The Nazgul's winged creatures.

[Ancalagon]

It is said by ME historians and scholars alike that the Winged Beasts the Nazgul appeared on were more ancient than Dragons themselves. If this is the case, why then did it take so long for them to appear?

If they had been bred long before by Melkor in Utumno, they had yet to be revealed: until Sauron gave them to the Nazgul. From what might they have been bred, for Melkor could not create them himself and Sauron, as powerful as he was was not gifted enough to create beasts such as that of his master. Were these the winged-serpents of old that the Silmarillion speaks of, for they were not winged fire-drakes of which Ancalagon The Black was the first to be revealed.

This question leads me to wonder if they were revealed even before their time. For if they had languished under the earth in Utumno since the time of the Great Lamps and an age after this, where they, by reckoning of men still relatively young and under-developed?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
It is said by ME historians and scholars alike that the Winged Beasts the Nazgul appeared on were more ancient than Dragons themselves. If this is the case, why then did it take so long for them to appear?

If they had been bred long before by Melkor in Utumno, they had yet to be revealed: until Sauron gave them to the Nazgul. From what might they have been bred, for Melkor could not create them himself and Sauron, as powerful as he was was not gifted enough to create beasts such as that of his master. Were these the winged-serpents of old that the Silmarillion speaks of, for they were not winged fire-drakes of which Ancalagon The Black was the first to be revealed.

This question leads me to wonder if they were revealed even before their time. For if they had languished under the earth in Utumno since the time of the Great Lamps and an age after this, where they, by reckoning of men still relatively young and under-developed?



It is hard 2 say. I personally think that Melkor bred these animals in mokery of the great eagles of manwe. But the only thing i can think of is maybe there wasn't enough of them 2 be revealed in the Sil because f the Vigilance and amount of the big Eagles eg Thorondor. They might haven't been as powerful and if there wasn't many they would have been slayed by the Eagles. Also maybe they weren't fully wrought yet and he might have just forgotten about them. It would have been hard for them 2 fly around utumno would it? Maybe after the Fall of Melkor before the elves came to aman. They fled east and were discovered by Sauron later!:confused: :D :D :cool: ;) :cool: :p

[Thorin]

I was under the impression that Sauron raised and fed the birds...I believe it says that in TTT or RoTK....If they were Morgoth's, they might have been corrupted great eagles like from Thorondor's flock. Otherwise they would have to have been Maia like the drakes and Balrogs. Morgoth could not create but only corrupt, and I highly doubt Eru created such mutant monsters...

[Elanor2]

For all we know, they might not have been evil creatures at the beginning. If Sauron can breed a horse able to ride with a Nazgul on his back, it might have found perfectly harmless winged reptiles somewhere in the mountains and do the same to them?

However, I like the thought of these beasts being Melkors failed attempt to have a beast that could fight the eagles. And who knows, perhaps they were also cousins to the winged dragons.

[Mad Adski]

The steeds may have been ancient but becuase there were only nine of them, it is possible that they went unoticed amongst the hordes of Melkor. After all, until the Nazgul needed new steeds, there may have been no use for them.

They could have been almost anything, but I think they were probably relatives of dragons, or Melkor's attempts to corrupt the Eagles.

[Lantarion]

But to corrupt the Great Eagles Melkor would have to first get his hands on at least two of them. And this would be a considerable feat, as the Eagles were Maiar of Manwë and were ones of the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth. Let's not forget the terrible wound Thorondor gave Melkor himself, and he could do nothing for revenge.
I don't really know what the steeds were, but I suppose they might have been Maiar, corrupted by Melkor at the beginning of the First Age, like the Valaraukar. But that is not very probable, as Legolas killed one with a single arrow. :rolleyes:

[ReadWryt]

Pterodactyl. Yes and No. I did not intend the steed of the Witch-King to be what is now called a `pterodactyl', and often is drawn (with rather less shadowy evidence than lies behind many monsters of the new and facinating semi-scientific mythology of the `Prehistoric'). But obviously it is pterodactylic and owes much to the new mythology, and its description even provides a sort of way in which it could be a last survivor of older geological eras. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #211

This is from one of my favorite of the letters Tolkien wrote, not only because it is chock full of answers to some interesting questions, but because it has very silly drawings of what Numenorean Helms looked like...:D

[BelDain]

I don't remember, were they described as scaly/reptilian?
Maybe they were something akin to Gryphon?

[Grond]

Alas, methinks that they were the original stock from which Dragons were bred. Just because Dragons came from them doesn't mean they faded off the face of the Earth. No one knows what survived in the Withered Heath. That is where the Dragons of Morgoth fled, who is to say that their precursors did not also.

Sauron, finding them later, would not have the mastery to create new Dragons as his Master Melkor did. But could he not take them and feed them with fell meats and dote on them and make them evil? Yea!!! Sauron could do this deed. And he could make them bigger and stronger and able to withstand the terror of the Nazgul. He may even make their terror almost as great as a Nazgul. Think ye what poor Theoden King and Eowyn and Merry faced on the dark day on the Pellenor. The combined terror of the winged beast and the Nazgul borne upon its hideous back.

Man am I glad Eowyn kicked its butt!!:):);)

[Bucky]

In the beginning of The Silmarillion, it say that when Melkor returned & began the delving of Utumno, 'the blight of his hatred flowed out....Green things fell sick & rotted.......and beasts became monsters of horn & ivory & dyed the earth with their blood'.

I always took this to explain the so-called age of Dinosaurs......

I figured these birds were like pterodactyls...


>>>Otherwise they would
have to have been Maia like the drakes

Where is that info from?
I never read it. HoME?

If correct, then Glaurung was a Maia?
I know The Sil says he could talk 'because of the fell spirit in him'.
But, wouldn't Dragons, if they were Maiar, have a limited, fixed amount & be unable to just 'breed' or 'spawn' more?

[Grond]

I have yet to find in any of JRRT's works where he speaks of Maia in any being other than Sauron and Balrogs. Anyone else with more info. I've searched the indexes of all the works.

[Flame of Anor]

I would like to know what you thought the Nazgul's winged creatures were that they returned on after being swept away by the river. I think that they where some kind of oversized vulture. Let me know what you think they are.

-Flame

[Bombadillo]

I saw them as some sort of naked dark gray/black giant birds, with lots of skin and fiery eyes....

[Gil-Galad]

well I think they don't have any shape only a shadow and black,brown,grey mixed so that only shapeless darkness is seen.

[YayGollum]

Nope. You know how orcs were once elves? Well, those things were once some of those big eagle dudes. I have no real idea. just a crazy opinion.

[emopansy]

it was horses that the nazgul were riding when they were swept away by the river

[YayGollum]

That's true, but the dude was asking what we thought those flying things were that they used later. Whoops! sorry about that.

[Rúmil]

And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, fingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil. And the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all other things that fly; and he gave it to his servant to be his steed. (The battle of the Pelennor Fields; RotK, chap.6)

Some kind of pterodactyl maybe?

[YayGollum]

Sure. That'd work. Why not? Or they could just be big, scary, corrupted eagles. :rolleyes:

[Rúmil]

Leave the poor eagles alone will ya? what ever did they do to YOU?

[YayGollum]

Nothing! I like LOTR's eagles! I just thought that my theory made more sense than yours! :D

[Rúmil]

Ok, after reading this other thread, here is my definitive opinion: they were out of the stock of Dragons, bred between the days of Utumno and the time of the coming of Glaurung; but whereas Dragons seemed to be twisted reptiles inhabited by some spirit (not necessarily Maia of course) these were just monstrous animals; maybe rough sketches made before the definitive "Winged Dragon" prototype? anyway, beastly looking but not that dangerous: after all it just took Éowyn une nift blow to fell it. I'd worry more about what it was carrying.:D

[YayGollum]

Nope. It was eagles. No doubt about it. :D

[Arda's Bane]

corrupted eagles id say.

[Rúmil]

You can't rule that out, but there's NO EVIDENCE that Melkor breeded the winged dragons from eagles! so stop harassing those eagles or I'll have ye reported! :)

[Lantarion]

Sparrows who ate from a toxic dump? :p

[FINGOLFIN]

My personal conjecture was always that they were perversions of the Great Eagles. As Elves were perverted by Sauron into Orcs, I always thought he may have done the same with Eagles. I can find no reference to any other winged creatures large enough to fit the descriptions.

[YayGollum]

Yay for perverted eagles! Wait, did I just say that? oh well. Ack! Dragons were a lot bigger than these things and eagles seem to me to be just the right size. Sorry if I'm harassing them, but I was asked for my opinion.

[FINGOLFIN]

Man did I miss that one!!

I should have said that the eagles seemed the right size, and the dragons to large.

Whew!!

[Ancalagon]

Sorry, I just can't get my head round the 'eagles' theory at all. For one thing, they were seemingly always like this and taken under the care of Sauron;
A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, fingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil.

Why should they be any different to the other fell creatures that inhabited Middle-Earth, even long before the coming of Sauron? Eagles were a masterly race, The Eyes of Manwe and not easily would they be taken by Sauron. Realistically, how would Sauron ever have been in a position to trap, rear and corrupt an Eagle? They were ever out of reach of any save when they chose to come down from their high peaks.

[FINGOLFIN]

It was just a thought. Your probably right (in all likelyhood you are)...but as for my theory of origins...perhaps Melkor could have done the deed in an age long preceeding that account.

Just an idea

[YayGollum]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Melkor probably made them (since he was the dude who did that thing to the elves) and then Sauron found them again and trained them. Still, there's always the 'maybe it was' part of your quote. Also, The Hobbit does say that there were some evil eagles.