Filming New Scenes for TTT

[Gamil Zirak]

Lord Of The Rings: The Two Towers Getting New Scenes

Peter Jackson's second installment of Lord of the Rings, called The Two Towers, isn't quite ready for public consumption.

In fact, most of the cast members are heading back to New Zealand next week for more shooting ? including some new scenes.

I am told that principals Viggo Mortensen, Elijah Wood, Liv Tyler, and Oscar nominee Ian McKellen are among those who have been summoned to the Lord of the Rings sound stages.

There is some discrepancy about what will happen when they get there. One set of sources insists that new scenes will be shot to amp up the love story between Mortensen and Tyler, as well as to beef up combat scenes.

"Now that Star Wars has come back so big," my source tells me, "Jackson wants to make sure he can outdo it."

But insiders at New Line Cinema insist that the work being done consists of pick-up shots and other miscellaneous stuff, like close-ups, that would enhance the film. This is interesting, because Jackson was busy editing the second film last winter while Fellowship of the Rings was going into release. The two films, as well as the third installment, were filmed simultaneously. But, Jackson is said to have gotten ideas about ways to make the second film better after audiences saw the first one.

Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers is the sequel to Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Rings, which grossed $300 million and was nominated for several Oscars, including Best Picture. The individual budget for the second movie is said to be around $100 million, so Jackson is under some pressure to make sure that The Two Towers does at least as well as its predecessor, if not better.

This article is from Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54916,00.html).

[Talimon]

Nothing new there, other then rumours about the Aragorn/Arwen bits. I don't think those are very credible though, and I'll take New Lines word that it's just pick-up shooting. They wouldn't have any reason to lie about it, so I believe them in this case.

[ReadWryt]

What astounds me is that Peter Jackson hasn't succeeded in breaking his arm by now...I mean, aside from reaching all the way around that considerable bulk of his in the first place, here he is in New Zealand for over a month, in an era when most movies are shot in total in six weeks, shooting footage for a movie he was JUST patting himself on the back for claiming he was the first and only person to shoot three movies at once. Now unless he is currently shooting footage for the movie that is allready out, a silly and useless act at best, he is now shooting beyond the "At Once" range and is into "Shooting again on the next two" stage, meaning that all his blow hard self promotion is now his Hubris...One does not shoot for over a month to pick up scenes, fix continuity or add a couple of new scenes...This is now into the, "I lied about having shot all three at once and now I'm humbly admitting that I spoke out of turn to promote myself." arena...

5-07-02

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TTT: Towers Filming As We Speak? -UPDATE-
Xoanon @ 12:44 pm EST
From: Taniwha
Has anyone mentioned to you that they're shooting again? Little 'JAMB' arrows are springing up around Wellington (on the waterfront near Centreport, for example)…I've heard some fighting elves were needed recently at Helm's Deep, too...

Update

Some more information is slowly making its way to my ears.

Some of the filming in Wellington is taking place in Centreport, one of the major business ports in Wellington.
Filming is believed to have started yesterday (Monday), no news on what is being filmed, or who was there.

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1020789869

[Talimon]

That's not entirely accurate, because I know Elijah Wood and Sean Astin were in LA a couple weeks ago for the Star Wars priemeir. And I know besides that that EW was in LA as late as May 22'nd.

They are bringing in the actors at separate times, and doing the shooting in a different pace. Look at it this way: While the "actual" shooting was going on (for over 18 months), PJ had something like 4 or 5 camera crews working around the clock. At one point I remember there were 9, all on separate locations. Right now I'm willing to bet there is only one camera crew, and it's headed by PJ. While I have no idea why this pick-up shooting is being done, here's my prediction. Having had multiple crews doing different scenes at different locations at different times, PJ obviously couldn't have been everywhere at once. Trusting in his assitants, he attended other matters. With literally dozens (if not hundreds) of hours of footage shot, there is no way PJ could have double-checked it all on site.

Now that he is in the editing room going over it all, it can only be expected that everything didn't fit together perfectly. Some crew thought they were supposed to shoot this scene, while another thought they had to shoot the same one... Who knows what could have happened. Or maybe some of the crews forgot to get a close-up that PJ really wants. Maybe PJ wants a certain shot of Frodo, Sam, and Gollum that in the hectic nature of it all never got shot. He didn't have time to think about it all.

Here's what I'm wondering about personally, though: How come this type of pick-up shooting wasn't done for FotR? I can only assume they had TOO much footage for that and so they used what they had rather then adding even more.

I can imagine that PJ has had more time to think about everything now that he can sit down and actually look over it all. He can take a step back and see everything in perspective. It only makes sense that some patch-ups are needed.

As I've said before, I don't see these pick-up shots as being what you'd call "monumental". If 200 hours of footage has been shot over the span of all three movies, then this is merely adding an hour or two at most. In the movie it will probably end up as a minute all shots combined if not a few seconds here and there.

[Parrot]

Originally posted by ReadWryt
This is now into the, "I lied about having shot all three at once and now I'm humbly admitting that I spoke out of turn to promote myself." arena...

Yeah, that’s probably it. Or maybe it’s in the “I assumed that most people, at least those without some obsessive, personal agenda, would understand that when I said I shot ‘all three at once’, I meant ‘most of the major scenes’ and that there would obviously still be much work to do on films of this scale and scope” arena. Heck, he might even have rather hubristically assumed that fans would applaud (rather than impugn) him for undertaking additional time, effort and expense to offer a better film; the supercilious fat-boy.

[Asmodeus]

There should be no aragorn-arwen love scenes in TTT. It wasn't in the book, and it shouldn't be in the movie. Ive also heard that P.J is pushing Shelob back to ROTK!!!!!!!! is this what you guys have heard?

:confused: :mad:

[Gamil Zirak]

I'm pretty sure that Shelob will be in RoTK. It has something to do with there not being enough stuff in RoTK so he needed a filler. Although, if the scouring of the shire is left in the movie you would have enough for the film. That's just my humble opinion.

[Talimon]

Mine as well. SotS could be such an emotional scene in the movie, really. I mean, it would show so much. If nothing more the audience could relate with the fact that every victory is bittersweet. Move Saruman's death to TTT, that's fine. But keep SotS. That's so essential in my opinion.

As for Shelob, I can imagine that being cut for RotK and working. It'll be like, everything is going wrong (Gondor being assailed, Frodo "killed"), and then in one swift motion all the tides will turn. Theoden and Aragorn will arrive, and Sam will rescue Frodo. Then it will slow down as Frodo and Sam make thier way to Mt. Doom, and the Captains of the West march North, and then the whole tension will build up. If done correctly, the last 30 minutes of the movie could be an incredible climax of the whole trilogy.

As for the ending of TTT I'd personally go with having Frodo, Sam and Gollum entering Shelob's cave, and Aragorn accepting Anduril and going on the path's of the dead. Although the Aragorn part might be better of kept for RotK.

But I'm pretty bitter over the Scouring being cut. That's like cutting one of the really big themes in RotK. The Scouring really represents Frodo's wound as well. It ties in with the "the wound will never heal" theme.

This is one spot where I just cannot "trust PJ". But at least I'll hope it works out. I really don't want a "happy ending". If PJ does that then all hell will break loose. It's necessary that he keep the ending bittersweet.

[ReadWryt]

INFO FROM THE NYC Barnes & Noble event

The whole q&a was interesting. Peter imparted the information about the DVD and trailer which we've heard before. He did say that every theater still screening FOTR on March 22nd will be sent a new final reel containing the 3 1/2 minute preview of TTT which will feature some "amazing" things. He was quite adamant that this preview be seen only in the theater, as a present to the fans who have seen the movie multiple times. A 1 minute proper trailer will be aired in theaters and on television later in the year.

Also, he said that the deluxe DVD -- not "director's" cut -- will be out in the fall, and will contain the extra 30 minutes. Specifically the "gift giving" scene, more of the Legolas/Gimli relationship, some extra development of Aragorn's character, and additional character development in general.

His objection to the phrase "director's cut" seems based on a fear of implying that the theatrical release did not meet his approval. However, he went on to say that he impressed upon New Line the need to get the gift giving scene 'out there' so that the audience will understand the origin of the gifts which will be come important later on in the story. He specifically referred to the "rope" and the "phial."

He was very considerate in explaining that fans will encounter greater story alteration in TTT. He said that TTT in general is not long enough to provide material for a whole film. Consequently, he says that he, Fran, and Phillipa wrote additional scenes expanding upon the Frodo, Sam, Gollum triangle, and that Faramir will also have an increased role in the film. No further explanation than that, tho.

Shelob will not make an appearance until ROTK, but he says the Ents are "awesome" and that we will get to see them storm Isengard in TTT, rather than hear about it after the fact.

The scouring of the shire is out. PJ said it simply was not practical to retain it, as the story arc is rooted in Frodo's quest to destroy the ring. He said that while understanding the reasons -- personal and literal -- that the passage was important to Tolkien, that it adds an unnecessary coda to the story that he had always, even as a reader, found "awkward." He said that the scenes in Galadriel's mirror were his way of paying "homage" to the material, as showing the possible results if the quest should fail. He gave no indication of how he was going to get around this in the final movie, but we should probably start speculating now, as it seems certain.

He gave quite a few details, which we've read in various places, about the process of motion capturing Andy SerkisSerkis' movements which will become the "skelatal foundation" of the CG Gollum. He said that in many ways SerkisSerkis' performance is so good, it's a shame that Gollum has to be CG. All the same, he implied that we will be blown away. Additionally, he said that they are still finding gaps in the story as they edit, which will require "pick up" filming both this year and next, to complete scenes as yet unwritten, to flesh out both TTT and ROTK._ A final word on editing, Fran said that the script for TTT was written to intercut between the three main fields of action: Merry/Pippin/Ents, Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli, and Frodo/Sam/Gollum. Although they are not yet near completion of cutting the film, PJ indicated that this will probably be the finished result, rather than following Tolkien's strict division of the action.

Howard Shore, although not questioned closely, was quite open about the fear and challenges of taking on so huge of a project. One thing I forgot to mention above, Shore will be composing and recording an additional 30 minutes of music for the DVD, rather than recycling themes from the completed score of FOTR. PJ cited this as yet another example of how they are breaking all the rules of what is usually done in the movie machine.

You see, he said that TTT "in general is not long enough to provide material for a whole film.", not that he moved Shelob into RotK because IT was lacking. We don't have enough stuff to fill out TTT, so let's have cut Shelob OUT of the film and have written"additional scenes expanding upon the Frodo, Sam, Gollum triangle, and that Faramir will also have an increased role in the film.". More double speak for "we are changing the story some more...Also, you don't film three movies at once and then write more screenplay, and no amount of rationalization can successfully fly in the face of that fact. "Additionally, he said that they are still finding gaps in the story as they edit, which will require "pick up" filming both this year and next, to complete scenes as yet unwritten, to flesh out both TTT and ROTK". In the industry, they don't ever refer to shooting footage never included in the original screenplay or shooting schedule as "Pick Up", that term is reserved for shooting footage that, for whatever reason, was ALMOST correct in initial shooting but needed part of it reshot. According to Filmland.com, the term means...

Pick-up Shot:

Reshooting a portion of a scene, the rest of which was acceptably filmed in a previous take.

...digitalimpulse.com, a resource for aspiring actors and directors, describes it this way...

Pick Up: A shot that is needed to catch up with the production schedule, usually a shot that needs to be redone.

http://www.digitalimpulse.com/FilmTerms.htm

...and the Internet Movie Data Base, or imdb.com, states...


Additional Photography
AKA: Additional Photographer, Reshoots, Reshooting, Pickups
Focus group or studio reaction to some shots or scenes may be bad enough to convince the filmmakers to discard them. In some cases, actors are recalled and parts of the movie are refilmed. This is referred to as "Additional Photography", "Reshoots", or "Pickups". Contrast with additional camera, pickups.

...therefor one must decide for one's self if Jackson actually does not KNOW what the term means, or that he is purposely attempting to misslead people into thinking that he is merely repairing shots already filmed, but is actually shooting footage that never was intended at the start of the project...ie. New Footage.

[Gamil Zirak]

Thanks for the info ReadWryt. It was very interesting. It seems like PJ is very good at talking out of both sides of his mouth. I wonder if he has concidered taking up politics.

[Shion]

Originally posted by ReadWryt


You see, he said that TTT "in general is not long enough to provide material for a whole film.", not that he moved Shelob into RotK because IT was lacking. We don't have enough stuff to fill out TTT, so let's have cut Shelob OUT of the film and have written"additional scenes expanding upon the Frodo, Sam, Gollum triangle, and that Faramir will also have an increased role in the film.". More double speak for "we are changing the story some more...Also, you don't film three movies at once and then write more screenplay, and no amount of rationalization can successfully fly in the face of that fact. "Additionally, he said that they are still finding gaps in the story as they edit, which will require "pick up" filming both this year and next, to complete scenes as yet unwritten, to flesh out both TTT and ROTK". In the industry, they don't ever refer to shooting footage never included in the original screenplay or shooting schedule as "Pick Up", that term is reserved for shooting footage that, for whatever reason, was ALMOST correct in initial shooting but needed part of it reshot. According to Filmland.com, the term means...

Pick-up Shot:

Reshooting a portion of a scene, the rest of which was acceptably filmed in a previous take.

...digitalimpulse.com, a resource for aspiring actors and directors, describes it this way...

Pick Up: A shot that is needed to catch up with the production schedule, usually a shot that needs to be redone.

http://www.digitalimpulse.com/FilmTerms.htm

...and the Internet Movie Data Base, or imdb.com, states...


Additional Photography
AKA: Additional Photographer, Reshoots, Reshooting, Pickups
Focus group or studio reaction to some shots or scenes may be bad enough to convince the filmmakers to discard them. In some cases, actors are recalled and parts of the movie are refilmed. This is referred to as "Additional Photography", "Reshoots", or "Pickups". Contrast with additional camera, pickups.

...therefor one must decide for one's self if Jackson actually does not KNOW what the term means, or that he is purposely attempting to misslead people into thinking that he is merely repairing shots already filmed, but is actually shooting footage that never was intended at the start of the project...ie. New Footage.

Thanks for that fine dissection.

Can you tell me what the point of it all was, please?

(Not directing any aggression towards you or anybody else, I just don't understand what point you were trying to convey with that post. It seems to me that a few people here are picking on PJ for any and every reason they can find.)

Originally posted by Parrot
Yeah, that’s probably it. Or maybe it’s in the “I assumed that most people, at least those without some obsessive, personal agenda, would understand that when I said I shot ‘all three at once’, I meant ‘most of the major scenes’ and that there would obviously still be much work to do on films of this scale and scope” arena. Heck, he might even have rather hubristically assumed that fans would applaud (rather than impugn) him for undertaking additional time, effort and expense to offer a better film; the supercilious fat-boy.

Yep, because nobody wants him to go to extra effort to make it a better film, do they?

What does it matter if he "filmed most then and is filming the rest now," or "filmed all of it then and is filming extra now," or whatever? What matters is that he doesn't feel that it's complete at this point in time, and wants to complete it. People are always complaining about things like "plot point X was left out" or "he got Y all wrong!" What if one of your favourite parts from the book was something he wanted to add, or felt wasn't up to scratch and wanted to improve?

And to think I thought that that movie-goers cared more about movies than about directors' egoes... Did you ever take such an intense interest in a film (or film-maker) prior to the LOTR films?

As for Shelob, I can imagine that being cut for RotK and working.

Maybe, but this is one thing that concerns me. I applauded the film-makers for moving the death of Boromir to FOTR, to give it a whole movie's worth of emotional build-up. And yet they're going to do the exact opposite to the highly emotional Shelob/Frodo scene? Hmmm... makes me wonder if the "good judgement" of the placement of the Boromir scene was really more of a fluke...

Still, as always, I'll wait for the finished product before I start making judgements about it. (Unlike some people around here...)

How come this type of pick-up shooting wasn't done for FotR?

Your guess is as good as mine, but a couple of possibilities are:

(1) Although three films were being shot at once, FOTR would have been a priority, since that was the one they were most under pressure to complete.

(2) New Line are pleased with FOTR's success, and giving Jackson even more freedom/funding to work on TTT and ROTK. It certainly seems that they're going all out with the extended version of FOTR, and I doubt that they would if it had not been a success.

EDIT: (3) Perhaps they *did* do that kind of re-shooting for FOTR, but we simply didn't hear about because there was less buzz surrounding the films and/or it wasn't long enough after the original shoot to seem noteworthy.

-Bon

[Talimon]

You're speaking for me Shion. I don't see why people care that he is doing this "pick-up" shooting, or whatever else you want to call it. Like I've said before, I'd like to hope fans would want PJ to perfect the movies as much as he can. It's not like he's an olympic athlete working under strict rules. Who cares if he shoots new material? In fact, who cares if he goes out and reshoots the whole movie? I want a good movie. I am personally happy to know PJ has the kind of creative control to do this sort of thing. Most movies make due with what they have. PJ realizes these movies are big and wants them to be as perfect as he can make them. I applaud him for doing the unformal and calling in the actors to do what needs to be done. Otherwise we'll end up with a Bakshi reendition that is so filled with holes it can't keep it's own weight overboard.

As for Shelob, I understand where PJ is coming from (at least I think so). He wants Frodo's segment of TTT to deal strictly with Gollum and Faramir. That's kind of like a whole little saga that fits together. Shelob is almost like the next chapter, in a way. Also note that PJ can still keep the ending of TTT a cliffhanger. If we the audience know that Gollum is going to trick Frodo and Sam, and we see them walking into Shelob's Layer, that could work as well.

Boromir's move to FotR made complete sense. That chapter really belongs to FotR. I mean, it has to do with the breaking of the Fellowship and everything else. So that makes perfect sense. Shelob on the other hand is more controversial. We'll see what PJ does.

[Leto]

Peter Jackson is not making just another movie, however. The reason we are so hard on him here is because he is proposing to make the greatest work of fantasy of our century, or possibly ever, into a movie. For all of us who have read and loved Tolkien's works since we first knew how to read :)...this is rather important. To me, and to some other people here, it is more than just an old story. It is THE story, an epic adventure and mythology that inspires us the same way such tales inspired our ancestors, told around the campfire from time immemorial. We have been told this tale since we were children, repeated sections of it verbatim, captivated at the wonder and magic of it all. Now some guy comes along and tells the story the wrong way, thinking he can make it better? A generation of children will grow up thinking his film is the 'right' way, and ignoring Tolkien's genius because of it. It will become just another movie, lumped in with all those other good movies, nothing special. I guess this is the way of things...the old things are lost or replaced in favor of new. But if I ever have children, I will read to them the greatest tale written in our time, and hope the magic captivates their imagination, the same way mine was...the same way Bilbo's tales inspired Frodo and Sam to do great things...

[Parrot]

Firstly, very eloquent Leto, and I understand everything you said there, except what any of it had to do with him shooting more footage. You don't agree with Jackson's vision and that's your right. In fact, whether or not you like the movie is completely beside the point; either way, it doesn't make Jackson a bad person. My problem is with this fixation of people like ReadWryt who can never let the mere mention of Jackson's name go by without throwing out some pointless cheap-shot. It should be possible to express dislike for the guy's movie without getting so highly personal and trying to completely assault his character at every opportunity. It's chicken****, and it's boorish.
A generation of children will grow up thinking his film is the 'right' way, and ignoring Tolkien's genius because of it.
I'm sorry but I have never understood this line of reasoning. I think the children who would have been inclined to read a book like this will still be inclined and the success of the movie can only inspire more kids to open that first page and discover Tolkien for themselves. If he had made this completely theoretical "perfect" version, then there truly would be no reason to read the books.

[Shion]

Parrot,

It looks like your way of thinking is more in line with mine than I realised. :) Not that I took any personal shots at anyone anyway, but my earlier response to your post was written by me thinking that your "supercilious fat-boy" post was serious. I won't edit it, since my feelings haven't changed... but disregard any aggression that you may have detected. ;)

-Bon

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Leto
It is THE story, an epic adventure and mythology that inspires us the same way such tales inspired our ancestors, told around the campfire from time immemorial. We have been told this tale since we were children, repeated sections of it verbatim, captivated at the wonder and magic of it all. Now some guy comes along and tells the story the wrong way, thinking he can make it better? A generation of children will grow up thinking his film is the 'right' way, and ignoring Tolkien's genius because of it.

As the good seller at my fantasy bookstore said, those who truly respect the scope of Tolkiens work will appreciate the fact that no adaptation, no matter how official, can add or detract from the tale.

For me the War of the Ring is up there with the Trojan war in terms of scope and historical respectability. Let's compare them for a moment: when someone makes a movie about the Trojan War they are bound to get details wrong. In fact they will forsake details in the name of making the movie more epic and entertaining. But they will try and convey as much as they can about the Trojan war while at it. The Trojan War happened, whatever a movie does can't change it. Same with LotR. It happened, and a movie is only one story-tellers version of it. So don't go worrying that generations of children will be spoiled. They won't.

Furthermore, in the true spirit of storytelling it should be mentioned that every storyteller has his own spin on the story. Tolkien was influenced by traditional oral storytelling, the kind that's done "around the fire". And one of the key elements in that is that the story is altered by the storyteller. Peter Jackson is the storyteller. For me, Tolkien wasn't the story-teller of LotR. He wrote it, for sure, but it always seems as if what is written in LotR is 'it'. It's not someones version of the tale, it is the tale. So you can't compare Jackson's movie to the tale, but only to other peoples version of the tale. Tolkien's LotR is incomparable to anything, and so the most you can compare the movies to are other peoples versions.

Comparing PJ's version to Tolkien's written word is like comparing the movie Amadeus to Mozart. The movie is only one artist's interpretation of Mozart's life. A hundred more could be created, and Mozarts life would remain the same. So the movies are only one artists interpretation of LotR. LotR is a mythic tale that deserves to be compared to the Trojan War, or any other historical tale. A movie is never going to replace it.

[Parrot]

Shion, I never detected any aggression, maybe I'm gonna have to get more atuned to that.

[ReadWryt]

The point of my post was directly related to the title of this thread, and the point was that the subject of the title of this thread demonstrates a practice by the Director and Distributor of the movie which takes advantage of the short attention span of the audience, and the ease with which they are impressed by the things they are told about the making of these films...no matter how untrue they are.

As for "improving" on the movie...any other director who spends 5 years working on a screenplay and then turns around and writes MORE screenplay would be castigated under normal circumstances, but in this case we have a hefty investment from the studio. I would suggest that anyone interested in how these things usually go down in the business read anything they can about the latter days of Orson Welles' directoral career and the making of "Citizen Kane" as opposed to the making of "Vista", and the particulars surounding the making of "Waterworld". What I DON'T get is why, when I point out that Jackson did NOT make three movies at once, I am accused of NOT wanting him to make the movie better? What twisted logic brings one to presume THAT? Of course, if anything can make any production better I say "Have at it!", I just want to set the record straight after having read time and again that these movies were "historic" and "Groundbreaking" because they were all shot at once...

[Shion]

Originally posted by Parrot
Shion, I never detected any aggression, maybe I'm gonna have to get more atuned to that. Oh, I wasn't intending any. But people on messageboards will often interpret anything that challenges their views to be a personal shot at them. (I wasn't really challenging your views anyway, but I did write that response thinking that your previous post had been serious... which may or may not have been evident in my post.)
Originally posted by ReadWryt
...demonstrates a practice by the Director and Distributor of the movie which takes advantage of the short attention span of the audience, and the ease with which they are impressed by the things they are told about the making of these films...no matter how untrue they are.I can see what you're saying there. But I think you may be up-playing the treachery (if there is any) just a tad.

If PJ really is lying about filming the movies all at once, then we'd know about it by now. We wouldn't have heard statements from the cast like "I celebrated two birthdays in New Zealand" or them continually substantiating the length of the shoot. I don't really have any specific quotes, but I'm sure you realise that PJ is not the only one to claim that the films were shot all at once. (In fact, I've only ever seen/heard/read it coming from his mouth specifically a small number of times, and I don't remember it being said in an egotistical way... no more egotistical than any other film-maker, anyway.)

Also, we've seen TTT footage well before any of this re-shooting began. The trailer at the end of FOTR for starters, as well as that seen on the National Geographic making-of DVD (which I have not seen yet, but have heard contains some footage from the next two films). Also, weren't there snippets of non-FOTR footage in teasers/trailers dating back to months before the first film was released?

So based on what evidence I can see- there was at least "a substantial amount" of TTT/ROTK footage filmed at the same time as FOTR. As far as I'm concerned, that in itself is impressive... it may not be the same as "completely" filming all three in one hit, but it is still a ****-load of footage to be filming at one time.

While I can understand your comment "you don't film three movies at once and then write more screenplay, and no amount of rationalization can successfully fly in the face of that fact," I personally have no trouble believing that the film-makers at least thought that they were filming enough for all three films... or filmed such a large portion of them that they knew they could reasonably claim "we've filmed all three at once."

What I DON'T get is why, when I point out that Jackson did NOT make three movies at once, I am accused of NOT wanting him to make the movie better?Not sure if that was a response to my comments specifically, but if it was: I wasn't saying that you, specifically, didn't want him to make the film better (although if I may say, your seeming disapproval of the shooting of additional footage could easily be interpreted that way), but was really responding more to Parrot's comments (which I now realise were sarcastic, and trying to convey much the same point as me).

What twisted logic brings one to presume THAT? Of course, if anything can make any production better I say "Have at it!", I just want to set the record straight after having read time and again that these movies were "historic" and "Groundbreaking" because they were all shot at once...That's perfectly reasonable. I'd never be one to complain about somebody taking an interest in the production of a film. I just hope your sourness over this issue doesn't lead you to judge TTT and ROTK before you've even seen them.

-Bon

[Selkieschild64]

I don't understand this thread, much. This is the first time I've heard accusations like these. For goodness sake, the movies were shot all at once. The actors aren't all part of one big hoax. I read a wonderful account from one of the crew who was present at a scene in Cirith Ungol. I heard Billy Boyd tell stories (heck, I was twenty feet from him when he said it) about how he can't remember which scene was from which movie because they filmed them all out of order, and that it was like filming one big long movie to him. I remember seeing shots from TTT long before the reshoots began (shots of Helm's Deep, Frodo at Ithilien, Frodo and Sam in Mordor, for example). Sir Ian was talking Oscar noms for Sean and Elijah for ROTK as early as February of this year. So, yeah, the films were shot together.

This isn't some kind of big conspiracy so that Peter Jackson can toot his own horn. It's not unusual for cast and crew to go back and do reshoots and pickups before a movie is released. When outside scenes are shot, sometimes overdubs have to be done because the sound quality wasn't good the first time. You can actually see where this is done in some of the scenes in FOTR (Frodo's laughing at Bilbo's party, Gandalf talking to Saruman on top of Orthanc).

I dont' know if there were any extra scenes shot for FOTR. I do know that the Hobbiton set was burned at the end of filming in agreement with the farmer who owned the land it was built on. Also, remember, New Line was taking a BIG chance authorizing these films, and they weren't likely to spend another penny until they were sure they'd make money. Now they know they've got a winner, and their gamble paid off. So, if PJ wants to do more scenes, why not let him? The actors were in NZ this spring (at least the hobbits were) for somewhere around a month. Not nearly long enough to film another movie.


I don't think that PJ would lie about this even if he was the Evil Corrupt Bad Person some seem to think he is (an opinion witch isn't shared by the LOTR actors, btw), because it's too easy to disprove. With all the crew that was necessary for the shoot, there was bound to be someone who could be bought out by some tabloid. Yet not one word showed up. In fact, this thread is the first time I've heard this kind of talk, and I've read quite a bit on the subject (okay, I admit to being a bit obsessive about such things<g>).

The movies were made together. Pickups were done, as they are with every film. The extra scenes were shot because New Line has the money to do them now. Pretty cut and dried to me.

Kelly

[ReadWryt]

The movies were made together. Pickups were done, as they are with every film. The extra scenes were shot because New Line has the money to do them now.

...wait, so you ADMIT that they are shooting new footage that wasn't in the screeplay when they started and finished supposedly shooting three movies at once? That would be "New Footage" and not "pickups"...


"All the same, he implied that we will be blown away. Additionally, he said that they are still finding gaps in the story as they edit, which will require "pick up" filming both this year and next, to complete scenes as yet unwritten, to flesh out both TTT and ROTK." ...when P.J. was quoted as saying these things I rolled my eyes. It's the "To complete scenes yet unwritten" part. Why do appologists for Jackson ignore the simple fact that you cannot shoot three movies at once if the screenplay has not been FINISHED when you shut down the initial shooting?

[Talimon]

Let me ask you a question, RW. Is FotR, without Galadriels gift-giving scene, complete? Without Bombadil? It would sure seem so. The movie we saw in the theatres was "complete". It didn't open many gaps that it forgot to fill. As such it's complete. But that doesn't mean there aren't scenes that could/should have been included. I see the shooting on TTT in the very same light. In one article on the "pick-up" shooting, I heard a quote from Jackson saying that part of the reason for calling the actors back was to flesh out the movie based on criticism recieved from the first film. Personally I always disagreed with shooting all 3 films at once. It sounded like a way for New Line to cut down on it's costs and churn out a money-making blockbuster as cheaply as possible. The other side of it is that it means the director must have and unimaginable amount of vision and confidence, far more then I believe is good for any director to have. PJ had to make all 3 films hoping that it would be accepted with open arms. He didn't have much room for working on criticisms from film to film.

I'm happy that Jackson has the oppritunity to go back and make the changes he wishes to. The impression I get is that these aren't scenes that were intended from the beginning, but rather scenes that are being developed based on feedback from the first film. Who knows, maybe PJ is even cutting out Arwen from Helm's Deep as we speak. Maybe he is cutting out the elves. I'm not sure where or how PJ get's his feedback, but I'm happy to know he got one piece of feedback loud and clear: add more charachter development.

[ReadWryt]

Let me ask you a question, RW. Is FotR, without Galadriels gift-giving scene, complete? Without Bombadil? It would sure seem so. The movie we saw in the theatres was "complete". It didn't open many gaps that it forgot to fill. As such it's complete. But that doesn't mean there aren't scenes that could/should have been included. I see the shooting on TTT in the very same light. In one article on the "pick-up" shooting, I heard a quote from Jackson saying that part of the reason for calling the actors back was to flesh out the movie based on criticism recieved from the first film.

This isn't the matter at hand, the matter at hand is why a director would stretch his arm out so badly reaching around his wide form to pat himself on the back for shooting all three movies at once and then turn around and admit that he is still going to be shooting footage of scenes YET TO BE WRITTEN? How complete any of the films are when they get released isn't an issue, that's P.J.'s problem for releasing unfinished footage he had several years to script, shoot, edit and release. But when the SCRIPT isn't even done, how can you make the claim that you are doing ALL of ANYTHING at once, and then go back and do more of the same on the same project and not have at some point wondered how you would appologise for having spoken out of turn about your supposed unique accomplishment?

Everyone knew that he was going to have to fix some continuity problems on the footage shot already for the next two, and that indeed is what "Pickup" scenes are for...fixing what is already there, NOT shooting footage for stuff you and your wife had not invented yet for the script and suddenly in an after thought, upon viewing the footage already shot, decided needed to be ADDED to the footage already in the can. THAT is CONTINUING the filming of the movie...no way around it.

If you are changing footage because of reaction from the audience this isn't even actually anything remotely close to having made all three at once, this is making it up as you go along to please the audience that you have chosen to listen to...we will have to see if this means that Saruman makes it to the last film alive...hehehe

[Ithrynluin]

wooow,all these enormously long posts are making me dizzy:confused: :o
Why all the negativity directed at PJ? I think he's OK.:rolleyes:

[Selkieschild64]

...wait, so you ADMIT that they are shooting new footage that wasn't in the screeplay when they started and finished supposedly shooting three movies at once? That would be "New Footage" and not "pickups"...

I absolutely admit that new footage was shot. New footage does not mean an entire movie. They're adding scenes that they didn't know if they would have the money for originally. If these scenes were never shot, the film would be released without them. So yeah, the Two Towers was finished along with the other two films in the original shoot. The additions are improvements, not an entire movie. Whether these new scenes were in the original screenplay I don't know. I don't think it makes much difference.

Kelly

[ReadWryt]

...well then how DOES one shoot a movie...I mean be able to say that you HAVE shot the movie...when the screenplay isn't even done yet?

[Selkieschild64]

...well then how DOES one shoot a movie...I mean be able to say that you HAVE shot the movie...when the screenplay isn't even done yet?

Because the movie would have been released without the new scenes if New Line hadn't approved the extra shoots, or if the film hadn't made enough money to add them. I think it's like building a house, living in it for a year, and then saying..."hmm, it's nice the way it is, but here's where I can add on to improve it." It doesn't take away from the fact that the original structure was a finished unit in itself.

Kelly

[Gamil Zirak]

Changing a room layout or painting a wall is like editing the movie. Adding on an extra room to a house is a pretty big deal. You can't just add it to the outside wall and then you're set.

That was my analogy.

[Selkieschild64]

Changing a room layout or painting a wall is like editing the movie. Adding on an extra room to a house is a pretty big deal. You can't just add it to the outside wall and then you're set.

Very true, but adding on doesn't take from the fact that the house as originally built was complete.


Hmm, methinks this is turning into the carpentry thread. :D Maybe PJ and let's see...George Lucas could be on the Director's version of "Trading Spaces" (that's "Changing Rooms" for you British folk).

Hmm..which crew should I join...the one with Ewan or the one with Elijah?...Decisions, decisions.

Kelly

[ReadWryt]

All I know is that if Danny Elfman wrote three albums worth of music and after the first was released he wrote MORE music to make the next two into two record sets he would have been working on it the whole time and it would not have been recorded all at once.

This isn't a question of whether the majority of footage was shot already, it's a question of how one in their infinite hubris can go forth to the media and speak so highly of the rare and unique accomplishment..."Filming three films at once has never been done before, in addition to which the project features thrilling special effects, so it was essential to plan everything down to the last detail. We owe Prof Tolkien and his fans our best efforts to make these films with the integrity they deserve."

And this balloney about "filming scenes because New Line can afford them" is some of the biggest whooie I've ever heard in all my days. What, $300 million isn't enough??? What happened to all the talk about how smart it was to shoot in New Zealand because the exchange rate is almost two to one..? Wouldn't that make it more like $500-$600 Million??

I'm really getting amazed and dissapointed to witness the lengths to which the supporters of Jackson will go to appologise and cover up his short commings. He's just this movie director...a pretty darned good one at that, he's as falible as any other movie director. When I take shots at the guy it's almost never about his directing, something I have a good respect for, but for his Screenplay Writing, self promotion, egotisitical remarks and all the other stuff outside the purview of Direction.

The guy is making it up as he goes along. He really didn't do anything amazing by filming a lot of the movie at once, and I doubt he shot more film in 18 months then was shot for "From the Earth to the Moon", "Roots" or any of the other multi-part stories that preceeded his work on this and in the end it will be apparent that he's been making up huge chunks of the project as he went along, which is not a bad thing!

I have nothing against a Director who is like that, Spielberg is like that himself...it's good to be light on your feet and open to ideas no matter what part of the process the film is in at the time, but to brag that you have done something nobody has done and then continue doing what you had praised yourself for having FINISHED...and if you are not finished then what the heck are you doing opening your mouth in the first place...I dunno, I just think Jackson opened his mouth about his accomplishments before there really WERE any...

[Selkieschild64]

but to brag that you have done something nobody has done and then continue doing what you had praised yourself for having FINISHED...and if you are not finished then what the heck are you doing opening your mouth in the first place...I dunno, I just think Jackson opened his mouth about his accomplishments before there really WERE any...

Making improvements to a finished product does not negate the fact that the product was indeed finished.

But, seeing as how no one on this board (I don't think) was there, I guess we're all stuck with our opinions, no matter what side of the fence they come down on.

Kelly

[ReadWryt]

...how can filming be "done" on a movie for which the director/screenwriter has said the screenplay was incomplete for?

[Talimon]

Thus we return to the deffinition of "incomplete". I say the film without the extra shooting could have been released, and you say it couldn't have. But I point to the fact that FotR was missing many scenes and still came off as being finished.

[ReadWryt]

..wait, I've heard nothing about them shooting more scenes for FotR. Did I miss something here? You mean that there is NEW footage that isn't going to be on the DVD?? I haven't heard anything about the screenplay for FotR not being finished...I must have been in a coma that week when the news came out...

[Talimon]

You miss my point. What I'm saying is that since there is so much source material to work with, the movies can end up using much less then what is actually there and still seem complete. In terms of FotR, while I have no clue as to whether new scenes were later written, my point is that without a good deal of scenes the movie was still complete. I make the same analogy with TTT. As it was shot it was most likely 'complete', but with the extra money and feedback granted by FotR it is possible to go back in and flesh out certain aspects of the movie.

[ReadWryt]

Well I just spent nearly a full hour searching everywhere I could and could not find any news about there having been any further expansion of the shooting budget for the movies...Everything I've found still quotes the same $109,000,000/film budget. New Line doesn't say anything about it, nor is there anything in the archives at the "News" sites like TheOneRing.net or TolkienOnline. None the less, suddenly deciding to create more movie is just that. I fail to see how more money equals not making more movie that was not written in the beginning and hence could not be filmed. After all, we ARE talking about a guy who said that they bumped Shelob to the third movie and that there wasn't enough story to make a whole movie in the second film so that more screenplay had to be written, so who knows WHAT is going on? If there is one thing that is almost certain it's that there is more story in each of the three books then could be told in three hours per film, so to complain that there isn't enough story in any of the books after removing story from any one of them is sort of confusing to begin with...

...so could someone explain to me in terms that a bonehead like myself can understand why it would be that getting more budget, as has been alleged here, and deciding to use it to write, produce, direct, shoot and cut in scenes that were never conceived of when shooting "wrapped" is something other then continuing to film the movie?

[Talimon]

Your absolutely correct that they're shooting more movie. No one is disputing that. All I'm saying is that the motives for doing it are different then what you allege. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I percieve you are claiming that the reason for shooting extra scenes is because the original movie/script was never completed. What I'm saying is that it was complete but due to feedback from the audience they are going back to flesh out certain aspects of the movie.

I'm not argueing with the fact that the movie is being altered/added-on/changed, but rather the reasons for doing so.