The Last Battle

[Mighty Sam]

I want to know everyone's thoughts on this subject. ok now in nearly every Tolkien book somewhere he mentions "the last battle" ok, i was wondering if that was something he intended to write? or just left open?

Also would u like to see Christopher Tolkien actually write that or what??

EVERYONE MUST RESPOND TO THIS!!!

this subject has been bothering me forever.

[The Tall Hobbit]

Actually, Tolkien wrote several versions of the Last Battle.

From HOME vol. 1 - The Book of Lost Tales, Part I:

For 'tis said that ere the Great End come Melko shall in some wise contrive a quarrel between Moon and Sun, and Ilinsor shall seek to follow Urwendi through the Gates, and when they are gone the Gates of both East and West will be destroyed, and Urwendi and Ilinsor shall be lost. So shall it be that Fionwe Urion, son of Manwe, of love for Urwendi shall in the end be Melko's bane, and shall destroy the world to destroy his foe, and so shall all things then be rolled away.


From HOME vol. 2 - The Book of Lost Tales, Part II:

Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.


From HOME vol. 4 - The Shaping of Middle Earth:

When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged.

In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air, and Maidros shall break them and Belaurin with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and the great light shall come forth again, and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake.


Also from HOME vol. 4 - The Shaping of Middle Earth:

Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall the Silmarils' be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out all over the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods.


From HOME vol. 5 - The Lost Road:

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

[BelDain]

TTH, could you be a little more thorough when you give an answer. These quotes you provide don't really clear anything up at all. Thanks.:D

[Ithrynluin]

Looks like The End will be an event of great glory and joy.I find this part especially beautiful:
"...and the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake."
Just wonderful,such a happy ending.Yay!

[Mighty Sam]

More thoughts on this subject. i would like do actually write my own version of the last battle and i need more info. thank you much.

[Arathin]

but men were never admitted into the glory or joy. Only Turin of all men was named, and he with a place with the Gods, a blest son of Valar. I believe this means that all men, or most, will cease to exist from this point on.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Arathin
but men were never admitted into the glory or joy. Only Turin of all men was named, and he with a place with the Gods, a blest son of Valar. I believe this means that all men, or most, will cease to exist from this point on. You must have overlooked the quote posted by The Tall Hobbit above,from HoMe Volume IV, The Shaping of Middle-earth
When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged.

In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air, and Maidros shall break them and Belaurin with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and the great light shall come forth again, and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake.This is one of the versions and gives Man a place with the Gods (Valar/Maiar) and the Elves. :)

[Arathin]

well that is one against how many?

[Melian Le Fay]

I don't think Tolkien ever ment for men such a horrible destiny - seizing to exist! In one of his versions (the most hopful) he said that all will live again - gods, elves and men. In other versiions he says that the fate of men is still UNKNOWN...but that doesn't have to be an ugly destiny...just a misterious one!

[Melian Le Fay]

Does anyone of you remember that part from The Silmarillion, I think it concernes the Dwarves, when it is said that Aule (the creator of Dwarves, I hope I got the name right) pleeded for the place for Dwarves among the Children of Iluvatar, when the world comes to its end ,and all the children should sing with the Ainur...Or something like that...I've read the book only once so far....
Well, my point is: if he said that all the children of Iluvatar will be there, when the world is ended, does that include all the mortals?
If anyone can help me with these quotes, please, do!

[Grond]

Millena, is this what you are looking for???from The Silmarillion, The Quenta Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna
...Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.

[Melian Le Fay]

Hey, thanks a lot , Grond!!! That was concerning my questions on the Dwarves...
But the fate of Men...now, that surely bothers me!!! I'll try to dig out that part from the Sil, about the end of the world, and the Last Song...
Hmmz...another question: The Last Battle and The end of the World (from Ainulindale)....are those two the same..........?

[Melian Le Fay]

I've just realized I'm a Guildsman!!!!! And the last time I saw, I was a .... hmmzz... an aprentice!!! Does anyone know what that means? And if I;m a guildsman, which guild I belong to, then?!!!
Please, please, please...explain that to me!!!:D

[Grond]

Originally posted by Millena
I've just realized I'm a Guildsman!!!!! And the last time I saw, I was a .... hmmzz... an aprentice!!! Does anyone know what that means? And if I;m a guildsman, which guild I belong to, then?!!!
Please, please, please...explain that to me!!!:D Guildsman is just a rank. You begin as an apprentice and then after 30 posts, are promoted to a guildsman.

As far as Guilds, you may join them in the Guilds forum and most don't have any minimum post requirement. A good guild for you would be the Guild of Periath which is for 20 - 29 year olds. I belong to the Ost-in-Edhil which is for the over-30 crowd. We are getting ready to have our first inner-guild debate. Check it out in either of the Guild forums. :)

[Melian Le Fay]

Thanks a lot Grond!!!
I really appreciate it!!!:D

[Arathin]

Why have guilds for age groups? That is stupid. It separates people out by their age. I like this forum so much because it didn't do that. When people listen to me, they usually regard me as some annoying, know-it-all, seventeen year old tolkien fanatic, who reads too much. Here no one thinks that. What I say and I am taken into full account as if anyone had said it. I like not being frowned upon and told, "you don't know what you're talking about deary" when I know more or as much as the person I am talking to. That is my biggest petpeave.

[The Tall Hobbit]

From the Silmarillion, Chapter 1:


It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

[Grond]

Been there, done that!! We've been through this before with other members of the forum. There are guilds for writers, poets, etc. etc. etc. There is also a guild for older Tolkien enthusiasts. There is a guild for 20 something Tolkien enthusiasts and you can make your own guild for teenagers if you like.

The guild system operates outside the normal confines of the forum in general. That is the latitude the Webmaster has given us here and we appreciate him for it. While the age group guild may appear devisive, it isn't really. Our guild topics are basically open for everyone. We may on occassioin have a closed topic but that is rarely.

Sorry you don't approve.... but our guild is our guild.

[Melian Le Fay]

I don't know to whom you ment to post that quote, but that was exactly what I was looking for!!!
That part, when the writer says that the Valar told the Elves in valinor that Men shall join them in the second music...I believe that "The Second Music of the Ainur" means the end of the world....Am I right?
And when Tolkien wrote "Men", did he mean all Men, who ever lived, or just the ones who were alive at the end of the world...? :confused:
I mean to say, if Tolkien ment "all Men", then he indirectly revealed his idea of the fate of men!
If anyone's interested in discussing this idea, please, come forward, don't be shy! ;)

[Arathin]

Millena has just brought out some very good points.

Grond I don't do guilds anyway. I was just commenting that I didn't like the idea of age guilds.

[Maedhros]

Why have guilds for age groups?
Hmmmmmm.
Personally, i think that these would be better qualities:
People who can THINK. Age is not important, but a good mind and a semblance of wit are. ;)

[Arathin]

Way to go Maedhros!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Melian Le Fay]

I drink to that!:cool:

[Grond]

:p :p :p :p :p :p

[LoreMaster]

I have only read The Hobbit and LOTR, so please excuse my ignorance if I end up asking some questions which to you who have read the others may sound obvious. So far I have found that elves, men, and even dwarves have a hopeful future in the end of time. But what about hobbits? Why don't they have a future as well? It doesn't seem just that the race that dealt the final blow to Sauron should not have a future like that of the other races. Or are hobbits included among men in the prophecies? I'm also wishing the Ents had a hopeful future.

[Grond]

Originally posted by LoreMaster
I have only read The Hobbit and LOTR, so please excuse my ignorance if I end up asking some questions which to you who have read the others may sound obvious. So far I have found that elves, men, and even dwarves have a hopeful future in the end of time. But what about hobbits? Why don't they have a future as well? It doesn't seem just that the race that dealt the final blow to Sauron should not have a future like that of the other races. Or are hobbits included among men in the prophecies? I'm also wishing the Ents had a hopeful future. Tolkien states that Hobbits are an offshoot of Man and share Man's fate which lies outside the confines of Arda and Aman. Where... only Manwe and Mandos know.

LoreMaster... you need to read The Silmarillion. Much of what you seek will be found there. It provides the History of the Eldar (Elves) and the Edain (Man). Heck, it also provides the history of the world of Middle-earth as well. :)

[Melian Le Fay]

...and is probably the best Tolkien's work!

[LoreMaster]

So, if men will grow young again and there dead will arise, then the hobbits will do the same.

[Arathin]

Go Hobbits!!!

I came to the conclusion that I am Elven. I was at work and suddenly, out of the blue, asked a customer something in Elven. I wrote it down and it was basically, "Hi, how are you today?" Which is what I was trying to ask the person. They just laughed at me, thinking I was talking gibberous.

[Melian Le Fay]

Cool, you're an Elf!!!!:D
But that's nothing!!!
I have a friend called Varda, my best friend's name is Maia, and another friend's name is Vanya!!!!!!!!!!
I really know to choose company, huh?!!!

[Arathin]

You certainly do. My best friends are Legolas, Smeagol, and the One Ring. Troubled company, eh? They all call me Aragorn too. Aragorn or just King, hehe. In fact, all three of them are on the forum here.

[Melian Le Fay]

Cool! Can I meet them?
But, still, my friends are more powerfull than yours...:p

[Arathin]

You know all of them already.

Legolas = Eogthea

Smeagol = I.am.Smeagol

The One Ring/Frodo = Goldberry aka Goldie

[Melian Le Fay]

huh?
I don't get it.........
I'm stupid......
Wait! I can't be stupid!
I'm not stupid!!!
I'm not!!!!!
Where was I? Oh, yes, I'm not sure what you mean...
:confused:

[Arathin]

You said you wanted to meet my friends Legolas, Smeagol, and the One Ring. Well I told you that they are on the forum, and you prolly know them.

Legolas is Eogthea on the forum

Smeagol is I.am.Smeagol on the forum

the One Ring is Goldberry344 on the forum

and I, Aragorn aka King, am Arathin on here.

get it?

[Melian Le Fay]

Yeeees...I get it now....
I was puzzled the first time, 'cause I'd never met any of those guys on the forum so far.....


What was the original idea of this thread...?:confused:

[Arathin]

Well they are very entertaining.

The original idea was a discussion about the Last Battle, or basically, the end of the Arda as Tolkien wrote it.

[LoreMaster]

I hope to read the Silmarillion eventually, but since I currently do not have time, I'll have some questions to ask. Would Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam ever return to Middle-Earth after the Last Battle? Would any elves return? Would Numenor rise up from the sea?

I think it would be really cool if the resurrected hobbits lived in the Shire again, since I think the Age of the Domination of Men eliminated them altogether, unless hobbits are included in the reference to men here. I guess I'm wondering about all this because the end of LOTR wasn't all that satisfying, since the triumph of good was not complete. I find myself thinking back to certain sad things, such as the fate of the Ents, and how elves have to leave Middle-Earth during the Fourth Age.

I'm sure many questions will be answered if I can find time to finish The Chronicles of Narnia and move on to read the Silmarillion.

[Grond]

Originally posted by LoreMaster
...I guess I'm wondering about all this because the end of LOTR wasn't all that satisfying, since the triumph of good was not complete. I find myself thinking back to certain sad things, such as the fate of the Ents, and how elves have to leave Middle-Earth during the Fourth Age.A few things.

1) Until the final judgement (in Middle-earth or whatever your particular religion) evil will never be defeated. from The Return of the King, The Last Debate
For into the midst of all these policies comes the Ring of Power, the foundation of Barad-dur, and the hope of Sauron. 'Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed. 'Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.This quote makes it clear that Sauron is but the emissary of the ultimate evil of Tolkien's world who is Melkor, the True Dark Lord. Until he is destroyed, evil cannot be eliminated from the world.

2) The Last Battle - This is the story of the ultimate confrontation between Melkor and the Powers of Good. The prophesy states that Melkor will be faced by Tulkas (representing the Ainur), Feanor (representing Elves) and Turin (representing Man). It is Turin's sword Gurthang that is destined to deliver Melkor's death blow.

3) The Elves left Middle-earth because the Power of the Elven-rings had faded and everything that was dear to them would no longer be preserved by the power of the Elven-rings. It was not Man that forced their departure, rather Sauron. You see, the Elves were in a no-win situation. If Sauron won the War of the Rings, the Elves would have had to flee Middle-earth back to Aman. If Sauron lost the War of the Rings, the Elves would have to abandon Middle-earth because their Power was gone.

PS If you'll read Maedhros' first post in this thread, he quotes every reference to the Last Battle. It really gives no indication of what will happen to the different Races. It simply states that Good will prevail.

[Arathin]

I need a copy of the Sim. my mom threw hers away years ago as it was in twenty pieces. (Actually my father threw it away and my mom almost killed him, then ten years later kicked him out. funny isn't it?) My mom was a huge tolkienite a while back. not as much now, but she still likes it a ton, and watches the movie with me all the time.

[Melian Le Fay]

People who treat Tolkien like that, deserve to be kicked out...I tried to kick out my dad, but no chance..it's his house!:D Just kidding, of course, I don't mean anything bad...

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by LoreMaster
I find myself thinking back to certain sad things, such as the fate of the Ents, and how elves have to leave Middle-Earth during the Fourth Age.

I'm sure many questions will be answered if I can find time to finish The Chronicles of Narnia and move on to read the Silmarillion.

Forget Narnia, read the Sil!!!! Trust me, I've read them both, and the Sil is damn better than that kids' book!!!!!
And concerning the sad things at the end of LOTR...I cried! I cried because the Elves are leaving, I cried because of the Ents, I cried because of Arwen's end............and i never cry when I read a book!
I think I'm too bonded with Tolkien's world.........:( So saaaaaaaaaaad!

[Arathin]

Everyone on this forum is bonded to the Tolkien World. That is why we're all here. It is part of us. That is why I am getting an Elvish Rune tattoo on my arm and speak Elvish to strangers. Yeah, sure, people look at me funny, but that isn't the point. The point is that Tolkien wrote a work that is so involving and so intising that we live in that world every day of our lives. I was walking through a forest today (walking a friend's dog for her) and started talking to the trees in Elvish. Twas amusing as anything. The dog was even looking at me funny when I hugged an old tree that looked to me like Fangorn himself.

[Melian Le Fay]

Mmmmm...I started squeking like a damn Teletubby when I read your post, Arathin... I can imagine how you feel! Nothing has ever overwhelmed me like Tolkien's world....It's one of the reasons I started learning swordfighting and archery... And I want to make myself some elven chlothes, except I cant find any models...Weird, huh?
But I LOVE it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[LoreMaster]

I decided I'd inform you all that now I'm not planning on finishing the Chronicles of Narnia before I start the Silmarillion.

[Melian Le Fay]

That's the spirit!;) :D

[Beleg]

Feanor (representing Elves)
But wasn't it Fionwe? Son/Herald of Manwe?

[Ithrynluin]

Beleg, Fëanor is also going to be there, as a main representitive of the Elves I guess. Eonwe is a Maia - which I am sure you are aware of.:)

[Inderjit S]

Feanor will be there, but not at the Last battle, he will be relased from Mandos to give Yavanna the jewels.

Here, we still have the conception of Valarin procreation, latter abandoned and Fionwe and Eonwe are one and the same.

The canonical value of The second Prophecy is dubious. Remeber, Turin's 'coming back' to to speak was a mannish 'myth' so to speak, even though Tolkien had entertained the idea of Turin's return from BoLT and hints at it in the 'Latter Quenta' (HoME 10) iin which he comments that Menelvagor ('Swordsman of the sky', seen by Frodo, Sam and Pippin when they met Gildor in Woody End in 'Three is Company')was a sign of Turin's coming, though I seem to have misplaced my copy of Morgoths Ring and am unable to find a quote.

[Beleg]

Its [/B]Menelmakar, In Sindarian Menelvagor.

Here's the Quote, from the Grey Anals.

Now Varda took the light that issued from Telperion and was stored in Valinor and she made stars newer and brighter.And many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda. The greatest of these was Menelmakar, the Swordsman of the Sky. This, it is said, was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of the days.

It's interesting to read the commentry provided by Christopher Tolkien in this regard in Grey Annals.

On the two star-makings see There is here the remarkable statement that Menelmakar (Orion) was 'a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.' This is a reference to the Second Prophecy of Mandos (in the Quenta,IV, 165):
Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor.
In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right
shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, coming from the halls of Mandos;
and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
The Quenya name Menelmacar is mentioned in Appendix E (I) to The Lord of the Rings; in The Fellowship of the Ring (p. 91) appears the Sindarin form: the Swordsman of the Sky, Menel-vagor with his shining belt'.

The doom of Turin in never made clear, with the words coming from the halls of Mandos often changed.

I have heard that Second Prophecy was abondaned. Where is the reference to abandonment found?

[Inderjit S]

There is never (Or I belive) any abanonment of the S.P but one can assume that all evidence is weighed against the events mentioned actually taking place. As I have mentioned the Second Prophecy is not a authentic Noldorin text, in fact the 'Athrabeth' claims that there wasn't even a prophecy that Namo made concerning Arda's end:


and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos. Valaquenta; Published Silmarillion

One can therefore assume that it was a Numenorean courruption of a Eldarin text, or idea, liek the ideas of the Sun and Moon coming from the Two Trees, but it seems this has little basis. I believe Andreth comments on him coming back to slay Ancalagon, though this was later given to Earendil, and at one point Turin came back in the Dagorath to slay Anacalagon. It's VERY confusing.

It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.

Turin was also a man, so wouldn't this be impossible and aganst his 'fate' to stay in Mandos? And doesn't he become a 'Child of a God' at the end? Also note, again the term 'Child of a God' represents Numenorean mythos since the Valar shouldn't rightly be called 'gods' but were dubbed so by some men, It's kind of like Gimli calling Galadriel 'Queen of Lothlorien'.

Addition: It seems that Turin's slaying of Morgoth was one of Andreth's prophecies, carried down perhaps:

The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Túrin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.

Its [/B]Menelmakar, In Sindarian Menelvagor.

So Menelmakar is Sindarin and Menelvagor Quenya?

It also seems from the latter Quenta of HoME ten that the association of Menelmakar/vagor as a herald of Turin was dropped.

That Menelmakar forebodes the Last Battle is said in both sources, but LQ does not name it as a sign of Túrin Turambar.

[Beleg]

So Menelmakar is Sindarin and Menelvagor Quenya?

No, perhaps I wrote it wrong. The Quenya name Menelmacar is mentioned in Appendix E (I) to The Lord of the Rings; in The Fellowship of the Ring (p. 91) appears the Sindarin form: the Swordsman of the Sky, Menel-vagor with his shining belt'

This shows that Menelmacar is Quenya, while Menelvagor is Sindarin.
Although I am interested in the difference between "MenelmaKar" and "MenelmaCar". Why is that so?

And doesn't he become a 'Child of a God' at the end?
He is called, Son of Valar in the final version, but Quenta also calls Turin "As one of the Gods".
Can you provide a Quote where Turin is called "Child of God"?

Addition: It seems that Turin's slaying of Morgoth was one of Andreth's prophecies, carried down perhaps:

The Quote that you provided shows that Andreth's prophecy was that Turin shall slay Ancalageon, not Morgoth himself. But how will he slay Ancalageon when Ancalageon is allready dead, I don't know.
As far as I can think, the concept of Earendil, slaying Ancalageon is pretty old and Athrabeth was written considerbly late; in 1950's.

[Inderjit S]

The Quote that you provided shows that Andreth's prophecy was that Turin shall slay Ancalageon, not Morgoth himself. But how will he slay Ancalageon when Ancalageon is allready dead, I don't know.

Yes. But in this context Turin slew Ancalagon in the Dagorath.

The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.

Footnote 17; Problem of Ros

Can you provide a Quote where Turin is called "Child of God"?

I never said Child of god in the context of Eru but in the context of child of one of the Valar. I got it from:

and no man it names save Turin only and to him it gives a place amongst the sons of the Valar S.P; HoME 5

Evidently this is NOT canonical and I was rather rash in my term 'sons of god'.

The Quote that you provided shows that Andreth's prophecy was that Turin shall slay Ancalageon, not Morgoth himself. But how will he slay Ancalageon when Ancalageon is allready dead, I don't know.

Yes but is it not possible that the Numenorenas got Morgoth/Ancalgon confused, in some way or mis-interpreted her words? It has happened. Just look at the mess they made with the Two Trees. Maybe the felt bitter agaisnt Morgoth and felt that his slaying at the hands of a man would reddem them. Just ridiculous speculation from me.

"MenelmaKar" and "MenelmaCar". Why is that so?

C always has the value of a Elven K....celeb 'silver should be prounced keleb


Sometimes her changed round the C/K maybe because of prounciation. E.G: In M.T he says he will call OrCs OrKs. He changes TulCas to TulKas.

Here is what I can find on the word Makar:

The best example is *maikâ, Q. maika "blade of a cutting tool or weapon, especially sword-blade" in relation to *MAK "cut, hew with a sharp edge", Q. make "hews with a sword", makil "sword", makar "swordsman". No other origin for maika can be found, and it cannot be a very early word made from lost material. Quendi and Eldar;Appendix D

Makar was also a name of a Ainur in BoLT.

It also appears in the etymoligies in *pretty-much* the same context as Q&E/d. (HoME 5)

P.S It is 'Ancalagon'=rushing jaws, Sindarian

Anak-cf. Nak bite Q anca jaw N anc Ancalagon

and

Narak- tear rend, naraka rushing, rapid, violent

Both terms taken from HoME 5; Etymologies.

[Turin]

What is BoLT?

[Elendil3119]

Originally posted by Turin
What is BoLT?
BoLT is an abbreviation for 'Book of Lost Tales' which is seperated into two parts. These two parts are the first two volumes of HoMe, and are Tolkien's earliest writings (he wrote them in 1916-1917) on what later became the Silmarillion.

[Turin]

Ok thanks:)

[Helcaraxë]

With all the different versions of everything, I always rely on the Sil for the final word since it was the most recently updated and the most accurate representation of Tolkien's final decisions. I don't have an exact quote, but it says that after Melkor is defeated, and the last battle won by the Valar, there will be a new music of the Ainur, greater than the first and more beatiful, in which all the children of Iluvatar shall participate, and finally (most importantly) the world will be remade and be perfect.

[Beleg]

I always rely on the Sil for the final word since it was the most recently updated and the most accurate representation of Tolkien's final decisions

Yeah sure, Gil-Galad son of Fingon..:( eek! The whole alternative version of Morwen's death....:(

[Helcaraxë]

What does "and so shall all things be rolled away..." mean? If it means everything shall cease to exist, why would Eru permit that? Or maybe it means rolled away into the new world that shall be created in the second music of the Ainur. And which of those versions is the most recent? regardless of the version, one thing is absolutely clear: that the world will be remade and the music shall be "played aright." Or at least thats how it seems.

[Helcaraxë]

Regardless, even in Tolkien's earliest version of the Music of the Ainur in the BLT (hint: it's not bacon lettuce and tomato...:D ) He makes it clear that there will be a mightier version of the Music after the end of days.

(BTW Beleg, yes..Gil-Galad is Fingon's son...and anyway, the HoME are no more reliable-Gothmog, son of Melko???!!!)

[Elendil3119]

(BTW Beleg, yes..Gil-Galad is Fingon's son...and anyway, the HoME are no more reliable-Gothmog, son of Melko???!!!)
You must be careful with the time-line of the writings...;) In the last few years of his life, Tolkien wrote that Gil-galad was the son of Orodreth, not Fingon. There are a few threads in the Guild of Scholars that deal with the subject of discrepancies in Tolkien's writings. Here they are:

Published Silmarillion vs. HoMe (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12007)
Discrepancies in Tolkien's Writings (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11937)

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Morgoth"sBane
(BTW Beleg, yes..Gil-Galad is Fingon's son...and anyway, the HoME are no more reliable-Gothmog, son of Melko???!!!)

Depends what material you are looking at - Gothmog as Melkor's son was abandoned by Tolkien himself. Gil-galad as Orodreth's son was Tolkien's last view on GG's parentage. So there you have it - what Tolkien wrote in the last years of his life should be taken as fact (unless it's something that doesn't make sense at all!).

[Helcaraxë]

Yes, that's certainly true, but you still have'nt answered my question.

[Inderjit S]

(BTW Beleg, yes..Gil-Galad is Fingon's son...and anyway, the HoME are no more reliable-Gothmog, son of Melko???!!!)

Please make sure you know what you are talking about before commenting. Just because you have read BoLT doesn't mean all hoME is the same. BoLT-Tolkiens early ideas.
HoME 3-poem versions of Narn i Hin Hurin and Lay of Leithian they fit in with the early style of Tolkiens legendarium.
HoME 4-Early Silmarillion.
HoME 5-Second Silmarillion+Lost Road a different Tolkiens story.
HoME 6-9, drafts of LoTR
HoME 10-12, Essays on F.A and others plus the Silmarillion with which the published Silmarillion is based.

Note this is a VERY condensed description.

[Helcaraxë]

I DO know what I'm talking about. Meaning no offense, but what you said was'nt very polite. I understand that BoLT was Tolkien's early ideas, but regardless, that has nothing to do with what I'm saying, which is that all Music of the Ainur versions agree (even in the version of the Music of the Ainur in BoLT) that there will be a second music.