Armies of Middle Earth

[JeffF.]

It has long been an interest of mine to determine the approximate size of the armies of Middle Earth aournd the time of the War of the Ring. I would like to run my conclusions past the readers and participants of the forum to see if anyone has any additional information to add or suggestions to make. My sources are the LOTR trilogy, the Hobbit and Unfinished Tales.


Army of Rohan. 12,000-13,000. This was the easiest because UT states plainly that the full muster of Rohan was 100 eoreds each not less than 120 riders. It also states that doubtless many more than 12,000 could be mustered so that Theoden would not leave his strongholds undefended even if he did ride with the full muster to Gondor.

Army of Gondor. 20,000-21,000. This is based on Imrahil's comment at the last debate that the size of the force they were sending against Mordor (seven thousand) was scarcely the size of the vanguard of the army in the days of its strength. In Medieval armies the vanguard is almost universally 1/3 of the total force. This is also based on the approximate size of the garrison of Minas Tirith (after being reinforced from the fiefs) which I reckon at about 6,000 (3,000 from the fiefs and the estimate of 3,000 in the usual garrison--based on Aragorn's statments at Last Debate on the strength coming up from the South and the number of defenders being left behind being at least as strong as prior to the siege.

Army of Thranduil. 3,000. This is based on his strength at the Battle of Five Armies where he had 1,000 elvish spearmen and the estimate of 1,000 bowmen (the bow being the best known weapon of the Wood Elves) and the determination that he would not have left his forest stronghold unguarded (a reasonable gues that he would not have taken any more than 2/3 of his available warriors).

Army of Dain. 2,000 This is based on the strength of Dain's force at the battle of Five Armies 500 axe bearing dwarves (a force solely from the iron Hills), the fact that Thorin requested that the ravens bear word to his kin in the north, west and east (of whom only the iron Hills dwarves had arrived) and the fact that Gimli states that they had increased in strength by the time of the War of the Ring.

Army of Dale. 2,000. This is a tenous number based on Bard's force at the battle of Five Armies, the men and dwarves were in one wing and the elves in the other. There were 500 dwarves, 1,000 elf-spearmen (and my estimated 1,000 elf-bowmen) so I would anticiapte that the dwarves and elves together were at least near to the size of the elf wing say 1,000 men plus the 500 dwarves) and the fact that Gimli states that King Brand ruled "many men" and his land extended south and east. A look at the map shows that the logical bounds for such a realm are the rivers Running and Redwater. about half the size of Rohan or a little bigger than Lebinin in Gondor. This area had been severely depopulated but was since on the mend since the demise of Smaug.

Woodmen and Beornings 1,200. This is based on the incident of Isildur's death as told in UT. The woodmen got together a force to contest the 2,000+ orcs that attacked Isildur and his 200 man guard. Given the inferior fighting qualities of orcs it would still require a significant force (say half the number as the orc host plus they would not have left their homes unguarded. Since there were no Beornings at the time of the hobbit I assumed they were one people that divided (but kept their cultural ties) by the time of the War and they had a relatively stable population (a great achievement given the evil things that were on the increase in Mirkwood).

Army of Lorien 3,500-4,000. This is based on my estimate of the total of Thranduil's army and the various statements in UT that say by the time of the War that most of the Silvan elves lived in Lorien as opposed to Greenwood (which had been opposite in the Second Age)

Hobbitry in Arms. 700-1000. In the scouring of the shire it states that the hobbits numbered several thousand (definitely not including Bree and probably not including those of Buckland either). It is unclear whether these were only the hobbits of Hobbiton but it definitely does include females and children. Given the size of the force at Bywater this number is a reasonable estimate for the total force available to the Thain for defense.

Woses 1,400. I estimate the Woses in the Druadan forest only numbered a few hundred based on their ability to screen (in the forest) Theoden's march but that their kin in the Druwaith Iaur may have numbered around 1,000 since they were able to destroy the remnants of Saruman's army fleeing south from the battle with the Rohirrim (UT)

High Elves 1,500. I estimate that Rivendell probably had only a few hundred High Elf defenders since they were rapidly abandoning ME and many of the remainder no longer cared for ME matters. Grey Havens, the Forlond and Harlond probably had slightly larger contingents since most of the Noldor and Sindar refugees were in this area. These would probalby defend their havens and Rivendell and not be attacking anyone.


Saruman's Army 13,000-15,000 orcs and Dulendings. This assumes Gandalf's estimate of 10,000 orcs (as stated in his conversation with Treebeard) is correct and estimating that the Dunlendings could field several thousand warriors. It probably was more since this force would have to be able to take on Rohan, I'd prefer to say 20,000 total but Gandalf's estimate shouldn't be that far off.


Sauron's Armies,

At the Black Gate. 61,000-65,000 orcs, trolls, Southrons, Easterlings,. This is the clearest since it was plainly stated that they numbered ten times and more than ten times the 6,000 (remaining) warriors of the west standing on the two slag hills before the Black Gate.

In the Druadan forest 6,500-7,000 Easterlings and Orcs. Ghani-Buri-Ghan tells Theoden that a force that numbers "more" than his score of scores counted ten times and five waylays the road to Minas Tirith.

At Minas Tirith. 30,000-36,000. This is a conservative estimate based on the fact that the Haradrim alone outnumbered the Rohirrim 3 to 1 (giving the 18,000) and the fact that Variags of Khand, Orcs and Trolls were also part of the force.

At Dol Guldor 8,000-10,000 orcs and trolls. This is a vague estimate based on the fact that Dol-Guldor attacked Lorien three times (failing each), the same force invades Rohan (destroyed by Treebeard); and another force from Dol-Guldor simultaneously attacks Thranduil and is soundly defeated.

Army attacking Erebor. 5,000-6,000 Easterlings. This is also tenous, based on my estimates of the size of Dain's Dwarf Army and Brand's army of Men, the fact that they were initially defeated after a fiercely contested three day battle, and after a siege of the Lonely Mountain (in which both men and dwarves had taken refuge) they emerged to defeat the enemy.


I know that the Atlas of ME also makes estimates of the size of forces. I have tried to to this independently based on the same sources.

Any comments on the logic or illogic of my conclusions and estimates?

[Lantarion]

Well, as far as I can see you are at least very near the actual mark(s). Your reasoning is well-founded and logical, and the numbers are quite possible IMO. Outstanding work, I couldn't have done it better myself. :)

[JeffF.]

Thanks for the response. I've thought a lot about this.

[DRavisher]

Very nice to see those numbers JeffF, thanks.

[Turgon]

That's a fine piece of Scholarship JeffF. Well researched and well presented - well done! Can we expect 'Armies of Beleriand' next?...;)

[Pippin]

Awesome. Very nice work . You must´ve for sure spent lots of time giving the shape. Congratulations.

[JeffF.]

This is much more difficult because the only number given is the 10,000 for the Army of Gondolin. I estimate that the total number for Gondolin was closer to 12,000 since they would not have denuded the fortress of defenders and their army consisted of 12 battalions (Book Lost Tales). This number might be as much as 1/3 that of the total number of warriors available to Fingolfin (and his sons) and the Sons of Feanor. This is based on the fact that the Sons of Feanor led a smaller host of the Noldor than Fingolfin and his sons (the host of Finfarin's sons came over with Fingolfin's division of the Noldor).

At the time of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears I estimate that Turgon led 10,000 of his available 12,000, his brother Fingon led the same number (based upon the fact that Tugron's people would have thrived in their hidden fastness while Fingon's would have been continously attritted due to ongoing combat with Morgoth. Fingon would also have led a number of Edain. Since they seem to multilply faster than elves I'd say a safe estimate of Edain of all three houses was between 9,000-10,000. The sons of Feanor would have led around 25,000 the majority of whom would have been men (and the majority of those Easterlings before they defected). This is based upon the plan that Fingon's host would be the anvil and Maehdros' the hammer (the hammer should have more warriors than the anvil but the planning did not take into account Turgon's unleashing of the Gondolidrim). Thingol whose army consisted entirely of Sindar (and the Sindar being part of the Teleri who outnumbered the Noldor) would probably also have a very large army of that numerous folk. Since many of the Sindar took the lords of the Noldor as their sovereigns I estimate between 20,000-25,000 for Thingol and maybe 4,000-8,000 for the Green Elves of Ossiriand (whose late lord was Denethor).

The armies of Morgoth are much more difficult since they are not given numbers at all (with few exceptions, a footnote in Lost Tales says that Morgoth had only 7 Balrogs total and Gothmog's Troll Guard numbered at least 70--the number killed by Hurin). Based on the outcome of the battles I estimate that Morgoth's initial force (the baiting force) was around 35,000-45,000. The main force was at least twice that or more around 100,000-120,000 and the final force he unleashed at the end around 20,000-25,000. The number of dragons was probably relatively small (perhaps 20-25) given their strength that would still be formidable and perhaps undefeatable.

Of course these numbers are much more tenous than those for the Third Age since they are based entirely on Turgon's 10,000.

[Pippin]

Excelent Again, those numbers are priceless.

[DRavisher]

Quite the worker thou arth JeffF:) Thanks again.

[Elu Thingol]

Wow JeffF this is really awesome I've gotta write this down somewhere.

GREAT JOB!

[Anarchist]

Wow that's cool!! Very well accomplished, my congratulations!!

[JeffF.]

These are my conclusions on the make-up or components of each army:

The Army of Rohan would consist mainly of medium cavalry and not as many heavily armed knights. This conclusion is due to the horse herding culture and the fact that the ratio of heavy cavalry to light in historic Scythian type cultures is about 1 to 10. Trade with Gondor would improve general armaments so that the majority cavalry would be partially armored and well armed (thus my conclusion they were medium cavalry). Excerpts from UT and LOTR leads me to believe that one out of ten riders would be horse archers. My conclusion is that in a typical Rohan host 1 of 10 heavy cavalry (envision Norman or Medieval Knights), 1 of 10 horse archers (like Scythian/Mongol), 8 of 10 medium cavalry (like Roman cavalry with torso armor, shields, helmets).

According to UT (Disaster at Gladden Fields) the Army of Gondor was mainly infantry but by the time of the War of the Ring we see evidence that there were significant mounted contingents (like the Knights of Dol Amroth). Archers would also be significant (like those of Pinnath Gelin and the Rangers of Ithilien).LOTR talks about both Axemen and spearmen. The signature weapon of Numenoreans seems to be the longsword. Based on typical historical medieval armies I believe they would have about 1/4 Cavalry (half heavy armored knights, half less well armored mounted sergeants/squires), 1/4 archers, 1/2 infantry (half longswordsmen remainder spearmen and axemen).

Beornings I conclude would be mainly heavy cavalry but by this I mean big men on big horses and not necessarily heavily armored but definitely heavy armed. This is due to their historic ties to the Rohirrim, and the need for mobility in the vales of Anduin and their reputed great stature. They would be also be a form of mounted infantry, that is willing and able to fight in the hills, mountains of the Misty Mountains as well as the eaves of Mirkwood.

Woodmen. These cousins of the Beornings would be mainly archers, axemen and swordsmen. Entirely infantry they would be much like the Rangers of Ithilien. Woodcrafty, they would excel in partisan warfare, the ambush and raid.

Army of Dale. Typical city state medieval army. They would probably have a higher ratio of cavalry due to their common ancestry with the Rohirrim. I'd say 1/3 cavalry (1/4 Knights remainder medium cavalry with a few horse archers). The infantry mainly longswordsmen (as they were in the Battle of Five Armies). They would be exceptionally well armed with their proximity and trade ties to the Dwarves of the Kingdom Under the Mountain with matchless weaponry and strong armor.

Elven Army of Thranduil. 1/2 archers and 1/2 spearmen. Traditionally poorly armored like their relatives the Green Elves of Ossirand. The bow and spear were their traditional weapons. Spears (long spears/Pikes) are not typical weapons for forest cultures but the short spears that can double as thrusting weapons and (at need) javelins are. Woodcrafty beyond the skill of the woodmen also ambushers and raiders.

Elven Army of Lorien. 1/2 archers and 1/2 spearmen. Similar to Thranduil's host they seem to have superior bows (as described in the gift of the Lothlorien bow to Legolas, said to be superior to his peoples, being stronger and it is assumed greater range and penetrability). Woodcrafty (like Thraduil's) They would have greater morale due to the overlordship of Galadriel and the faith in her power to protect Lorien.

Dwarves (of Erebor and Ered Luin). Almost entirely heavily armored axemen with stout chain mail, round shields and shortswords (as Gimli is described as well as the host of Dain at Battle of Five Armies). Though never mention in any Tolkien writings it woudl seem to me that dwarves would be partial to crossbows and composite bows both requiring the craftsmanship dwarves were famous for. This would give them a small but very effective body of missile troops (though the overwhelming majority of dwarves would seem to prefer close combat with the axe).

Hobbits/Men of Bree. Typical militia. The hobbits would seem to prefer bows and slings when it comes to combat. Probably 2/3 archers and slingers, remainder militia type spearmen (as most of the Bree men would be) with some armed with wood cutting axes, farm implements like scythes and flails (like giant nunchaku sticks AKA 'Nunchaks or Numchaks' actually evolved from an implement used to thresh grain).

High Elves. These few remaining would be the best armed with the weapons and armor of the Noldor. They would have significant cavalry 1/3-1/4 of the host. They would also be supported by many Sindarin archers. Few in number probably would man defenses of teh havens and Rivendell

Haradrim. These actually seem to be a coalition of different peoples similar to African and Middle East warriors. Said to have few horsemen these would be mainly infantry (spearmen with some archers) and medium cavalry similar to Saracens and Turks with light armor, scimitars and spears. They would also have a number of war elephants (mumakil), said to be much larger than elephants we know, difficult to control and liable to go beserk among their own troops as well as the enemy. Variags seem to be undescribed but should be similar to Haradrim in armament. Majority of infantry should be unarmored or with leather armor but all would carry shields and perhaps a few elite units with metal helms and armor.

Easterlings. Again majority infantry with 'few' horsemen. Their armament would be similar to Haradrim but without Mumakil.

Orcs. Varying from heavily armored and armed Uruks to lightly armed goblin archers. These should be the majority of the Dark Lord's Infantry. Uruks seemed to be elite units say one out of ten in ratio.

Trolls. These are the shock troops of the Dark Lord. Armed with great hammers and protected by scales, they seem to be vulnerable only to special weapons like elven swords (like Sting) and barrow swords (like Pippin's). Few in number they are at most described as being 'companies' not battalions. Probably less than 100. If their were more they would have overwhelmed the Army of the West (standing before the Black Gate on the two slag hills) in short order, breaking thru their ranks and allowing the horde of Orcs and evil men in.

Dunlendings. A poorly armed people as described in UT (the battle of the Fords). Few with armor (except those with captured armor) and armed with spears, swords. They would also have some cavalry (unarmored except for champions and cheiftains)

[Turgon]

Fascinating JeffF - what a great thread - it's a rare thing when a person give such you such new, well-informed, insight - dare I ask if you can give us an 'Armies of the Last Alliance'?

[Camille]

WoW * bow* great job, just one thing about the Balrogs, it is also said in the Book of lost tales that Tuor killed 5 balrogs and the ones of the host of the hammer elves, family or.. sorry do not remember the name, bad English :) , killed several of them, so you are right about calculating the number of Morgoth's host is difficult if the writings are contradictory.
But Again *bow* excellent job
:)

[JeffF.]

The Last Alliance is one of my greatest interests. First to set up my conclusions, much of what is stated in the Silmarillion confuses me about this host. At Imladris it is described as "greater and fairer in arms" than any host seen in Middle Earth since the breaking of Thangorodrim. My assumption is this is an exagerration. The armament sent by Ar Pharazon (sp? my books are not with me) to Umbar to subdue Sauron was so great that his servants would not withstand them and deserted him (my question is how could a host of Numenoreans however great and imposing be more dangerous than the Host of the West at the Breaking of Thangorodrim that included Valar and Maiar as well as the Vanyar and Noldor (those-who-were-not-exiled). Anyway it is described as being the greatest since that and this includes only the Army of Arnor (presumably the Army of Gondor is still fighting at Ossigliath) and Gil-Galad's last army of Noldor and Sindar. The area of Arnor is described as not heavily populated (prior to Elendil's establishment of Arnor). Five ship loads of people (Elendil's share---Isildur with 3 and Anarion with 2 respectively) could not have multiplied into so vast a host in 100 + years even if they all the sparse population prior to their arrival took them as overlords. The main part of this northern host must have been Noldor and Sindar of Gil-Galad and Cirdan. As described in UT this force is joined by the host of Greenwood elves under Thraduil's father Oropher and the host of Lorien under Amdir (described as smaller than Oropher's host). These Silvan elves were only titular under Gil-Galad's command (since later they attacked without orders at the Battle of Dagorland). It is joined by a small army of Durin's Folk out of Khazud-dum (Moria) which it must be assumed had a token force of both the other two dwarf houses of the west, the Broadbeams and Firebeards (from excerpts in the Peoples of Middle Earth the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost) who had joined Durin's Folk in Khazud-dum after the destruction of their kingdoms at the end of the First Age. This force must have been joined at Dagorland by as many soldiers of the Army of Gondor as could be spared from the defences of Ossigliath or Minas Ithil. One note while it was said in Silmarillion that Minas Ithil was taken by Sauron UT describes that Minas Ithil was being held by two of Isildur's sons (Disaster at Gladden Fields) during the campaign against the Battle of Dagorland and Siege of Barad-dur so it must have been re-capured.

My conclusion is that the Army of the Last Alliance at the Battle of Dagorland numbered around 50,000. A few thousand of these were dwarf axemen mostly Longbeards but some Firebeards and Broadbeams. The remainder were about half elves (of all types) and half men (of all types).

The elf-host (say 20,000+) would be half High Elves of Lindon and Imladris (for simplicity includes the Sindarin elves of Lindon also) under Gil-Galad and Cirdan. The remaining half would be Silvan Elves of Lorien and Greenwood (AKA Mirkwood ). The reason I assign them so high a number is this is the first war the Silvan Elves fight in history so thy must have thrived while the Noldor and Sindar suffered attrition in the wars with Morgoth and Sauron.

The Army of Elendil, Isildur and Anarion (say 20,000+) would have had a few units of tall Numenoreans. These would be almost all infantry with longswords. There would be some cohorts of archers with the famous Numenorean steel bows (as described in UT Description of Numenor and Disaster at Gladden Fields). There were horsemen 'mostly' of non Numenorean descent (probably ancestors of the Rohirrim/Northmen) and most of these would be horse archers (again as described in UT). I conclude that there were two other types of units under the Dunedain. First Native men of the west adopting Dunedain culture and overlordship (with perhaps some offspring of intermarriage) and second Native men of the West allied to Elendil & sons but under their own chieftains or lords (like the Dead Men of Dunharrow when they were alive). The former would be almost as well armed as the Numenoreans with similar weapons and organization with perhaps a few unique military traits (perhaps a greater ratio of horsemen). The latter would have the arms of their ancestors and be much less well armed (according to the description of the host of the dead, spearmen, swordsmen as well as mounted warriors).

The armies of Sauron are more of a mystery but it can be reasonably assumed that it was similar to his army during the War of the Ring with the exception of the Uruks and Olog Hai which appear in the Third Age. That would be orcs, trolls, wargs, wolves, Easterlings and Southrons (in all likelihood with some mumakil). Some unique exceptions are a few units of Black Numenoreans (still a separate people prior to their absorption by the Haradrim) similar in armament and capabilty to their counterparts in Elendil's host as well as a few dwarves of the four eastern houses which would be armed with weapons and armor much superior to the orcs but not on a par with the Black Numenoreans.

Another sigficant point is JRRT's statement in the Silmarillion that some of all folk as well as beasts and birds were divided that day save the elves alone who fought under Gil-Galad. If this is to be taken literally (and that is a big IF) then the Ents fought (and some were on the side of the Dark Lord) and some orcs and trolls must have rebelled and purposely or accidentally fought on the side of the West (as I said in another post I envisioned some outcast orcs driven out by their more evil bretheren because of 'throwback' elf characteristics--imagine Goblin imps set out to die being rescued by similar outcasts who survived--- who banded together, persuaded a couple easily led trolls to join and offered their services to the lords of the West with the desire to kill the last representative of the cause of their torment--Sauron servant of Morgoth).

I would imagine that Sauron's tactics would be the time honored methods of those of Morgoth utilizing deception and baiting. A force 'seemingly great and yet but a part of all he had prepared' would stand before the Black Gate to lure the host of the West between the arms (the spurs that later mounted the Towers of the Teeth). As described in UT the Silvan elves rashly charge despite Gil-Galad's orders to wait. They overthrow the bait force and spring the main force of the Dark Lord who surround the rash Silvan elves and cause great casualties. The Host of the West in turn charge to the rescue and the Dark Lord host, pre-maturely sprung now fight at a disadvantage. The dwarves of the East cause great havoc against men and elves until Durin's Folk reveal themselves in wrath. The dwarves allied to evil fall back in dismay at the appearance of a host of their Eldest Father. Again the Host of the West drives the host of Mordor and Sauron unleashes his last reserve. Beasts of Mordor, battalions of great orcs, horsemen of the Easterlings and Southrons, companies of trolls all driven by the brigades of Black Numenoreans and the Nazgul smash into the disarrayed Army of the West. The Trolls cause great havoc among the non-Numenorean men and Silvan elves whose arms cannot withstand them and the Edain and High Elves with their blessed weapons cannot be everywhere. The Ents standing like a stately forest to the rear of the western host stride forward and engage the trolls, counterfeits of Morgoth made in mockery of Ents. The power of great roots compressed in time breaks the might of the stone of the trolls and they are destroyed. The Ents retreat wanting no part of any further conflict with any other folk except the orcs and the Mordor host falls back in final retreat through the Morannon into the vale of Udun, through the Isenmouthe and into Barad-dur to withstand a seven year siege during which they kill Anarion and sortie many times, at the last sortie led by Sauron himself they drive the warriors of the West all the way to the slopes of Orodruin, Mount Doom, where Gil-Galad and Elendil together fight Sauron to a standstill inflicting great wounds with Aiglos and Narsil but falling to the weapon of the Dark Lord until he himself suffers the wound from Isildur with the shard of his father's sword that cuts the One Ring from his hand.

I am currently writing a 'story of Middle Earth' about the campaign of the Last Alliance, starting with the initial attack on Minas Ithil, the battle of Dagorland, the siege of Barad-dur, the last sortie and the overthrow of Sauron and my research objective is to make it as accurate as possible within the context of the Silmarillion, LORT Appendices and Unfinished Tales. I am also writing a story during the War of the Ring about Thranduil's, the Beornings and the Woodsmen battle with the forces of Dol Guldor and the defence of the men of Dale and dwarves of Erebor against the Easterlings. A Dunedain Ranger unable to answer the summons Galadriel made for Aragorn's kindred to join him is the central character

[JeffF.]

Thanks for the accolades. I'm also confused about the apparent contradictions about the number of Balrogs or any of the Maiar for that matter. I believe that Tolkien's letter stating that Morgoth had no more than seven balrogs is what he eventually meant to be as final. I've often wondered why Gothmog the Lord of the Balrogs would have a Troll Guard. It makes sense only if there were not a large number of Balrogs. In the Silmarillion it talks of the death of only two balrogs, both killed in the overthrow of Gondolin. The fuller story of the fall of Gondolin told in the Book of Lost Tales is a draft and many aspects of it are not in accord with the Silmarillion, e.g. the great mechanical beasts that were used. In a way the seven Balrogs of Morgoth are like the nine Nazgul of Sauron. They serve as Captains of hosts and are the main, most senior and most deadly servants of their respective dark lords. The overthrow of even one is a major blow against evil.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
Army of Rohan. 12,000-13,000. This was the easiest because UT states plainly that the full muster of Rohan was 100 eoreds each not less than 120 riders. It also states that doubtless many more than 12,000 could be mustered so that Theoden would not leave his strongholds undefended even if he did ride with the full muster to Gondor.

This would be a full muster of the riders. I would guess they could likely muster an equal or double number of foot.


Army of Gondor. 20,000-21,000. This is based on Imrahil's comment at the last debate that the size of the force they were sending against Mordor (seven thousand) was scarcely the size of the vanguard of the army in the days of its strength. In Medieval armies the vanguard is almost universally 1/3 of the total force. This is also based on the approximate size of the garrison of Minas Tirith (after being reinforced from the fiefs) which I reckon at about 6,000 (3,000 from the fiefs and the estimate of 3,000 in the usual garrison--based on Aragorn's statments at Last Debate on the strength coming up from the South and the number of defenders being left behind being at least as strong as prior to the siege.

A little less than three thousands came from the 'provinces' to Minas Tirith. But they may seem to have sent only a tithe of their strength, for fear of assault from the south.
The Army of Gondor was undoubtedly larger than 20 thousands in its days of might. The Army of Gondor in the time of Ondoher was divided into a Northern and a (smaller) Southern Army, and each had a Centre, Left Wing and Right Wing.


Army of Thranduil. 3,000. This is based on his strength at the Battle of Five Armies where he had 1,000 elvish spearmen and the estimate of 1,000 bowmen (the bow being the best known weapon of the Wood Elves) and the determination that he would not have left his forest stronghold unguarded (a reasonable gues that he would not have taken any more than 2/3 of his available warriors).

You are over estimating the number of bowmen at the Battle of Five Armies. By the descriptions given the spearmen were the main component, I doubt Thranduil had more than two hundred archers with him. But also note that Thranduil probably gathered what he could in haste, and left many Elves behind to aid the Lakemen who did not go to Erebor.


Army of Dain. 2,000 This is based on the strength of Dain's force at the battle of Five Armies 500 axe bearing dwarves (a force solely from the iron Hills), the fact that Thorin requested that the ravens bear word to his kin in the north, west and east (of whom only the iron Hills dwarves had arrived) and the fact that Gimli states that they had increased in strength by the time of the War of the Ring.

Possible.


Army of Dale. 2,000. This is a tenous number based on Bard's force at the battle of Five Armies, the men and dwarves were in one wing and the elves in the other. There were 500 dwarves, 1,000 elf-spearmen (and my estimated 1,000 elf-bowmen) so I would anticiapte that the dwarves and elves together were at least near to the size of the elf wing say 1,000 men plus the 500 dwarves) and the fact that Gimli states that King Brand ruled "many men" and his land extended south and east. A look at the map shows that the logical bounds for such a realm are the rivers Running and Redwater. about half the size of Rohan or a little bigger than Lebinin in Gondor. This area had been severely depopulated but was since on the mend since the demise of Smaug.

There is nothing indicating that Bard had 1000 men with him. Several hundreds is more likely (I doubt they outnumbered Dain's army). Some of Thranduil's Elves were sent with some of Bard's Men which may have evened the two wings up.


Woodmen and Beornings 1,200. This is based on the incident of Isildur's death as told in UT. The woodmen got together a force to contest the 2,000+ orcs that attacked Isildur and his 200 man guard. Given the inferior fighting qualities of orcs it would still require a significant force (say half the number as the orc host plus they would not have left their homes unguarded. Since there were no Beornings at the time of the hobbit I assumed they were one people that divided (but kept their cultural ties) by the time of the War and they had a relatively stable population (a great achievement given the evil things that were on the increase in Mirkwood).

There were no Beornings at the time of the hobbit?



Army of Lorien 3,500-4,000. This is based on my estimate of the total of Thranduil's army and the various statements in UT that say by the time of the War that most of the Silvan elves lived in Lorien as opposed to Greenwood (which had been opposite in the Second Age)

Provide the quote wherein it says most of the Silvan Elves lived in Lorien.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
These are my conclusions on the make-up or components of each army:
The Army of Rohan would consist mainly of medium cavalry and not as many heavily armed knights. This conclusion is due to the horse herding culture and the fact that the ratio of heavy cavalry to light in historic Scythian type cultures is about 1 to 10. Trade with Gondor would improve general armaments so that the majority cavalry would be partially armored and well armed (thus my conclusion they were medium cavalry). Excerpts from UT and LOTR leads me to believe that one out of ten riders would be horse archers. My conclusion is that in a typical Rohan host 1 of 10 heavy cavalry (envision Norman or Medieval Knights), 1 of 10 horse archers (like Scythian/Mongol), 8 of 10 medium cavalry (like Roman cavalry with torso armor, shields, helmets).

Theodred had 12 eoreds with him, one of which was archers. It may be that this was standard and one eored in 12 was bow armed, while it also seems likely that a few archers were included in each eored, so one tenth is not unlikely. What makes you think the Rohirrim were 'scythian' or 'mongol' like? They were at most and in portion semi-nomadic, and it was likely farmers and such that for example Grimbold drew his strength in foot soldiers from and there were towns (for example Aldburg).


According to UT (Disaster at Gladden Fields) the Army of Gondor was mainly infantry but by the time of the War of the Ring we see evidence that there were significant mounted contingents (like the Knights of Dol Amroth). Archers would also be significant (like those of Pinnath Gelin and the Rangers of Ithilien).LOTR talks about both Axemen and spearmen. The signature weapon of Numenoreans seems to be the longsword. Based on typical historical medieval armies I believe they would have about 1/4 Cavalry (half heavy armored knights, half less well armored mounted sergeants/squires), 1/4 archers, 1/2 infantry (half longswordsmen remainder spearmen and axemen).

One fourth cavalry is likely too high. Out of 7000 that headed for the Morannon, 1000 were horse, 6000 foot. Of those 1000 horse half were Rohirrim (as were 500 of the foot). There soldiers would primarily be armed with both spear and sword. It is perhaps significant that horses were uncommon in Minas Tirith, and Imrahil seemed to provide a major contingent of cavalry.


Beornings I conclude would be mainly heavy cavalry but by this I mean big men on big horses and not necessarily heavily armored but definitely heavy armed. This is due to their historic ties to the Rohirrim, and the need for mobility in the vales of Anduin and their reputed great stature. They would be also be a form of mounted infantry, that is willing and able to fight in the hills, mountains of the Misty Mountains as well as the eaves of Mirkwood.

There is nothing suggesting the Beornings were cavalry of any sort.


Army of Dale. Typical city state medieval army. They would probably have a higher ratio of cavalry due to their common ancestry with the Rohirrim. I'd say 1/3 cavalry (1/4 Knights remainder medium cavalry with a few horse archers). The infantry mainly longswordsmen (as they were in the Battle of Five Armies). They would be exceptionally well armed with their proximity and trade ties to the Dwarves of the Kingdom Under the Mountain with matchless weaponry and strong armor.

Likely much to high a proportion in cavalry.




Elven Army of Thranduil. 1/2 archers and 1/2 spearmen. Traditionally poorly armored like their relatives the Green Elves of Ossirand. The bow and spear were their traditional weapons. Spears (long spears/Pikes) are not typical weapons for forest cultures but the short spears that can double as thrusting weapons and (at need) javelins are. Woodcrafty beyond the skill of the woodmen also ambushers and raiders.

Elven Army of Lorien. 1/2 archers and 1/2 spearmen. Similar to Thranduil's host they seem to have superior bows (as described in the gift of the Lothlorien bow to Legolas, said to be superior to his peoples, being stronger and it is assumed greater range and penetrability). Woodcrafty (like Thraduil's) They would have greater morale due to the overlordship of Galadriel and the faith in her power to protect Lorien.

Poorly armoured in the Second Age, likely much better off in the Third. Swords were also used, mail is mentioned. It is possible that the Sindarin elements among them were axe armed.


Dwarves (of Erebor and Ered Luin). Almost entirely heavily armored axemen with stout chain mail, round shields and shortswords (as Gimli is described as well as the host of Dain at Battle of Five Armies). Though never mention in any Tolkien writings it woudl seem to me that dwarves would be partial to crossbows and composite bows both requiring the craftsmanship dwarves were famous for. This would give them a small but very effective body of missile troops (though the overwhelming majority of dwarves would seem to prefer close combat with the axe).


Gimli is not described as using a short sword, he has an axe. Dain's folk weilded mattocks and shortswords. Dwarves are mentioned as using bows, but crossbows are not mentioned at all. Spears are mentioned as well.




High Elves. These few remaining would be the best armed with the weapons and armor of the Noldor. They would have significant cavalry 1/3-1/4 of the host. They would also be supported by many Sindarin archers. Few in number probably would man defenses of teh havens and Rivendell

The favored weapon of the Sindar was the axe (and the short bow). Spears were also used but swords seem to have been reserved for special units with little strength in cavalry. The Noldor favoured swords but also used spears, axes, bows and longbows. Cavalry was used, both shock and missle.

[JeffF.]

Army of Rohan. I don't agree that the 1/2 or the bulk of the Rohirrim were infantry. In Theoden's conversation with the messenger of Gondor (ROTK, Muster of Rohan) he says "we are a people who fight rather upon horseback." The numbers of infantry are given in TT as 1,000 in Helm's Deep plus 1,000 that arrive later with Erkenbrand. This later force was the same as described in UT Battle of the Fords. The men of Westfold were unique among Rohirrim in having infantry. It is possible that these men might mount when called upon to join the full muster. In any case my estimate is a few thousand infantry for the Rohirrim besides the cavalry and these would be mainly greybeards and younglings whose task was to guard the fortresses of Dunharrow, Helm's Deep, and Edoras as well as the few Rohirrim (or descendants of orignal inhabitants absorbed into Rohirrim culture but who retained their preference for fighting on foot).

Army of Gondor. I agree that in the days of its strength the Army of Gondor was much stronger than 20,000 but my estimate was for the War of the Ring when the strength of Gondor had waned and though I failed to mention it I intended the strength estimate to mean the field army and not count the necessary garrisons of Minas Tirith, Pelargir and Dol Amroth. If we can take the 'tithe' statement literally (and it musn't necessarily be so-since the term is also used to mean a pittance) then muliplying the estimate of the 3,000 actual reinforcements to Minas tirith by 10 getting 30,000 adding the 2,000-3,000 or so actually in Minas Tirith would get us 32,000-33,000. With Minas Tirith and Pelargir as major fortresses (the later was the original haven of the Faithful and one of the oldest Numenorean cities in Middle Earth, and Dol Amroth (size unknown but as residence of the ruler of the fief of Belfalas perhaps a formidable fortress plus the fact that none of the fiefs would leave themselves undefended a 20,000 field army with 12-13,000 to guard the two major fortresses, one unknown size fortress, and the possibly numerous minor castles throughout Gondor is not unreasonable.

Army of Thranduil. Though I concede that anyone's guess is as good as mine a few hints throughout LORT makes me believe that the bow and not the spear is the main weapon of the Silvan Elves. First the fact that Legolas is an archer, second that in Galadriel's conversation with Frodo at her mirror she says, "nor even by the slender arrows of elven bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended" third that in the Silmarillion the Green Elves of Ossiriand (to whom the Silvans are closely related) are described as (intially) having few weapons of steel. Bone tipped arrows were common in our history prior to the advent of metal. It is reasonable to estimate that Silvan elves were intially bowmen and later developed superior bows and arrows as well as obtaining swords and spearheads later in their history but probably being most comfortable with the bow (to keep the iron shod and steel bearing orcs at a distance). Also I took as an example the Welsh armies of medieval history whose forest and hill bound people were in the majority archers as were most of the woodland folk in european medieval times.

Army of Dale/Bard's army. I agree that there is nothing to indicate the number of men Bard had with him. It is very possible that only the men of the village of Esgaroth (size unspecified) but as I based my estimate on the size of Thranduil's army (which I have given my reasons for) it would not make sense to put only men and dwarves on one spur and elves on the other at the Battle of Five Armies unless they were closer rather than farther apart in strength. Further in the Hobbit (Fire and Water) Bard's company of archers is only one of an unspecified number of companies (the others having fled the wrath of Smaug). Though JRRT uses the term 'company' loosely, in military terms he usually uses it as a signifcant force (the Knights of Dol Amroth -aside from the Dol Amroth infantry men-at-arms are described as a company, the Rangers of Ithilien another company--a force that defeated a regiment of Southrons as described in TT Of Stewed Herbs and Rabbit). Also it may be ludicrious for a few villagers to hail Bard as the new King and Girion's heir unless there was a hefty or sizable population/body of armed men to justify such a delcaration. I concede though, as I did originally that this number, 2,000, is the most tenous of my estimates.

Beornings. Certainly the ancestor of the Beornings existed at the time of the Hobbit but the tribe called the Beornings did not exist until as at the end of the Hobbit (The Return Journey) states, "Beorn became a great chief afterwards and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood."

Lorien. Again only hints, but in Unfinished Tales History of Galadriel and Celeborn, appendix titled The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves it states that Oropher led a numerous army (of the Greenwood/AKA Mirkwood Silvan elves and joined it with the "lesser" army of Lorien. Later in the same appendix it mentions that the host of Lorien lost more than half it's number while the of the host of Oropher less than a third remained. This factor combined with the supposition that under Galadriel the elves of Lorien thrived within her protected bounds while the elves of Mirkwood were constantly atritted due to strife with the growing evils within Mirkwood (the northern Silvan realm is once described as being most of the northern Greenwood/Mirkwood and by the time of the War of the Ring had dwindled to the area around Thranduil's palace-implying loss of population comensurate with the loss of territory) leads me to believe that after the Second Age there were more Silvan Elves in Lorien than there were in Mirkwood. Another factor I just re-read that would affect the composition of the Army of Lorien. It seems that Noldorin as well as Sindarin elves followed Galadriel and Celeborn into Eriador when the left Lindon. it is reasonable to assume that Noldorin and Sindarin elves followed their chosen lords into Lorien as well. While undoubtdly some of these would assume leadership positions under the Lord and Lady a few might compose one or two elite units of High Elves within the host of the Galadrim.

[JeffF.]

Hello, my previous reply was to your first inquiry, I must have posted my reply at the same time you posted your second inquiry.

Before I forget thanks for the thought provoking discussion.

My estimate that the Beornings being cavalry/mounted infantry and the Army of Dale having a higher than normal proportion of infantry is based upon the terrain and their kinship with the Rohirrim who were always described as a horse people. The vales of Anduin were one of the homes of the Eotheod (previous name of the Rohirrim) before they moved to Rohan. It is a reasonable assumption that of the few people they left behind (whose descendants were the Woodmen and Beornings) those who remained in the vales (the Beornings or more precisely thier anscestors) were horsemen like their Eotheod forebears. Same for the Men of Dale who are also described as kin to the Rohirrim. It seems reasonable that a people who dwell in the open areas east of Mirkwood (which is described as the original or first known home for the Eotheod/Rohirrim would continue to have sizable mounted contingents.

I agree that the Gondor forces should always mainly infantry and there is little evidence for significant mounted forces but the fact that the Knights of Dol Amroth existed and Kings like Earnur (who fell to threachery by the Lord Nazgul) who preferred the skills of knighthood lead me to believe that Gondor evolved into a typical medieval like realm and army with Knight signors supported by mounted sergeants and mounted squires became a growing part of the army. Gandalf states in his conversation with Denethor that the one advantage they have over the enemy is that they (the enemy have few horsemen). Though Denethor retorts that he also has few horsemen evidently there are enought for Gandalf to believe he has an advantage over the enemy. A significant mounted force for Gondor also goes far to explaining their ability to withstand the the onslaught of near overwhelming numbers of Haradrim and Easterlings. the fact that Gondor at different time in its history brings war to the Haradrim and the lands near the Sea of Rhun, both of which have significant plains leads me to believe that Gondor must have been capable of fielding a sizeable mounted force. the force sent to the Black Gate is not necessarily representative of a typical army of Gondor since it is stated in the Last Debate that the land in which they will campaign is too poor to sustain a large cavalry force that arm was intentionally minimized. A note in european medieval campaigns March (the time of this campaign) is too early to march and fight with a mounted force as there is insufficient grazing to maintain the horses unless thier feed grain is carried (a logistical nightmare for wagon bound supply trains). I believe it is significant that of the 1,000 horsemen taken by that last host of the west 1/2 are Men of Gondor (the Rangers of the north being a token force). Again though I must concede that it is supposition and not supported by any statement within JRRT book.

Tar Elenion, though I look forward to your opinions as well as anyone elses could you offer the reasons why you believe my estimates or conclusions are off? It is my intention to do so with my own (as I believe I have been doing). thanks again. One note, as a constant student and old instructor of Military Science and Military History I find that my views on military matters are often clouded by my experience and previous studies (that is I think within the box that I have constructed for myself) and I look forward to any and all "outside the box" ideas but fervently desire the 'why' behind them.

best regards,

JeffF.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
Army of Rohan. I don't agree that the 1/2 or the bulk of the Rohirrim were infantry. In Theoden's conversation with the messenger of Gondor (ROTK, Muster of Rohan) he says "we are a people who fight rather upon horseback."

Certainly, and that is the mainstay of their armed forces. They could muster at the time of LotR some 12000 or so armed and trained riders (the 'professional' soldiers). But the infantry which I speculated might be equal or double the number of riders would primarily be levied troops drawn from the general ablebodied populace. Theodred 'manned the approaches to the Fords with sturdy men on foot from the levies of Westfold'.


The numbers of infantry are given in TT as 1,000 in Helm's Deep plus 1,000 that arrive later with Erkenbrand. This later force was the same as described in UT Battle of the Fords. The men of Westfold were unique among Rohirrim in having infantry.

Do you have a quote to back up this statement that the men of Westfold were unique in having infantry or is this merely supposition?


It is possible that these men might mount when called upon to join the full muster. In any case my estimate is a few thousand infantry for the Rohirrim besides the cavalry and these would be mainly greybeards and younglings whose task was to guard the fortresses of Dunharrow, Helm's Deep, and Edoras as well as the few Rohirrim (or descendants of orignal inhabitants absorbed into Rohirrim culture but who retained their preference for fighting on foot).

Erkenbrand, it is noted, as the chief lord in West-mark, was responsible for gathering together all those among its people capable of bearing arms. When Theodred fell he also took command of the Riders of the Western Muster. These are two seperate things. You might also note that while Erkenbrand was away from the Fords mustering men to defend Helm's Deep, Grimbold had command of the men of Westfold there, as well as the Theodred's cavalry. He uses the most part of the footsoldiers to garrison the earthworks at the western end and withdraws with the cavalry and the rest of his men to the east bank. This shows a distinction between the Riders (fully armed and trained, doubtless a time consuming and expensive task) and the foot. You might also note that at Edoras there were both "Riders and other armed men of the garrison" (see Battles of the Fords of Isen). It seems likely to me that there was a 'professional' core of foot-soldiers in addition to the Riders, and that these would be supplemented by levies from the East and West Marks

Army of Thranduil. Though I concede that anyone's guess is as good as mine a few hints throughout LORT makes me believe that the bow and not the spear is the main weapon of the Silvan Elves. First the fact that Legolas is an archer, second that in Galadriel's conversation with Frodo at her mirror she says, "nor even by the slender arrows of elven bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended" third that in the Silmarillion the Green Elves of Ossiriand (to whom the Silvans are closely related) are described as (intially) having few weapons of steel.

My statement above was not what was the main weapon of the Silvan Elves but rather how many archers may have been with Thranduil at the Battle of Five Armies. JRRT notes the thousand spearmen and 500 dwarves, but does not give numbers for the archers or for the Men of Laketown this would indicate to me that these were in number smaller than the Dwarven contingent.


Army of Dale/Bard's army. I agree that there is nothing to indicate the number of men Bard had with him. It is very possible that only the men of the village of Esgaroth (size unspecified) but as I based my estimate on the size of Thranduil's army (which I have given my reasons for) it would not make sense to put only men and dwarves on one spur and elves on the other at the Battle of Five Armies unless they were closer rather than farther apart in strength.

This is what I base my numbers on as well. Looking at JRRT's drawings of it Esgaroth is not large in size, and while all the men of arms who were still able marched with the Thranduil's array it seems to me that The Elven host was much larger than that of the Men (even before the town was destroyed it is noted the the Master of Laketown wanted no trouble with the Elvenking who was "very powerful in those parts". If the Elves number about 1200 or so (1000 spearmen plus archers) and the Dwarves 500, then several hundred Men and the Dwarves (plus some Elves) that were at stationed on the eastern spur and its height while the Elves manned the southern spur this would make them roughly equivalent in number.


Further in the Hobbit (Fire and Water) Bard's company of archers is only one of an unspecified number of companies (the others having fled the wrath of Smaug). Though JRRT uses the term 'company' loosely, in military terms he usually uses it as a signifcant force (the Knights of Dol Amroth -aside from the Dol Amroth infantry men-at-arms are described as a company, the Rangers of Ithilien another company--a force that defeated a regiment of Southrons as described in TT Of Stewed Herbs and Rabbit).

Aragorn, Elladan, Elrohir, Legolas, Gimli and 30 Rangers are also described as a company. Indeed even in The Hobbit at Laketown it is noted that a "large house was given up to Thorin and his company".


Beornings. Certainly the ancestor of the Beornings existed at the time of the Hobbit but the tribe called the Beornings did not exist until as at the end of the Hobbit (The Return Journey) states, "Beorn became a great chief afterwards and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood."

But who did he become a great chief of? Note that when Beorn returned from the Battle of Five Armies "men came from far and wide to feast at Beorn's bidding". I would say these were his kinsfolk (or tribe). They may not have been called the Beornings until then but this is doubtless them.


Lorien. Again only hints, but in Unfinished Tales History of Galadriel and Celeborn, appendix titled The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves it states that Oropher led a numerous army (of the Greenwood/AKA Mirkwood Silvan elves and joined it with the "lesser" army of Lorien. Later in the same appendix it mentions that the host of Lorien lost more than half it's number while the of the host of Oropher less than a third remained.

Thranduil returned with "barely a third" of the "great army of his [Oropher's] numerous people". But it does not say that the host of Lorien lost only half its number. The host of Lorien lost half its number in the first battle on Dagorlad when it was cut off and driven into the Dead Marshes. The war continued for another seven years. Amroth doubtlessly lost more of his folk in later fighting as well.



This factor combined with the supposition that under Galadriel the elves of Lorien thrived within her protected bounds while the elves of Mirkwood were constantly atritted due to strife with the growing evils within Mirkwood (the northern Silvan realm is once described as being most of the northern Greenwood/Mirkwood and by the time of the War of the Ring had dwindled to the area around Thranduil's palace-implying loss of population comensurate with the loss of territory) leads me to believe that after the Second Age there were more Silvan Elves in Lorien than there were in Mirkwood.

The Elves of Lorien were not 'within Galadriel's protected bounds' until after the death of Amroth nearly 2000 years after the Last Alliance. Amroth, Nimrodel and many Elves fled from Lorien "when evil arose in Moria" ca. 1980. There was time for growth for both realms during large portions of the Third Age.


Another factor I just re-read that would affect the composition of the Army of Lorien. It seems that Noldorin as well as Sindarin elves followed Galadriel and Celeborn into Eriador when the left Lindon. it is reasonable to assume that Noldorin and Sindarin elves followed their chosen lords into Lorien as well. While undoubtdly some of these would assume leadership positions under the Lord and Lady a few might compose one or two elite units of High Elves within the host of the Galadrim.
Many Sindar passed east earlier in the Second Age and were involved in the founding of realms among the Silvan Elves. Oropher and Thranduil had a number of these among their people as did Amdir/Malgalad when he founded the Kingdom of Lorien. Many Noldor when fleeing from the destruction of Eregion (either with Celeborn or with both Celeborn and Galadriel) went to Lorien and mingled with its people, the majority of the survivors of Eregion went with Elrond however.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
Hello, my previous reply was to your first inquiry, I must have posted my reply at the same time you posted your second inquiry.

Before I forget thanks for the thought provoking discussion.

You are welcome.


My estimate that the Beornings being cavalry/mounted infantry and the Army of Dale having a higher than normal proportion of infantry is based upon the terrain and their kinship with the Rohirrim who were always described as a horse people. The vales of Anduin were one of the homes of the Eotheod (previous name of the Rohirrim) before they moved to Rohan. It is a reasonable assumption that of the few people they left behind (whose descendants were the Woodmen and Beornings) those who remained in the vales (the Beornings or more precisely thier anscestors) were horsemen like their Eotheod forebears. Same for the Men of Dale who are also described as kin to the Rohirrim. It seems reasonable that a people who dwell in the open areas east of Mirkwood (which is described as the original or first known home for the Eotheod/Rohirrim would continue to have sizable mounted contingents.

Though the Woodmen and Beornings had kinship with the Rohirrim, they were not descended from the Eotheod, the kinship goes much further back. JRRT wrote (See App. A. II, the House of Eorl): "Eorl the Young was lord of the Men of Eotheod. That land lay near the sources of the Anduin, between the furthest ranges of the Misty Mountains and the northernmost parts of Mirkwood. The Eotheod had moved to those regions in the days of King Earnil II from lands in the vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden, and they were in origin close akin to the Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest. The forefathers of Eorl claimed descent from the Kings of Rhovanion [...]. They loved best the plains and wide fields, and they delighted in horses and in all feats of horsemanship, but there were many men in the middle vales of Anduin in those days [therefore they moved north when the Witch-king was overthrown]...". Note that the Beornings and Woodmen are extent while the Eotheod dwelt in the vales of the Anduin (and when one reads Disaster of the Gladden Fields in UT that it was Woodmen who got word to Thranduil of the Orcs attacking Isildur and even ambushed these Orcs themselves, a couple thousand years before Eorl). Also note that the Etheod are distinguished by their horsemanship this is not mentioned for the Beornings. The Beornings were also known as the "Beornings of the Wood" (not to good for cavalry) and they primarily kept the High Pass and Ford of Carrock open (and charged tolls for this), both of which would seem more suited for foot than horse. Just because the have kinship with the Rohirrim does not mean they must have been as horsebased as well. The Woodmen are noted as kin to the Rohirrim, but they are not a cavalry force.


I agree that the Gondor forces should always mainly infantry and there is little evidence for significant mounted forces but the fact that the Knights of Dol Amroth existed and Kings like Earnur (who fell to threachery by the Lord Nazgul) who preferred the skills of knighthood lead me to believe that Gondor evolved into a typical medieval like realm and army with Knight signors supported by mounted sergeants and mounted squires became a growing part of the army. Gandalf states in his conversation with Denethor that the one advantage they have over the enemy is that they (the enemy have few horsemen). Though Denethor retorts that he also has few horsemen evidently there are enought for Gandalf to believe he has an advantage over the enemy. A significant mounted force for Gondor also goes far to explaining their ability to withstand the the onslaught of near overwhelming numbers of Haradrim and Easterlings. the fact that Gondor at different time in its history brings war to the Haradrim and the lands near the Sea of Rhun, both of which have significant plains leads me to believe that Gondor must have been capable of fielding a sizeable mounted force.

While the Gondorians certainly had some 'native' cavalry, it seems more likely that the major contingents of the cavalry of Gondor came from their allies. Even when dispatching an army to aid the North Kingdom against Angmar much praised were the horses that came from the Vales of Anduin and with them the "riders tall and fair, proud princes of Rhovanion".

I do note your concession:
"Again though I must concede that it is supposition and not supported by any statement within JRRT book."


Tar Elenion, though I look forward to your opinions as well as anyone elses could you offer the reasons why you believe my estimates or conclusions are off? It is my intention to do so with my own (as I believe I have been doing). thanks again.

I think I have offered reasons and you are quite welcome. :)

[Lantarion]

Uh.. Wouldn't it be much easier to just look the numbers up from The Atlas of Middle-Earth? ;)

[JeffF.]

The Atlas is useful for outlining the various numbers of warriors but it makes few or no conclusions on forces whose strength is not given, and the point of my initial post was to determine the sterngth of as many forces as I could not just the ones given figures for. As a U.S. Army officer I have spent a great deal of time determinging strengths of forces based on imcomplete reports and estimating the size of the forces based on likely attrition, morale, training, state of nearby forces, state of forces with similary intensity of action etc. I'd much prefer to do it myself anyway and see if her conslusions are similar or different from my own.

[JeffF.]

In UT in the chapter Cirion and Eorl when Eorl takes his force south it is described as his full strength except for a few hundreds left behind that are too old or young to make the ride. This makes it reasonable to assume that the full muster of Eorl and the full muster of Rohan would be similar in composition, that is entirely or almost entirely mounted. Another statment in UT in the footnotes of that chapter states that, "A full muster would probably have produced many more thatn 12,000 riders, so that Rohan would have not been entirely denuded of trained defenders." (if Theoden took 10,000 as he said he might have been able to). If the same number of infantry had been available then riding to Minas Tirith with the full muster would not have been an issue, much less 10,000.

Since the Beornings near the Carrock dwelt in the same ground previously or at one time held by the Eothoed, that is the river vales and plains between the mountains and the wood it is reasonable to assume they would have had similar requirements for mobility as the Eotheod. Tolkein described the proportions of NW Middle Earth, as similar to Europe. That is the Shire was in distance to Mordor as England is to Bulgaria. The Anduin river valley is not a narrow valley. It is almost the width of the North German Plain with a river running through it. Such space requires mobility and a Scythian type culture would seem to be appropriate.

Since there is so little data on the Silvan elves no definitive conclusion can be made either way. Though we know that only a third of Oropher's host returned to Greenwood and more than half of the Lorien force fell at Dagorland we don't know what their numbers were to start with. Casualties during sieges are remarkable few though. Unless the fortress walls are assaulted (a different operation from a siege) few casualties will result to either side.

[DGoeij]

If I was wearing a hat I would have taken it off. Great job JeffF.!

I like the way this debate is going as well. Great way of learning new things about ME.:)

[JeffF.]

Hello and thanks for the encouragement. I love reading about ME and studying it in detail but I must admit a certain weakness for ME military matters!

best regards, Jeff

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
In UT in the chapter Cirion and Eorl when Eorl takes his force south it is described as his full strength except for a few hundreds left behind that are too old or young to make the ride. This makes it reasonable to assume that the full muster of Eorl and the full muster of Rohan would be similar in composition, that is entirely or almost entirely mounted. Another statment in UT in the footnotes of that chapter states that, "A full muster would probably have produced many more thatn 12,000 riders, so that Rohan would have not been entirely denuded of trained defenders." (if Theoden took 10,000 as he said he might have been able to). If the same number of infantry had been available then riding to Minas Tirith with the full muster would not have been an issue, much less 10,000.


I think you are still missing my point here. Those who were riders would be fully trained 'professionals'. The infantry would, for the most part, be miltia forces levied from the general populace. JRRT specifically notes infantry forces being levied. He also specifically notes that Edoras had both "Riders and other armed men of the garrison". This suggests a 'professional' infantry in addition to the infantry that was drawn from the levies.


Since the Beornings near the Carrock dwelt in the same ground previously or at one time held by the Eothoed, that is the river vales and plains between the mountains and the wood it is reasonable to assume they would have had similar requirements for mobility as the Eotheod. Tolkein described the proportions of NW Middle Earth, as similar to Europe. That is the Shire was in distance to Mordor as England is to Bulgaria. The Anduin river valley is not a narrow valley. It is almost the width of the North German Plain with a river running through it. Such space requires mobility and a Scythian type culture would seem to be appropriate.

JRRT wrote:
"The Eotheod had moved to those regions in the days of King Earnil II from lands in the vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden, and they were in origin close akin to the Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest. The forefathers of Eorl claimed descent from the Kings of Rhovanion [...]. They loved best the plains and wide fields, and they delighted in horses and in all feats of horsemanship, but there were many men in the middle vales of Anduin in those days"
Note that it is the Eotheod who "delighted in horses and in all feats of horsemanship", They are distinct in this from "many men in the middle vales of Anduin in those days". The "many men" include the "Beornings and the men of the west-eaves of the forest". It is JRRT who draws the distinction. The Beornings are called the "Beornings of the Wood". From what Gandalf says in The Hobbit:
"Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale."
and:
"I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears; 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself."
they also seem to have dwelt in the Misty Mountains at one point. Neither of these is indicative of a cavalry culture.

Since there is so little data on the Silvan elves no definitive conclusion can be made either way. Though we know that only a third of Oropher's host returned to Greenwood and more than half of the Lorien force fell at Dagorland we don't know what their numbers were to start with. Casualties during sieges are remarkable few though. Unless the fortress walls are assaulted (a different operation from a siege) few casualties will result to either side.

We know that Orophers was the greater and when he and Amdir Malgalad joined forces it was 'greater' enough that Oroper was the one who led the combined host. We that in the initial battle on Dagorlad Amdir lost half his force. There was a first assault on Mordor itself in which Oropher was slain when he rushed ahead with his 'most doughty warriors'. A 'first' assault implies there was more than one. However it does not say that Oropher lost 2/3rds of his force then. It is only by wars end that 2/3rds are gone. There was obviously enough action in the meantime for many to be slain. Including more of those from Lorien.
What does it matter what their numbers were to start with? The Elves of Greenwood had a larger population base (which is why they were able to assemble a great army, compared to Lorien's lesser) and would thus be able to recover their losses faster.

[JeffF.]

My point on the Rohirrim is that they were a horse culture and in such cultures all the able bodied men are horsemen normally and infantry only at need. I think the fact that Theoden left half the full muster behind when he went to Gondor supports the conclusion that there was no large force of infantry available. Since he tells the messenger of Gondor that he "will not leave his strongholds unmanned" he obviously intends to man them with the riders he leaves behind. If he had a large force of infantry even if it was only half or 1/3 the size of the full muster of riders this would not be an issue, i.e. there would be not need to leave behind riders merely to man strongholds.

When Gandalf describes the difference between Theoden and Denethor to Pippin he says that Gondor has much greater power than Rohan (Denethor/Theoden). If the Rohirrim had an infantry force the size you estimate than they would be more powerful or as powerful as Gondor, unlikely since their kingdom was much smaller.

When Treebeard describes the part his huorns played to King Aragorn and party as they accompanied the Ring-Bearer back north he says that if it wasn't for his ents and huorns that there would have been no Golden Hall for Eomer to return to. That supports the conclusion that even with the riders left behind Rohan was lightly defended, which wouldn't be the case if there were 12,000 infantry. I agree there must have been some infantry particularly the descendants of the previous occupants of that ex-region of Gondor but they probably numbered between 2,000 and 3,000 and would in all probability garrison Helm's Deep and Dunharrow (Edoras with it's wooden halls doesn't seem much of a fortress and seems typical of something a horse culture would build)

My point on the Beornings that lived near the Carrock is that the terrain would demand that they become a horse culture, like the history of our own Souix and Cheyenne, whom upon emigrating to the great plains adopted the horse culture and evolved away from the woodland indians they originally were. The Beornings may have been woodmen originally but living and fighting in the vales of Anduin would require mobility so it's logical that they would adopt the horse. My assumption that the Beornings are large men (as Beorn was) would mean that they would need and use large horses and even if they were not armored heavily they would still be considered heavy cavalry (in the way the Scots Greys and household cavalry, both unarmored were in the NApoleonic wars, the size of the horse is the main factor in the shock of heavy cavalry).

As far as the Silvan elves the strting numbers are key. If the Greenwood elves had 10,000 and the lorien elves had 3,000 than the outcome of the proportional losses would be much different than if the Greenwood elves had 10,000 and the lorien elves had 9,000. Thus without the original numbers your speculation is as good as mine however I still believe that the decline in the realm of Greenwood from almost the entire forest to the small area near Thranduil's caverns and the the shelter of Galadriel's power in Lothlorien through most of the 3rd Age (almost 2,000 years) would indicate that the Greenwood elves declined rapidly while the lorien elves thrived.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
My point on the Rohirrim is that they were a horse culture and in such cultures all the able bodied men are horsemen normally and infantry only at need. I think the fact that Theoden left half the full muster behind when he went to Gondor supports the conclusion that there was no large force of infantry available. Since he tells the messenger of Gondor that he "will not leave his strongholds unmanned" he obviously intends to man them with the riders he leaves behind. If he had a large force of infantry even if it was only half or 1/3 the size of the full muster of riders this would not be an issue, i.e. there would be not need to leave behind riders merely to man strongholds.

You still seem to be missing my point. The infantry I think they could have raised would be levied from the general population. They would not be professional soldiers such as the Riders. It takes time and is expensive to train and equip a man to fight from horseback like the Riders of Rohan did. The Rohirrim were a _settled_ people with farms and towns etc.
You seem to be suggesting that the Riders (13 thousands or so) and a couple thousand infantry were the whole of the ablebodied adult male population. Is my inference correct?


When Gandalf describes the difference between Theoden and Denethor to Pippin he says that Gondor has much greater power than Rohan (Denethor/Theoden). If the Rohirrim had an infantry force the size you estimate than they would be more powerful or as powerful as Gondor, unlikely since their kingdom was much smaller.

Not when you consider that Gondor would have a much larger pouplation base to draw from. The infantry force I think the Rohirrim could raise would not be professional soldiers. They would primarily be farmers and shepherds and townsfolk and craftsmen.
By _your_ own estimates Gondor was not much greater (you estimated Gondor as 20 to 21000 and Rohan as 12 to 13000. Not a huge difference, especially when you factor in the infantry JRRT did mention.


When Treebeard describes the part his huorns played to King Aragorn and party as they accompanied the Ring-Bearer back north he says that if it wasn't for his ents and huorns that there would have been no Golden Hall for Eomer to return to. That supports the conclusion that even with the riders left behind Rohan was lightly defended, which wouldn't be the case if there were 12,000 infantry. I agree there must have been some infantry particularly the descendants of the previous occupants of that ex-region of Gondor but they probably numbered between 2,000 and 3,000 and would in all probability garrison Helm's Deep and Dunharrow (Edoras with it's wooden halls doesn't seem much of a fortress and seems typical of something a horse culture would build)

It would be the case if the most part of the infantry I have mentioned were levied from the general population, that is they were not 'professional' soldiers (which the 'fully armed and trained' Riders were). In addition JRRT states that Edoras had both "Riders and other armed men of the garrison". Armed men other than Riders in Edoras suggests infantry. You should also note that what JRRT writes of the previous occupants is : "The people of that region had become few since the Plague, and most of those that remained had been slaughtered by the savage Easterlings", see App. A. Whatever few of the 'original' occupants of Calenardhon were left certainly became completely interbred and integrated into the much larger population (and culture) of the Rohirrim especially over the course of 500 years.


My point on the Beornings that lived near the Carrock is that the terrain would demand that they become a horse culture, like the history of our own Souix and Cheyenne, whom upon emigrating to the great plains adopted the horse culture and evolved away from the woodland indians they originally were. The Beornings may have been woodmen originally but living and fighting in the vales of Anduin would require mobility so it's logical that they would adopt the horse. My assumption that the Beornings are large men (as Beorn was) would mean that they would need and use large horses and even if they were not armored heavily they would still be considered heavy cavalry (in the way the Scots Greys and household cavalry, both unarmored were in the NApoleonic wars, the size of the horse is the main factor in the shock of heavy cavalry).

JRRT draws the distinction. He notes that when the Eotheod fled to the Vales of the Anduin, they were horsemen. He uses this to draw a distinction between them and the other Men of the Vales such as the "Beornings of the Wood" who seem to have come from the mountains. The Souix and Cheyenne were nomadic hunter/gathers dwelling on the Great Plains. The Beornings were a settled people living in homesteads in a river valley. They collected tolls and and kept open the High Pass and Ford of Carrock.


As far as the Silvan elves the strting numbers are key. If the Greenwood elves had 10,000 and the lorien elves had 3,000 than the outcome of the proportional losses would be much different than if the Greenwood elves had 10,000 and the lorien elves had 9,000.

What is your point? While I dont think a 10% difference would paritculaly account for of 'a great army of a numerous people' and a 'lesser army', lets just use that. Thranduil returns with a third say 3400 for simplicity. Lets say that Amroth returns with half (although he lost half in the first battle and the war continued for 7 years, thus must have lost more) or 4500. Amroth returns with 11oo more soldiers than Thranduil. So what? Thranduil has a larger population base with which to recoup his losses. Indeed Lorien is noted as a "little kingdom" soon after the rise of Dol Guldur.


Thus without the original numbers your speculation is as good as mine however I still believe that the decline in the realm of Greenwood from almost the entire forest to the small area near Thranduil's caverns and the the shelter of Galadriel's power in Lothlorien through most of the 3rd Age (almost 2,000 years) would indicate that the Greenwood elves declined rapidly while the lorien elves thrived.

First, Lorien was not under Galadriel's power for almost 2000 years. It was governed by Galadriel and Celeborn for the last 1000 years of the Third Age. Amroth died in 1981 when he and many of the Silvan Elves of Lorien fled south. At some point after this Celeborn and Galadriel take up residence in Lorien, which was called a "small but fair realm".
You keep suggesting that Thranduil's realm was limited to a small area around his halls. JRRT says that as the shadow increased the Silvan elves retreated before it until Thranduil established his realm in the northeast of the forest, not that it was limited to a small area around Thranduil's halls. Indeed it is suggested otherwise in The Hobbit where the Elvenking was considered very powerful by the master of Laketown, while the halls are noted as a refuge and strong place with folk mostly living elsewhere.

[JeffF.]

Yes, my contention is that the Rohirrim's full able bodied male population constituted the "Full Muster of Rohan" as opposed to any lesser call up which I speculate would be titled 'Select Muster' or something similar. Given their parallel to the old Anglo-Saxon mthat JRRT has referred in his inspriration for the Rohrrim culture/language I speculate that the Rohirrim have their counterparts to the Saxon standing army of housecarles and thegns (the personal eoreds of the three Marshals of the Mark and the Household of the King) the Select Fyrd, which are a number of designated and trained warriors per district (counterpart my speculative Select Muster) and the Great Fyrd, all able bodied men mustered for only great emergencies (counterpart the Full Muster). Again I say that Eorl's ride to Cirion is a precurser and example of that. He led "nothing less than his full strngth" 7,000 riders, some hundreds of horse archers and left only a few hundreds in support of the unfit men (UT Cirion and Eorl). This certainly appears to be most of the able bodied male population of the Eotheod/Rohirrim.

In that sense most of the Rohirrim (and the men of Gondor for that matter) were NOT professional soldiers. Some where like the standing eoreds of the King and Marshals, some would be those selected for gneral or annual call outs who trained regularly, while most would be men with other jobs, farmers, tradesmen, craftsmen etc called out only in emergencies and trained only occasionally (in Gondor the examples herdsmen and fisher folk).

As far as training normally you are absolutely correct about the long interval needed to train cavalrymen. My Civil War/Napoleonic War studies confirm that two years are needed to train a competent cavalryman. For a horse culture that would not be correct. Born and raised to the saddle, trained and tempered in the mounted hunt would itself be preparation for mounted warfare. Most training would only have to consist of collective (unit) training and the individual training with those weapons unique to warfare (the hunting spear and hunting bow would be adequate training for the lance and war bow but men would probably have to be trained with the sword).

As for my last statement on the Beornings, the Souix and Cheyenne became plainsmen/horsemen after evolving and emigrating from a woodland culture/area. The Vale of Anduin is not a narrow river valley like the Rhine it is a fairly wide and very long plain judging by the ME maps and is larger than the size of the North German Plain. Any people taking up residence there and having enemies both in the woods to the East and the mountains to the West and North would need and want mobility and if not evolving into a horse culture would definitely become very familiar with their use in mobile warfare and mounted combat.

As far as the Silvan elves I agree that the one with the larger population base should definitely be able to recover faster. To me the actual as opposed to speculative outcome would still not be clear because we have so little information on Elvish marriage (do they mate only with one partner?) and reproduction rates (evidently fairly low). Plus regardless of our opinions on the actual size of Thranduil's realm it defintely declined from almost all of Greenwood to an area much smaller. What effect this declining area had on population size and what effect the 'growing evil' in Mirkwood would have (attrition of the population) is unknown. How the population with a declining area and constant growing menace compares with a population protected for more than the last thousand years (1981-3019) is also unknown. Given the growing menace in Mirkwood and the lure of theprotective power of Galdriel in Lorien, and the kinship between the Silvan elves of both areas some emigration seems likely. Given these unknowns the loss of warriors may well have an effect if elvish women only marry once and do not marry after the loss of their husbands. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one but I appreciate the additional insights you've shown me in that issue.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
Yes, my contention is that the Rohirrim's full able bodied male population constituted the "Full Muster of Rohan" as opposed to any lesser call up which I speculate would be titled 'Select Muster' or something similar. Given their parallel to the old Anglo-Saxon mthat JRRT has referred in his inspriration for the Rohrrim culture/language I speculate that the Rohirrim have their counterparts to the Saxon standing army of housecarles and thegns (the personal eoreds of the three Marshals of the Mark and the Household of the King) the Select Fyrd, which are a number of designated and trained warriors per district (counterpart my speculative Select Muster) and the Great Fyrd, all able bodied men mustered for only great emergencies (counterpart the Full Muster). Again I say that Eorl's ride to Cirion is a precurser and example of that. He led "nothing less than his full strngth" 7,000 riders, some hundreds of horse archers and left only a few hundreds in support of the unfit men (UT Cirion and Eorl). This certainly appears to be most of the able bodied male population of the Eotheod/Rohirrim.
According to JRRT, in Rohan the 'eored' was _only_ applied to Riders fully trained for war serving for a term or permanently in the King's host. After Folcwine's reorganization an eored was one hundredth part of the Full Muster of Riders. Noting that it was in Rohan _only_ applied to those fully trained indicates that there were others who were not, and thus were not part of the Riders or the Full Muster (these would be the general populace, the farmers and sheprherds and craftsmen etc. from among whom for example the infantry forces in Westfold were levied).
Regarding the comparison between the Eotheod of Eorl and the Rohirrim. If the Eotheod's adult male population at the time of Eorl was between 8 and 9000 (7000 Riders, some hundreds of horse archers and a few hundreds left behind plus those too old or infirm etc); and that of the Rohirrim maybe 14 or 15000's, then there was very little increase in the population in the intervening _500_ years despite having an substantial increase in living space.


In that sense most of the Rohirrim (and the men of Gondor for that matter) were NOT professional soldiers. Some where like the standing eoreds of the King and Marshals, some would be those selected for gneral or annual call outs who trained regularly, while most would be men with other jobs, farmers, tradesmen, craftsmen etc called out only in emergencies and trained only occasionally (in Gondor the examples herdsmen and fisher folk).

Which makes sense with what I have speculated and what JRRT wrote (such as the Riders being those fully armed and trained for war serving for a time or permanently). But you have suggested that the Full Muster of Riders was essentially the entire able-bodied adult male population of Rohan.



As for my last statement on the Beornings, the Souix and Cheyenne became plainsmen/horsemen after evolving and emigrating from a woodland culture/area. The Vale of Anduin is not a narrow river valley like the Rhine it is a fairly wide and very long plain judging by the ME maps and is larger than the size of the North German Plain. Any people taking up residence there and having enemies both in the woods to the East and the mountains to the West and North would need and want mobility and if not evolving into a horse culture would definitely become very familiar with their use in mobile warfare and mounted combat.


This is not suggested or implied by the author who distinguishes the Eotheod from the Men of the Vale by the horsemanship of the Eotheod.


As far as the Silvan elves I agree that the one with the larger population base should definitely be able to recover faster. To me the actual as opposed to speculative outcome would still not be clear because we have so little information on Elvish marriage (do they mate only with one partner?) and reproduction rates (evidently fairly low).

According to JRRT the Eldar marry once and for life. They may remarry if their spouse is slain. The Eldar tended to have an average of four children though as time went on this number decreased. He also writes that the numbers of the Silvan Elves grew.


Plus regardless of our opinions on the actual size of Thranduil's realm it defintely declined from almost all of Greenwood to an area much smaller.

No it did not. JRRT wrote that Thraduil and his folk retreated northward before the shadow. JRRT wrote that at first they lived in the south of Greenwood, but due to the encroachments of Moria and the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel, Oropher withdrew north beyond the Gladden, though they still had intercourse with their kin in Lorien. Under Thranduil they seem to have remained there until the Shadow came to Dol Guldur. Then they retreated again and Thranduil established his realm in the northeast. As JRRT says "the Elvish folk of this realm migrated from the south". In essence they lived in different locations at different times.


What effect this declining area had on population size and what effect the 'growing evil' in Mirkwood would have (attrition of the population) is unknown. How the population with a declining area and constant growing menace compares with a population protected for more than the last thousand years (1981-3019) is also unknown.

As I pointed out above the realm did not decline in size. They migrated.


Given the growing menace in Mirkwood and the lure of theprotective power of Galdriel in Lorien, and the kinship between the Silvan elves of both areas some emigration seems likely.

This is pure speculation and not suggested by JRRT who wrote that they maintained constant intercourse "until the War of the Last Alliance". Legolas says that "It is long since any of my own folk journeyed back to the land whence we wandered in ages long ago". Celeborn makes a similar statement ("too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North").


Given these unknowns the loss of warriors may well have an effect if elvish women only marry once and do not marry after the loss of their husbands. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one but I appreciate the additional insights you've shown me in that issue.

You are welcome. :)

[DGoeij]

Still reading along with awe. I admire both your reasoning, keep up the good work.:)

[JeffF.]

Riders. I guess the only thing we disagree on is the number of infantry and the details of Rohirrim society. Nothing I said about the status of my speculative three categories of warriors goes against anything Tolkien wrote. In my view even those whom I said would be called out occasionally or in great emergencies were trained (even completely trained as for as their purpose was concerned), just not as well. In my view the Rohirrim are still a warrior society where boys are presented with their spears upon reaching a certain age and confirmed in their status as warriors in a similar manner to the ancient Celtic and Germanic tribes after they pass certain gates and tests in training and manhood. As adults most would do other things most of the time but all able bodied warriors could be called out at need, some would be called more often and a few almost all the time. In a Scythian style society this is very likely. My view that most of the infantry might be of the stock of the original descendants still could be the case, particularly if the horse culture folk traded with and protected the farmer folk in return for their products. Besides mixing seems to be a fairly rare event in Tolkien’s world (after thousands of years there are still Sindarin and Noldorin elves and not a blended people, groups of Numenoreans of full blood maintained themselves as separate from the men of ‘lesser blood’ in both Arnor and Gondor.

The limited population growth isn’t a concern. The Domesday Book outlining the status of William The Conquerer’s newly acquired English kingdom showed a 25% decline in population, even during a period without major war or significant plagues. Medieval histories of adequate detail show the same up and down fluctuations. Roman records of the provinces constituting Gaul show many fluctuations of population in its history. Byzantine and Turkish histories and records also show similar periods of decline and growth. Given the great winter, the plague and the warfare that the whole regions suffered, their Medieval-like conditions it is surprising they increased at all. Only in our own modern history has a constant increase in population been the norm.

But many factors convince me that the majority of the Rohirrim were horse warriors. Theoden’s statement saying that “we are a people who fight rather upon horseback,” and “we are a scattered people” indicate to me that they are more Scythian like than medieval farmer like. The fact that he left almost half the Full Muster to defend Rohan also convinces me that there were very few other troops available. There simply would have been NO need at all to leave these troops behind if there were 12,000 or even 6,000 infantry to guard the walls of Theoden’s strongholds. Helm’s Deep and Dunharrow in particular are easy to defend given their descriptions and the narrow approaches into them and you have yet to address any military reasoning that would explain the large size of that defending detachment for your estimate of infantry. The Krak de Chevalier, a mighty Crusader castle but open to attack on all sides was once defended successfully by 80 men against a force of thousands even though many of those 80 were not trained soldiers (most of those having been lured away). Twelve thousand infantry, even of tradesmen/farmers, would not need 6,000 riders to defend those fortresses.

Additionally, after another reading of UT Battle of the Fords of Isen, I have reason to believe that the ‘levies of men on foot form Westfold’ could very well have been dismounted riders. Grimbold, their commander later commands an eored and a wing of horsemen at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. As he is specifically a commander of troops from Westfold these could be the very same as those who fought the two battles at the Ford of Isen on foot. The defense of a ford and the small island in it and the close terrain of this area of Rohan explains why a force on foot supported by another on horseback would be more appropriate than a pure mounted force.

In my opinion there is just no evidence to support a significant Rohirrim infantry host of anything near 12,000 and the number of 2,000 is supported by the text (initial garrison of Helm’s Deep prior to the arrival of Theoden’s force and the relief force brought by Erkenbrand—TT, Helm’s Deep). Since that number does not include the casualties at the Fords of Isen (described as few in UT) nor the speculative garrisons of Edoras and Aldburg (size unknown) I find an estimate between 2,000 and 3,000 reasonable and supported by the text.

Beornings. Again, my contention, that a people occupying a wide and very long river plain would need and adopt mobility regardless of their origin, is not addressed. In all of actual history there is no instance of a plains culture retaining a walking tradition when horses were available (as the pre-Columbian tribes on the Great Plains did not have horses available). The Beornings who occupied the carrock and the high passes would still need mobility even if these were the only two areas they occupied (unlikely given all that ground). Even if we disagree on whether they were plainsmen or mountaineers/fordsmen they did live in an area with wide open areas with vast distances between the mountains and the wood.

The conclusions we can make about the Silvans and the difference on our opinions of their declining or retreating realm are purely speculative. The Germans occupied almost all of Europe at one time in WWII. They both retreated and their occupied area declined at the same time. Also the mating habits of a people who basically live forever cannot be adequately compared with normal folk like ourselves. It is relatively easy to calculate how many humans of any given age group are in a population given our limited ability to age, average death rates from natural causes etc to determine the number of reproductive/able people. You cannot do that with a people who live forever (do 7,000 year old elves still fell like fathering/mothering offspring?-who knows?).

You have defended your positions and assailed mine well and with both courtesy and detailed analysis. We have discussed civily and avoided the contention that occassionally appears on these posts. I salute your tenacity and fervor. I look forward our next discussion and await your last word with anticipation.

best regards,

JeffF.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
In my view the Rohirrim are still a warrior society where boys are presented with their spears upon reaching a certain age and confirmed in their status as warriors in a similar manner to the ancient Celtic and Germanic tribes after they pass certain gates and tests in training and manhood. As adults most would do other things most of the time but all able bodied warriors could be called out at need, some would be called more often and a few almost all the time.

JRRT writes that the Full Muster consisted of Riders and the Riders were the fully trained and armed warriors. He also notes that Edoras had men in its garrison other than Riders (these would presumably be 'professional' infantry). He also notes that the lords such as Erkenbrand were responsible for gathering the people of their lands to bear arms and resist invaders and these were not Riders.

My view that most of the infantry might be of the stock of the original descendants still could be the case, particularly if the horse culture folk traded with and protected the farmer folk in return for their products.

JRRT writes: "The people of that region had become few since the Plague, and most of those that remained had been slaughtered by the savage Easterlings", see App. A. In UT it says "during the Watchful Peace (from 2063 to 2460) the people of Calenhardon dwindled: the more vigorous, year by year, went eastward to hold the line of Anduin". So we have very few 'original inhabitants' by the time the Rohirrim are granted Calenhardon. What happened to those few that remained? JRRT writes that the 'hereditary gaurds' of Aglarond (Helm's Deep) were joined to those of Isengard when Eorl was granted Calenhardon, so it seems that of those few 'original inhabitants' left there was among them some emmigration out of Rohan into lands still controlled by Gondor. It seems unlikely that whatever was left of the original inhabitants after becoming few during the plague then most of those remaining being killed by Easterlings and then of those left some at least emigrate elsewhere, would maintain a distinct and seperate culture from the much more numerous Rohirrim (and would it seems by your suggestion they thrive and grow at a rate much greater than that of the Rohirrim).


Besides mixing seems to be a fairly rare event in Tolkien’s world (after thousands of years there are still Sindarin and Noldorin elves and not a blended people, groups of Numenoreans of full blood maintained themselves as separate from the men of ‘lesser blood’ in both Arnor and Gondor.

While some groups maintained their 'pure' bloodlines, intermarriage and 'mixing' of peoples is not that uncommon.
JRRT writes of the merging and mingling of the Noldor and Sindar in Beleriand (outside of Doriath), see the 'Grey Annals' in WotJ. In 'Quendi and Eldar' (also WotJ) he writes of the "growing amalgamation, outside Doriath, of the Noldor and Sindar into one people". For example both Voronwe and Gil-galad have Sindarin mothers. One can also note the merging of the Sindar with the Silvan Elves in both Eriador and in Greenwood/Vales of Anduin (see 'Quendi and Eldar' and 'Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves' in UT).
In UT (Battles of the Fords of Isen) it is also noted that for example the people of Angrenost "were already long before [the reign of Deor (2699-2718) of Rohan) of mixed blood" and friendlier towards the Dunlendings than the Northmen, and notes the same for the dwindling people of Calenhardon during the Watchful Peace.
In App. A JRRT writes that after the Kin-strife "the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men... and the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion", one can even note that the rider dispatched by Cirion who made it to Eorl, Borondir, claimed descent from the Northmen, while Thengel, father of Theoden and grandfather of Eomer was wed to Morwen of Lossarnach who was of "high Numenorean descent".


The limited population growth isn’t a concern.

JRRT writes in App. A that the Eotheod had grown numerous in the days of Leod father of Eorl and were "straitened" in their homes in the North. In UT he writes "In later days, however as the Rohirrim grew in power and numbers while Gondor declined...". While the Rohirrim were "grievously reduced by war and dearth" in the time of Helm, they had "recovered their former strength" by the time of Folcwine (see App. A). UT says "The Rohirrim had increased since the days of Folcwine".
It would seem odd that the Rohirrim have so little increase (not even a doubling of population by your statements) in 500 years, while the descendants of the original inhabitants of Calenhardon (who were essentially wiped out by the time of Eorl) would seem to expand exponentially while maintaining their cultural integrity in the same area and in the same amount of time.


But many factors convince me that the majority of the Rohirrim were horse warriors. Theoden’s statement saying that “we are a people who fight rather upon horseback,” and “we are a scattered people” indicate to me that they are more Scythian like than medieval farmer like.

The Scythians were (for most of their period) nomadic bands of plunderers from the steppes whom Herodotus notes as raiders and pillagers who ravaged Asia.
The Rohirrim were a settled folk, not nomads. JRRT writes in UT that they were descendants of the Northmen who "lived in the Wide plains between Mirkwood and the River Running... though their settled homes were in the eaves of the Forest and especially in the East Bight, which had largely been made by their felling of trees." And while they had "no great cities" they did live in "low wooden houses and stables". Later some remnants of these Northmen fleeing Rhovanion "settled in the Vales of Anduin". This land was already peopled and the Eotheod needed more room and so settled the land north of Mirkwood. When they settle Rohan they build towns such as Edoras and Aldburg and "for the most part their settled dwellings were about the feet of the White Mountains and in the glens and valleys of the south". The Rohirrim and their forebears had been a settled peoples countless generations, not nomadic raiders.

I think I will note that Diodorus Siculus wrote that the Scythians fielded an army of 30000 to defend the kingdom of Bosphorus. The army consisted of 10000 horse and 20000 foot. This was late in the fourth century BCE when the Scythians were becoming a settled people.


The fact that he left almost half the Full Muster to defend Rohan also convinces me that there were very few other troops available. There simply would have been NO need at all to leave these troops behind if there were 12,000 or even 6,000 infantry to guard the walls of Theoden’s strongholds. Helm’s Deep and Dunharrow in particular are easy to defend given their descriptions and the narrow approaches into them and you have yet to address any military reasoning that would explain the large size of that defending detachment for your estimate of infantry.The Krak de Chevalier, a mighty Crusader castle but open to attack on all sides was once defended successfully by 80 men against a force of thousands even though many of those 80 were not trained soldiers (most of those having been lured away). Twelve thousand infantry, even of tradesmen/farmers, would not need 6,000 riders to defend those fortresses.

The Krak was a single castle, that was effectively assaultable on only one side, the south, IIRC, as it was proteced by steeply falling hillsides. Rohan was land of some 50000 square miles. JRRT writes "Theoden's claim that he might in this great peril led out an expedition of ten thousand Riders ... was no doubt justified. The Rohirrim had increased since the days of Folcwine, and before the attacks of Saruman a Full Muster would probably have produced many more than twelve thousand Riders, so that Rohan would not have been entirely denuded of trained defenders. In the event, owing to losses in the western war, the hastiness of the Muster, and the threat from North and East, Theoden led out a host of some six thousand spears".


Additionally, after another reading of UT Battle of the Fords of Isen, I have reason to believe that the ‘levies of men on foot form Westfold’ could very well have been dismounted riders. Grimbold, their commander later commands an eored and a wing of horsemen at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. As he is specifically a commander of troops from Westfold these could be the very same as those who fought the two battles at the Ford of Isen on foot.

JRRT distinguishes between them. Grimbold was in command of the reargaurd of the Riders of the Western Muster under Theodred. Theodred then puts Grimbold in charge of the garrison of the west bank, which is stiffened with fifty dismounted Riders. The garrison is drawn from levies of Westfold ("sturdy men on foot"). Stiffened with the fully armed and trained professional Riders. Erkenbrand has command of Westfold after the death of Theodred. Grimbold mans the west bank of the fords again with his footsoldiers and east bank with the remainder of Theodred's cavalry (which he now commanded). JRRT notes of Erkenbrand that "it was his right and duty to gather all those among them [the folk of Westfold] able to bear arms and resist invasion. He thus command also of the Riders of the Western Muster...". Note the _"also"_. JRRT draws a distinction between the Riders of the Western Muster (fully armed and trained 'professionals') and the general inhabitants of Westfold, from whence come the levies of sturdy men on foot.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by JeffF.
Beornings. Again, my contention, that a people occupying a wide and very long river plain would need and adopt mobility regardless of their origin, is not addressed. In all of actual history there is no instance of a plains culture retaining a walking tradition when horses were available (as the pre-Columbian tribes on the Great Plains did not have horses available). The Beornings who occupied the carrock and the high passes would still need mobility even if these were the only two areas they occupied (unlikely given all that ground). Even if we disagree on whether they were plainsmen or mountaineers/fordsmen they did live in an area with wide open areas with vast distances between the mountains and the wood.

JRRT distinguishes between the Eotheod ('horse-people') and the Men of the Vales by the horsemanship of the Eotheod. In UT it is written that they only became known as the Eotheod when they were living in the Vales of Anduin. There very name 'horse-people' distinguishes them from the other residents of the Vales. Gimly calls the Beornings "Beornings of the Wood". In App. B it is noted that when Thranduil took the northern region of Greenwood and Celeborn the southern the "wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen". The Beornings are not a plains culture. Beorn had horses. It is likely that he even rode his horses. But Beorn did not ride into battle on a horse. There is no evidence that the Beornings were a horse culture or a cavalry force. There is evidence suggesting otherwise.


The conclusions we can make about the Silvans and the difference on our opinions of their declining or retreating realm are purely speculative.

I don't consider mine speculative. JRRT says they migrated. If he says they migrated then this is not 'speculation'. If you can post a quote and citation in which JRRT says that their realm was all of Greenwood and then declined I would be glad to look at it. Otherwise that is pure speculation and not supportable by the texts which note the 'migration' of the Silvan Elves.



You have defended your positions and assailed mine well and with both courtesy and detailed analysis. We have discussed civily and avoided the contention that occassionally appears on these posts. I salute your tenacity and fervor. I look forward our next discussion and await your last word with anticipation.

Thank you again, and you are welcome.

[Gil-Galad]

I just don't know what to say.It seems very illogical to me.I don't know why but Sauron's armies had to win at some places which they were really thousands of orcs,etc...I believe that the Sauron's troops were so much because the feeling of being in great dangerous is stronger.If I know that our guys don't have any chance I'll be more interested in reading as faster as it's possible.
But it still seems to me quite strange why |Sauron didn't win.He had enough time to destroy ,Dale etc......

[JeffF.]

Welcome Gil-Galad,
In the military we have a technique of analyzing a leaders past behavior and taking the result to use as a predictor for future tactical/strategic decisions. Sauron has 'historical' tendency to overestimate his own strength and underestimate that of his enemy. Some examples are his battle with wolfhound Huan (Silmarillion), his attack on Gil-Galad (Second Age) when the Numenorean reinforcement destroyed all his armies but a small bodyguard (Unfinished Tales), and his attack on Gondor (that resulted in The Last Alliance of Men and Elves) that he executed without building up his power sufficiently. In the War of the Ring he did the same thing. In fact, if he had massed his strength agains his enemies mmilitary center of gravity, Minas Tirith, it would have inevitably fallen regardless of Rohirrim, or reinforcements from the Southern fiefs. Had the armies from Dol Guldor that attacked Lorien and Thranduil massed with those Easterlings that attacked Dale, with the those at that appeared at the Black Gate (when the Captains of the West moved against Mordor), the force would have been overwhelming. More so if the force of Easterlings and Orcs in the Druadan was placed on the Pelennor near the entrance to the Rohan road and the Corsairs sailed to block reinforcements to the city from the south Minas Tirith would have been the beginning of a fall of dominos of all the stongholds of the West.

[Gil-Galad]

I'm wondering one thing why he attacked Gondor first.I think that if Sauron had attacked Dale,Lorien,etc..and defeat them he would have bigger success,cause Gondor wouldn't have any allies.Looking the amount of Sauron's army I think that would be the best strategy.
His mistake was that he believes the ring is in Minas Thirit and he desired so much for It that did big mistakes.In fact Gondor wasn't so powerful as before....

[JeffF.]

He didn't attack Minas Tirith first. If you refer to the Tale of Years in the appendix of Return of the King you see that Sauron attacks Dale/Erebor, Thranduil's kingdom, Lorien, Cair Andros, sends the Corsairs, and attacks Minas Tirith all within the same week. His tactical error was attacking everywhere instead of attacking at the decisive point. He dispersed his forces to attack many targets and as a result was not strong enough to take any of his objectives. Had he massed his forces (instead of dispersing them) against Minas Tirith it could not have held even if reinforced with Rohirrim and Gondor's levies from further territories. The remainder of targets should have been attacked in sequence with all available power. Sauron could easily have massed while keeping just enough forces in Dol Guldor and northern Rhun (near the borders of the kingdoms of Dale and Erebor) to tie them down. The Corsairs could have done the same thing against Gondor's coasts keeping them from sufficiently reinforcing Minas Tirith while Saruman's troops held Rohan's troops in place (or tried). That city would have stood with it's normal garrison with a few reinforcements against an overwhelming Mordor force. That overwhelming force could have been sent next against Lorien or Rohan, then Thranduil, then Dale/Erebor, and after that Rivendell and last the Havens.

[Tyaronumen]

Exactly... the use of overwhelming force at the point of greatest strategic influence! The only question that I would have is how long it would have taken Sauron to build up the logistical support to maintain an army of that size in the field -in a specific geographic region-.

Which is to say -- in medieval terms is actually in many ways logistically easier to support several smaller forces in varying areas because each force is more likely to be able to provide at least *some* of it's supplies and provisions from the territories through which these forces are passing (one of the reasons why medieval armies would often campaign only during the warm months... the other being that it's too damned cold in the winter, of course. :) )...

One large force (using your low end estimates for Sauron's forces gives 115,000... a very large force!!! Larger than any medieval (ie. pre-1492) field army that we have proof of...) in a specific geographic region -- such as isolating, besieging, and assaulting Minas Tirith -- might very swiftly denude the surrounding area of all supplies, etc.

And I wonder if the Dark Ages (I assume -- based upon the military organizations of groups such as the Rohirrim) logistical support that Sauron could lend would have been sufficient?

If nothing else, his supply train would've had to have been extremely large, and it would've made a wonderful target for Faramir's rangers... ;)

[JeffF.]

The logistical requirments are huge but the not more so than what must have been already arranged for in the areas they did move. Each of the forces I specified moved across huge distances so the supplies must have been arranged for. These forces also originate in widely separate areas which helps. It is the old Napoleonic saying "March divided but fight united." Proper planning and coordination would have enabled the forces from Rhun, Harad and Dol Guldor to arrive at Minas Tirith around the same time. Additionally the Dark Lord's possesion of Minas Morgul and East Ossigliath would have given him good places to establish supply bases to attack with the available mass he could have potentially mustered.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by JeffF.
The logistical requirments are huge but the not more so than what must have been already arranged for in the areas they did move. Each of the forces I specified moved across huge distances so the supplies must have been arranged for. These forces also originate in widely separate areas which helps. It is the old Napoleonic saying "March divided but fight united." Proper planning and coordination would have enabled the forces from Rhun, Harad and Dol Guldor to arrive at Minas Tirith around the same time. Additionally the Dark Lord's possesion of Minas Morgul and East Ossigliath would have given him good places to establish supply bases to attack with the available mass he could have potentially mustered.

Yeah, I know what you are saying... but in truth, it really is easier to deal logistically with several forces than a single large force if part of your supply chain is dependent upon locally procured supplies (and most armies of our Dark Ages did indeed have a fairly significant dependence on local goods)...

Your quote of the Napoleonic saying is certainly accurate, but I do ask you to recall that Napoleon's Grande Armee that he took into Russia was THE largest land force ever to wage war in Europe at the time... His army was around 400,000 men... a truly *LARGE* army in the Dark Ages (I'll use the dates 500 A.D. - 1071 A.D. which is when the Byzantines lost at Manzikert) was likely to have around 40,000-50,000 in the MOST EXTREME cases...

(There is a lot of documentation from the day that claims higher numbers... I used Manzikert as the end date, so I'll point out Runciman's estimates of the Byzantine strength (throughout the Empire -- not just involved in Manzikert) which were around 100,000... but almost all modern historians do not place much trust in these estimations, which were often overblown by as much as a factor of 10...)

The thing that gives me pause, more than any lack of ability to coordinate or plan, would be the availability of enough resources and a tactical doctrine that would allow effective distribution of them when these forces are highly concentrated...

It seems to me that the dispersion of the forces allowed Sauron to more easily supply his troops... the forces of Easterlings that assaulted Erebor and Dale might have been supplied from the Rhun, while the troops that assailed Minas Tirith could have been supplied by Southern Mordor, Harad, etc.

I wish t