Which is a better movie TT or Attack of the Clones?

[Gloer]

Attack of the Clones - Lucas strikes back
...hard.

After the criticism of the childishness of the Episode I and after the stunning success of a dark, grim and scary fantasy tale called the FOTR, no one really needed Star Wars anymore. We had LOTR! Lucas had lost it and the Episode II was pre-titled: Lost in space. But it got worse:" Attack of the...CLOWNS"?? My god! That Jar Jar Binks was already a desaster alone!

But now it seems to be that none of this pre-bashing does credit to what is approaching...

The trailers are magnifficent. The music is superb. But so it was the last time.

Why am I am I so sure Star Wars is back?

It is the story - What I know of the story written for the episodes 1-3 is that they are absolutely classical piece of work. Shakespeare would be proud of it. And it is all made for the big-screen. Unlike our Lotr.

After the Episode II there is some doing if TT wants to top it.

What do you think?

[Gloer]

Here is a sneak peak to see what TT is like:

http://planetmirror.com/pub/movie_trailers/L2Towers.mov

And here is an example of the AOTC :

http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/video/trailers/clonewar/

[Talimon]

While I've seen some good reviews for Attack of the Clones, I've seen a good deal of bad ones as well. The good ones simply say, "This is the Star Wars of our childhood...", and the bad ones say the movie is bad for the same reasons Phantom Menace was bad: Cheesy dialogue etc. etc. I actually liked Phantom Menace for the cool visuals, but the fact is that TTT is going to be so much more epic and deep that were Clones going to be better it would have to have a LOT more hype by this point (not to mention good unanimous reviews, something FotR had).

[Samwise_hero]

I reckon they're both going to be brilliant. i'm going to see attack of the clones next week.:eek:

[Talimon]

I'm seeing it this week :). Not midnight showing though... Really not worth it. I'll see it on Thursday evening or so.

[wonko]

neither will live up to expectations (at least my expectations) but i think the two towers will be better becasue it has ents :)

[Thorin]

I fail to see how you can actually compare the two....The genres are somewhat different and nobody has seen either of them yet.

Special effects wise, I don't think Lucas can be beat but that doesn't negate the greatness of TTT's special effects

Even when we see them, I don't think they can be compared.

[Talimon]

If Star Wars and Lord of the Rings can't be compared, I don't know what can. They are catering to the same movie audience, and they are both works of fiction. They are both trilogies, and they are both highly anticipated. I see nothing wrong in comparing them.

[Gloer]

...that is the trick!

I ask people to compare to things that exsist only in their own imagination, in their own hopes and anticipations created by the hype.

I am actually measuring the hype, not the movies...

I am extremely hyped by the AOTC and fear that it will not meet the expectations. On the otherhand the trailer for TTT did notimpressme that much.I guess it was a byt too much like a slide show with a monotonous feel of an "epic" story.

I also thought that since Star Wars and Lotr both are fiction based on the basic myths.
(There is a strong cintrast to modern literature that realistically never have clear good, bad, heros, villains or value systems.)

It seems that Tolkien fans are not so hyped up by the AOTC.
Since no one seems to be despising Star Wars I think there is a real danger of having overt expectations of what TTT has to offer.
Or is it just as well as long as PJ stays true to the book and makesit look right?

What do you think?

[Thorin]

Oh, in that case it makes sense....PPPPLLLLLLLHHHHHTTTHHHH..... to you, Talimon!:D

I think that there is a lot of hype surrounding AoTC...It's been three years since TPM, and even critics who've scene Episode II and lambasted it have said that it was better than Episode I.

I think that Star Wars is more hyped because the franchise has been around a lot longer and has gained a bigger following (movie wise). Yes, Tolkien has a huge following, but that is for Tolkien, not Jackson. And judging from the reaction of many Tolkien fans to the first movie, I don't think the hype will be as big (Now if Jackson had actually made a DECENT rendition....):)

Truth be told, we won't really be able to judge the hype between the two until October and November rolls around.

I just want to go to see the jedi fights and watch Yoda and Obiwan kick some butt....Apparently everyone agrees that the dialogue is pretty bad (a common trait with FoTR)...But I'm not going to watch Padme and Anakin whisper sweet nothings to each other in jilted fashion.....Give me monsters and light-sabres!!!

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Thorin
Oh, in that case it makes sense....PPPPLLLLLLLHHHHHTTTHHHH..... to you, Talimon!:D

I think that there is a lot of hype surrounding AoTC...It's been three years since TPM, and even critics who've scene Episode II and lambasted it have said that it was better than Episode I.

I think that Star Wars is more hyped because the franchise has been around a lot longer and has gained a bigger following (movie wise). Yes, Tolkien has a huge following, but that is for Tolkien, not Jackson. And judging from the reaction of many Tolkien fans to the first movie, I don't think the hype will be as big (Now if Jackson had actually made a DECENT rendition....):)

Truth be told, we won't really be able to judge the hype between the two until October and November rolls around.

I just want to go to see the jedi fights and watch Yoda and Obiwan kick some butt....Apparently everyone agrees that the dialogue is pretty bad (a common trait with FoTR)...But I'm not going to watch Padme and Anakin whisper sweet nothings to each other in jilted fashion.....Give me monsters and light-sabres!!!

Do we really have to argue over FotR in every thread? Apparently...

Here's something for you:

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1800421139&cf=critic

Ignore the fact that it got an average "B" and just look around at what the reviews say of it.

Ok. Now look at this:

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1807537463&cf=critic

This is all nice, but here is what REALLY get's me:

http://www.sfgate.com/eguide/movies/criticalconsensus/index2001.shtml

This is about as accurate as reviews go, because it takes into account 40 reviews by "major" reviewers. Now placing 13th may not seem like something worth praising, but note two things: One, it got an 8.7 out of 10 average, while the highest movie got a 9.3 . Secondly, please take a look at the movies that are in front of it. See anything from the same genre? Didn't think so. See anything that was nominated for an Oscar?

You have the right to make up your own mind about movies, but I'd hardly say the general consensus was that LotR was a bad movie. More to the point, Tolkien fans almost unanimously loved it. Fans loved it. It's the 5'th best selling movie in history (it's sold better then the 3 original Star Wars movies). It had a 5 month run in theatres, and is still running in many places. That doesn't sound like a movie that won't be getting hype. Plus, consider this: the only reason Phantom Menace sold better then it was because of all the hype for Star Wars. If this movie came so close to it in sales WITHOUT with same hype, what does that tell you about the next movie?

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talimon
Do we really have to argue over FotR in every thread? Apparently...

Relax, Tal....My opinion is always my own opinion. I don't speak for anyone else unless I'm really generalizing and I wouldn't take that as gospel because nobody knows what everybody's opinions are. I'm pretty sure there are many fans out there who disliked LoTR as much as you feel every fan loved it....

LoTR was impressive, but I didn't like it. It was a poorly edited and distorted rendition of Tolkien. Technically, it was impressive and I agreed with the Academy awards on what it won (I thought it deserved other awards as well). The rest was dreadful..But that is my opinion. I can only hope that TTT will be better. You liked it, I did not. I have the right to express my opinion where I want and how I want, just like you do. ;)

Originally posted by Talimon
Plus, consider this: the only reason Phantom Menace sold better then it was because of all the hype for Star Wars. If this movie came so close to it in sales WITHOUT with same hype, what does that tell you about the next movie?

Keep in mind, Tal, that TPM had 16 years of hype waiting behind it from one movie to the next....Episodes IV, V, VI garnered a huge cult following. You can't say that people have been waiting for 50 years from when Tolkien's book because that is not an accurate comparison. The thought of making a movie like PJ has done was not only impossible at the time, but laughable in a fans eye. Nobody was waiting for anything.

However, a few years ago, there was huge hype for the little time that the concept was thought of and presented to the public (Burger King's cheesy merchandise and extra cheesy commercials comes into mind). With the debut of the "trilogy" looming over the horizon there was considerable hype. And there was originally the fan base to start with as well....If this were PJ's own movie without Tolkien's book as a concept, do you think that it would have sold as well as it did?

Tolkien sold this movie....The Star Wars franchise concept sold itself (I don't think people really could care whether Lucas directed it or not)

[Talimon]

Tolkien sold this movie....The Star Wars franchise concept sold itself (I don't think people really could care whether Lucas directed it or not)

The original Star Wars movies, yes. But not the prequels. They are completely driven by hype (proven by the fact that even fans say TPM wasn't a good movie, and yet it sold better then all the previous SW movies).

We'll just have to wait and see, but if Tolkien is selling this movie then he must be selling the other two as well.

And I forgot to include this. A database of over 12,500 fan reviews. The average score is a 4.6 out of 5.

http://www.theonering.net/movie/reviews.html

[Gloer]

I must add to you that The Lord Of The Rings has had a movie-cult following for a much longer time than there ever was Star Wars.

My first contact with the LOTR was Bakshi's brilliant film that used some awesome and creepy anumation. I hated to realise there was no part II.

Then I red the books and everything else I got my hands on.

But the bottom line is: I have been expecting to see the movie ALL THAT TIME = 20 years.

Peter JAckson told that he read the book and thought that this is a great story, it would make a great film, some ought to film it. Then Bakshi did his thing, but never finished it. Then years later he got the idea that if no-one else is going to film it he is.
I think about 95 % of the Tolkien fan-base is also fond of fantasy on the big screen. Conclusion can only be that there has been a HUGE HYPE CUMULATION OVER THE YEARS FOR LOTR "the movie" as well.

[Talimon]

There has been hype, but it hasn't been on the scale of Star Wars. Point in fact: For Episode I, people were camping weeks in advance to get tickets. I remember there was a line 100 people long a week before the movie even showed. There was a line at least twice that long just to get the advanced tickets. If LotR has had that kind of hype, then it sure didn't show (at least not at the opening shows).

Now maybe this will be different for TTT, but if so, it has nothing to do with Tolkien, and more to do with FotR.

[Gloer]

I admit that hype means a more immature type of anticipation of the kind with no patience and ability for use of critical judgement.

Anticipation for the Lotr grew over the 20 years after the Bakshi semi-done work until PJ took the effort. After that the Tolkien fans have been patient and anticipation is more directed on the quality than how soon it is in the Cinema.

As the hype grew - there was a clear anti-hype frown amongst the fans: we simply likedthe idea of the movie, but wanted to push the realthing away because it can never meet our ideal!

That is why there were no line-up's. The real hyped up fans were disgusted and taken a back by the flaws and thought "It could not be as good as the book so I can see it little later."

And then came the news that the movie was good, and even newcomers like it and so on. Recommendations from outside of the geekland! And cinema was flocked.

[Talimon]

That impatient hype is the kind that sells tickets. Personally I would never go see a 12:01 showing (much rather see it the next day at a 4:00 PM discount).

If TTT sells better then FotR did, it's because of people who liked the movie, not people who are coming based on the books. Personally I think that's the reason FotR sold so well, but since that can't be proven we'll have to see how TTT sells.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talimon
There was a line at least twice that long just to get the advanced tickets. If LotR has had that kind of hype, then it sure didn't show (at least not at the opening shows).

Now maybe this will be different for TTT, but if so, it has nothing to do with Tolkien, and more to do with FotR.

Not necessarily, Tal. FoTR has inspired many non-Tolkienites to pick up and read the remainder of LoTR....After reading and getting a better idea of what the movie is SUPPOSED to be like, they are getting excited for the next one....

I think the last two books are going to draw people to the theatre...Yes the first movie may have impressed people with the idea that if the first movie is great, the rest should be as well, but I believe that them reading Tolkien's work and imagining it on the big screen like FoTR is what ultimately will excite the people....

[Theoden]

Attack of the what? And besides, who needs Star Wars junk after TPM flopped. We are looking at a trilogy that is being carried soley by fans who saw the first trilogy 20+ years ago and loved it... otherwise, I think the whole Star Wars 1-3 would burn and crash. TT, on the other hand, is backed by an amazing book and before it was the FOTR which was just awesome. I mean... this shouldn't even be up for a debate.

[Gandalf_White]

Wow this was a tough question for me. I am a really big Star Wars fan. But I must say LotR is ten times better. No matter how good Star Wars may be.

[Courtney]

I'm sorry. I had to vote for Star Wars. I just love light saber battles!:rolleyes:

[Asha'man]

AoTc is much better, TT sight unseen. I'll probably only see that because my friends will make me.

Asha'man

[Talimon]

Just saw AotC. Music was really good, and the special effects were great, but give me a break with the idiotic dialogue. The dialogue here makes FotR look like Shakespeare, and some people have complained about that. The acting doesn't help either. The wost actor (or actress ;)) in FotR is better then the best ones here. Christopher Lee is an exception, but he has hardly any screen time.

[Gloer]

... I had high expectations based on quite a thoruough spoiler-studies as we could put it.

Reviews were mixed: some liked Anakin, others hated him and said that they can not see Vader in this irritating teenager.

One thing is clear: dialogue is below standard at times.
I really missed Han Solo-Leia type of sharp intelligent exchange of words: I love you - I know is 10000 times better than this "I have died a little bit each day after I met you..." OH MY GOD.

Somehow the sloppy love scene -dialogue does not spoil the movie. In other scenes dialogue is very sharp. Especially Lee's character has a better dialogue than that PJ managed to give Saruman when he discussed with Gandalf. Lee is very good.

The movie was great!

[Thorin]

What? You mean, "The Hobbits' weed has clouded your mind", doesn't rank up there with Christopher Lee's best lines???

I am going to see AoTC today...I am expecting cheesy dialogue (but after the pathetic dialogue of the two dimensional, cardboard characters of FoTR, I'm not worried about it spoiling the movie) and I really don't care about Anakin and Padme's budding relationship. I'm going mostly for the special effects....I thought TPH was sad in many regards but it was doable, and even the worst critics of AoTC admit that it is much better than TPH, so I'm going in with no worries or high expectations....

I wish I could do that when TTT comes out.....:(

[Talimon]

If you think the dialogue in FotR is cardboard, I can't imagine what you'll think of AotC.

Fellowships dialogue is easily better then any other action/adventure movie out there, and more entertaining then lots of movies that claim to be more "serious". I don't know what you mean by two dimensional, the majority of charachters came off exactly as they did in the book, even though they might have had less lines. Credit the actors instead of the script if you will, but good actors can make a weak script powerful.

[ReadWryt]

Attack of the Clones in one sentence...

"`Lord of the Rings' meets `A New Hope' and `The Empire strikes back' in a two hour infomercial for the new Video games and Action Figures...."

I kept waiting for Christopher Lee to throw Obi Wan up into the tower so that he could talk to a moth, or whatever insects they have on that planet...

[Talimon]

Originally posted by ReadWryt
Attack of the Clones in one sentence...

"`Lord of the Rings' meets `A New Hope' and `The Empire strikes back' in a two hour infomercial for the new Video games and Action Figures...."

I kept waiting for Christopher Lee to throw Obi Wan up into the tower so that he could talk to a moth, or whatever insects they have on that planet...

Which elements of 'Lord of the Rings' do you see in AotC? Other this Chris Lee they share nothing in common.

[ReadWryt]

..yeah, yer right...Christopher Lee playing a lacky of an evil and powerfull master, building the army that his boss commands him to build (I guess the fact that it's Droids and not Orcs is different!) is being too picky...NOT! There were elements of all three movies I mentioned in this one. George Lucas has yet to have an original idea, and now he his running headlong into making the movie that will be the death of Star Wars if for no other reason then because it will be absolutely the most depressing end of a trilogy ever made!! We next get to see the Jedi all but destroyed, the Republic ripped appart and turned into the Empire it is in "A New Hope", a mother have to separate her twin children by giving them away to someone else to raise and Anakin, who we have all come to like and care about, turn to the Dark Side and become Darth Vader! Woo Hoo!! Sounds like the triumphant ending that will draw crowds to me...about the only thing that could save that with the audience is if the last 10 minutes are the slow, arduous and painfull demise of Jar Jar...

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talimon
If you think the dialogue in FotR is cardboard, I can't imagine what you'll think of AotC

Actually, I saw it today....I had no problems with any of the dialogue....The only part is when C-3P0's head is being dragged in the dirt behind R2 and he says, "This is such a drag"....That was pretty cheesy....

FoTR still wins hands down for the lamest dialogue and the cheesiest one liners....Especially for a movie that had such wonderful dialogue of the written source to choose from, written by a master English professor....

FoTR has no excuse for its poor dialogue other than a director who decided to go do his own thing, his own way with the screenplay....:rolleyes:

As far as AoTC goes....it was worth the price of the movie ticket just to watch Yoda fight....That was the best!!

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Thorin


Actually, I saw it today....I had no problems with any of the dialogue....

....Are we talking about the same movie....? I'd go through an extensive rundown of AotC faults, but there are so many it's hardly worth the effort. I hope I'm not getting this wrong, but are you actually saying that Clones script is better then Fellowships?

[Gloer]

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side.

Nor its box-office potential.
My girlfriend has always somehow thought the villain was sexier - here again Obi-Wan (which I thought was cool) came out square in her eyes whereas Anakin ( which I thought was a whining immature kid) was interesting to her - even though she thought the love-scenes were cheesiest stuff ever!

Originally posted by ReadWryt
..yeah, yer right...Christopher Lee playing a lacky of an evil and powerfull master, building the army that his boss commands him to build (I guess the fact that it's Droids and not Orcs is different!) is being too picky...NOT! There were elements of all three movies I mentioned in this one. George Lucas has yet to have an original idea, and now he his running headlong into making the movie that will be the death of Star Wars if for no other reason then because it will be absolutely the most depressing end of a trilogy ever made!! We next get to see the Jedi all but destroyed, the Republic ripped appart and turned into the Empire it is in "A New Hope", a mother have to separate her twin children by giving them away to someone else to raise and Anakin, who we have all come to like and care about, turn to the Dark Side and become Darth Vader! Woo Hoo!! Sounds like the triumphant ending that will draw crowds to me...about the only thing that could save that with the audience is if the last 10 minutes are the slow, arduous and painfull demise of Jar Jar...

[Gloer]

Actually I like the plot of the whole Star Wars saga a lot.

Lucas can't write a decent script and he knows it. That's why he always hires a co-writer. I think Lucas get's way to stuck with the details. The story is his though. And I don't agree to saying that he does not have original ideas.

The concept of evil lurking within is much clearer in the Star Wars than in LOTR.
The good Republic turns to evil Empire. The hero Anakin Skywalker turns to evil Darth Vader. In the LOTR we only see slow erosion or violent destruction of the good nations. They never really get even close to being perverted. Boromir falls momentarily and get's immidiately killed heroically because his ambivalence is against the rules: good are good and evil are evil! Saruman is never shown as a likeable or a good person so his "fall" is not a real fall to evil side. Compared to Gandalf he is cold. And did he ever fight or sacrifice in the battle against the evil? Not much.

Anyways. Aotc plot makes the jedi seem very small, very inable to do anything against the rise of the empire. You get a believable feel that "everything is going to go as the emperor has foreseen". Now, I have some ideas how the young Anakin will believably and inevitably turn to evil and become Darth Vader in the last movie.

One clear source for Lucas has been the end of Roman republic and the rise of Julius Caesar and the empire. It was inevitable change since Roman's didn't have any idea of representative democracy. The state needed a strong central government not a town council.
The original idea is to say that the cunning and opportunistic Julius Caesar is an evil and clarvoyant sith lord, and that everything actually took place in space etc.

[Talimon]

Don't get me wrong. The plot in Star Wars is mythic and epic, as much if not more then LotR. But don't get "plot" and "script" mixed up. It's the same old saying: It's not what you say, it's how you say it. AotC may have more to say, but it does it so poorly that it's hard to care. The dialogue is simply dry. Or maybe it's the actors. I'm not even sure. But there are only a couple actors in that movie that sound as if they actually mean what they are saying. That's a far cry from FotR, where just about every word means something.

I can't see how these two movies can even be compared. AotC, when it comes down to it, is just another movie. It doesn't deserve to be called Star Wars. I'd like to forgive it, but it's just leagues behind the original trilogy.

If you are going to compare anything, it should be FotR and the original star wars. That would be two-sided argument. But there is nothing going for AotC (other then special effects) that FotR doesn't do better.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talimon
I can't see how these two movies can even be compared. AotC, when it comes down to it, is just another movie. It doesn't deserve to be called Star Wars. I'd like to forgive it, but it's just leagues behind the original trilogy.

Originally posted by Talimon
If Star Wars and Lord of the Rings can't be compared, I don't know what can. They are catering to the same movie audience, and they are both works of fiction. They are both trilogies, and they are both highly anticipated. I see nothing wrong in comparing them.



:confused:

[ReadWryt]

My problem is that Lucas admitted that many elements of "Return of the Jedi" were going to be things that he either didn't get to do in the original (New Hope), or had not done to his satisfaction...which shows that he is not adverse to rehashing old stuff in the first place. Luke fights Darth and gets arm cut off, Anakin does the same with Count Dookie or whatever his name is (I KNOW it's Duku or Dookoo or whatever, I just wanted to take the cheap shot demmit!)...the female lead gets to swing a chain around again while scantilly clad, fighting for her life...The young Jedi in training senses danger and leaves his training to save someone to his own detriment in both this and Empire...Bounty Hunter Death...I dunno, I would think that there could be a few more original elements to cram into this "Epic", but in fact aside from the budget and effects, the writing is on par with, or even not as good as, that in a weekly TV show like Babylon 5. One woould think that with over a decade to think about things and a couple of years between releases Lucas should be able to create something that outshines the writing of J.M.S. creating a weekly show...

[Talimon]

I'm dissapointed in you, Thorin. You'd have been better off quoting the first sentence of each of those arguments, but since you haven't I don't see what you're trying to say. Actually, that wouldn't have mattered, because you'll notice that I said "Star Wars" in one of them and "AotC" in the other. But even had I said "Star Wars" in both, I'd expect you to pick up the sarcasm in the first quote. Obviously they can be compared, but it's such lopsided argument that I don't see what's the use.

[Thorin]

Well Tal, you need to make yourself clearer because the quote where you said that "If Star Wars and LoTR cannot be compared, I don't know what can" was a direct refutation to my saying that AoTC and TTT cannot be compared." I said nothing about the original Star Wars to Lord of the Rings....My saying that they cannot be compared is because neither at that time, had come out yet and TTT will not be until end of this year.

If you are going to refute my comments, make yours relevant to mine....;)

[fantasydude]

well i think that they really are one and the same type of classic mythic struggle genre and one is in the future, one in the past. there could be many paralells, like yoda and elrond, obi wan and gandalf, annakin and frodo who then becomes one of the black riders, black riders and stormtroopers, elven warriors and jedi knights, c3po and r2d2 and pippin and merry. on and on...
but to choose? alas i could not. both are needed for me

[Talimon]

Black Riders and Stormtroopers?!?! Perhaps you mean Clones and Uruk-Hai... LOL

[Gloer]

So you say that Lucas is copying the original trilogy themas?
There are suttle differences which make a whole lot difference:

1. Luke is openminded and naive youth that destroys the Death Star when he gets in touch with his instinctive emotions, feelings, the flow - the force.

1. Anakin is a very naive and straight forward boy that manages to destroy the enemy spaceship and army almost accidentally because he is naturally in contact with the force. But since there is no such thing as luck in Star Wars (Obi Wan Kenobi to Han Solo in Episode IV) it must be that he is so attuned to the force that he does right even without really meaning to...He just does it whereas Luke has to really concentrate.

2. Luke is impatient and over-confident. He senses his friends are in danger and he leaves training to early. He fails to save his friends meets the dark lord. He is defeated and saved by his friends.

2. Anakin is impatient and over-confident. He senses his mother is in danger and he leaves his duties to save her. He fails to save his mother. He revenges his mother.
Here is a big difference: both were raw, but when Luke horribly realises that he was wrong to leave and he is not prepared to meet the dark side there Anakin never gets defeated but rewarded by the dark side: he fails in good (saving mother) but succeeds in evil (killing inferior enemies).

3. Luke is prepared to meet the dark side and not to fight and kill Darth Vader which would be evil since he is also his father. He succeeds in drawing Darth Vader back from the evil side and the emperor is defeated.

3. This is a guess: Anakin is not prepared to meet the dark side since he feels rewarded by it. He is not a jedi since he is married. So I think he will be nominated as the head of the new army directly under the good man, Palpatine. Then the Jedi discover who Palpatine is. They can do really nothing but rebel against the republic go hiding. Anakin sees the jedi in plight but desides not that they are not needed since he can secure the galaxy with the army. He believes this is his destined way to bring back the "balance" to the force.

[ReadWryt]

Well to be frank kids, I think the coolest thing that Lucas has written into this so far as I can see is that very thing that Gloer points out. Anakin sees the jedi in plight but desides not that they are not needed since he can secure the galaxy with the army. He believes this is his destined way to bring back the "balance" to the force.

We keep hearing about this whole concept that Anakin is going to bring ballance. How many followers of the Sith Arts have we seen in these movies? Everytime *I* hear something said it's surprise on the part of people that there even might BE any practitioners of the dark side of the force...But I've seen hundreds of Jedi. I think that it is really cool the way that Lucas is leading everyone down the path of believing that bringing "ballance" is a GOOD thing...when in fact the creation of Darth Vader will bring ballance that nobody really wanted because Good had become so much stronger then Evil...

[fantasydude]

you could maybe paralell the dark side of the force with the powers of the ring, the temptation jedi knights feel and annakin feels for the darkside is just like what frodo feels for the ring in the end, not to mention gollum, i saw the movie (star wars) finally, and definitely tLotR is far superior, but hey guess what christopher lee plays saru- i mean dooku in star wars leading to more similarities and paralells as well. Saru-dooku rocks! long live the force!

[Gloer]

When Christopher Lee rides on his skooter he reminds me awfully lot a witch or a vampire...And look at those Geonosian creatures. They live in dark gothic caves and fly arround like bats!
It is unfair that Lee has to have yet again these Dracula cliches arround him:
- victorian gothic romanticism
- bats as helpers
- caves
- a noble background: count
- black cloak that is red underneath
These details undermine the character a bit since Dooku is no Dracula and Lee is charismatic in many roles...

Look at the role he made as Rocheford, cardinals evil swordsman-servant in the Three Musketeers (1972)! A lot of similarities with Dooku- all the way down to the way the character duells!

[purplechic144]

Personally, After I saw Attack of the Clones I knew I had to brush up on my Star Wars knowledge or whatever you might call it. I hadn't seen the first three in a very long time, and I wasn't quite sure what some parts of the overall story were and all that. I never was really much of a Star Wars fan, but I liked it of course. After I saw all three of the earliest ones to be made (Episodes 4,5,& 6) and then Phantom Menace (Episode 1) and having seen the most recent and Episode 2, I understood the story and began to really like Star Wars. To me I think the graphics and overall visual of the movies is absolutely superb, and I love the story behind it. I now better understand why there are so many dedicated fans of Star Wars out there, and I am becoming one of them. The next and last installment I am eagerly awaiting.

Then... to compare it to The Lord of the Rings..are you insane???? Not that they cannot be compared, but that I could never choose. LOTR is a literay masterpiece, and the movies I am hoping will do it great justice, but Star Wars set the standard for great visuals, they were doing things never before done, and LOTR is taking it to new places, to Orcs and Ents and all of Middle Earth.

I don't think I could or ever would try to compare two such great and outstanding works, especially when LOTR has only one of three to account for it, and Star Wars has 5 out of 6 completed.

[purplechic144]

Now here's more,

I think that in Star Wars, alot of the problems people are seeing with it from what I have read of the threads, is basically that there has been some noticably bad acting. Not to say that any of the actors were bad actors, but that some of them did not bring out their characters very well. In AotC, Anakin was an arrogant, obsessive young guy, and Padame or Amidala (whichever is her true name) is very strong minded and wise for her age, she carries herself well you might say. What I am saying is that it is not very believable that she truly loves him, because all he talks about is that he cannot stop thinking about her, he loves her, he dreams about her, to me that is a big sign for her to say BACK OFF CRAZY KID, instead of I LOVE YOU. ANd in response to earlier statements made by others, I do not think that he will not be dropped so quickly as a Jedi because of his marriage, it was secretive and his skills were very great, they would not tell their chosen one that oops, too bad, you can't be a Jedi and continue helping us in our great time of need because you broke the code. And here I think his turn from the good will come very much into play, as obviously there will be some arguing between he and the counsel and he already thinks he is being held back. And also, he must do something "bad" within a small amount of time, because Obi Wan kept Luke and Leia a secret from him since their birth, Vadar never knew they existed because the threat they would be if they were turned to the dark side, and Leia stayed with her mother. This we know from the earlier movies, specifcally Return of the Jedi. So obviously something must happen to frighten Padame or Amidala enough to keep her children from the man she loves and to even seperate them and never see her son. WHat that may be, we will have to wait and see.

[Gloer]

very well who he was in relation to Luke Skywalker. By the way hpw come he held that name if he was supposed to be held secret for 20 years...
Not coherrent the story is.

[Shmandalf]

yes

[Rangerdave]

After watching AotC, or as I call It Crouching Jedi Hidden Yoda : The one thing that stands out is that Lucas can come up with some truly wonderful story ideas, but he should either produce or edit the final project. Leave the direction and screenplay to others.

BTW When Obi-Wan and Anakin were chasing the bounty hunter through the skies of Corusscant (sp?), did anyone else expect to see Bruce Willis and Milla J-something from the Fifth Element show up?

No wonder this kid becomes evil and turns to the Dark Side: If people called me Annie all day, I would be a bit evil myself.

RD

[Leto]

The important question is not about comparing one movie to the other...but asking what it is each movie is supposed to 'do', and how well they accomplish that. The fact that these stories are of roughly the same genre, sharing some of the same fanbase, is irrelevant.
Star Wars is about visual story telling, and mythmaking. It always has been...this is what George Lucas has said. I would say that the dialog in these movies is designed to be simplistic, understandable by children (who are Lucas' primary focus for the telling of his stories). As well as being understandable by children...the dialogue and acting should not overshadow the visual spectacle which is his main focus. Now, some of the goofy dialogue and poor acting may in fact detract from the story's focus...which is why Ep I is not liked so much, even by hard core fans. Ep II is much better, retrieving much of the wit from the originals...though still we have somewhat distracting performances from some of the actors. But visually, there has never been anything like it, in this respect it is overwhelmingly successful. The story is archetypal myth...however bad the actors are, I judge whethere it is 'good' or not, based on the concept, where the story is going. EpII does a good job of showing us the beginnings of Anakin's fall, and a clearer picture of Palpatine's machinations that will lead to the rise of the empire. So AOTC is 'good' in most of the ways it is supposed to be, from my perspective. (not as good as Ep IV and V...but still good)

"The Lord of the Rings" is a masterpiece of literary fantasy, beloved for over half a century by nearly all who have read it. Tolkien meticulously created a world of mythology and history that has real life and meaning. What is the purpose behind the LOTR movies? To represent the life and meaning of the works visually. That life and vision is already THERE, detailed exactly and 'correctly' by the creator and author, JRR Tolkien. With current technology it is finally possible to really make LOTR look and sound the way it is written, in almost all of its magnificence. So, did FOTR do this? I would say, nominally so. Visually middle earth has definately been brought to life. Great success. In regards to accurately portaying the mythical nature of the stories...something is lost in 'modernizing' the dialogue. Something is definately lost in changing the personalities of some of the characters, however slightly, as well as their relationships to eachother. It seems the writer and director were thinking more about their audience than they were about preserving and respecting the work of Tolkien. To me, this is not good. As a fan and lover of Tolkien's creation, what the first movie has presented is a visually beautiful, but sadly deviant version of the story I know so well. I can only hope that the remainder of the trilogy remains more true to the story and characters, without leaving out too much. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie thoroughly, and will enjoy the rest of them even more...but was disappointed, as I had anticipated, at last, a 'true' Lord of the Rings movie. Has the movie done what it ought to do? No...because people seeing the movie, never having read the books, will have little more than a crude understanding of Tolkien's work. Those truly loving and understanding Tolkien's works already will find a movie that does not quite show the respect it ought, for such a masterpiece of fantasy.

[Thorin]

Welcome to the Forum, Leto!

Very well put....It really makes sense from that perspective...

[DGoeij]

I don't really care for Star Wars, but I know a thought-out argument when I see one.

Welcome to the forum Leto.:)

[Leto]

Sorry for my "War and Peace" style post...but when I get going :) thank you for the welcome. It is nice to see others with as much enthusiasm for Tolkien as I have. :)

[purplechic144]

LOL, and I remember my first posts, they weren't like that . Good job, Leto. I definately think that the LOTR movies will get better as they go on, kind of like how I don't like the first Star Wars as much as I do the second and third ones to be made (of course they were inventing new kinds of special effects then and with litle money, whereas PJ has a large spending sum for visuals.) But I still cannot say that I could choose which is a better movie, both the stories are grrrrrreat!

[Talimon]

Great post Leto, but I have to defer on a few points.

Has the movie done what it ought to do? No...because people seeing the movie, never having read the books, will have little more than a crude understanding of Tolkien's work. Those truly loving and understanding Tolkien's works already will find a movie that does not quite show the respect it ought, for such a masterpiece of fantasy.

What the movie "ought" to have done is a subject that we could go on discussing forever. For you the answer was adapting the books to film as accurately as possible. For me it's much different, and let's not even talk about those who have never read Tolkien.

Your way of looking at the two movies is very subjective. What the movies are supposed to be for one person is very different to another. For me the reason Episode I and II aren't convincing is because of the acting. What I remember from the original trilogy is the charachter development, Lukes struggle with the dark side, his saga with Darth Vader, Yoda's timeless lines, Han and Leia's relationship. Everything felt so real. That's what makes Star Wars so gripping: you can actually believe it happened. It makes sense, in it's own way. Then there's the mythic aspect. Every scene seems to be building a mood, conveying something. The original Star Wars movies ARE visual story telling. That I will whole-heartedly agree with. But the new ones are pushing it. The acting detracts, the CG is used so excessively you nearly choke on it, and the scenes don't lead anywhere. By the end of Episode II the most I can say is that I know how Palpantine came about, and I know part of the reason why Anakin is mad. But really, there is nothing mythic here. Yoda fighting Doku didn't have any of the spiritual strength of the original lightsaber battles. Obi-wan fighting Vader wasn't just a test of fighting skills, it was a test of wills. Same with Luke fighting Vader in ESB and RotJ.

The only way I can see one being able to judge either movie is by the simplest measure: are the movies good. On thier own, no strings or expectations attached, which is the better movie? Because in 20 years, that's what will matter. In 20 years, when people forget the hype for Star Wars and the expectations for FotR, which will be more entertaining to watch? To me, there is no comparison between the two. FotR, as a movie, is both emotionally engrossing and visually mesmerizing. What I'd argue furthermore is that the reason it's so superb is because of the heavy use of Tolkien's material. It's Tolkien's words and descriptions that are the soul of the film. They help make it more then just an action film. Episode II to me is just an action film. It feels both cheap and fake. Even if I am in the most pessimistic mood I can be moved by FotR. Beind open minded and optimistic there are some scenes in Episode II I can't get through without sighing.

[Leto]

Of course it's all my opinion :) that goes without saying. (well, almost). Point is, I was raised on both Lord of the Rings and Star Wars. So I am reluctant to say one is 'better' than the others. Lord of the Rings is definately 'deeper'. Star Wars is something that I can never call 'bad', no matter what evidence anyone may present. ;) And I will never be totally happy with anything less than the 'real deal', when it comes to Tolkien's work. yah yah yah, there's all that marketing stuff, and money and time constraints, etc. I understand it...I just don't like it. :) I would like to see a mini-series style movie, someday...possibly animated...that shows every bit of LOTR, from start to finish, with all the right dialogue, exactly as it is in the books. It would have to be, maybe, 12 hour long installments...possibly 15. Watching it would be like reading a few chapters every night...

...I can dream...:)

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams." -Willy Wonka

[Talimon]

If that's how you want to look at it go ahead, but it's not a very balanced judgement. In terms of making money and all of that I'd say Lucas is the one that gives in. Lucas has the benefit of creating the movies from scratch instead of adapting, but it's plainly obvious that he's giving in to market demands. I mean, did you see the pilots in Episode I? You'd think Amnesty international was breathing down Lucas's back the whole time or something... And Jar-Jar? I don't see how you can say "Star Wars is something that I can never call 'bad', no matter what evidence anyone may present" to that.

What happens is that people choose to see LotR in only one very narrow-minded way. They take it word for word, and aren't ready to open up a bit. For me the tale of LotR is what is important. The emotions I feel, the moods it puts me in. If the movie can capture that it succeeds.

[Shmandalf]

Wonderful!

[Oren]

I am not really a big SW fan. And I have been waiting for TTT for a very long time! I wanted to see it as soon as I saw the first movie!

[purplechic144]

Please be kind when I ask this, I'm new to the Star Wars scene, were the books out BEFORE or AFTER the movies? Because the movies are always considered Lucas' vision, but i know that the story is already there, or is it? I am so confused!

[Talimon]

The simple answer is that the movies came first. While Lucas wrote and released a book called "Star Wars: A New Hope" before the movie came out, his innitial goal was to make it into a movie.

[ReadWryt]

Lucas didn't write a book before the movies came out...is that REALLY what you meant to type? There WAS no Star Wars book before the film was released...

I know this will probably shock all those who know my general feelings about Peter Jackson's movie, but I actually thought that it was better then Attack of the Clones. I was greatly underwhelmed with Lucas' movie and think that the guy really needs to hang it up where directing is concerned...

[Darth Saruman]

I liked AOTC, though the love scenes made me cringe. Obi wan rocked in that movie.
I can't speak for TT, but FOTR was a much better film.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by ReadWryt
Lucas didn't write a book before the movies came out...is that REALLY what you meant to type? There WAS no Star Wars book before the film was released...


Let me restate. There are many stories regarding the book called "Star Wars: A New Hope". It's officially written by George Lucas, but many people insist he didn't write it. The story I've heard (and the one I believe) is that he handed over a rough draft to Alan Dean Foster, who refined and edited it for release. I believe this rumour because I've read "Splinter of the Minds Eye", written by ADF, and the portrayal of Luke and other charachters is very similar to A New Hope. And as for the book being released before the movie, it was, only with a different title. It was called "Star Wars: From the adventures of Luke Skywalker". This edition is often auctioned for hundreds, if not at times thousands, of dollars. It's widely known it was released before the movie was released. I'm not saying it was released before the movie was concieved, but before it was released.

[unearthly16]

This is a Tolkien site - why even ask the question if you know basically what kind of answers you're going to get?

[Muffinly]

TT is going to be much better.
Attack of the clones has absolutely no plot.

[Rangerdave]

This may be a bit off topic, but what the heck.

Has anyone here ever read any of Edgar Rice Burrough's John Carter of Mars series?

It strikes me that the term Jedi Knight is very similar to ERB's term Jedak to refer to someone of knightly rank and Jed as greater nobility.

Just checking.

RD

[Aragorns_girl00]

TT way better than Star Wars!!!!

[Celebthôl]

hmm the poles says it all, anyway Star Wars is pants in comparisson to anything LOTR!!

Thôl

[Wynston]

TTT without a doubt. Attack of the Clones had some neat special effects, but in no way was it the story or epic drama that TTT is. I would rate TTT an 8 or 9 on a scale of ten and Attack of the Clones probably a 4 or 5. Its sad for Star Wars fans, like myself, but episodes I and II don't even do IV, V, and VI, any justice. Note, I didn't read any of this thread before posting, as I like to post my opinion before reading any others.

[Isenho]

man, The Two Towers is the best movie ever, THUS it is better than Attack of the Clones. ;)

[Nefmariel]

The Two Towers was way better, I can't even begin the comparison.

[Wulf of Dunland]

Duh.... What do you think?
It's the Tolkien Forum here.

Oh, I voted TTT... :D

[gabberjawa]

i would say the two towers!

[Gandalf White]

Yeah, Episode II was my least favorite. Real cool battle scenes, but everything else was a total drag.
Ugh, don't get me started on Star Wars. Episode I is the best one IMO.

[Samwise_hero]

I went and saw TT on the 26th of Dec which was opening day and i wasn't really surprised at all. It's not that the 2nd movie of the LOTR trilogy wasn't good but it's just that i think...........well with attack of the clones i guess it was exciting because the people had changed. They had aged and there were those little surprises like Yoda fighting. In the Two Towers no one had changed and i guess since i already know what is going happen in the LOTR trilogy, because i read the books, it's kinda like i can just settle back and know what is coming.
It is amazing that PJ could bring to life such a difficult and complicated twist of events, i praise his work for that, it's just i know what is going to happen and i like surprises, so from now on, i think i'll be more of a Star Wars fan in Movies and A LOTR fan in books.:)

[Kiroshar]

This is an old thread, so most of us have now seen both movies.

In my opinion, there is no dobt that The Two Towers is a better film.

Just about everything Lucas has done with Star Wars after the Emipre Strikes Back is aimed at Happy Meal children, is poorly casted, poorly directed, and is often poorly written.

Other than the last 1/2 hour, Attack of the Clones is quite boring.

At times, it looks more like a TRON or Space Ace video game rather than a Star Wars movie.

Lucas also writes in Earthen cliche's that dispell the "long, long, ago in a galaxy far, far, away" belief. He may have well just casted Will Smith if he was going to do that.

The Two Towers had the feel of another place and another time. The characters were well written and well cast for the most part. It flowed better and had better humor and better emotion.

Peter Jackson had a better source material to work with, but he also had the burden of adapting one of the most well read fantasy novels of all time.

[Samwise_hero]

PJ also had something to work with, GL thought all of his stuff up. I'm not saying that PJ couldn't have done his own movie from scratch (every idea his own) but you gotta give GL some major credit for doing the job he did.

[Valdarmyr]

Originally posted by Kiroshar
In my opinion, there is no dobt that The Two Towers is a better film.

The Two Towers had the feel of another place and another time. The characters were well written and well cast for the most part. It flowed better and had better humor and better emotion.

I agree. I was a huge Star Wars fan from the beginning. And while I still like and admire SW Episodes 4, 5 and 6 in that order, there's no question in my mind that TTT is better than AOTC. It has more depth, more breadth, more relatability to my life, and I think Jackson did a better job directing TTT than George Lucas did with AOTC.

[NetherDemon]

Originally posted by Gloer
Attack of the Clones - Lucas strikes back
...hard.

After the criticism of the childishness of the Episode I and after the stunning success of a dark, grim and scary fantasy tale called the FOTR, no one really needed Star Wars anymore. We had LOTR! Lucas had lost it and the Episode II was pre-titled: Lost in space. But it got worse:" Attack of the...CLOWNS"?? My god! That Jar Jar Binks was already a desaster alone!

But now it seems to be that none of this pre-bashing does credit to what is approaching...

The trailers are magnifficent. The music is superb. But so it was the last time.

Why am I am I so sure Star Wars is back?

It is the story - What I know of the story written for the episodes 1-3 is that they are absolutely classical piece of work. Shakespeare would be proud of it. And it is all made for the big-screen. Unlike our Lotr.

After the Episode II there is some doing if TT wants to top it.

What do you think?


I know this was posted last May, but it deserves to be dug up again. This is what happenes when you base a movie on it's trailer.

Star Wars- Episode 2: Attack of the Clones was one of the worse movies ever made - EVER (second only to Star Wars Episode 1: Phantom Menace). That movie was not made by movie makers - it was made by Video Game Programmers. The dialogue was ATTROCIOUS. The story was too predictable. Using Christopher Lee was a last ditch effort to add some quality acting to the movie - but not even he could save the movie. Lucas has lost his vision and his ability to tell a story. I don't care if he makes the last movie - it will definately suck unless McAllum (Exec Producer) can convince Lucas to let somone else write AND direct the last movie. It'll probably be just as awful as the last two. And I love how the TV commercial for AOTC is pushing that fact that it's the first digitally transferred DVD - because there is NOTHING else nostalgic about it.

Poor Lucas. His reputation has been completely destroyed. And don't give me the "laughing all the way to the bank" excuse - he has a HUGE ego and it's definately getting hurt by his lack of film making ingenuity. Money only softens the blow.