would' means that they could choose not to turn invisible. I completely disagree. No where is it recorded in any of Tolkien's writings that a mortal wearer of one of the Twenty Rings of Power did not turn invisible.

...and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men...

This is also suggestive that they went to the 'shadow-realm' or 'spirit-realm'.

From Letter #131 to Milton Waldman of Collins Publishing, written sometime in 1951. It states, in part...

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i. e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

Now this quote may look like that my argument has been shot down in flames. I posted it because I knew Grond would use it to disprove my argument/theory (haha Grond ). But, no where does it say that Ring invisiblity showed that the wearer had the will or power to control it, therefore my theory/argument cannot be disproved (by this quote).

...such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

Now we know that Sauron had a part in the making of all the Rings of Power, save the Three. I am suggesting perhaps a mortal wearer of a Great Ring was rendered invisible as he/she showed a lack of power or will to control that specific Ring. Perhaps Sauron used this idea to gain those who bore them under his dominion? I think so. I think invisibility is just more than a "side-effect", it was a way to gain those who bore them under his dominion. So, could Ring invisibility show that a mortal wearer had neither the will nor the power to control it? I think so.

[Ice Man]

I always thought it was a side-effect too.

[QueenBeruthiel]

By 'side effect', do you mean as an unintended feature of the ring, that the maker did not create the ring for the purpose of granting invisibility, and that invisibility only occured in a wearer 'unfit' or without the power to properly wield it?

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by QueenBeruthiel
By 'side effect', do you mean as an unintended feature of the ring, that the maker did not create the ring for the purpose of granting invisibility, and that invisibility only occured in a wearer 'unfit' or without the power to properly wield it?

Originally posted by Ulairi
Perhaps Sauron used this idea to gain those who bore them under his dominion? I think so. I think invisibility is just more than a "side-effect", it was a way to gain those who bore them under his dominion.

If you would kindly read all of my posts from now on, you will see that I have covered this QueenBeruthiel. I think it was intended. Very much so, it was a way for Sauron to control them by...

Originally posted by Ulairi but a quote from The Lord of the Rings: The Council of Elrond
...but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron.

...using the means of seeing his (Sauron's) phantoms and delusion, proving them...

Originally posted by Ulairi but a quote from The Lord of the Rings: The Council of Elrond
...easier to ensnare.

And there you have it QueenBeruthiel. I answered your question through the first post in this thread...mine. :eek:

[QueenBeruthiel]

okay okay, ouch. No need to be so harsh. I just didn't get what you were driving at.

I see what you are saying, that by wearing the ring and becoming invisible, the bearer enters a 'spirit world' of sorts, and are able to percieve His "phantoms and illusions", therefore gaining power over that bearer.

But in your first post, you seem to imply that all of the rings were similiar in their powers and effects, and that any of the Rings would produce the same outcomes on a weak wearer. I had always assumed that the One was different, it's power surpassing those of the lesser rings. Frodo tried to offload the One onto two of the the bearers of the Three, who both refused, afraid of the outcomes of such a move.

Do you think that a hobbit in possession of one of the Three, or Seven would have suffered the same effects i.e. invisibility and all its implications, as those provided by the One ring?

[Niniel]

I always thought that if you were strong enough to control the Rings, then you could make yourself visible while wearing it. Becausd ethen you cpuld cotrol all teh powers that the Rings have, so also the power to make someone invisible. So in that case being invisible while wearing it, is a sign of your inability to control it.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by QueenBeruthiel
okay okay, ouch. No need to be so harsh. I just didn't get what you were driving at.

That's alright if you don't understand me QueenBeruthiel! :p

Originally posted by QueenBeruthiel
I see what you are saying, that by wearing the ring and becoming invisible, the bearer enters a 'spirit world' of sorts, and are able to percieve His "phantoms and illusions", therefore gaining power over that bearer.

That's about it. A good summary.

Originally posted by QueenBeruthiel
But in your first post, you seem to imply that all of the rings were similiar in their powers and effects, and that any of the Rings would produce the same outcomes on a weak wearer.

We do not know of the powers and effects of each Ring. All that I know is that the Nine and the One were very similar, whereas the Three and the Seven, we do not know much of.

[I]Originally posted by QueenBeruthiel[I]
I had always assumed that the One was different, it's power surpassing those of the lesser rings.

You assumed correctly. The One was much more powerful however, than the others. I belive it had fairly much the same effect as the Nine, but the One when used by Sauron himself, being the master, I believe the Ring's true power would have been shown. However, as I said, on a mortal, I believe the Nine and the One had very much the same effect. However, the One did not put the bearer under the dominion of Sauron, as the Nine and the Seven and the Three did, because it was the Ruling Ring, and made by Sauron himself. Thw Ring IMO could deceive and try to draw them to Sauron, but the Nine for instance made them fall under the dominion of Sauron, this was different with the One. I will elaborate more if you do not comprehend.

Originally posted by QueenBeruthiel
Do you think that a hobbit in possession of one of the Three, or Seven would have suffered the same effects i.e. invisibility and all its implications, as those provided by the One ring?

No, they would all have different effects. The Nine would put a hobbit under the dominion of Sauron, of the Seven, not much is told. Of the Three, they did not confer invisibility like the other Rings, it is said in The Letters of JRRT. So, there you have it QueenBeruthiel.

[QueenBeruthiel]

Why thank you, gallant Ulairi! I am curious as to why you then asked the question, since you obviously believe you know THE answer:rolleyes:

[Úlairi]

The question was in a nutshell: 'Does the conferrance of invisibilty from a Ring of Power show that the bearer has neither the strength nor the will to control it?'. Not: 'What is the power of the Rings?'. QueenBeruthiel, it would be much appreciated if you read the question given properly, and reply to it, instead of straying off-topic. ****Edited by Beorn***

[Ancalagon]

Beorn, it's edited, not editted.

Hehehe, I shouldn't be encouraging you, but what the hell:)

Before I post a reply, I would suggest you look at this debate and consider the content therein.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1050

Regards

[Úlairi]

I skim-read it, and it is not the answer to my question nor is it to have anything to really do with my topic Anc. So, I beg you, post! I posted this on the previous page to Queen Beruthiel, and it shows the true nature of my thread. Personally, I believe the topic to be too intellectually daunting for most members on the forum. That is why I have asked you Anc. Here is the quote:

Originally posted by Ulairi
The question was in a nutshell: 'Does the conferrance of invisibilty from a Ring of Power show that the bearer has neither the strength nor the will to control it?'. Not: 'What is the power of the Rings?'.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ulari
You assumed correctly. The One was much more powerful however, than the others. I belive it had fairly much the same effect as the Nine, but the One when used by Sauron himself, being the master, I believe the Ring's true power would have been shown. However, as I said, on a mortal, I believe the Nine and the One had very much the same effect. However, the One did not put the bearer under the dominion of Sauron, as the Nine and the Seven and the Three did, because it was the Ruling Ring, and made by Sauron himself. Thw Ring IMO could deceive and try to draw them to Sauron, but the Nine for instance made them fall under the dominion of Sauron, this was different with the One. I will elaborate more if you do not comprehend.And once again you show your ignorance on the subject of Ring Lore. There is no distinction made between the nine and the seven. They were all Rings of the same make and design (except each had its own distinct stone). No where in the works is it stated that these Rings were made for dwarves and these Rings made for Man. Only the Three and the One are talked of in detail. The other 16 Rings were all originally Elvish Rings of Power. They all had different powers but with the same goal in mind (the slowing of the decays of time). The Seven, the Nine or the One all had the effect of invisibility. I know this because the author stated it very clearly in posts that you've already cited. Also, Sauron, absent the Ruling Ring, would have no power over anyone who wore the Nine or the Seven. They would be able to wield those Rings of Power per their original intent. They were tied to the One Ring directly... not to Sauron.The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i. e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visibleI also would like to comment on your horrendous treatment of QueenBeruthiel. Our intent in posting these threads is to inform and discuss with "good will". Your posts to her showed none of those traits. If you want a "nasty" debate... be prepared. I would also suggest you read the link that Anc provided you in depth and not just skim it. Most of what you question is answered there. BTW, invisibility is not a side-effect of wearing any of the Great Rings. The Three do not confer invisibility at all and the other 16 Rings of Power, as well as the Ruling Ring confer invisibility as a trait not an effect. Any mortal who wears one of these 17 Rings will walk in the "other world."

[Grond]

No Ulari... let's try this all over again. I will think very hard on this subject and post an informed and intelligent answer on this over the weekend. I do want you to try to think before you post and try and project how it will make others feel. There is no need to be mean or nasty. Our goal is to educate and not intimidate. Let's all get along and welcome even some one who may be uninformed into any thread.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
And once again you show your ignorance on the subject of Ring Lore.

And this is coming from someone who has been constantly PMing me asking me to be his friend again. Ignorance? I have studied the topic endlessly Grond, and know a great deal about it. Ring Lore has always been one of my specialities.

Originally posted by Grond
There is no distinction made between the nine and the seven. They were all Rings of the same make and design (except each had its own distinct stone).

I know this, why are you telling me?

Originally posted by Grond
No where in the works is it stated that these Rings were made for dwarves and these Rings made for Man. Only the Three and the One are talked of in detail.

Who's the ignorant one now, take one guess Grond, it's you! Perhaps you are not familiar with the poem that Tolkien himself wrote. Here it is:


"Three Rings for the Elven-Kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men, doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in thw darkness bind them
In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."


Here is a quote from "The Shadow of the Past":

"'No,' said Gandalf, 'but I can. The letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor, which I will not utter here. But this in the Common Tongue is what is said, close enough:

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

It is only two lines of a verse long known in Elven-lore:...'"

Now, Gandalf said it was part of Elven-lore. So, the Elves recognized the Rings of Power aka the Seven and the Nine being habded to other races ie the Dwarves and Men. Even though all the Rings of Power were made in Eregion by the Elven-smiths and Celebrimbor. So, they were made by Elves, but made for Dwarves and Men, and they made Three for themselves. Who's the ignorant one now???

Originally posted by Grond[I]
Only the Three and the One are talked of in detail. The other 16 Rings were all originally Elvish Rings of Power.

Need I say anymore?

They all had different powers but with the same goal in mind (the slowing of the decays of time). The Seven, the Nine or the One all had the effect of invisibility.

I am amazed that someone so ignorant, such as myself, could know all this! Don't you find it amazing Grond?

Originally posted by Grond
The Seven, the Nine or the One all had the effect of invisibility. I know this because the author stated it very clearly in posts that you've already cited. Also, Sauron, absent the Ruling Ring, would have no power over anyone who wore the Nine or the Seven.

Couldn't agree more my friend. However, Sauron had the Nine in Barad-dur. He controlled them without the One in his possession. Therefore, we know for certain that the One controls the Nine, but when the person/thing is finally subject to the specific Ring's power, he becomes under the dominion of Sauron. Therefore, you are entirel correct in what you are saying, and I'm glad someone knows what they're talking about.

Originally posted by Grond
They would be able to wield those Rings of Power per their original intent. They were tied to the One Ring directly... not to Sauron.

You summed it up pretty well, couldn't agree with you more Grond. But, there is one quote from "The Shadow of the Past" that makes it unclear as whether or not Sauron ruled the Rings of Power, or the One Ring ruled the other Rings of Power. Here is the quote:

"'And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he [I]fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, [B]and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.'"

Now, I believe that Tolkien is referring to Sauron here. Making logical deductions from the quote, the argument that the One Ring ruled the Rings of Power becomes clouded, even when this quote says it loud and clear:

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

So, was Sauron the ruler of the Rings? Or was it the One? Well, it is hard to clarify now, wouldn't you say so Grond?[

QUOTE]Originally posted by Grond
If you want a "nasty" debate... be prepared.[/QUOTE]

I do not want to get in your bad books once more, and I'm sure it is vice versa (I hope). So, therefore, of course I don't want a nasty debate.

I await your next post and look forward to your answer. I remain Ulairi, your friend (I hope).

Ulairi.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Ulairi


they were made by Elves, but made for Dwarves and Men, and they made Three for themselves.

Granted, I am not as well versed in Ring-Lore as either yourself or Grond; and I only have the what is presented in LotR and the Sil to base any conclusions on. But the ring situation does not sit well with me. I was under the impression that the rings were not made especial for the other races, but were distributed to them by Sauron in his attempt to gain dominance over them. Why should the Elves wish to create rings of power the would either turn the intended bearers into wraiths or intesify the lust for gold? This seems a very ignoble thing indeed.

Please forgive this intrusion if I have made my assupmtions in error. Perhaps either or both of you could clear this up for me.

Thank you
RD

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Rangerdave


Granted, I am not as well versed in Ring-Lore as either yourself or Grond; and I only have the what is presented in LotR and the Sil to base any conclusions on. But the ring situation does not sit well with me. I was under the impression that the rings were not made especial for the other races, but were distributed to them by Sauron in his attempt to gain dominance over them. Why should the Elves wish to create rings of power the would either turn the intended bearers into wraiths or intesify the lust for gold? This seems a very ignoble thing indeed.

Please forgive this intrusion if I have made my assupmtions in error. Perhaps either or both of you could clear this up for me.

Thank you
RD

RD, your confusion has hit the nail right on the head. They were distributed by Sauron. The Elves did not do so. However, what I'd like to know is why the Elves would make a verse about their Rings being stolen. And another thing, as they did make the verse, why didn't they mention Sauron stealing them???

[Grond]

Copied from The Unfinished Tales, Or Galadriel and Celeborn,
When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion. The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion. At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose. [It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A (III) to The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into possession of the Dwarves.] Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.

I will research more on the issue of the disposition of the Rings. This makes it sound as if the Nine and the Three were definately in Elvish keeping. Maybe the seven were already bestowed to the Dwarves. I will look and post later.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Ulairi
RD?


The only honest answer I can give you is that I don't know.
RD

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond


I will research more on the issue of the disposition of the Rings. This makes it sound as if the Nine and the Three were definately in Elvish keeping. Maybe the seven were already bestowed to the Dwarves. I will look and post later.

Hmmm, does seems as though that may be the case. Thanks for the quote Grond. I thought you were going to attempt to rip my post apart. But I knew that you couldn't. :p

[Grond]

I have been very busy because of many personal matters. I have begun selling off my mother's estate and have had closings on several properties. I have bought a new home (rather than building one as we originally planned), we are now selling our old home. I start a new job on Monday. That is what has taken my time. I am close to losing my #1 posting status here so you can rest assured that I will pick up my posting pace with intelligent and insightful posts.

Addressing a few of the issues still unresolved:
I am not sure that the One Ring to Rule Them All is an Elf poem. The initial One Ring to rule them all... One Ring to find them them... One Ring to bring them all... And in the darkness bind them... is actually written on the Ring by Sauron. That part of the rhyme couldn't have been composed by the Elves as they didn't even know about the One Ring until after is was made. So I'm not sure the entire Poem was written at the time the Rings were forged. It seems as something made up by the Elves much later after Sauron had distributed the 16 Elf Rings. It is also not a far stretch to think that possibly Celebrimbor would have given Durin one of the Rings since his realm of Moria was right next to (what was then) Celebrimbor's realm. (He had already sent Celebrimbor and Galadriel packing.)

The 19 Elf Rings were all subservient to the One Ring and not to Sauron. Sauron exercised his power over the Ringwraiths not because he controlled them directly but because he controlled them indirectly through his holding their Rings himself. It was for that very reason that he couldn't give the nine to others to create new Ringwraiths. If he gave them up... he would lose control.

That is all I have for now. I have not been able to research in depth in UT, Sil or HoMe yet... but will look tonight. I hope this is enough for you to rejoin the debate. Sorry it's taking me so long to reply.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
I have been very busy because of many personal matters. I have begun selling off my mother's estate and have had closings on several properties. I have bought a new home (rather than building one as we originally planned), we are now selling our old home. I start a new job on Monday. That is what has taken my time.

That is perfectly fine Grond. Selling off her estate? My apologies if I am being nosy, but did she pass away? If so, my most sincere condolences for you and your family.

Originally posted by Grond
I am close to losing my #1 posting status here so you can rest assured that I will pick up my posting pace with intelligent and insightful posts.

And modest ones I hope too! Yes, you are about to lose it, to me, and I'll be the number one poster and my dream will finally be fulfilled! Muhahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Originally posted by Grond
I am not sure that the One Ring to Rule Them All is an Elf poem. The initial One Ring to rule them all... One Ring to find them them... One Ring to bring them all... And in the darkness bind them... is actually written on the Ring by Sauron.

Originally posted by Grond
Addressing a few of the issues still unresolved:

And there are a few things to be resolved in your (I was going to say ignorant, but then I read between the lines and saw where you were coming from Grond) post my dear friend. Yes, they were written on the Ring by Sauron, that is definitive, however, we do know for certain that it was an Elvish poem. I will post the quote again:

"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

It is only two lines of a verse long known in Elven-lore:"
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring: The Shadow of the Past

Gandalf himself says it was Elvish lore in which it was remembered. Note: It says 'long known'. Now this doesn't really suggest anything, but it puts a cloud of doubt over the subject and doesn't make it clear that the poem itself was even Elvish. 'Long known' could mean two things:

1. It was written by the Elves and it was incoporated into their 'lore' and became 'long known'.

2. It was written by an anonymous author, the Elves discovered it and again it was incorporated into their 'lore' and it became 'long known'.

Now, the second possibility doesn't sound very convincing and it begs the question:

"Who wrote the poem?"

So, as you have said Grond, we do not know for certain, however, in my own opinion, the first option sounds more of a likely one.

Originally posted by Grond
That part of the rhyme couldn't have been composed by the Elves as they didn't even know about the One Ring until after is was made.

Grond, you seem to show a either ignorance and/or a lack of imagination. We do not know for sure that the Elves did not write this particular section of the poem. I will quote again:


"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

It is only two lines of a verse long known in Elven-lore:"
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring: The Shadow of the Past

To be quite frank, blunt and honest with you, it seems pretty self-explanatory to me. It appears as though the Elves did write it. Your argument about the time can be easily shot down in an instant. We do not know when the poem was written, for all we know it could have been written post-c. 1600 SA, not pre (the defintion of the prefix being used in this context). If you do not now what I mean about post-circa 1600 SA, here is the quote:

"c. 1600: Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the design of Sauron."
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King: Appendices: Appendix B: The Yale of Years: The Second Age

Now here's the crunch Grond, you have forgotten the crucial part of this poem (showing a hint of ignorance on the topic). Here's the poem minus the One Ring to rule them all,...et cetera.

"Three Rings for the Elven-Kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne, In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie."

So, it definitely could be an Elf poem.

This poem was for certain written post-circa 1600 SA and this is now known for a certainty. The poem knew that Sauron had the One Ring and that he was in Mordor.

Originally posted by Grond
That part of the rhyme couldn't have been composed by the Elves as they didn't even know about the One Ring until after is was made. So I'm not sure the entire Poem was written at the time the Rings were forged.

You call me ignorant Mr. Ignoramus! Why do you continually make the assumption that the poem was written pre-circa 1600 SA (your assumption would lead to the fact that the poem was written around circa 1590 SA, which, as I have said, is not a certainty)??? I'd really like to know why you constantly make this assumption.

Originally posted by Grond
The 19 Elf Rings were all subservient to the One Ring and not to Sauron. Sauron exercised his power over the Ringwraiths not because he controlled them directly but because he controlled them indirectly through his holding their Rings himself. It was for that very reason that he couldn't give the nine to others to create new Ringwraiths. If he gave them up... he would lose control.

I cannot disagree as this is entirely true. However, lets use our imaginations a little and make a chronology of the order of power:


Sauron
|
The One Ring
|
The Three Elven Rings ie Vilya, Narya, Nenya.
|
The Seven Dwarven Rings
|
The Nine Rings for Mortal Men


Note: The Seven and the Nine aren't known for a certainty, but again, using chronology, if you look at the poem the Seven are mentioned before the Nine therefore they are seemingly deemed as of higher power or potency (I cannot say this as a definite certainty).

So, Sauron was in control of the One therefore he was in control of the Three, the Seven and the Nine, true? Making the wearers of the other Rings not only subservient to the One, but to himself (Sauron).

Originally posted by Grond
That is all I have for now. I have not been able to research in depth in UT, Sil or HoMe yet... but will look tonight.

Good, I should hope so.

Originally posted by Grond
I hope this is enough for you to rejoin the debate.

Well, all I have to say is that now all this 'other stuff' has been cleared up, we can get down to business, the reason we are here.

Originally posted by Grond
Sorry it's taking me so long to reply.

I reckon, what's taking you so long? :p

Anyway, cheers and bye for now. Am looking forward to an intellectual debate.

Ulairi

[Grond]

That is perfectly fine Grond. Selling off her estate? My apologies if I am being nosy, but did she pass away? If so, my most sincere condolences for you and your family.My mother passed away a year and a half ago with bone marrow cancer and I am the executor of her estate.
And modest ones I hope too! Yes, you are about to lose it, to me, and I'll be the number one poster and my dream will finally be fulfilled! Muhahahahahahahahahahaha!!!Not if it can be stopped by me increasing my post rate. :)
And there are a few things to be resolved in your (I was going to say ignorant, but then I read between the lines and saw where you were coming from Grond) post my dear friend. Yes, they were written on the Ring by Sauron, that is definitive, however, we do know for certain that it was an Elvish poem. I will post the quote again:pLet me give you the definition of lore by Websters.

Lore - Accumulated facts, traditions, or beliefs about a particular subject.

Nowhere in the works does it state that Elves wrote the poem. It says that it is a verse "Long known in Elvish lore" or Elvish knowledge. The verse was, as I believe was the entire poem, written by Sauron. That is the likliest scenario. The 19 Rings of Power were forged by Celebrimbor. Nowhere in the works does it state that the Elves had intended to give them to the different races of Middle-earth. That was a Sauron idea. He wanted to subvert the leaders of each of the races of Middle-earth to him. How could the Elves possibly have written the verse, "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them"? They couldn't have because that verse was inscribed on the Ring by Sauron before the Elves even knew of the Ring's existence.
Gandalf himself says it was Elvish lore in which it was remembered. Note: It says 'long known'. Now this doesn't really suggest anything, but it puts a cloud of doubt over the subject and doesn't make it clear that the poem itself was even Elvish. 'Long known' could mean two things:
1. It was written by the Elves and it was incoporated into their 'lore' and became 'long known'.
2. It was written by an anonymous author, the Elves discovered it and again it was incorporated into their 'lore' and it became 'long known'.
Now, the second possibility doesn't sound very convincing and it begs the question:

"Who wrote the poem?"

So, as you have said Grond, we do not know for certain, however, in my own opinion, the first option sounds more of a likely one.And once again, you are proven wrong. I have already given you irrefutable proof that only Sauron could have written the part of the poem which states "One Ring to rule them all...." because he was the only one to know of the One Ring when it was forged and inscribed.

To be quite frank, blunt and honest with you, it seems pretty self-explanatory to me. It appears as though the Elves did write it. Your argument about the time can be easily shot down in an instant. We do not know when the poem was written, for all we know it could have been written post-c. 1600 SA, not pre (the defintion of the prefix being used in this context). If you do not now what I mean about post-circa 1600 SA, here is the quote:You are wrong. At the very least, the lines I've already cited, were written by Sauron either before or during the forging of the One Ring. Your assumption is plain wrong.

Now here's the crunch Grond, you have forgotten the crucial part of this poem (showing a hint of ignorance on the topic). Here's the poem minus the One Ring to rule them all,...et cetera.

So, it definitely could be an Elf poem.

This poem was for certain written post-circa 1600 SA and this is now known for a certainty. The poem knew that Sauron had the One Ring and that he was in Mordor.I agree with this portion of your post. The additional verses were written sometime after Sauron forged the One Ring. Nowhere in the works does it indicate by whom they were written. I personally believe the entire poem was written by Sauron. Why??? Because the Elves would have known that one of the Rings was held by Galadriel, and she ain't no king.

You call me ignorant Mr. Ignoramus! Why do you continually make the assumption that the poem was written pre-circa 1600 SA (your assumption would lead to the fact that the poem was written around circa 1590 SA, which, as I have said, is not a certainty)??? I'd really like to know why you constantly make this assumption.I make no such assumption. The only fact I know of is that the portion of the poem already quoted "ad nauseum" was written before or at the time of the forging of the One Ring.
I cannot disagree as this is entirely true. However, lets use our imaginations a little and make a chronology of the order of power:


Sauron
|
The One Ring
|
The Three Elven Rings ie Vilya, Narya, Nenya.
|
The Seven Dwarven Rings
|
The Nine Rings for Mortal Men


Note: The Seven and the Nine aren't known for a certainty, but again, using chronology, if you look at the poem the Seven are mentioned before the Nine therefore they are seemingly deemed as of higher power or potency (I cannot say this as a definite certainty).You have a chart that is incorrect. Here is the correct listing.
Sauron
I
The One Ring
I
The Three Elven Rings
I
The 16 other Rings
No where does it give a definitive that the Rings were already distributed to the races. There is only one inference that Durin's Ring was given to him by Celebrimbor himself. A legend not a certainty. And that was a legend of the Dwarves and not of the Elves.

So, Sauron was in control of the One therefore he was in control of the Three, the Seven and the Nine, true? Making the wearers of the other Rings not only subservient to the One, but to himself (Sauron).I disagree entirely. Sauron was in control of the One and all of the Elves who had all 19 of the other Rings of Power were aware of Him and took the Rings off. You need to read the account in UT again. It's in the chapter of Galadriel and Celeborn. You are so off-base that I won't even give you the quotes as you definately need to reread the works.
Well, all I have to say is that now all this 'other stuff' has been cleared up, we can get down to business, the reason we are here.Nothing is cleared up as most of your post is entirely wrong. And I would prefer that both of us leave the word ignorant out of our vocabulary. If I see it again, I will become angry. I have only used it to describe your behavior because you have so readily thrown it out at others.

[7doubles]

gandalph tells frodo after throwing the ring into the fireplace, the letters are the flowing script of erigon and the the langue is that of mordor. on the inside and the outside of the ring. the poem is not mentioned outside of the parameters of what is writen on the ring. it is not a poem but a binding spell. writen by sauron himself

[Grond]

Originally posted by 7doubles
gandalph tells frodo after throwing the ring into the fireplace, the letters are the flowing script of erigon and the the langue is that of mordor. on the inside and the outside of the ring. the poem is not mentioned outside of the parameters of what is writen on the ring. it is not a poem but a binding spell. writen by sauron himself 7doubles, I agree with you. "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them!" is in fact a binding spell and was inscribed into the One Ring by Sauron, who of all the Maia, was mightiest in the craft of Aule. I still disagree with Ulari that the entire poem is of Elf origin as it is clear from both the Silmarillion and the UT that the Rings were, at the time of the forging of the One Ring, in the hands of the Elves of Eregion.From The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,
Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made one Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. and while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him. since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.The other part of the poem had to have been written later by either Sauron or the Elves or some other source AFTER Sauron had gathered up the Rings and disbributed them to the Races of Man and Dwarves.

[Lantarion]

Yes, I agree. I think it was the Mírdain of Eregion who made all the RIngs of Power in the first place (barring the One Ring, duh). It was probably written shortly after Sauron's plans had been discovered, because there is a hint of despair in the poem. "In the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie.." It certainly isn't jolly!

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
My mother passed away a year and a half ago with bone marrow cancer and I am the executor of her estate.

My sincerest condolences.

Originally posted by Grond
Nowhere in the works does it state that Elves wrote the poem. It says that it is a verse "Long known in Elvish lore" or Elvish knowledge. The verse was, as I believe was the entire poem, written by Sauron.

Originally posted by Grond
That is the likliest scenario.

OK, I agree with you on that Grond, I cannot disagree, however, despite that what you believe is based on good fact, it still can't be proved. No where does it say that Sauron actually wrote the poem himself. As I have said, the Elves could have written the poem post-circa 1600 SA, we will never know, and we'll have to leave it at that.

Originally posted by Grond
Elves wrote the poem.

Originally posted by Grond
That is the likliest scenario.

I love twisting people's words. :p However Grond, what you have said is much more likely IMO.

Originally posted by Grond
The 19 Rings of Power were forged by Celebrimbor. Nowhere in the works does it state that the Elves had intended to give them to the different races of Middle-earth. That was a Sauron idea. He wanted to subvert the leaders of each of the races of Middle-earth to him. How could the Elves possibly have written the verse, "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them"? They couldn't have because that verse was inscribed on the Ring by Sauron before the Elves even knew of the Ring's existence.

Like I said, you can make that assumption, and it is probably the most likely, but, it can't be proven. Again, it all comes back to time.

Originally posted by Grond
And once again, you are proven wrong. I have already given you irrefutable proof that only Sauron could have written the part of the poem which states "One Ring to rule them all...." because he was the only one to know of the One Ring when it was forged and inscribed.

And once again, I can prove you wrong Grond. Yes, at that time only Sauron would have known of that, however, the poem isn't dated. The Elves could have easily discovered what was inscribed on the One at any given time and then could have written the poem. We will never know.

Originally posted by Grond
You are wrong. At the very least, the lines I've already cited, were written by Sauron either before or during the forging of the One Ring. Your assumption is plain wrong.

As is yours. I have just shown above that the Elves could have written the poem.

Originally posted by Grond
Nowhere in the works does it indicate by whom they were written.

Exactly, however you make the assumption it was written by Sauron, which may be true, however, it cannot be proven.

Originally posted by Grond
Because the Elves would have known that one of the Rings was held by Galadriel, and she ain't no king.

Kings, Rings, they rhyme Grond, and it has a nice 'ring' to it if it is written in that way (the poem). This may have not been literal Grond, and you can't assume it is. There are many little innuendos in Tolkien's writings my dear friend.

Originally posted by Grond
I make no such assumption. The only fact I know of is that the portion of the poem already quoted "ad nauseum" was written before or at the time of the forging of the One Ring.

How do you know that? No where does it state that the poem was written circa 1600 SA or pre-circa 1600 SA. I don't know where you come up with this Grond. Btw, your chart is right, the chronology has been fixed, cheers.

Originally posted by Grond
No where does it give a definitive that the Rings were already distributed to the races. There is only one inference that Durin's Ring was given to him by Celebrimbor himself. A legend not a certainty. And that was a legend of the Dwarves and not of the Elves.

A legend perhaps, but at least it is something to go by, and it helps my argument significantly. In which I based my entire argument upon.

Originally posted by Grond
I disagree entirely. Sauron was in control of the One and all of the Elves who had all 19 of the other Rings of Power were aware of Him and took the Rings off. You need to read the account in UT again. It's in the chapter of Galadriel and Celeborn. You are so off-base that I won't even give you the quotes as you definately need to reread the works.

I do not need to reread them, I know this. I was just using a little imagination, that's all. Don't take that seriously, I didn't mean it that way.

Originally posted by Grond
Nothing is cleared up as most of your post is entirely wrong. And I would prefer that both of us leave the word ignorant out of our vocabulary. If I see it again, I will become angry. I have only used it to describe your behavior because you have so readily thrown it out at others.

I agree, however, I believe I have shown that most post wasn't 'entirely wrong', as it is based upon quite a lot of fact. I thought by now Grond that you would have learnt not to underestimate me, but it seems a though you havent. However, I do agree with most of your post anyways.

Cheers.

Ulairi.

[Elu Thingol]

Ulairi, I think the invisibility bestowed on a wearer by the ring is a side-effect as you say. This side-effect probably does draw the line between those who can use the rings and those who cannot. However, I think it only works on those who do not have the strength to use it. I don't think there is any line between mortals and immortals as you suggest." It's strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a greater power of their own."(pg.350 FOTR) So if there is a mortal with a "greater power of their own" then they will be able to use the ring. The quote leaves it open to mortals by saying "THOSE who have..." it is not specific. Also, you say there has never been an example of a mortal who has worn one of the twenty rings and not turned invisible. I disagree, elves have worn the rings and they have not turned invisible. I must remind you that elves do age, they aren't immortal as most think, they just appear that way to men because they live so long. So elves are immortal to men but, they still age and so in the long run can be considered mortal. If you want proof please refer to(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No. 245, dated 1963). So with that I can infer that if Legolas or another elf had worn the one they might have turned invisible. Also, if Boromir had possesed this greater power he might have been able to wear the one ring without turning invisible.
We can safely say of the 20 rings Can't use the ring your wearing-Your invisible!
You can use the ring your wearing-your not invisible!

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Ulairi, I think the invisibility bestowed on a wearer by the ring is a side-effect as you say. This side-effect probably does draw the line between those who can control the rings and those who cannot. However, I think it only works on those who do not have the strength to control it.

With this I agree, as I had devised it myself. This thread had been existent before you had even come onto the forum Mithrandir2003, and here's the irony, it was titled Ring invisibility = the will nor the strength to control a Great Ring, so, the idea had crossed my mind. You are correct however.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
I don't think there is any line between mortals and immortals as you suggest.

I do, and not without evidence. As both you and I have suggested, it is probable that invisibility was a conveyance that that the wearer had neither the will nor the strength to control it. Immortal races are always the more powerful than in Tolkien' works, again, I will used chronology to help my argument.


Iluvatar (Immortal)
|
Valar (Immortal)
|
Maiar (Immortal)
|
Elves (Immortal, and they were also the Firstborn)
|
Dwarves (Mortal, but with long lives)
|
Men (Mortal)


Here is a quote from the Sil to help my argument:

"In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty;..."

There you are. There is a link that the fact that there was a link between Elves and Men.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Also, you say there has never been an example of a mortal who has worn one of the twenty rings and not turned invisible. I must remind you that elves do age, they aren't I disagree, elves have worn the rings and they have not turned invisible.

Mithrandir 2003, you are just plain wrong. The reason that the Elves did not turn invisible was because the Three Elven Rings weren't made for that purpose, and did not convey invisibility upon its wearer according to the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, so, my argument still stands.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
So if there is a mortal with a "greater power of their own" then they will be able to control the ring. The quote leaves it open to mortals by saying "THOSE who have..." it is not specific.

Not necessarily. There may be a great man, take Isildur for example, he was a great man and had 'greater power of his own' ie 'own' meaning 'Men' in this context, he was a King, yet he succumbed to the power of the Ring as soon as he laid eyes upon it. As you have said, it is not specific, and I believe that that quote can be disregarded as it definitely doesn't help your argument at all Mithrandir2003.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
So they are immortal to men but, they still age and so in the long run can be considered mortal.

I cannot believe what I am hearing!!! Elves mortal? Go and read some books Mithrandir2003, for your sake! Mithrandir2003, stay out of something that you can't understand in the future, I see no further point in talking to you. Elves age, but they are definitely not mortal. I've never laughed so hard in my life!!!

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Ulairi
I cannot believe what I am hearing!!! Elves mortal? Go and read some books Mithrandir2003, for your sake! Mithrandir2003, stay out of something that you can't understand in the future, I see no further point in talking to you. Elves age, but they are definitely not mortal. I've never laughed so hard in my life!!!

You should have read the letter I suggested to you. For you would have read this little quote right here Ulairi.

'The Elves were sufficiently longeval to be called by Man 'immortal'. But they were not unageing or unwearying' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 245, dated 1963).

Do you know what longeval means Ulairi? I think you don't. Read this...

1 a : a long duration of individual life b : length of life Merriam Websters Dictionary

So the quote from Tolkien's letters can be read this way[the Elves had a sufficient length of life to be called by man immortal]. So we know that the elves have a length to their life so they can die. So indeed they are mortal in a sense. So there definetly has been mortals to wear one of the 20 rings and not turn invisible. You also say that the rings the elves wore were not designed to turn people invisible. This confuses me and I will explain why further down

Posted by Ulairi
Not necessarily. There may be a great man, take Isildur for example, he was a great man and had 'greater power of his own' ie 'own' meaning 'Men' in this context, he was a King, yet he succumbed to the power of the Ring as soon as he laid eyes upon it. As you have said, it is not specific, and I believe that that quote can be disregarded as it definitely doesn't help your argument at all Mithrandir2003.

Ulairi Ulairi Ulairi, just because he succumed to the power of the ring does not mean he turned invisible. In fact he probably possesed the power to use the ring. Read this...


" It's strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a greater power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart."(pg.350 FOTR)

Ok Ulairi consider this. Isildur did have the power to use the ring, however his heart was corrupted. As Gandalf points out any elf, maiar, or someone with a great power of their own would also be corrupted. So just because he was corrupted doesn't mean he couldn't use the ring. The same would happen to anyone with great inner power. Also, nowhere does it say that Isildur turned invisible while wearing the ring. A strong man most likely could control the ring!

posted by Ulairi
Mithrandir 2003, you are just plain wrong. The reason that the Elves did not turn invisible was because the Three Elven Rings weren't made for that purpose, and did not convey invisibility upon its wearer according to the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, so, my argument still stands.

So Ulairi you defy your own words? Read!


posted by Ulairi Well, the Nine turned invisible because of the Rings that Sauron gave them. Were they rendered invisible because of the fact that they had neither the will nor the power to control them? That is what I wish to know. I believe that the Elves were not rendered invisible by the Great Rings because of the fact that they were present in both the physical and spirit-realms, as they were immortal. Therefore, I believe it is safe to say that if a mortal wore one of the Three, he/she too, would turn invisible.

Stop arguing with yourself!

[Grond]

So the Great Isildur was not powerful enough to master the Ring? Or was he powerful enough to master the Ring and had complete mastery of the Ring soas to turn himself invisible when he tried to escape the Orcs? In either case, he didn't have sufficient control over the Ring to keep it from slipping off of his finger and revealing himself to the Orcs who put so many arrows into him that he looked like a porcupine.

It is apparent from the ongoing debate between you two that you have completely disregarded 90% of this threads LOGICAL reasoning as to why Elves and Dwarves were never effected by the Rings of Power and the mortal races of men were. And before you jump on the word "Mortal" Mithrandir... you need to read the posts which speak of the duality of an Elf's existence when compared to the singular spirit of Man which goes where we know not, when death takes him.

[Rangerdave]

Posted By Ulairi
"I cannot believe what I am hearing!!! Elves mortal? Go and read some books Mithrandir2003, for your sake! Mithrandir2003, stay out of something that you can't understand in the future, I see no further point in talking to you."

There you go, getting all superior again. ;) ;) :p

A strong case can be made for Mithrander2003's case.
1. Elves can be wounded.
2. Elves can be killed by wounding.
3. Ergo, Elves can be mortally wounded.
4. Therefore Elves can be considered mortal QED.

(Blows a big forum rasberry here)

Have fun kids
RD

Don't worry Mithrander2003, I'll still talk to you.

[7doubles]

only the hroa: (hroar, hroando)"body" could be mortaly wounded. not the fea: (fear).'spirit of the elves. and elves can rebody by manwes decree that it was orgionaly unatural for elves to die and is a direct result of arda marred but also the woe of andreth. mandos then became a warden of the rehabilatation of the fea. nienna greatly helps restore the fea to its hroa to form the mirroanwi. "the unmared body.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Do you know what longeval means Ulairi? I think you don't. Read this...

Of course I do Mithrandir. And here's an alliteration for you. Do you know what an alliteration means? No, I'm sure you don't, and I'm sure you won't know what the words of the alliteration mean either: You post-pulchritudinous pugnacious pig. There's are mouthful for you.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
So the quote from Tolkien's letters can be read this way[the Elves had a sufficient length of life to be called by man immortal]. So we know that the elves have a length to their life so they can die. So indeed they are mortal in a sense. So there definetly has been mortals to wear one of the 20 rings and not turn invisible. You also say that the rings the elves wore were not designed to turn people invisible. This confuses me and I will explain why further down

Mortal meaning that you can die.

Immortal meaning you cannot, however, you are not invincible, even when you are immortal. Someone really needs to study the definition of their words, and that goes for you too RD. 'Immortal' and 'invincible' are two entirely different words. Why do I bother?

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Ulairi Ulairi Ulairi, just because he succumed to the power of the ring does not mean he turned invisible. In fact he probably possesed the power to use the ring. Read this...

Oh my lord, did I just see that? Please, please go and read some more Tolkien books for not just your sake, but for mine Mithrandir2003, so I don't have to waste my time with you. Here is the quote that shoots down your entire post in flames:

"'A mortal Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks under the twilight of the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later if he is well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.'"
The Shadow of the Past

That is pretty self-explanatory IMO, but if you can't understand it Mithrandir2003, I'll spell it out for you.

So just because he was corrupted doesn't mean he couldn't use the ring.

Mithrandir2003! You keep getting worse and worse. If Sauron controlled Isildir or whoever our example is, let's use Frodo, he would ne under the power of Sauron, and therefore wouldn't have a will of his own and therefore, he couldn't use the Ring. I can't believe what I am seeing!!!

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
So Ulairi you defy your own words? Read!

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Stop arguing with yourself!

For once you are right Mithrandir2003, I actually, as I have said, posted this thread before, and I just copied and pasted it again into another thread ie this one without fixing it. As in the previous thread, Grond showed me a letter which says that the Three did not confer invisibility on its wearer. However, the rest of your post couldn't be more wrong.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Do you know what longeval means Ulairi? I think you don't. Read this...

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
...because he succumed to the power...

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
...there definetly has...

Ha! This coming from a person who can't spell succumbed and definitely? You have to be kidding! Do'nt yu Mifrenbir2003?

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Ulairi
Mithrandir2003! You keep getting worse and worse. If Sauron controlled Isildir or whoever our example is, let's use Frodo, he would ne under the power of Sauron, and therefore wouldn't have a will of his own and therefore, he couldn't use the Ring. I can't believe what I am seeing!!!

Temper temper Ulairi sheesh lets keep things under wraps shall we. I am sorry to say Ulairi mortals can use the rings. Read the following-

'I would ask one thing before we go,'said Frodo, 'a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am perimitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?' 'You have not tried ,'she said. 'Only thrice have you set the ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ringbearer and as one that had borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have percieved my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise.(The Mirror of Galadriel, special thanks to Galdor)

So mortals can use the rings! This quote would lead one to believe that with the right training a mortal could use the ring to its full potential. Also, it would seem that Frodo has the ability to dominate the will and minds of others. Although, he would not be able to handle the power and it would destroy him. So he can use the ring.

Also Ulairi I know for a fact your spelling isn't the greatest either ne instead of be hmmm... what a spell checker could do for you! And for me!:p

Thanks for backing me up Rangerdave but the fact is that elves are immortal I just put that quote from Tolkien's letters in there to shake things up a bit, and because I wanted to see how Ulairi would respond to it.

Also, I have found something to help you with your anger disorder Ulairi. Please read this-

" Turn from evil do good seek peace and pursue it!" Psalms 34:14

This little verse will help you with many things you will encounter in your life use it!

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
So mortals can use the rings! This quote would lead one to believe that with the right training a mortal could use the ring to its full potential. Also, it would seem that Frodo has the ability to dominate the will and minds of others. Although, he would not be able to handle the power and it would destroy him. So he can use the ring.

A good quote, and it helps your argument significantly, yet you continuously fail in contextualization of quotes. Let's take another look at it shall we?

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003 in quote to 'The Mirror of Galadriel' from 'The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'
'I would ask one thing before we go,'said Frodo, 'a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am perimitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?' 'You have not tried ,'she said. 'Only thrice have you set the ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ringbearer and as one that had borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have percieved my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise.

OK, lets dissect it (like your fetal pig).

"Do not try! It would destroy you."

What does it say here? Well, it looks as though Galadriel is warning a mortal that the Ring would destroy him! There's a little help to my argument.

"Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor?"

Of this quote I am aware. So, what about Sauron with the One? Tolkien clearly states that Sauron with the One is equal to Sauron before he made the One, therefore, he did not gain anymore power. Why is this? Becasue IMNSHO Tolkien had a hole in his works, and I find many of them. I have contemplated this before, so, why wouldn't Sauron, by far the most powerful creature in ME at that time, get extreme power from the Ring? As I have said, it is too easy to shoot holes in your argument Mithrandir2003.

"Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ringbearer and as one that had borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have percieved my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise."

Oakie doke, this is a little tougher to dissect. But again, I, the mighty Ulairi, will shoot it down in flames.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
So mortals can use the rings! This quote would lead one to believe that with the right training a mortal could use the ring to its full potential.

I can't believe that I argue with your miniscule intellect Mithrandir2003, it's wasting my time.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
...would lead one to believe...

Would lead one to believe. What you have said in this context, is referring to 'one' as being 'all that read the quote'. I certainly don't believe. No where in Tolkien's works does it state that a mortal has had the full potential in using the One nor have even used it. And do you want to know why you believe this, because you are presumptions and your posts are entirely based on conjecture. I see no further point in arguing with you.

Bub-bye.

[Elu Thingol]

First off Ulairi you have yet to defeat this minor intellect you keep talking about. That seems a bit odd doesn't it unless this minor intellect isn't really minor.

Posted by Ulairi
Of this quote I am aware. So, what about Sauron with the One? Tolkien clearly states that Sauron with the One is equal to Sauron before he made the One, therefore, he did not gain anymore power. Why is this? Becasue IMNSHO Tolkien had a hole in his works, and I find many of them. I have contemplated this before, so, why wouldn't Sauron, by far the most powerful creature in ME at that time, get extreme power from the Ring? As I have said, it is too easy to shoot holes in your argument Mithrandir2003.

Ok so maybe there is a hole in the books but that doesn't put a hole in my argument. And if this hole puts holes in my arguments it also puts holes in yours Ulairi.

Posted by Ulairi
Oakie doke, this is a little tougher to dissect. But again, I, the mighty Ulairi, will shoot it down in flames.

I guess you forgot because I don't see anything to back up that statement

Posted by Ulairi
Would lead one to believe. What you have said in this context, is referring to 'one' as being 'all that read the quote'. I certainly don't believe. No where in Tolkien's works does it state that a mortal has had the full potential in using the One nor have even used it. And do you want to know why you believe this, because you are presumptions and your posts are entirely based on conjecture. I see no further point in arguing with you.

By using the word 'one' I did not mean all that read the quote. I was simply talking in third person like you are suppose to do when presenting research. I don't really see what that has to do with anything anyway. Also, the quote I just gave you leads one to believe that a mortal can use the rings. As you once said Ulairi "Interpret it however you wish".

Also it appears that in every debate we have you seem to lose your temper while I still hold self-control. Hmmmm.... that would seem to say something but I think you know what that is.

CU later Ulairi

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
First off Ulairi you have yet to defeat this minor intellect you keep talking about. That seems a bit odd doesn't it unless this minor intellect isn't really minor.

You take a hit and you keep on coming? Where's the so-called intellect in that?

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Ok so maybe there is a hole in the books but that doesn't put a hole in my argument. And if this hole puts holes in my arguments it also puts holes in yours Ulairi.

It seems a though I have you up against a fence here Mithrandir2003 as you never pointed out the holes in my argument.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
I guess you forgot because I don't see anything to back up that statement

Looks as though your mediocre intellect doesn't give you the insight to see tense either Mithrandir2003.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
By using the word 'one' I did not mean all that read the quote. I was simply talking in third person like you are suppose to do when presenting research. I don't really see what that has to do with anything anyway. Also, the quote I just gave you leads one to believe that a mortal can use the rings. As you once said Ulairi "Interpret it however you wish".

Yes, interpret it however you wish, even when it is clearly wrong. As you continually never back up anything Mithrandir2003. Where's Grond? I want an intellectual debate for once, one that requires neurons.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
Also it appears that in every debate we have you seem to lose your temper while I still hold self-control. Hmmmm.... that would seem to say something but I think you know what that is.

Psychoanalyze away! I don't care! I may have an angry disorder, but does that bother me? No!

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
CU later Ulairi

Lazy and stupid? CU, why do people continually use abbreviations? Easy, because they're slackers.

Bub-bye.

[7doubles]

ulairi, you are wrong. and also the ring did give sauron power. the power to controll the other rings and their magic and their bearers
the reason sauron needed back his ring was that he lost most of his power being reduced to the spirit "Thu" a dark cloud disinbodied resulting from the fall of numenor. then it took many years for him to take shape and reform. but the ring held all that remanded of his origional powers. then he lost even more of his reformed powers after his second slaying from gilgalad and elendil this depleated even more power. leaving the ring the verry last of all of his godly power. when destroyed he would never again take form.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Ulairi
It seems a though I have you up against a fence here Mithrandir2003 as you never pointed out the holes in my argument.

THANK YOU! 7doubles :), There are your holes Ulairi. This quote backs up 7doubles argument


But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruiling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them.(Letter to Milton Waldman)

Look closely Ulairi for you will find that it says only the wearer can see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, govern all they did, and utterly enslave them.


Now about Sauron not losing any power when he loses the ring you are correct only in sense Ulairi. For Sauron does not lose the power he put into the ring to create it, but he does lose the powers mentioned above which can be used to their potential if the wearer is strong enough.

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story)pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.(Letter to Milton Waldman)

So he does not lose his inherent power, but he loses control of his enhanced power without the ring.

Posted by Ulairi
Psychoanalyze away! I don't care! I may have an angry disorder, but does that bother me? No!

Actually Ulairi, I was thinking more along the lines of an ego disorder. Your ego is so large everytime somebody pops it you explode. This is a sign you are being beaten.

Posted by Ulairi
Yes, interpret it however you wish, even when it is clearly wrong. As you continually never back up anything Mithrandir2003. Where's Grond? I want an intellectual debate for once, one that requires neurons.

Never back up anything, what a joke. And don't go joining any debates that require neurons for I think you have lost yours at the moment, speaking of which I had better go buy some more at the local market :) I always need more space for memory storage

[DGoeij]

Great. What a mature debate. Put this into perspective little ones. You're talking about a book here. A s t o r y, magnificently made up by a very torough man, who left some room for argument, because he wasn't finished and made some mistakes along the way.
Have an argument over interpretations, but leave out the bickering about being smarter than the other. It is not proving your claimed intellect.
And leave out the: 'He started it!' while you're at it.

And in case you're wondering about it. I meant the both of you, DUH!

[Ancalagon]

And unless you can be civil to other members of the forum Mithrandir2003, I suggest you do not continue to post!

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
And unless you can be civil to other members of the forum Mithrandir2003, I suggest you do not continue to post!

Well said.

I wonder how long it will be before one of them uses the Liar Liar Pants on Fire defense.

RD

[Elu Thingol]

Sorry you guys I was angry about something else when I got on the forum and got a little unrational. I deleted what I said, so no hard feelings?

[Úlairi]

The type of **** I have to put up with!!! Me? Wrong? Never, well, certainly not on this topic. You call those holes Mithrandir2003, try microscopic cavities.

Originally posted by 7doubles
and also the ring did give sauron power. the power to controll the other rings and their magic and their bearers[/I]

Wow! Your intellect is blinding! I already knew that, and in no way does it shoot holes in my argument. In fact, it hurts yours more than mine. For argument's sake, lets say what Mithrandir2003 said, that a mortal at his/her full potential could 'use' the full capabilities of the One, therefore controlling the other nineteen. They get the same power as Sauron does!!! I wouldn't necessarily call that much power. Sauron was powerful enough to destroy the Rings of Power without having to control them, he gained no extra power than he had before, in fact, if he did things as an alternate, things may have turned out more in his favor. Besides, it isn't Sauron that controls them, it is the One, therefore, Sauron in a sense gets no extra power than he had before, instead, he loses it by putting so much of his original power into it in the first place.

Originally posted by 7doubles
[B]the reason sauron needed back his ring was that he lost most of his power being reduced to the spirit "Thu" a dark cloud disinbodied resulting from the fall of numenor.

*Ulairi laughs*
Thu, a dark cloud? You need to read up a little on Tolkien fellows!!! *Laughs again*. Thu is the name of the land in which the Necromancer (ie Sauron) dwelt in The Hobbit. *Laughs again*

Originally posted by 7doubles
but the ring held all that remanded of his origional powers. then he lost even more of his reformed powers after his second slaying from gilgalad and elendil this depleated even more power. leaving the ring the verry last of all of his godly power. when destroyed he would never again take form

This I already knew, and it helps your argument didley squat.

Have a nice day.

Bub-bye.

[Cian]

Originally posted by Ulairi
*Ulairi laughs* Thu, a dark cloud? You need to read up a little on Tolkien fellows!!! *Laughs again*. Thu is the name of the land in which the Necromancer (ie Sauron) dwelt in The Hobbit. *Laughs again*

The name Thû (Etymologies thû "stench") was a name for the chief servant of Morgoth (also Mor-thu and etc.), ie Sauron. See Etym base THUS- and "... where Sauron, that is in the Gnomish tongue named Thû, ..."

Note from "The Later Quenta Silmarillion": we see the name Gorthaur replacing Gorthú, and the name Sauron becomes associated with base THAW "destestable" (Letters) (see compounded form Gorthû in a change to typescript FNII for example).

[Grond]

I have been sitting in the background watching the both of you argue like the apparent teenagers you both are. I am again appalled at your argument style Ulari. I don't know Mithrandir2003, so I won't comment on his style but you, Ulari, know better than to be plainly rude and arrogant. Stop or I will not debate you again.

[Lantarion]

Yes, I think basic courtesy would benefit all the readers here, rather than watching a childish shoot-out of misspelled big words.

[Parrot]

Originally posted by Ulairi
“Why do I bother?”
One does wonder.

Right along with why the powers that be allow you to make markedly more pointed insults than a certain someone banned for that same transgression ever did, to my knowledge, with no obvious repercussions. Must be the comic-relief your little tantrums, …errr… I mean arguments, provide. I especially like the revival of the whole “Bub-Bye” thing, very original, nicely done. It is to laugh, uhh… somethingly.

[Flame of Anor]

I would also say that it is also a side-effect of wearing the Ring but to only those who cannot control it fully.

[Elu Thingol]

But Ulairi Tolkien says that the ring enhanced Sauron's power on earth

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story)pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.(Letter to Milton Waldman)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Ulairi
For argument's sake, lets say what Mithrandir2003 said, that a mortal at his/her full potential could 'use' the full capabilities of the One, therefore controlling the other nineteen. They get the same power as Sauron does!!! I wouldn't necessarily call that much power.

Actually they would gain quite a bit of power

Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could(if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.(Letter to Milton Waldman)

That sounds like a lot of power to me!

Posted by Ulairi
You call those holes Mithrandir2003, try microscopic cavities.

A pulled muscle is but microtears in the muscle

[7doubles]

youngins got all the answers. whats the question?:confused:

[Úlairi]

Fine, I'll cut the **** I've been giving out to people. Point taken.

Good points Mithrandir2003, and I agree with you. However:

Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could(if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.(Letter to Milton Waldman)

OK, this letter does tell us quite a bit, however, Sauron was Maia, and even a mortal with the One in his/her possession couldn't challenge the power of a Maia, could they? Here's a few quotes to show you what I mean:

"The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods."

"With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order the Valar but of less degree."

"Among those of his (Melkor's) servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In the beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people."

"Of old there was Sauron the Maia, whom the Sindar in Beleriand named Gorthaur. In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance, and he became the greatest and mosy trusted servant of the Enemy, and the most perilous,..."

So, we can see from these quotes that Sauron was no pushover, and to think he would lose/succumb/be defeated by a man/woman with a powerful object on his/her that he forged. Let's get a basic idea on the power of the One, shall we?

"Now the Elves made many rings, but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring;..."

There are hundreds of quotes that I could get, but this One just about sums them all up. So, I believe we can deduct that the One was powerful, but powerful enough to overthrow Sauron, possibly the most powerful Maia in existence behind Eonwe and Ilmare, one of the Ainur, of the angelic order? I don't think so. Not even with a Ring that he forged to be beneficial to him and to him only. Why would he make a Ring for his benefit be able to work against him? Not logical if you ask me. However, Sauron put a failsafe system on the One, corruption. We know that the One rendered its wearer under the influence of Sauron when he/she puts it on. Here's the quote to support that:

"...he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

And that says it all. No matter how strong the wearer is, he/she will succumb to Sauron, despite the fact that he/she may be strong. So, it is my personal belief that not even an Elf, save a mere Mortal Man could ursup the place of one of the most powerful beings in existence.

Originally posted by Mithrandir2003
A pulled muscle is but microtears in the muscle

True, but holes are actually holes Mithrandir2003.

[DGoeij]

Uhm. Sauron feared the use of the One Ring against him, something Gandalf mentioned if I'm correct. Sauron even seemed mortally (pun intended) afraid Aragorn, a Man, would start using it.

[Galdor]

I'm suprised to see that no one has yet presented the following argument:
Here are a couple of quotes from The Return of the King in chapter 9, "The Last Debate".

1) Quote: "For if we have found this thing (the Ring)there are some among us with the strength enough to wield it." --The attenders of this debate are Aragorn, Gandalf, Prince Imrahil and the sons of Elrond, all of which are mortal except Gandalf, of course. If mortals could not use the ring would not Gandalf have said, 'I' have the strength enough to wield it instead of saying "there are some among us with the strength enough to wield it?"

2)Quote: "Also we could not learn to wield the full power all in a day." --Once again you can see the use of the word 'we' instead of 'I'.

3)Quote: "...and He(Souron)will look for a time of strife, ere of the great among us will make himself master and puts down the others. In that time the ring might aid him if he were sudden." --In this case, Argorn would be used to appear as the ring bearer.

4)Quote: ..."for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new ringlord: and he will say: "So! he pushes his neck out too soon and too far." --This quote seems in insinuate that Argorn would be able to learn the use of the ring with time. And notice that He does not say "He is a fool to think he can use the Ring being a mere Mortal."

[7doubles]

i believe even samwise the strong vission was a possablity of what "could be" inplied that he too could fully controll the one ring if he willed to. but he chose not to.

[Galdor]

As to the invisibility affect of the Ring, I would guess that it works only on thoughs who have not yet learned to use the Rings power. So that until the wearer of the Ring learned of its true power they would believe it to be but one of the lesser rings of power, as Gandalf once believed it was.

[Flame of Anor]

Originally posted by Galdor
As to the invisibility affect of the Ring, I would guess that it works only on thoughs who have not yet learned to use the Rings power. So that until the wearer of the Ring learned of its true power they would believe it to be but one of the lesser rings of power, as Gandalf once believed it was.

Very good point Galdor, but did not Frodo know that it was the One Ring?

-Flame

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Galdor
I'm suprised to see that no one has yet presented the following argument:
Here are a couple of quotes from The Return of the King in chapter 9, "The Last Debate".

1) Quote: "For if we have found this thing (the Ring)there are some among us with the strength enough to wield it." --The attenders of this debate are Aragorn, Gandalf, Prince Imrahil and the sons of Elrond, all of which are mortal except Gandalf, of course. If mortals could not use the ring would not Gandalf have said, 'I' have the strength enough to wield it instead of saying "there are some among us with the strength enough to wield it?"

2)Quote: "Also we could not learn to wield the full power all in a day." --Once again you can see the use of the word 'we' instead of 'I'.

3)Quote: "...and He(Souron)will look for a time of strife, ere of the great among us will make himself master and puts down the others. In that time the ring might aid him if he were sudden." --In this case, Argorn would be used to appear as the ring bearer.

4)Quote: ..."for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new ringlord: and he will say: "So! he pushes his neck out too soon and too far." --This quote seems in insinuate that Argorn would be able to learn the use of the ring with time. And notice that He does not say "He is a fool to think he can use the Ring being a mere Mortal."

I knew of these quotes Galdor, but they were devastating to my argument. However, now they have been brought to light (which I myself should have done), a new argument arises. If this is true, in which case it is, then we are saying that the One was more powerful than Sauron? I won't believe, nor can I. Why would Sauron make an object more powerful than himself? Also, what about the Ring's failsafe system that I have provided? Here's the quote once more:

"...he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

So, even if a mortal did learn to use the Ring's full power, Sauron would probably have control over him/her before he/she possibly could have. Am I right? I think so. Also, we know that the Ring had a mind of its own. Here's another quote by Gandalf that helps my argument very much:

"'It (the One Ring) is far more powerful than I ever dared to think at first, so powerful that in the end it would utterly overcome anyone of mortal race who possessed it. It would possess him."

So, here it says that anyone of mortal ie Men race would be overcome by the One, therefore succumbing to Sauron, as the One:

"...wants to get back to its master."

I believe Tolkien may actually contradict himself. First, he says that the One would overcome anyone of Mortal race, and would succumb to him, and then suggests that people can use the One to usurp Sauron. A little contradiction on Tolkien's part. What to believe? I believe my argument sounds the more plausible. And may I be the first to warn anyone here that I am ready to argue this to the bitter end, so, if you wish to argue it, please do so in an intelligible fashion.

[Galdor]

What I was saying is that the invisibility Souron uses as a desepction. Ever fear has gawed at him even at the begining when he made the Ring, and he was ever afraid that he might lose it. which is why it was made to seem just as one of the lesser rings, which did do such things as make the wearer invincible. I did not mean that once the wearer new of its true power they would no longer become invincible, but once they learned to use its true power.

your friendly neighborhood LoreMaster
Galdor of the Havens

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Galdor
What I was saying is that the invisibility Souron uses as a desepction. Ever fear has gawed at him even at the begining when he made the Ring, and he was ever afraid that he might lose it. which is why it was made to seem just as one of the lesser rings, which did do such things as make the wearer invincible. I did not mean that once the wearer new of its true power they would no longer become invincible, but once they learned to use its true power.

your friendly neighborhood LoreMaster
Galdor of the Havens

I agree, but invisibility is more than just a deception, it helps Sauron to gain those that wear the Ring under his control easier. I will elaborate if you wish.

[Galdor]

Shoot away Ulairi. The more I learn the bettter. I think I know what you mean though

[Úlairi]

OK. I base the entire theory that I have developed on this one quote:

"...he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

So, by coming invisible permanently, this enables Sauron to gain them under his control by being advantageous of the spirit-realm and the Men only see:

"...the phantoms and delusions of Sauron."

Invisibility is more than just a side-effect, it is a transportation device into a parallel dimension that Men were not supposed to behold. Sauron uses this to his advantage, and makes them succumb to his power instead of being able to use it. If Sauron created a device moer powerful than himself and it could enable others to use it against him, than that it pure irony and ignorance on the part of Sauron, which is why I wouldn't buy that argument. I mean, who would be so stupid to do so? Definitely not Sauron.

[Galdor]

Well Ulairi unless any new points come up I have desided that there is no more point to debating you, as you have stated that there is nothing I or anyone else can say to make you change your mind on this point. And since nether side can prove the other wrong and I believe that both sides of the debate have sufficiently argued there case enough, so that any interested others observing the thread can deside for themselves.

Your friendly neighborhood LoreMaster
Galdor of the Havens

[Úlairi]

Don't make presumptions Galdor, I'm asking questions. Here it is

Originally posted by Ulairi
I mean, who would be so stupid to do so?

Just read a little between the lines. Most of what I said there was true, you must admit. What do you think?

[Galdor]

You have a good case though I still think you are wrong. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was mad or frustrated at you. I was merely stating that I don't believe that ether side can win. And unless any new points come up I see no more point in debating you. I look forward to debating (or agreeing) with you in others treads.

Galdor of the Havens

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Ulairi
If Sauron created a device moer powerful than himself and it could enable others to use it against him, than that it pure irony and ignorance on the part of Sauron, which is why I wouldn't buy that argument. I mean, who would be so stupid to do so? Definitely not Sauron.

In his letter to Milton Waldman Tolkien describes Sauron's reasoning

But that he never cotemplated nor feared. The ring was unbreakable by any smith craft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made-and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the rings power of lust that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will to injure it, cast it away or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.

So I would guess, that Sauron thought he would not be defeated. He thought the ring would never leave his finger and in so doing made a crucial error. He was too arrogant. And I think the part I put in bold sums everything up.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ulairi
...So, by coming invisible permanently, this enables Sauron to gain them under his control by being advantageous of the spirit-realm and the Men only see:

Invisibility is more than just a side-effect, it is a transportation device into a parallel dimension that Men were not supposed to behold. Sauron uses this to his advantage, and makes them succumb to his power instead of being able to use it. If Sauron created a device moer powerful than himself and it could enable others to use it against him, than that it pure irony and ignorance on the part of Sauron, which is why I wouldn't buy that argument. I mean, who would be so stupid to do so? Definitely not Sauron. You've just got this entire concept wrong Ulari. The Power of the One is what gives Sauron dominion over the wearers of the nine. It has nothing to do with the fact that they have become shades. The fact that they became shades is a direct side effect of a mortal wearing a Ring of Power. The reason he maintains dominion over the wraiths (after he lost the Ruling Ring) is the fact that he is the keeper of the Nine Rings of Men, which give him mastery over those enslaved to those same Nine Rings. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is Sauron. If Aragorn were to gain mastery (possession) of the Nine, he would then rule the Ringwraiths. If Aragorn decided to wield the One, then he would be in a position to challenge Sauron directly (who would win is something left to speculation).

It is the One Ruling Ring that has jurisdiction over the other Great Rings of Power and nothing at all to do with Sauron himself. If what you say were true, the Three Elven Rings couldn't be wielded at all, else their wearers would risk exposure and enslavement to Sauron.

As far as Sauron creating a device more powerful than himself, who is to say how much of his power would have been necessary to INFUSE the One Ring with the necessary power to rule the others? You can no more state a certain answer on that question that you can on any others. I am still undecided on the question of whether a mortal who mastered a Ring of Power would be able to control the "invisibility" feature of the Ring. I honestly think that transporting a mortal to the spirit realm of the Ainur and Eldar is just a side effect and one that was directly planned by Sauron. He probably envisioned first enslaving the Elves who wore the Rings of Power and then using them as tools to gain dominion over the other peoples of ME. He would have provided selective knowledge to the Elves of Eregion who may not have even known what effects the Rings they forged bore.

[7doubles]

gandalf said to weild the rring you would have to become (sauron), "meaning to be kind i would become as terrable as the dark lord himself. sauron in this form is used as a verb not a noun.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Grond
The Power of the One is what gives Sauron dominion over the wearers of the nine. It has nothing to do with the fact that they have become shades. The fact that they became shades is a direct side effect of a mortal wearing a Ring of Power. The reason he maintains dominion over the wraiths (after he lost the Ruling Ring) is the fact that he is the keeper of the Nine Rings of Men, which give him mastery over those enslaved to those same Nine Rings. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is Sauron. If Aragorn were to gain mastery (possession) of the Nine, he would then rule the Ringwraiths. If Aragorn decided to wield the One, then he would be in a position to challenge Sauron directly (who would win is something left to speculation).

I think I may have got a little confused in the understanding of that particular text. I apologise, however, thank you to Grond, I see it now. This I agree with.

Originally posted by Grond
It is the One Ruling Ring that has jurisdiction over the other Great Rings of Power and nothing at all to do with Sauron himself. If what you say were true, the Three Elven Rings couldn't be wielded at all, else their wearers would risk exposure and enslavement to Sauron.

But isn't that Sauron's goal? To enslave the Elves? And here's a quote that shoots what you have said down in flames.

"...he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings."

So, it looks as though in this context Tolkien refers Sauron to be the ruler of the Rings, and not the One. What do you have to say to that?

Originally posted by Grond
[B]As far as Sauron creating a device more powerful than himself, who is to say how much of his power would have been necessary to INFUSE the One Ring with the necessary power to rule the others? You can no more state a certain answer on that question that you can on any others.

Is that a bit of a cop out Grond? If so, who said that we shouldn't have a go at each other from now on? However, I agree.

Originally posted by Grond
I am still undecided on the question of whether a mortal who mastered a Ring of Power would be able to control the "invisibility" feature of the Ring. I honestly think that transporting a mortal to the spirit realm of the Ainur and Eldar is just a side effect and one that was directly planned by Sauron. He probably envisioned first enslaving the Elves who wore the Rings of Power and then using them as tools to gain dominion over the other peoples of ME. He would have provided selective knowledge to the Elves of Eregion who may not have even known what effects the Rings they forged bore.

I too, have contemplated these also. I have come to the conclusion that Sauron deliberately made this a property of the One, however, it is only my opinion.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Grond
I too, have contemplated these also. I have come to the conclusion that Sauron deliberately made this a property of the One, however, it is only my opinion.

I am not sure if it is just an opinion or fact

And finally they had other powers, more directly deirved from Sauron: such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible. (Letter to Milton Waldman)

So we know the invisibility came almost directly from Sauron and we know he fused the power of all the other rings into the one. So he meant the one to have invisibility but I'm not sure if the reason he gave the one invisibility was to dominate mortals as much as it was just to give the one all the powers of the lesser rings.
quote:
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Originally posted by Grond
As far as Sauron creating a device more powerful than himself, who is to say how much of his power would have been necessary to INFUSE the One Ring with the necessary power to rule the others? You can no more state a certain answer on that question that you can on any others.
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Well it does say that he put a great part of his inherent power into the ring. Great obviously doesn't mean a small amount, but wether he put most of his power into the ring, who knows?

As to wether Sauron controlled the lesser rings or the One controlled the lesser rings. I think the person who is master of the one is also master of the lesser rings except the elven rings which were formed without Sauron's knowledge. But this quote seems to shoot down that idea...

Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of will(even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it.

By reading this quote it would seem that the ring is the master of the wearer even Sauron. If this is true then wouldn't the ring control the lesser rings instead of Sauron?

[Grond]

I must be missing something. There is absolutely no way that Sauron could have control over the other 19 Rings of Power WITHOUT wielding the Power of the Ruling Ring.

Fact: The Elves Elrond and Galadriel used their Rings to stave off the ravages of time in Rivendell and Lorien. Those Rings were being actively used to PREVENT DECAY.

Fact: The Three Elven Rings were being wielded during (at the least) the mid to latter part of the Third Age. (A time when Sauron was again gaining power.)

Fact: If Sauron RULED the 19 Rings of Power without the need of the Ruling Ring, he would have overwhelmed both Elrond and Galadriel and procured their Rings.

Fact: Sauron could not overwhelm the Elvish Rings because he no longer possessed the vehicle to do so. (The Ruling Ring.)

[Elu Thingol]

Then how come Sauron has control of the nine?

Maybe it is because they have become shadows and once this happens they are permanently under Sauron's power.

[aragil]

I was always under the impression that the Elven Rings, and the 3 in particular, had the ability of preservation. I believe this comes from a quote that Grond likes to use, and I'd be surprised if he hasn't already posted it somewhere on this thread (I have not yet read all of it). Anyway, the mortal body (hrondo if you've read HoME 10) is not equipped for preservation. Even the Elven body gradually fades over the millenia, with only the strength of the Elven spirit to keep the body together. This fading must be doubly strong for mortals, whose spirit is not made to stay within Arda and so is less capable of holding onto the body than the Elves. What I'm getting at here is that I don't think the 'wraithing' effect of the Rings was intentional on the part of the Elves. The Elves made Rings of preservation, and while this is natural enough for the Elves, it is very unnatural for mortals. IMO it's more of a misuse of technology than a bad technology.

Which brings me to my second point, and one which I will continue to harp on whenever this comes up in a thread: No Ring transports mortals to a Maia/Immortal dimmension. No such dimmension exists. The Ainur who came into Arda (all the ones in the books) forsook the outside world. Their entire being (spirit, body, etc) is bound within Arda until the end. There is no escape dimension that they can go to when the tire of life within the world. This goes doubly so for the Eldar. Remember, the fundamental difference between the Eldar and the Mortals is that the Eldar are inextricably bound within the world. They can not leave it: not to visit Luthien, not to improve their astronomical sciences, not even to go to the latrine. Any discussion about ring invisibility which describes an alternate dimmension for the Eldar or Maiar is running afoul of some of the most fundamental laws Tolkien ever penned!

[Elu Thingol]

Points well taken aragil

Posted by aragil
This fading must be doubly strong for mortals, whose spirit is not made to stay within Arda and so is less capable of holding onto the body than the Elves. What I'm getting at here is that I don't think the 'wraithing' effect of the Rings was intentional on the part of the Elves. The Elves made Rings of preservation, and while this is natural enough for the Elves, it is very unnatural for mortals. IMO it's more of a misuse of technology than a bad technology.

By wraithing effect I take it you mean the invisibility the ring bestows. You are correct in saying it was not intentional on part of the elves.

And finally they had other powers, more directly deirved from Sauron: such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible. (Letter to Milton Waldman)

I think you have one thing confused though. The invisibility caused by the ring is not caused by its power of preservation but simply by its power of invisibility. The 'wraithing' effect you speak of comes from the invisibility powers derived from Sauron and not the preservational powers derived from the elves. So the 'wraithing effect' would not take place if a mortal wore one of the three elven rings because they do not possess power of invisibility. A mortal wearer of one of the three would probably be stretched and gain no more life and every day would become weariness but no more.

Note: Both the invisibility and preservation come both from the Elves and Sauron, but invisibility more from Sauron and preservation more from the Elves.

[aragil]

Whoops! My last post was made after reading only the first page (and only a few of the posts there) of this thread. I thought that I was reading the last page, so unfortunately my arguments were mainly in the context of the first page, and are not quite as relevant here. Now that my post has been responded to, I guess I'll leave it as is.

Elu Thingol- by wraithing effect I mean the manner in which the nine rings turned their mortal wearers into Ringwraiths. Unlike the invisibility conferred while wearing the ring, I assume that wraithing is permanent. Sorry about any cornfusion. To continue, I don't see the wraithing effect as being tied to the invisibility effect, and so the WE did not necessarily derive from Sauron. Again, the WE seems very similar to the manner in which the bodies of the Elves fade, only WE is at a much accelerated pace. If I am reading Morgoth's Ring correctly (no guarantee there), then all of the Elves will eventually fade away, becoming spirits very similar to the wraiths. This is a natural process, a result of their spirit being preserved forever within Arda. It seems like a good deduction (deduction, not fact) that their rings work in a similar way.

[Elu Thingol]

Yes that is a good assumption but if you read Ulairi's quote you will see that it is the invisibilty which causes the WE

And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks unde