Tolkien "Knowledgebase"

[Walter]

As we all have noticed, there exist several questions or topics about Tolkiens work, that are repeatedly asked or brought up. Many of those (e.g. "Who has the three elven rings at the end of the 3rd age") can be answered more or less directly with a definitive statement . Answers to those questions usually can be easily found in Tolkien's books, or Foster's or in one of the Tolkien encyclopdias around.

Other questions or topics, which are as often asked, have a less simple or a less definitive answer, and are subject to personal interpretation to a point (e.g. Tom Bombadil, the origin of Orcs, etc.). Threads with those questions pop up, are discussed for a while, and then disappear again in the depth of the forum archives until they are subject for deletion. Which I find somehow saddening for very interesting contributions that have been made get lost. And when the issue is brought up again, the discussion always has to start from scratch.

I wonder if it would be worth the effort to set up something like a "knowledgebase" where discussions about such issues are - more or less - permanently stored and available to the reader. This could be done e.g in a dedicated section of this forum, or as a separate forum (powered by vBulletin) or in a somewhat different form of a community like a "Wiki-Web".

Your thoughts please...

[Chymaera]

I think it would be worth the effort.

We would have to round up the best posts, and best threads together. We would need to find all the pertinate quotes and infomation and the best of the arguments.

lots of work

[dapence]

You know, that's a good idea. A 'knowledge base' similar to that found at MICROSOFT.com and other sites. We could host it at THELORDOFTHERINGS.com, drive it with a SQL database, so various search parameters could be entered. Sounds like we have a nice project to work on here. :)

[Beorn]

Yes....also, it sounds a lot like a technologicizeronerated version of Classics (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4089)

[Walter]

Whoah, even our WM appreciates the idea, and, yes the M$-knowledgebase was, what made me first think of something like that for Tolkien related questions....

Beorn, I don't think it quite the same as your idea, topics like "Who was the greatest Elf evah?" or "Do you think I could seduce Liv Tyler?" would not deserve any space or bandwith in this "knowledgebase" I have had in mind with my suggestion.

[dapence]

Beorn seduced Liv Tyler? I thought she was married.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Webmaster
Beorn seduced Liv Tyler? I thought she was married.
Umm, I dunno, did he?

[dapence]

Well, I don't know Walter. Tobey Maguire is dating Nicole Kidman, so why not ... ;)

I think the knowledge base is a good idea. But perhaps Beorn is correct, and we should call it the "Middle-earth Lore Base," or something like it.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Webmaster
I think the knowledge base is a good idea. But perhaps Beorn is correct, and we should call it the "Middle-earth Lore Base," or something like it.I don't mind much how it would be called, I used the term "knowledge base" mainly as a "carrier" for the idea itself...

[Ancalagon]

I like the idea, certainly there are a great many basic questions that could easily be answered, the only problem is, where do you draw the line?
Though in saying that, there are always a multitude of opinions on even the most basic questions of TLOTRs. Take any question and I guarentee you will have several differing opinions on the answer.

[Walter]

Anc,

if we actually have to draw lines then I would say: in dubio pro reo... and give it the benefit of the doubt rather than omitting something that would be worth to be taken in...

[Ancalagon]

Ok, as I said; I like the 'knowledgebase' idea and as Beorn states, it is very much in the same vein as his beloved 'classics' idea. However, I disagree with a great deal of the 'definitive' answers theory. So, I would suggest a Tolkien Knowledgebase, but rather than having 'definitive' answers to certain questions, we could index various, questions, characters, events, places etc. and provide links to all previous forum discussions on the subject. This would then allow members to choose a subject, for example Tom Bombadil and below would be links to the top 5 discussion threads held within the forum. Not only would this ensure they find probable answers to their questions, but they would also learn to view and contribute to much older threads within the forum. I think this is also a way of keeping alive some of the most interesting and informative debates held on this good forum.

Now, this in itself would mean a tremendous amount of work for all moderators, as not only would we have to index what goes down in the KB, but also search and paste the relevant links to a given subject. However, I feel it would be of immense value to all members, old and new as it would encourage the reading and participation of all that is best in this forum. I know Beorn would love to spend hours trawling through old threads:)

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
...However, I disagree with a great deal of the 'definitive' answers theory. So, I would suggest a Tolkien Knowledgebase, but rather than having 'definitive' answers to certain questions, we could index various, questions, characters, events, places etc. and provide links to all previous forum discussions on the subject. This would then allow members to choose a subject, for example Tom Bombadil and below would be links to the top 5 discussion threads held within the forum. Basically this is what I have in mind: Whenever questions or discussion-topics come up that appear being worth to be permanently stored the answers as well as the discussions should be made available to those interested in this issue, even when the original discussion has taken place months earlier.

As for the technical details: I do not think that just "indexing" those discussion threads with links to the appropriate threads or posts - at the time the posts or threads appear in the forum or afterwards - would work well, posts or threads that are deleted for some reasons lateron would produce "dead links" or gaps in our knowledgebase. Contributions that are moved or linked to the KB IMO must not be subject to the periodical deletion process due to some database maintainance of the forum. But the idea of an SQL-driven KB where one could search the KB with sql-queries to find topics of interest would surely make it one of the most "powerful" sources of Tolkien-related knowledge around...

[Chymaera]

So do we download all of the writings of Tolkein and link it all through a database? Do we sift through the threads on the Forum and seperate the wheat from the chaff and present the results?

I would like to contribute. I'm only online on the week-ends but I do a lot of thinking and I have the books I can reseach through the week.

How would it all look?

[Chymaera]

The Wiki is King. All priase Wiki the Dread TaskMaster!:p ;) :D

[Walter]

LOL Chymaera, you sound pretty enthusiastic... :)

Well, I finally decided to give it a try, I have opened a thread in the Members WWW sites section (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5739) where you can learn more about this folly of mine: TheTolkienWiki (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org)...

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Walter
LOL Chymaera, you sound pretty enthusiastic... :)

You have too be Walter when we start to "whitewash" that very large fence that you have built;)

The longest journey starts with but a single step.

[Walter]

LOL what an Avatar, you get my vote at the "Best Avatar Contest" ;)

Well, yes right now we're at 622 pages, quite a fence already...

[Chymaera]

I was thinking that we should set up a standardize entry for charactors like


name
race
dob
dod
relations: Parents, Siblings
what s/he did
who they are assosiated with
stuff like that:)

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Walter
LOL what an Avatar, you get my vote at the "Best Avatar Contest" ;)

But you are a bit bias you did design th Tolkien Wiki logo didn't you? :p ;) :D

[Walter]

Originally posted by Chymaera
But you are a bit bias you did design th Tolkien Wiki logo didn't you? :p ;) :D No, actually my son did that, but I may be biased anyway... ;)

[Walter]

We are rapidly approaching our One-Month-Anniversary at TheTolkienWiki (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org), which will be this weekend. The knowledgebase develops great, the site consists at the moment of 817 pages, 563 of which represent Compendium pages(which is some form of Tolkien-Encyclopedia with brief, but hopefully accurate descriptions of names, places, events, characters, etc.), most of which are actually filled with contents already. We have had about 28976 page accesses by now (within the last 28 days).

I should like to thank all of you who contributed or visited, but my special thanks go to Chymaera, DGoeij and Turgon (in alphabethical order), who with their frequent contributions have done a big part of the work so far and hence own most of the credits for the site.

We are still grateful for every contribution, be it feedback in form of constructive criticism or by joining in and providing us with Essays, FAQs, Book-reports or Compendium pages.

[Ancalagon]

Everytime I try to send a message to your 'edaddy' address, it refuses to accept the message??? Am I being cold-shouldered for not contributing sooner? Let me in <knock> <knock>

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Everytime I try to send a message to your 'edaddy' address, it refuses to accept the message??? Am I being cold-shouldered for not contributing sooner? Let me in <knock> <knock> Anc, I am lost about the 'edaddy' address, what do you mean, I don't have any email address that looks like 'edaddy'....

Your contributions at the Wiki would be more than welcome, just do the first steps (e.g. by creating your own member-page as described here (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?CreatingNewMemberPage)) or let me know if you want me to create it for you, or with an entry in the MessageBoard...

[Ancalagon]

Not 'edaddy', what the hell am I talking about? This is the address I mean; mailto:my@emailaddy.here?????

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Not 'edaddy', what the hell am I talking about? This is the address I mean; mailto:my@emailaddy.here????? ooops

That is the dummy email-address in the template to demonstrate how you can insert your own email-address into your member-page...

[Ancalagon]

And I am the dummy that posted a message to it;)

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Walter
I should like to thank all of you who contributed or visited, but my special thanks go to Chymaera, DGoeij and Turgon (in alphabethical order), who with their frequent contributions have done a big part of the work so far and hence own most of the credits for the site.

We are still grateful for every contribution, be it feedback in form of constructive criticism or by joining in and providing us with Essays, FAQs, Book-reports or Compendium pages.
*Chymaera wipes away a tear as he read Walter's post*
He never says nice things about us over there:D

Walter is much too modest he is the true backbone of this little project.

I am just glad that he is letting us play in his sandbox:p ;) :D

Better jump in quick or all the really great enteries will be finished;)

[Walter]

Last weekend the Tolkien-Wiki has reached the 1000 page milestone. I would like to thank once again all TTF-members who have helped making the Tolkien-Knowledgebase what it is now: An IMO excellent source of Tolkien related information...

[Ancalagon]

I agree entirely, it is as good as the information posted by those who add to the knowledge!

I am still working on my Barrow-Wights essay, it will take a while;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Gentlemen!
Please, excuse me for disturbing your men's heaven, but I would like to say a word on the topic of this thread. :p

I have seen such "knowledgebases" at the One Ring.net and in some other places, and OF COURSE AT THE WIKI ;) :) ,and I find it extremely useful to have such a sourse of information.
Of course, FIRST a list of the most frequently asked questions should exist... but it is always possible that a very interesting question might appear, though it has not been asked frequently, or ever at all, before, but it gives an opportunity to provide a good research and answer, which will benefit not only the person who has asked it, but everyone.

You're also saying that links to some wise threads would be provided in answer to the most frequently asked questions. It is of course very well, but such questions are asked mostly by "newcommers" to the world of Tolkien's art. At this initial stage of studying Tolkien, most people are eager to get an answer RIGHT AWAY and not being dismayed by too much information and references, half (or more!) of which they just can't understand, as they have not yet gained enough knowledge themselves. Believe me, I am saying this out of my personal experience!

So, what I'm trying to say is that it would be nice if at TTF :
1/ A body of true LOREMASTERS is appointed
2/ A special section ("Q&A" or "Knowledgebase" or... whatever the name is) is provided
There a question can be answered straight by the Loremasters AND links given to related threads....

Once again, I appologize for disturbing your charming macho ;) :D - discussion!

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
So, what I'm trying to say is that it would be nice if at TTF :
1/ A body of true LOREMASTERS is appointed
2/ A special section ("Q&A" or "Knowledgebase" or... whatever the name is) is provided
There a question can be answered straight by the Loremasters AND links given to related threads....

Once again, I appologize for disturbing your charming macho ;) :D - discussion! Dontcha ever call me a macho again or I'm gonna tell my wife on you... :D :p

I too would think it a good idea to have a dedicated (Tilkien-related) Q&A section on TTF - even though the TolkienWiki originally was meant as an addition to TTF, providing those sections (Compendium or Glossary, FAQ, Essays) which have been omitted here, and hence also providing some positive synergy-effects both sites could take advantage from - especially if the contents don't disappear after a while or get pruned.

As for appointing "true Loremasters" I do see a problem: To find an objective way to "spot" and "designate" those, who really are (IMO not every self-proclaimed loremaster is actually one and often those who really are, refrain from showing off their individual knowledge too blatantly) and furthermore to get them involved into providing unbiased and objective answers for this FAQ section here.

----
PS: Meanwhile everyone who wants to participate in developing or expanding an FAQ section, should feel free to do so at the TolkienWiki. ;)

----
Anc: Just take your time...

[Arvedui]

Had a first quick look at your Wiki today, Walter. It's perfect, it's beautiful. I'll look around some more, and if I find areas where I feel I can contribute, I will.

[Walter]

Thanks for the compliment, Arvedui, but I have to pass it on to the members of the TolkienWiki for it is mainly their work.

And you're very Welcome over at the Wiki, I think the Compendium entry for Arvedui would be a good starting point for you :)

I don't even dare mention an essay like "The Last Days of Arthedain"... ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
Dontcha ever call me a macho again or I'm gonna tell my wife on you... :D :p
WOW! *shaking with fear* Does she have a black belt? :eek: :D
As for appointing "true Loremasters" I do see a problem: To find an objective way to "spot" and "designate" those, who really are (IMO not every self-proclaimed loremaster is actually one and often those who really are, refrain from showing off their individual knowledge too blatantly) and furthermore to get them involved into providing unbiased and objective answers for this FAQ section here.
I knew smbd. would say that! But most of the people, who have been long time in the forum, seem to know each other and .... and perhaps some sort of a referendum would determine the "Loremasters". Don't you think it's possible? I mean, while reading the posts of everybody, and on various topics, both "serious stuff" and "light stuff", one can say whether a person has large or limited knowledge in Tolkien.

[Walter]

WOW! *shaking with fear* Does she have a black belt? :eek: :D Actually she has several...


...one with her black leather coat, anotherone she wears to that red skirt, etc.. :D

I knew smbd. would say that! But most of the people, who have been long time in the forum, seem to know each other and .... and perhaps some sort of a referendum would determine the "Loremasters". Don't you think it's possible? I mean, while reading the posts of everybody, and on various topics, both "serious stuff" and "light stuff", one can say whether a person has large or limited knowledge in Tolkien. Of course you knew and usually you can count on me when it gets to putting my foot in... ;)

I don't know if it will be possible, or better, I think it will be possible, but I wonder what the results will be. You could just give it a try and open a thread asking for the members' opinions about the true loremasters around here.

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Walter
Thanks for the compliment, Arvedui, but I have to pass it on to the members of the TolkienWiki for it is mainly their work.

And you're very Welcome over at the Wiki, I think the Compendium entry for Arvedui would be a good starting point for you :)

I don't even dare mention an essay like "The Last Days of Arthedain"... ;)

I'll see what I can get done. Need some time to do some research, and I will be gone for most of the coming week. But sure, I'll give it my best shot.

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, I liked that with the belts, Walter! :D

But you see, I'm right about one thing - a lot of the newcommers prefer to open a thread about a question that "troubles" them and then YOU COME (;)) and say: "See this/that thread..." .
They, of course, cannot know that there was such a thread. TTF is such a large place!
Now, if there were a place where the "Most often discussed topics" are gathered and the topics organized in some form (Q&A - for example), they will look there first and then decide whether their topic is worth opening a new thread or not.
Of course you knew and usually you can count on me when it gets to putting my foot in...
ALWAYS! :D

[Walter]

But Lhun, TTF is also an interesting place to explore. And before I open a new thread I usually try to find out whether the same or a similar thread already exists or not. And if something already exists, I do not open a new thread unless I have a really good reason to do so.

Part of the problems of finding certain information here result from the fact that most people prefer to open a new thread rather than to spend a few minutes using the "Search" function and find out whether this thread already exists.

And I think things would be easier to find, if only 1 "Tom Bombadil" thread or 1 "Istari/BlueWizards" thread or only 1 "Which is the greatest .......... (enter clever item/race/etc. here) evah on Arda..." thread existed rather than a dozen incarnations of basically the same topic...

IMO things would be easier if there was some separation (concerning the serious Tolkien related issues) between knowledge/information and communication and discussion/speculation and this is what I have tried to initiate with the TolkienWiki...

[Lhunithiliel]

Liebe Walter :D,
every word you say is correct... but you yourself see the facts! And strangely enough, and inspite all the logic, the fact IS that people DON'T search (usually), but are eager to share with the others something that excites them....so they open a thread. Interventions like : Look at ... (link)" are most welcome and they result in stopping an unnecessary discussion on a topic already discussed. But the fact stays - there was an unnecessarily opened thread.

Now as for the second part of your post - again you're right! What you have done at Wiki is .... can't find the better sinonym-word for "good" :)....But it IS good!!! And I think that the best thing there is the opportunity an entry to be added and/or edited! Thus, an entry can be complemented enough with factual information. Everything depends on the person who does the entry - how much knowledge he/she has on the subject and how much upright he/she is not to speculate with the space and opportunity provided.
Now the problem comes here. Here there are so many threads dedicated to one and the same subject, for example to Feanor (one of my favourite topics! ;) ). I am however afraid, that even if the asker is provided with the links to all these threads, he/she soon will be lost, will get confused and finally - will give up....:eek: Even if you merge all these threads into one, this will result in a desperately long, many-pages- thread and there is no guarrantee that EVERY post is worth taking into consideration.... So, the result will be the same as reading through the separate threads.
Therefore, I see as a solution
> either to make up something like at Wiki,
> or at merging the threads on a similar subject, some people (here come the Loremasters!) should decide what to leave and what to delete.
Thus the asker will get reliable facts and will not be confused by personal interpretatons and opinions.

[Walter]

I see a third option (and actually that was one of the main goals for the Wiki): To create those pages at the Wiki (what a few of the TTF members as well as a few others are already doing for some months now) and then route newbies there, so they can find basic information as well as answers for FAQ or essays on other interesting topics. Equipped with this information and/or knowledge they might find it easier to join - even the more sophisticated - discussion threads here...

This would IMO have the advantage that things don't have to be "invented" twice and that the information/knowledge is a result of a joint effort (rather than the "my opinion vs. your opinion"- approach of a BBS) and that everyone can add relevant pieces of information so that the system can grow organically and continuously and yet remains rather compact.

Btw. Chymaera and Maedhros want to do some pages about Fëanor (and his sons), maybe you would like to join in too...

[Lhunithiliel]

The Wiki-solution seems to me perfect!
As for Feanor pages - I'd love to, but .... the question is : Will Maedhros and Chymaera want me to join them? ;)
-----------
BTW, what's your verdict about my endeavour to describe the UT? I'm ready with a work on the first tale too. Check your MB at Wiki, pls :)