GOP: Corporal Punishment

[daisy]

Awwwww, I 'm all choked up...sniff sniff...it's so beautiful... cue music...cue lights down....and...cut!

Hey, I have a topic I wanted to get some feedback on. Recently, in the summer actually, children were removed from their home by our Children's Aid Society because their parents would not promise to stop punishing their children with rods - they belong to The Curch of God and these people believe that they have a religious right to discipline their children using physical means. As well, in Ontario, Article 43 is going through final reading -this bill will severely limit people's rights to use corporal punishment on children. For instance, if I picked a kid up and placed him firmly in a seat on a schoolbus because he/she is refusing, I could be charged.

What are some opinions on disciplining children?

daisy 'can't even spank' mommy

[TheJospeh]

I'm melting, melting!!!!!!!!! Too much kindness, and I was to blame!!!!!! ;))

Anyway, I firmly plan to make sure my children have uncontrollable phobias of belts. They won't even be able to wear them, themselves! Law or no law! Just kidding.

My real opinion? Spanking good while they are young. I would say that once spanking uses embarassment as a deterent rather than pain the child is too old. Anything more than spanking and it's abuse.

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[daisy]

When does spanking not involve embarassment? So you would spank an infant, and a young baby, but then stop when they may be embarassed? What?
My daughter felt shame by the time she was a year and a half - for peeing her pants or breaking something....
And what would we spank for? Too much crying? Too much laughing? Peeing the bed? Eating too much food? Not cleaning the house?
I get angry at my daughter, trust me. Sometimes I have had to leave the room I am so mad and not sure what I'll do next. I have even tried to intellectualize spanking as effective.
I want a child who will use reasoning and conflict resolution to solve problems. I just think spanking is the tool of the not- too bright, not-too creative, and not-too patient.

And how come we can't spank adults? How come prisoners are not allowed to be physically punished in jail or by police? How come I can't spank that storeowner who sold me sour milk? Adults kill people and do nasty stuff and they don't get a spanking? If it really does work as a deterrent we should be spanking grown-ups like mad!
But no, we'll spank our kids for spilling their juice. Stupid.
I also think it boils down to the fact that I do not need to view my child as my possession. I do not own my child. Therefore, I do not have the right to physicallyn hurt my child. i will try to teach my child and correct her with consequences so she doen;t run across the street or steal candy but I do not own her.
Would you let your parent spank you right now? If no, why not?

[TheJospeh]

was when the child feels embarassed by being spanked they are too old to be spanked. When I was a little kid I didn't want to be spanked because it hurt. When my German Oma visited for the summer and spanked me--in public I might add--when I was like 13 I was really, really embarassed! It didn't hurt at all because I was much bigger than her but I'm just happy no one I know say it happen! ;))

I recommend you watch an episode of "The Tick". It's titled, The Tick vs. Charles. Charles is a little kid but he is a super-genius. His parents don't believe in discipline and therefore when he tries to crash the moon into the earth, they hope he's just "going through a phase" and do nothing.

I myself, still being at heart a kid of two years or so ;) know that "time-outs" and "go to your room with the TV and console game system" amount to nothing. Furthermore, spanking is also a very effective deterent. My dad is over 6 feet tall, but he never really spanked me hard. However, he was terrifying. My sisters were spared so many taunts and bruises because of the idea a spanking could happen.

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[Grond]

When I was 5 years old, my mother and I were in a dime store (anyone remember those?). I wanted a piece of candy and threw a tantrum. My mom said if I didn't stop she would spank me in the store. I didn't stop and she spank me right in the middle of the store in front of many people I knew (small town and all). It was not the pain of the spanking that modified my behavior, it was the keen embarassment of behaving in such a manner as to need a butt whipping that kept me well behaved in all public environments from that day forward.

My father handled it differently. When I misbehaved, I would have to go outside and pick out a good switch. The little switch caused no real damage but was extremely painful. Having to make sure I got a good switch was also a must. If it was too small you would get whipped twice, once with the small one and then again with the next one you picked out. Needless to say, I always picked out one that would pass his inspection.

My Mother was my best friend in the whole wide world before she died two years ago. My father is 85 and has been the best father a son could ever have hoped for. Both were there for me during good times and bad. I never felt that the way I was disciplined was wrong or unjust. It was simply the norm and one new that if one was bad, there were consequences. I was never physically or mentally abused. I was disciplined in a way that left an indeliable mark on my behavior and sometimes a very minor mark on my body. I feel today's reasoned approach in dealing with children is for the most part a waste of time. A young child doesn't understand the concept and a good pat on the bottom gets through to their little brains much quicker than 30 minutes of time out.

But, I'm 47 and very old fashioned. Blame my ancient views on the fact that I haven't raised children in over 15 years.

[Ciryaher]

I am but 16 and, although I didn't believe it was a good idea when it happened, I think that firm discipline raises your children better. My youngest brother gets away with just about everything with little more than a scolding, and he's turning out to be a monster (me and my objectivity ;) ).

I suppose kids can change for themselves, but without a constant discipline, I don't think kids can grow up to their full potential. I actually wish I'd had a bit more discipline, come to think about it...

[ReadWryt]

Man do I ever wish my parents were a lot firmer in their dealing with me in my misspent youth. I lost all respect for them by the time I was 15...respect that I am certain I would never have lost had they been more likely to put their foot down and tell me what's what. I was an insensative, disrespectfull and irresponsable cretin who thought it was a joke when my folks would tell me to be home by a certain hour or to make sure to do my homework.

I find now, looking back, that a good many years of my life were spent having to have LIFE beat the sense into me that my parents could have done had they not been so Tired, Old or worried about whether I would love them...or whatever made them throw their hands up in the air and give up. Mind you, I'm not blaming them, in fact I wish more strongly that I had just decided to do the right things as a child instead of take the path of Carnal and Emotional gratification at the expense of my foundational development, but what I went through is small potatoes compared to what I have seen since.

I was sitting in a bar at Happy Hour about 9 years ago talking to these two bored housewives about a particular Soap Opera that I knew a bit about due to the fact that I would tape it for a roomate to watch when she got home. I tried to pause the recording at the comercials, and so one ends up actually getting to know a little about the story and characters if you pay that much attention. They knew EVERYTHING about it and were astounded that I knew anything...

A bit later though, after I had begun reading something from my work, I overheard one of the mothers say to the other about her son, "..How was *I* supposed to know that his friends were gang members?".

Having never learned when to keep my mouth shut before this, I turned to the woman and said, "You mean to tell me that you know more about the lives and relations of a bunch of fictional characters in a TV series then you do about your own SON?"...and they moved away to a table...But there is what I feel is the crux of the problem now...getting parents to even be INVOLVED in their kids lives, let alone take action when they act improperly...

[greypilgrim]

i was a trouble-maker of the first order, when i was a teen, and i has alot of "spankings", but they didn't work. now i look back(being of more sound mind, and mature) and think "i should have been hit on more", because of all that nonsense! but my folks would punish me another way, and take away "privelages" like tv, or ground me or something, when they knew i was too old to be "spanked".
now my nephews are 9 and 12 years old, and NEVER get disciplined, and it gets to me really bad how they are sometimes, because we had in our house growing up lines that you didn't cross, and those lines are alot further back now, 25 years later, than when i was akid.
i think people nowadays are very weak, and i see alot of parents letting their children control them, instead of the parents themselves.
i don't know about it really though, and i don't expect to, until i have children of my own. but they will get disciplined if they cross the line. and when a proper whuppin' isn't enough to get them under control, then it will be "you're grounded to your room". i expect to do very much of this when the times come, if there is anything to be said of parent's curses upon their children.

[TheJospeh]

...ReadWryt that your Carnal and Emotional gratification was your foundational development? Granted you mis-behaved then but now you are obviously well-read, educated, blah blah, etc, etc right? So maybe that did some good?

I was always in trouble as a child both at home and at school. Really bad trouble a lot of the time. At my school there were a lot of goody-two-shoes, as well. Never broke a rule, always did what they were told. Guess what? They can't think for themselves. Once they hit University they sunk like stones in the field of achievement. They all became sheep. I would say you should only punish your child as a last hope. Let's face it, nationality aside, the world is pretty messed up. We haven't done such a hot job of things. So why do we presume to force OUR values on our kids? Why indoctrinate their minds into any mode of thought. I will not be raising my children as atheists even though I am one. Let their mind be unhindered and see if it can't eventually come up with anything better.

CHildren aren't knowledgeable to come up with a system of world government better than ours, however, they can still see that our system sucks (our system meaning everybody Canadians, Americans, Europeans, etc, etc). I would think that it was the healthy child that rebelled and "acted up".

Sincerely,
The Joseph

[ReadWryt]

My education was due to some natural thirst for knowlege instilled by my parent's forethought and wisdom in hiding the television in their bedroom for the earliest days of my life. My father built a gorgeous floor to ceiling book shelf out of mahogany he picked up when stationed in the Philippines, filled it with all manner of books starting with Dictionaries, Atlas' and Encyclopedia on the bottom, and the most "Adult" reading on the top. The general rule was that one could read anything they could reach without standing on anything. This didn't stop me from stacking encyclopedia from time to time to reach more advanced reading material, and I had several decades worth of records, LPs, 45s and 78s ranging from old Radio shows, Big Band and Jump music as well as nearly every comedian who ever was cut into vinyl.

As for any other changes that have happened to mold me into who I am today, loosing both my Father (to Asbestosis) and Mother (Emphyzema) before eventually making my friends so tired of my pathetic self pity and excuses lost me any "support" I had in my rebelious sloth and apathy. After that all I can say is that a year and a half of Homelessness, living in parks and reading to fill my time...then as if on some Aboriginal Walkabout coming face to face with the unreasonable and irresponsable jerk I didn't want to be anymore and deciding to make myself someone more like my Parents would be proud of pulled me together the rest of the way.

[greypilgrim]

the "forcing of values" upon ones children, joseph, could be worded another way...."raising our children". values and morals are learned, not forced. can you picture a world where all the children are let free of their parents influence? influence on their "values". children are not altogether pure and innocent. ones raised strictly sometimes wind up worse inside than those whose parents are not at home often enough to raise them. some kids need more discipline than others, and some are just bad seeds. none should be let go without some influence. even an orphanige tries to instill values.

[daisy]

On the topic of corporal punishment, all of your arguments supporting a good whack were reasonable and rational. I guess I just worry that punishment that is physical can lead elsewhere and I really worry when it is done with anger - then it can build and increase and then you get a dead Randal Dooley ( a child murdered by his parents because he kept 'acting up' ) or the girl locked in a closet by her mother because she also 'acted up'.

My daughter sometimes is demanding and whiny, but she says please and thankyou, never really has tantrums, is a good little friend, and is very loving and affectionate. I have never, except for one half-hearted bum whack two years ago, had to discipline her physically. I am not a wonder parent, I just find other ways.
I also guess I worry about my little hyperactive and learning disabled babies who get smacked around because they can't sit still, forget things, lose things, are messy.... they cannot control their behaviour, but most kids don't get diagnosed until they are in school so they would spend years getting whacked for things they can't change - would you whup a blind kid or a deaf kid because they can't see or hear? To me, it is the same thing....

ADHD is not on purpose.:(

[Grond]

Daisy, I think you're trying to compare apples and oranges. Any person who corporally punishes a child who is challenged physically or mentally should be charged with a crime. It is impossible for me to relate to that situation because I have been around neither the parents nor the kids in that situation. My experience comes from disciplining well adjusted, normal children.

It is the parents job to determine what type of punishment will be most effective for the unacceptable behavior. I can remember as a teenager throwing eggs at a car on Halloween. My punishment was of the corporal nature and that did the trick. Next year, the stunt was not repeated. Another time I got a speeding ticket for going 86mph in a 60mph zone. I was praying to be punished corporally but, no..... my driving priveliges were revoked by my parents for six weeks. (Guess who had to bum a ride for he and his date to prom with a friend?) That is one of the great challenges of being a parent.... knowing which behavior will be modified in the best way with the most appropriate punishment. I can tell you from experience that if your only punishment option is corporal, your kid will not modify the behavior. When I was older and confronted with the option for corporal or other punishment, I would always take corporal. I would be whipped or spanked and it would be over. I could go about with minimal interuption in my life. Grounding for two weeks was another thing entirely. So, there you have my views..... again.:)

[daisy]

Grond - As I stated in my previous post, many children with learning disabilities or adhd are not diagnosed until the ages of six or seven, though their behaviour can manifest many years earlier, so there is a large gap between when you begin to punish the behaviour and when you learn why the behaviour is there in the first place.
I personally have to say that for a global forum such as this, this guild of politics is a little too slanted towards American topics. I assume this is because you are an American.Dengen, you did give us two choices: the American topic and one for the rest of us. Sorry, but this is irritating.
I don't know all that much about the American governmental system, although I do know about the Bush-Gore election drama, the two party-system, and the bell-weather states and the primaries etc. but I actually cannot debate on this topic because it is too specified to one country...
So I guess I'm out until there is another general topic. See ya....

[Glory]

about child abuse all I can say it is that only work to make more abusers

[Gloer]

Three themes I have not commented:

1. Raising children.
I am old enought to have a family but still have not committed to that. Partly because I do not feel adult and experienced enough to be a credible authority to a child. A parent should have a good grip of what he wants out of his life to be able to guide a child to do the same. Many people think they know what's good for others but have no clue about what to do with their lives. The other thing is partly financial and partly a relationship issue. I want to make sure my children are eventually born in to a stable environment.

While reading The Jospeh's post about "forcing our values our children" I felt that there is something wrong in his view. I think The Jospeh sees raising children as a substantial issue of teaching certain values where as I think that raising children is more a method. It is more a question of HOW - not WHAT.

Further I have to add that the method represents the values. For example it might be hard to raise your child to become a liberal humane person if he was tought to be like that with a military dicipline. And still many who are liberal/conservative have become that way because they want to rebel against the values of the way they were raised.

It would be good to try to make children respect your values but let them have their own choice. And somehow encourage their self esteem and discipline so they can follow what they see as right regardless of what you think. Not following your values nor rebelling them.
(There is something similar in the type of choice and growing up Luke Skywalker needed to go through: Both rebelling his fathers choice and joining him were ultimately immature choices. Luke had to choose independently. Only then he could challenge Darth Vader's choice of the dark side.)

2. BUSH vs. GORE
The election ended up as a farce. Gore got the majority of the votes overall but Bush won the electorate. That Florida ballot mess up was a farce. It is important to have a clear outcome from an election and fast. Uncertanity and power vacuum were not very good things to have.
I thought they should have had a total recount of all the votes in Florida or none at all. Supreme court did the only practical solution when they blew the whistle to give USA certanity of the president elect and the next government. Why don't you have a direct vote for the president? Why to have electors? We had that before, but at those times elector were quite free to vote for anyone they chose - and there often was political dealing for the second round electoral votes since we have a multi-party system here and usually several candidates of which only two go to the second round.

(I first thought George Bush shouldn't have won because he is none too bright and Gore got more votes overall. Nevertheless Bush the II has been intelligent enough to acknowledge his incompetences. After a while I thought that actually it was better to have a working team of top people run USA than some high IQ Al Gore dictating every little detail of everything. I was hoping Powell, Cheney and the lot would keep mr.Bush checked, his papers in order and his actions informed enough. Now that Bush the II is popular beyond any understanding, mr. Powell is engaged far away in Asia, mr.Cheney dainted by the Enron-scandal and at the same time Rumsfeld and Ascroft are gathering speed under their give-us-dictatorial-power-to-revange -rhetorics... I am a bit worried.)

3. Coming down to the last topic. It is connected to the above administrative powers. Bush government is granted extensive means to intervane privacy of terrorist suspects. The problem is that terrorism is hard to define and therefore it is easy to abuse the new powers. I really would not like to be a muslim in USA. They just lost their right for privacy and no-one even noticed!