Scouring of the Shire

[Talimon]

For those of you who haven't heard yet, the Scouring of the Shire is being cut. Not just the chapter, but the whole deal. Now I don't know if this means we won't see the Shire after the four hobbits return, but the point remains that we won't see it ravaged and it's people oppressed. I've heard some people complain about the fact that it leaves out Merry and Pippin's growth, but to me that's not as important as showing that no victory comes without a price. It's also an extremely emotional chapter for Frodo, in that it helps form his growing resolve to leave Middle Earth. I think that all along the journey Frodo has this romantic vision of the Shire in his head, and he imagines it as a corner of the world that not even the malice of the enemy can reach. In a way he almost hopes that once he reaches home his old life will return and he will be able to leave his troubles behind him. In a way the Scouring represents his sacrifice and foreshadows him leaving Middle Earth.

In either case, while I can see where PJ is coming from with many of the other changes, this is one change that I just can't stand. It's one of the most powerful chapters in the book, in my opinion. I see what PJ means by it not being cinematic, but I think that can largely be avoided if Sarumans death is moved to TTT (as I hear is being done). If that is done then it will not seem like "another" ending, and another victory. In the book that chapter climxes with Sarumans death. In the movie it could climax with Frodo leaving the Grey Havens. I have this very cinematic image of it in my head.

What do others think? Would it just drag the movie or could it add something?

[ReadWryt]

This, like Bombadil, I totally agree with. Cinematically it makes perfect sense not to expect an audience to come along for this rollercoaster ride to the big conclusion at Mount Doom only to have the brakes slammed on while the Hobbits sort out what Saruman has done in their realm for 15 minutes before getting to the Grey Havens. I know that in the book it works, to be frank there is a world of difference between the way that a reader's investment in the characters would drive them on through the Scouring because they WANT more and are willing to read on, but to include the Scouring in the movie would be so anticlimatic after the destruction of the Ring that you would bore the heck out of all those in the theatre who were not Tolkien fans.

[Talimon]

I don't know about that. Afer Mt. Doom we are going to have Aragorn made king and marrying Arwen, not to metion Faramir and Eowyn. I wouldn't exagerate about it being 15 minutes though. It could be fit into 5, if done compact. The point is that I don't think it will work out well to have a "happy ending". I'm not saying the ending in the book is somber or anything, but it deffinitely has some bitterness to it that I think should be captured. If the Grey Havens are done well then I suppose the Scouring won't be necessary, however.

[Niniel]

I really don't see why it had to be cut, you can do it fairly short of you want, and it's very important in the book (I would say it was one of the most important, if not THE most important, chapter in the book). If you cut this, you really haven't understood the book at all, IMO!

[ReadWryt]

...5 minutes would be about enough time to show the Hobbits get to Hobbiton, find "Sharkey" and see Wormtonge do his business...it would not let you see any of the character development that makes the Scouring an important part of the book. Cinematically it would play like showing the Astronauts from "Apollo 13" get home and have their first dinner with their families before rolling the credits.

The Coronation of Aragorn can be equated with the scene at the end of Star Wars where they get their medals, and the Grey Havens is mildly problematic from the standpoint that the audience will not have been given any of the background to know what the big deal is about sailing west, or why it's such an honor to be allowed to do so, but it's a tear jerker ending guaranteed to leave folks longing for more story...which is better then the Scouring which would leave them longing for Credits...

[Rangerdave]

I am with you at the present, but soon I shall not be. I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things right, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you my dear friends, you are grown up now […] and I have no fear at all for any of you

Well, I fear that sentiment is now useless. Also, the scouring of the Shire is for me one of the most moving passages in the entirety of the Lord of the Rings Merry and Pippin have already become Heroes in the romantic sense, But the return and liberation of the Shire is where Sam ceases to be Frodo's man-servant and rises to the mantle of Hero in his own right.

I fear that the less read viewer of the film will just assume that the War of the Ring was just something that happened "down south somewhere"; the essential message that no land is safe from evil is completely lost.

What a shame.


ps Hey Readwryt, what the heck is that thing on your avatar. I looks like a constipated hamster. Could be worse I guess. You could have used this.

[aimeel27]

Please forgive me, I'm new. I just finished reading LOTR and aside from being very sad, I am a little confused. I don't understand why Frodo had to leave. And how? Did he actually die? I don't understand what happened and I've read it a couple of times. Is it because he was hurt? Or is it because it was time for all the ring-bearer's to leave Middle Earth? Someone please exoplain to me. At first I thought he died but then when Gandalf,Bilbo and Galedriel went with him, I became more confused.If they didn't actually die, then where did they go? What are the Grey Havens? Is it the comparison to our Heaven for Middle earth?and what did the ship have to do with it? I felt so bad that Sam was left behind. By the end of the third book I finally understood the true moral of the story-friendship. Friendship in it's truest form: Frodo/Sam, Pippin/Merry and Legolas/Gimli. The friendship these pairs had really got to me. Not to mention Aragorn's true love for Frodo-oh God, I'm tearing up again (yes, I'm a chick). Someone please explain Frodo'a last journey to me-please!!!!

[Thorin]

This kills me! Here are the FADs who normally support PJ to a ridiculous fault upset with this change, and here are the purists who normally think PJ is upsetting the Tolkien apple cart, supporting PJ's cutting of SOS...The tragedy! Hyuck, hyuck!

I agree with ReadWryt. The SOS works great in the book, but cinematically, it would not work. This is what I just don't understand with the movie supporters..THey argue to the nth degree that PJ needed to make these changes to agree cinematically yet disagree with the one place (other than the cutting of Bombadil) where it is the perfect change cinematically...:confused:

With the cutting of the SOS which would be quite anticlimatic, PJ can end with the tragic love story! Aragorn is crowned king, everyone goes home happy, and a Frodo voice over explains the aftermath (i.e. Arwen going off to die and the trips to the Grey Havens.) I do believe that this is going to happen...Cinematically, it is a perfect ending...Isn't that what the FADs have been supporting all along? Cinematically pleasing changes that keep the spirit of Tolkien?

Sure the SOS is a great part of the book and important for the conclusion of the story and the characters, but the movies do not go into the depth and detail that make the SOS so meaningful, so it is not needed in the movie. Really FADs, you can't have it both ways. PJ had to cut for time and cinematic purposes.. You've supported that endlessly...You can't now go and complain about PJ doing the very thing you supported.

[ReadWryt]

RD,

My previous avatar was Buru Buru Totoro from the beloved Miyazaki Hayao movie "Tonari no Totoro" or "My Neighbor Totoro". He's the biggest and wisest of the three Totoro and is "the lord of the forrest". He can make the plants grow! If you haven't seen this movie I would strongly urge you to do so, but be warned...it seems like some little kiddie movie that would entertain 5 year olds alone, but it's one of the most endearing and charming movies I've seen in years. Unfortunately Buena Vista released a dubbed version, but if you look around you might be able to find a copy of the Subtitled version, MUCH better!

Currently I have Jiji from the same film maker's "Majo no Takkyubin" or Kiki's Delivery Service. Another splendid movie, though not quite as charming IMHO as Totoro...

I was waiting to drag Hamutaro (Hamtaro in America) out as the big gun if we didn't get the votes, but since at this moment TheTolkienForum is NUMBER ONE on TolkienWorld the voters have spared you all from having to see the frighteningly cute image of THAT hamster...

[Minas]

You go away for a while and everything gets turned on its head. :rolleyes:

Actually I think both are right. Cinematically it would be an anticlimax to include SOS at the end for all the reasons mentioned. The bagging PJ got from the open ended FOTR finish New Line would probably have something to say.

In my heart I want SOS to be included because of recent and ongoing real events it would be a powerful reminder of the true cost of war. Wasn't Tolkien himself deeply scared by his time in WW1 and cast the hobbits to personify some of the trench fighters he knew. More learned scholars than I can confirm this but it was a very powerful section of the book and could still carry a powerful message in the movie.

To include it and still have the powerful ending would take some script rewriting for the TTT which I think PJ should attempt and soldier on through the abuse as per normal.

[Talimon]

Thorin-

You have to be a little more open minded. I'm sure many supporters of the movie are happy the Scouring has been cut and many opponents fiercely disagree. I don't like putting people into categories, let alone myself. I overall extremely enjoyed the movie. That doesn't mean I thought it was perfect, and there are many, many spots I'd change were I in control. And so it is with any of the other changes. For example the elves at Helms Deep. I don't love the change but it doesn't bother me either. Cutting the Scouring however is a whole other issue. I mean, Bombadil wasn't important for many reasons, not least being that he did nothing to further the story. But the Scouring is absolutely necessary. It is the essential ending of the tale. It would be like cutting out Lothelorien altogether. It's just necessary.

In terms of being cinematic, I don't see what the problem is. For me it's not the actual details that occur in the Scouring that matter. It's more the fact that the beautiful countryside of the Shire is destroyed and it's inhabitants abused. With minimal dialogue it would be possible to show the Scouring in 5-10 minutes. The price might be (and I stress might) a slightly less cinematic ending, but the reward would be a much more emotionally touching one. If not on the theatrical release then at least on the DVD.

PJ himself even said he was never really comfortable with that chapter, and he went on to prove it by saying that his homage to it was Frodo's image in the mirror. Homage? Right after he has his vision Galadriel says, "That is what will come to pass should you fail." That goes against the whole idea of the Scouring!!!! The whole point of that chapter was to show that no vicotry is without it's wounds. By Galadriel saying what she says she is implying that should he succeed the Shire will remain green and beautiful. That's hardly what I'd call homage.

[entbabe]

Originally posted by aimeel27
Please forgive me, I'm new. I just finished reading LOTR and aside from being very sad, I am a little confused. I don't understand why Frodo had to leave. And how? Did he actually die? I don't understand what happened and I've read it a couple of times. Is it because he was hurt? Or is it because it was time for all the ring-bearer's to leave Middle Earth? Someone please exoplain to me. At first I thought he died but then when Gandalf,Bilbo and Galedriel went with him, I became more confused.If they didn't actually die, then where did they go? What are the Grey Havens? Is it the comparison to our Heaven for Middle earth?and what did the ship have to do with it? I felt so bad that Sam was left behind. By the end of the third book I finally understood the true moral of the story-friendship. Friendship in it's truest form: Frodo/Sam, Pippin/Merry and Legolas/Gimli. The friendship these pairs had really got to me. Not to mention Aragorn's true love for Frodo-oh God, I'm tearing up again (yes, I'm a chick). Someone please explain Frodo'a last journey to me-please!!!!

Aimell--there are probably many different opinions people could offer you as to why Frodo (the Elves and Gandalf) leaves for the Grey Havens. For one, Frodo was poisoned by the Nazgul sword and later on by Shelob, not to mention breathing in the toxic fumes of Mordor. On a purely physical level, he was soon going to die so Gandalf and the remaining elder elves decided to take him with them because of his great sacrifice. Much of the background to this is explained in Tolkien's "The Silmarillion" which is a challenging but incredibly rewarding read. If you really want to know the bigger picture, then I suggest you delve into it. But to briefly answer your question: Frodo takes a special boat that travels from the last Elvish outpost (The Grey Havens) across the ocean and then, actually leaving Middle Earth across the "straight road", reaches the now invisible realm of Valinor (where the immortal Elves and Valar live). Only Elves and Maia (like Gandalf) can take this trip, but on this occasion the rules are bent and the hobbits are also taken to await the ends of time. Even some special men have made this trip and it is said that one day these worlds will be reunited...

(See http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ for further explanations)

As far as the ending of the film, the SOS is a vital part of Tolkien's vision. Saruman on one level represents technology and machinery and the Shire represents living in harmony with the natural environment. Thus Tolkien's vision (seen by Frodo's in Galadriel's mirror) of the final and ultimate destruction. The special seeds that Galadriel gives to Sam are the last of the Elder Days to be 'born' in ME. It is also intrinsic to Tolkien's worldview that Earth must continue through cycles of creation and destruction until "Man" works out how to return to "God".

http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/tolkien/hallsofmanwe.jpg (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/tolkien/hallsofmanwe.jpg)

While some of this may seem too esoteric for film, a trilogy, even a cinematic one, begs depth. But, it's nigh impossible to communicate this to a general movie audience which is why I can also see the points of RW and others in supporting the cut. For me the SOS is the emotional climax of the entire story. I too would prefer to see the original ending left in and the Grey Havens departure used as the true closure of the cinema trilogy. It could be the perfect way to leave a movie audience: inspired and in awe at seeing that something greater lies beyond the bounds of our mortal world...

[ReadWryt]

Hey...there is nothing saying that just because they cut the scouring we won't see them come home to a ravaged and corrupted Hobbiton, they just aren't going to be slamming on the breaks while they argue with the Sherrif and hear about Sharkey and all most likely. I personally feel that Tom Bombadil is at least an important vehicle to the development of our understanding of Middle-earth and the comprehension of the fact that we are dealing with a world that has a long history as well as the fact that there are powers and creatures that are greater then we understand, in the context of the story as it unfolds, but I also understand that he as a character didn't do anything to advance the plot in so far as getting the Ring to destruction is concerned and so could be easily cut from the movie.

Jackson has made it quite obvious anyways that he is not really interested in developing the characters in the way Tolkien did. Frodo's stand at the ford did as much for developing his character as the Scouring did for the Hobbits in general, so don't be surprised if there are other "surprises" along the way...

[Talimon]

Frodo's stand at the ford did as much for developing his character as the Scouring did for the Hobbits in general, so don't be surprised if there are other "surprises" along the way...

No offense, but that's a far cry in my opinion. While I think Frodo's stand at the Ford is an emotional scene that says a lot about Frodo and his reselience towards the ring and the riders, the Scouring says leagues about Frodo and his growth. Frodo's depression helps drive home the point that there are no victors, and that no victory can exist without some bitterness. In this case the bitterness is extremely emotional, and I think it's a shame PJ is cutting it out.

[ReadWryt]

um, which part of "in general" did I not convey in my post?

[Talimon]

It would seem as if all of it, wouldn't it.

[ReadWryt]

Ah...ok, well let me restate my sentiment as clearly as I may try...Frodo's stand at the ford did as much for developing his character as the Scouring did for the Hobbits in general, "in general" meaning no one of them in particular or specifically but the lot of them as a group. It must have been presumption on my part to assume that was implied in the original quote because there seemed to have been some confusion leading to statements about one particular hobbit that followed...

[ReadWryt]

Ok, for those of you folks who wanted P.J.'s Scouring of the Shire, here is a link to a picture that should give you an idea of what it would have been like...note that Pippin, Rosie, Sam and Merry are off to the right, and that Sam appears to be in this picture in three different places at the same time...

http://www.readwryt.com/scouring01.jpg

R.W.

[Talimon]

LOL, that's funny... I actually think I see a fourth Sam, but that might just be me :).

Was that shot from the movie? I don't remember it.

[ReadWryt]

but that might just be me .

...that's strange, why would YOU be in the picture, and do you REALLY look like Sam? :D

It was intercut into the "Mirror" view...

[ReadWryt]

What I really like is that guy standing in the background behind Pippin...he looks like "Grishnak of Borg" or something...

[Talimon]

I think the books ending is very powerful. Just a simple "I'm back." It says so much. In terms of affecting the reader it's like the final sigh after all has been said and done.

On the other hand, it could be just as fine having it end with Sam, Merry and Pippin sitting listening to the waves. One ending I have heard suggested (and one I certainly disagree with) is having it end with Arwen and Aragorns story finished. That is, Aragorn dying and Arwen going to old Lorien to pass away. Other then being an extremely bitter ending, it also wouldn't quite fit in my opinion.

[Mad Adski]

I have to say I'm dissapointed that the SOS is being left out, as I believe this does yank the heart away from the story - the fact that the effects of war do not end when the last shot is fired. While it does seem that the SOS would be un-cinematic, I think that a shortened version of the SOS would not have taken that much away from the ending. Considering the films are a 9 hour epic, it need not have an ending that is only two minutes long. If the whole thing could be done in ten minutes, then I really don't think the ROTK would suffer as a film. However, without it, the story suffers.

I did support PJ's changes to FOTR, and if there are some changes in the battles then fair enough, but I really don't see why an integeral part of the story need be cast aside.

[Lady_of_Gondor]

I have read on many threads on this website that there is rumor that there will be no scouring of the shire at the end of the Return of the King movie. However, to me this seems contradictory with what was presented in the Fellowship of the Ring. You see, in the movie, when Frodo looks into the mirror of Galadriel, he sees the shire being burned and overthrown and so on. Why would Jackson bother to put this vision into the Fellowship if he did not intend to include the Scouring in the final movie?? If anyone has any insight on this it would be greatly appreciated!

[Darth Saruman]

I've heard that the mirror scene was the way that PJ paid tribute to the scouring. He isn't going to have more of it at the end of the trilogy. That was the last of it.

[Talimon]

First of all, keep in mind that with the way PJ is making these movies anything is possible. Yes, even Tom Bombadil (don't make me pull out the quote where PJ says that he'd like to go back after the trilogy is done and shoot another half hour or so of extra footage, including Bombadil). Having said that, at the mirror (in the movie) Galadriel says "That is what shall come to pass should you fail." Since Frodo doesn't fail, it doesn't come to pass.

Of course, I'm still hoping PJ changes his mind about this change and goes in to do some extra shooting. But then again that would contradict what Galadriel said, so I suppose PJ has put himself in a situation where he can't add it in later. Too bad, if you ask me.

[Lady_of_Gondor]

Thank you very much for the insight. I hadn't thought of it that way. But I suppose its better that he included it in the mirror scene than not including it at all. If I were the director I wouldn't have cut it at all. But alas, I am not, and must suffer through changes and/or cuts!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Here's a thought:

In the books it is Sam, not Frodo who sees what is happening in the Shire while looking through the mirror. Also, what he sees is not hobbits in chains, buildings burning, or orcs. Instead he sees trees being chopped down, Bagshot Row dug up, and a red-brick building. If you remember, in the books the hobbits of the shire are not imprisoned or tortured (except for those in the Lockholes) in any way as what Frodo's vision in the mirror of Galadriel in the movies portrayed. What Frodo saw is what would happen should he fail - Sauron would eventually destroy the Shire. What Sam saw is what happened. Perhaps PJ was just trying to raise the emotions of his audiences to make them realize that the quest must not fail. Since what Frodo sees doesn't come to pass I don't think that it is a reference to the scouring of the Shire - especially since he didn't really see anything which is quite accurate to what happens in the Shire - unless PJ really messes the whole thing up or if there is no scouring. Grrr... :( Anyway, what I'm saying is that maybe it wasn't a reference to the scouring at all? Maybe PJ is going to save the scouring as a surprise. Personally, I will be pretty sad if there is no scouring. Frodo has to go home and go to the Gray Havens, and if he goes home I think that the scouring is essential to the plot - especially with Saruman. No wishing to punch his pimply faces and thinking you Shiriffs look a lot of tom fools? That would be awfull!

[ReadWryt]

That's funny, cuz when I said things like that about Frodo standing up to the Nazgul alone at the Ford I was labeled a Rabid Purist Nutcase...and nobody has yet shown me one good reason why from a cinematic standpoint the scene needed to be shot the way that it is, yet it is all too clear why the Scouring being included in the end of The Return of the King would be a cinematic Faux Pas...I think I'm beginning to understand how this works now, I've been mistaken in attempting to argue using logic instead of personal gut feelings about the works and so have been "wrong" all this time...

[Talimon]

First of all, personally I also wish PJ had kept Frodo defying the Nazgul. But, and I think this is important, the point where you become a "Rabid Purist Nutcase" is when, based on that sole change, you shun the movie as a whole. I'm not saying you've done this, but that is where logic comes into play. Also, I think there is a major difference between Frodo defying the Nazgul and the Scouring of the Shire. Leaving out the former is only ommiting one detail from a much larger scene. Cutting the latter is not only butchering one of the most memorable chapters in the book, but perhaps one of the most meaningful ones. As much as I liked the Old Forest and Bombadil, they really didn't do much for the story. The Scouring is an important part of the story, and in many ways the whole ending of the tale is altered by cutting it.

As you no doubt know, I am all for supporting PJ's vision to make these movies as cinematic as possible. At the same time, I've admitted that he's had to walk a fine line between being faithful to the book and still keeping the movie good. I think cutting the Scouring is way too liberal. Plus, at least personally I can see it as being very cinematic at the same time. PJ as already shown us that he can end a movie without a classic "happy ending". I'm sure he'd be able to do it in RotK as well, if he chose to.

[PRH]

Nenya, read this:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2936

It includes the following:
Originally posted by PRH
"The scouring of the shire is out. PJ said it simply was not practical to retain it, as the story arc is rooted in Frodo's quest to destroy the ring. He said that while understanding the reasons -- personal and literal -- that the passage was important to Tolkien, that it adds an unnecessary coda to the story that he had always, even as a reader, found "awkward." He said that the scenes in Galadriel's mirror were his way of paying "homage" to the material, as showing the possible results if the quest should fail. He gave no indication of how he was going to get around this in the final movie, but we should probably start speculating now, as it seems certain."

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thanks PRH! I can see that I'm behind in TTT news. I had no idea about all that. I call it very depressing. I absolutely adore PJ's first movie, but with all the things he seems to be changing I'm not sure what I'll think of the next one. Thanks for the info!

[PRH]

No problem, and sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.

[ReadWryt]

Here is a link to a picture I found of the only remnant of "The Scouring" that was shot for the film, bits of which were used when Sam gazed into the Mirror...

http://www.readwryt.com/scouring01.jpg

Enjoy it while you can, it's all of the scouring you will get.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thanks for the link to the pic. Bummer - it's such an important chapter too. I'm posting my opinion on the other "Scouring of the Shire" thread.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Just had to jump in and give my piece after just finding out yesterday that PJ was going to cut out the Scouring. Just like Talimon I think that "The Scouring is an important part of the story, and in many ways the whole ending of the tale is altered by cutting it." It shows that evil can get in anywhere, anytime. I just can't see the hobbits returning home to a Shire not touched in any way by the War. Like someone mentioned (I can't remember who), The Shire is always this little safe spot in Frodo's heart, and I feel that the sadness of the torn up Shire is only part of what Frodo and the hobbits have to deal with when they get home. Life couldn't be just a piece of cake after Sauron was destroyed. It just doesn't make sense for the hobbits to go home to a happy, prosperous Shire. I think the the Scouring is necessary to convey how much Sauron touched Middle Earth. I just can't picture a place as comfortable as The Shire staying completely untouched by evil while the rest of ME was in turmoil. Not to mention the fact that the hobbits think that they are going to find the Shire just like it was, but then realize that evil cannot be destroyed by one incident. Sauron touched ME, and his touch would remain long after he was destroyed. Such is the way of evil.

As for the Cinematical element, I think a bitter-sweet ending would be perfect. I can't see the movie ending completely happy. So much sacrifice was involved by Frodo and sacrifice loses it's potency if there is nothing to sacrifice. If everything is just great in the Shire and Frodo goes home and lives happily ever after, where is his sacrifice? Of course this also has to do with Frodo's unrest in the Shire, the scars that the Ring left with him, his going to the Gray havens, etc. Yes, a bitter-sweet ending would be perfect especially since so much of the movie is bitter-sweet. A big happy schabang at the end wouldn't fit.

By the way, does anyone know if they are or aren't going to have the departures to The Gray Havens?

[Talimon]

By the way, does anyone know if they are or aren't going to have the departures to The Gray Havens?

In an interview with Elijah Wood done by Empire magazine, I think, there was question asking how it felt to film the final scene at the Grey Havens. I am pretty sure the actual words "Grey Havens" were used, and EW answered the question straight without saying anything about there being a change. On the other hand Ian Holms, the guy who did Bilbo, said his last scene in the movie has him riding with Frodo into the sunset. From what I remember the way he said that was very loose, meaning the ending might still be the same as the book. We'll have to see.

One thing worth noting is the fact that PJ said that the last scene in the book is his favorite, emotionally. I remember the interview, and he said some very insightful stuff about how it embodies the ideas of sacrifice and giving. So I don't think the ending will be completely butchered, if butchered at all. That is, beyond cutting the Scouring.

[Nenya Evenstar]

One thing worth noting is the fact that PJ said that the last scene in the book is his favorite, emotionally. I remember the interview, and he said some very insightful stuff about how it embodies the ideas of sacrifice and giving. So I don't think the ending will be completely butchered, if butchered at all. That is, beyond cutting the Scouring.

Well, there are some pretty emotional scenes in TFOR, and so maybe, since those scenes were so great, PJ's favorite emotional scene will do the ending justice (I'll just have to put up with no Scouring as much I hate the idea :( ). I guess we'll see. Also, that does sound hopeful about the Gray Havens. Perhaps it will be a great ending after all. I certainly hope so - I do think that PJ did a great job with the first movie or else I wouldn't think about it all the time. :) I just want the next two movies to be as good as the first one!

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
he said some very insightful stuff about how it embodies the ideas of sacrifice and giving.
Frodo: I sacrificed myself to save the Shire. Now excuse me while I sail off to paradise.

[ReadWryt]

Isn't it interesting that when the "Purist Nutcases" were complaining about the things that Jackson cut like Frodo standing up to the Nazgul (showing his new found resolve and strength), the Blindfolding of the Fellowship by the Elves of Lothlorien (Showing the solidarity of the Fellowship) as well as other omitted items they were just not seeing how these changes were necessary for the cinematic medium, but when it is pointed out that Jackson decided not to completely destroy the Introduction=>Development of Conflict=> Resolution of Conflict structure that nearly every movie, and DEFINATELY every Adventure Movie has had, and which audiences have come to expect...the same people who decried the complaints of the purists suddenly have a problem with one of the truely rational omissions the Director is making?

[Talimon]

I don't think it's very rational to cut the Scouring of the Shire. Of course, when PJ said he cut it I take that to mean all of the events included within that chapter, including the wounded Shire. We'll have to see how he handles it, but my whole point is that I don't want a happy ending that doesn't resemble the books ending, at least the bitter aspect of it. I think the Scouring is what makes up a lot of that bitterness.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Talimon, you just about said it all. That's exactly how I feel!