Gandalf and the Balrog

[Gamil Zirak]

Both survived the fall, and Gandalf pursued the Balrog for eight days through the deepest caverns beneath Moria. At last they came to the Endless Stair, and climbed the steps that led to the peak of Zirakzigil. There Durin's Bane fought its last battle - for two days and nights, the Balrog battled with Gandalf, but at last it was cast from the peak, and broke the mountain-side as it plunged to its doom.

Will this scene be in the Two Towers?

[Talimon]

Yes, it will be shown, probably in the same fashion that his escape from Isengard was shown (a flashback). Don't be surprised if it's expanded a bit, in fact. I always had problems with Gandalf's transformation in the books, so I hope PJ manages to make it convincing. In the books it never really convinced me. It was a surprising turn in the plot, but I never understood how Gandalf managed to beat the Balrog, let alone survive the fall. So I hope PJ makes the transformation a bit more "spiritual", if you will.

[Ithrynluin]

I sure hope they include it in the movie!!!
What exactly do you not understand about Gandalf's transformation?

[Talimon]

A lot of things. I don't know if there are any concrete answers to some of these:

* How did Gandalf survive the fall? Is he immortal?

* How did he manage to chase the Balrog?

* After fighting the Balrog at the top of Durin's Stair, he claims the mountain crumbled down. Wouldn't that kill him with the Balrog as well?

* What exactly does he mean when he talks about his old life burning away?

* When he says that he walked on roads which he will not speak of, does he literally mean roads or is he speaking metaphorically?

* And most of all, this one: Why did he become Gandalf the White? What did Galadriel say to him in Lorien?

I confess that I haven't read the Silmarillion, so I don't know much about the nature of the Wizards, or Istari I think thier called. Are they actually immortal? This would explain at least some of the confusion. My main problem actually has more to do with the dramatic aspect of it. Gandalf dying, and then coming back, just sounds a little too gimmicky for me. The only reason it works in the books is because of the mystery Gandalf puts around it. He talks of it as a big transformation for him, but we never understand why he was transformed.

What I'm getting at is that if it's kept the same in the movies as it is in the books then it might seem a little gimmicky. I can see myself, let alone non-Tolkien readers, asking "Why isn't Gandalf dead?" Because logically speaking, that fall should have killed him, let alone everything else he describes.

[Ithrynluin]

Gandalf is a Maia,a spirit of an "angelic" order just like Saruman, Sauron,the Balrog,Radagast and the Blue wizards (to mention just those that appear in LOTR).
When the Istari came to Middle Earth, they were "clothed" in bodies as of men, and they could therefore be slain,wounded..etc and were susceptible to hunger,wearyness...So their bodies were mortal, but not their spirits.When Gandalf and the Balrog came crushing down, their bodies were lost, but their spirits fought on and Gandalf was victorious at the end.

When he talks about his old life burning away, he means just that. The body of Gandalf the Grey was gone and he was given a new one by Iluvatar(the creator of all) himself.

When he says that he walked on roads which he will not speak of, does he literally mean roads or is he speaking metaphorically?
I think this is meant metaphorically, because spirits don't really need roads as such do they?

He became Gandalf the White because Saruman the White fell from his errand and failed to achieve his task. More power was bestowed upon Gandalf and he became mightiest of the 5 wizards. Galadriel sent messages through Gandalf to Gimli,Legolas and Aragorn. What she said to HIM can only be guessed...
Hope it helps;)

[Talimon]

Helps a lot, thanks. But that just drives the point further: If PJ is to make his transformation effective, he'll have to visually explain what you've just told me in one way or another. It'll be interesting to see how he does it.

[The Necromancer]

I thought when i read the book, Gandalf did not fall...I remember a quote, and this should roughly follow it. "I then passed away, and my body lied naked at the top of the mountain" I don't know. And Talimon, don't worry, I'm only on page 87 of the Sil. It's pretty hard for a 13 year old like me to tackle.

[UltimaLegolas]

It diffentaly will show that cause if it didnt you wouldnt get the whole effect of what happeaned. And the movie will be a great one.

[Úlairi]

A good answer itrynluin. Yes, the movie promises to be ripper. I have already ordered my ticket for opening day. I'll probably be one of the first people in Australia to see it!

[Talimon]

Your theatre is already selling advanced tickets?!?!? Australians... ;)

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Talimon
Your theatre is already selling advanced tickets?!?!? Australians... ;)

Yep, so much better than Americans (or wherever you're from). :p

[Talimon]

We're paying your Australian actors to give their excuse for acting in our film, so I'd hush up :).


Not that I'm necessarily savvy on the idea of defending Elijah Woods or Liv Tylers Acting, but hey, we've got Sean Bean... wait, I think he's English... Ian McKellen! No, he's for sure English... Viggo Mortensen...?!? He's Danish.... Not Ian Holm, English as well...Sean Astin! That's it, Sean Astin as Sam!!! Booya!!! Besides, Hugo Weaving isn't much to be proud of... :) Although Miranda Otto is looking nice as Eowyn :).

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Talimon
We're paying your Australian actors to give their excuse for acting in our film, so I'd hush up :).


Not that I'm necessarily savvy on the idea of defending Elijah Woods or Liv Tylers Acting, but hey, we've got Sean Bean... wait, I think he's English... Ian McKellen! No, he's for sure English... Viggo Mortensen...?!? He's Danish.... Not Ian Holm, English as well...Sean Astin! That's it, Sean Astin as Sam!!! Booya!!! Besides, Hugo Weaving isn't much to be proud of... :) Although Miranda Otto is looking nice as Eowyn :).

Hmmm...let me see.


Mel Gibson
Russell Crowe
Paul Hogan
Hugh Jackman
Jack Thompson


Do these names ring any bells?

[Shmandalf]

No.

[Talimon]

LOL ;).

[Úlairi]

Glad you see my point.

[Shmandalf]

um hum.

[Úlairi]

The point in your post Shmandalf is...?

[EvilMoo]

Hey Talimon....
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We're paying your Australian actors to give their excuse for acting in our film, so I'd hush up .
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Isnt Peter Jackson from New Zealand??
Oh well.....I guess all that money for LotR had to come from someplace other than that lil Island...


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Not that I'm necessarily savvy on the idea of defending Elijah Woods or Liv Tylers Acting, but hey, we've got Sean Bean... wait, I think he's English... Ian McKellen! No, he's for sure English... Viggo Mortensen...?!? He's Danish.... Not Ian Holm, English as well...Sean Astin! That's it, Sean Astin as Sam!!! Booya!!! Besides, Hugo Weaving isn't much to be proud of... Although Miranda Otto is looking nice as Eowyn ."
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And Oi!! Hugo Weaving was Australian last time I checked....Were u trying to adopt him or do I mistunderstand? hehe. I thought he pulled off Elrond quite well:)
Altho Russell Crow is actually New Zealander as well! hehe. Oh well, why dont we just adopt that poor little country as our own?

Oze Oze Oze............

Dont kill me if ur from new Zealand!!!

[Legolas_lover12]

u have advanced tickets??? i'll probably just go down to the theater the day it comes out and see what the first unbooked showing is. of course that'll probably be the first one in my town...........................