Christians

[HLGStrider]

I'm not taking sides on this argument, it takes more of theologian than me and I can see both sides. However, I sincerely doubt that Grond has been contacting evil spirits. At the same time I don't really believe in ghosts.
I think Thorin could be a little more understanding about the feelings of people who have lost loved ones... as long as they are not going to Seances... seances? Mediums and devil worshipers in search of their loved ones.

[Grond]

Personally I'm astounded at Thorin's attitude. I know absolutely where my Mother is currently residing. She is with God and looks down on loved one's in this world. That doesn't necessarily mean that her spirit need walk on this spiritual plane. Where in the Bible does it say that loved one's in heaven may not "watch over" loved ones left behind? Nowhere... that's where.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
I think Thorin could be a little more understanding about the feelings of people who have lost loved ones... as long as they are not going to Seances... seances? Mediums and devil worshipers in search of their loved ones.

First of all, I never did say that Hawk's grandfather could not have been an angel. In fact that seems most likely.

Second, for your info, HLG, though you of course didn't know, I lost my 20 year old cousin last weekend, and a good friend of the family a few days ago. I have been taking my friend's death very hard right now and I will be playing and singing much at his memoriam on Monday. I am grieving right now.

However, I can be comforted to know that they are both resting awaiting the trumpet call of Christ when He returns to earth a second time. This is what the Bible teaches and I am comforted by the fact that he is resting from his labors (as the Bible teaches) and not roasting in hell, or looking down from heaven at his family and friends suffering over his loss.

Third, Grond, I apologize if I offended you. I know it is comforting to believe that your loved ones are watching over you. However, how would you feel if you slipped into drug abuse and destroyed your health and family? What if you got in a horrific car accident and became a drooling vegetable? What kind of a God would allow a loved one in heaven to be able to look down and see the horrible suffering on their family?

The facts are, my friend and Hammer, is that the Bible does not teach that. God sends His spirit and angels to comfort us in our time of sorrow. If you want the Bible texts that show what I'm talking about, I am more than happy to send them to you in a PM.

Please accept my apologies and understand that I meant no disrespect to you. I apologize if I came off as callous and insensitive...

[Amichi]

The Flood is our explanation for the Grand Canyon, the ice age, the extinction of dinosaurs.

The Grand Canyon was formed through erosion. The colorado river flows through it, and has eroded a canyon over time. The ice age is of indeterminate origin (as far as I am aware), but flooding is unlikely to cause global cooling. Flooding is a result of global warming, after all. The extinction of dinosaurs is of unknown cause, though there are many theories on it. I've not heard a flood idea proposed, though I'm hardly omnipotent.

To perhaps explain a global note of a flood... the ice age ended, and, over time, there was a definite increase in the levels of water worldwide. This would have flooded coastal cities and low lying areas. This is part of the concern of global warming, after all.. that coastal cities will flood. If the evidence that there was a flood is there, then there it is... but unfortunately, it does not validate Christianity.. as I'm sure other cultures had their own explanations for the event, arrived at independently.

To answer your question of prayer... I do not mind prayer, as long as it is not on my behalf. If I was a Satanist, would you want me praying to Satan on your behalf? That's my outlook, there.

As for what I believe... too complicated to get into. I believe in the possibility of all gods, but that does not mean all gods exist. I'm currently pursuing a number of theories, the most interesting of which involves a god only being as powerful as its worshipper's belief. I rather like this theory, truth be told, though I've yet to find any evidence for or against.

I rather like the observer effect in quantum physics, too..

[Arathin]

Grond, you may pray for me, but just know that I too pray for you. All of you in fact. Just as I am sure you all pray for me. We all believe that the other needs to see the light and so pray for them. Neat isn't it?

[HLGStrider]

To answer your question of prayer... I do not mind prayer, as long as it is not on my behalf. If I was a Satanist, would you want me praying to Satan on your behalf?

I might have a problem with you contacting Satan at all... it would make me worry about you, but I don't think I would care. After all, I believe that Satan exists, but while you might hurt yourself doing so it isn't going to hurt me at all... He doesn't have the power to really bless anyone... just to hurt a little, and not much because God is stronger.

The Grand Canyon was formed very quickly by a phenonmynom... phenomynom... WHY DO I USE THESE WORDS!!?!?!?!?... a process that is actually happening at Niagra Fall in a much smaller scale. After the flood when the waters started to drain there was a large inland sea dammed up around there. In fact there was another up in I think Montana which the Secular Geologist acknowledge, though they disagree about where it came from. I forget whether the dam burst or eroded, but it created a large waterfall which caused a down current which ate away at the cliffs behind it. It took I'd say about twenty years.

When I say world wide examples of a flood I mean like fish skeletons over mountains. Ripple marks... I suppose they could be explained by an Ice Age, but the flood explanation works much better.. there are really good books about this.

The flood is not proof, it is just some nice reassurance that the Bible is not just a bunch of lies.

[Amichi]

It took I'd say about twenty years.

I was curious, so I did a little bit of research. The Grand Canyon is a relatively new phenomenon and it was formed very rapidly, in a geologic sense. However... rapid in this case is misleading to those used to judging things by a human lifespan. The Grand Canyon is a product of the last five or six million -years-.

Where'd you find your other information?

When I say world wide examples of a flood I mean like fish skeletons over mountains.

At one time, most of the eastern seaboard of the united states was a shallow sea, with the mountains being pretty close to the coast. As plate tectonics formed these mountains, I would think that they, when lower than they were, were submerged in the sea. We're talking.. 4 billion years here. To give a sense of scale...

If this were the four billionth, two thousand and second year, the year would be 4,000,002,002 OE (Origin Earth).

The rippling effect you spoke of is caused by the slow erosion of a melting glacier, too.

That being said, I'm curious as to what books you've been reading. Care to share? I am not being sarcastic; I am honestly interested. I am always willing to entertain alternate theories.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Arathin
...but just know that I too pray for you. All of you in fact. Just as I am sure you all pray for me. We all believe that the other needs to see the light and so pray for them. Neat isn't it? No, Arathin, I don't pray for you. I don't feel you "need to see the light" or try to counsel you to "change your mind" for no matter what everyone of us here would say would not be due to make you change your mind.

You will do what you feel, you have to do and that's it.

P.S. But I do hope that whatever you do will turn out well for you...

[HLGStrider]

Where'd you find your other information?

Truthfully I can't remember where I got that particular theory. It was in two different books, one on simularities between Mount St. Helens and other geographic sites, and another called "The Young Age of the Earth".

I read a lot of books. Most of them were written for younger kids, since I went through my scientific streak at about 12. There was Of Pandas and People on Biological origens, that was highly advanced. Then several books on Dinosaurs...

I read a lot.

Personally, I don't think this thread will convert anyone. It is a highly rare person who is converted by arguments. In fact it puts most people off so I don't know why I bother... most people come to Christianity for emotional fulfillment of some sort...

[Arathin]

Thank you Walter. That was extremely kind of you to say that. Again thank you. For you words and silent prayer of hope.

[Elu Thingol]

Your arguments had me vexed Thorin, and I had never thought of Samuel as being a demon. So being extremely curious I took the time to look through papers, essays, and other things relating to the subject. The essay I found, that I think sums up what most scholars are saying about the subject comes from a Bible difficulties dictionary in the Zondervan dictionary. It reads:


What took place in 1 Samuel 28:8-16? Did Samuel really appear to Saul? Did Saul actually talk with him in the witch’s cave?

There is little doubt that satanic powers are able to produce illusionary images and communicate with the living by this means. Such “lying wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9) are part of the Devil’s stock in trade. On the other hand, it certainly lies within God’s power as well to present an appearance for the purpose of conveying His message by a special revelation.

The oracle delivered by this shade or apparition sounded like an authentic message from God, with its announcement of doom on the guilty, unfaithful king. It even sounded like something Samuel himself would have said, had he remained alive after the massacre of Ahimelech and the priests of Nob (1 Sam. 22:11-19). Therefore it is entirely possible that this apparition was the actual shade of Samuel himself, when he asked, “Why has thou disquieted me, to bring me up?” Apparently Samuel had been directed by God to leave his abode in Sheol or Hades (where even the saved believers awaited the future resurrection of Christ, which would bring about their transferal to heaven itself) in order to deliver this final message to King Saul. Conceivably the deceased Samuel could have communicated long distance through an apparition in the cave of Endor, but the words “to bring me up” make this very doubtful.

On the other hand, it should be observed that the witch herself was quite startled by this ghostly visitor, as she said, “I see a god [Heb. ‘elohim] coming up out of the earth” (v.13). This clearly implies that this authentic appearance of the dead (if such it was) was no result of her own witchcraft; rather, it was an act of God Himself that terrified her and that she had in no sense brought about in her own power. It would seem that God chose this particular occasion and setting to give His final word to the evil king who had once served His cause with courage and zeal. No scriptural basis for spiritism is furnished by this episode, nor for necromancy—both of which are sternly condemned as abominations before the Lord (Deut. 18:9-12; cf. Exod. 22:18; Lev. 19:26,31; 20:6,27; Jer. 27:9-10).(Archer)

[Thorin]

Well, the above arguments sound somewhat plausible. Direct intervention by God? Possible. However what you have is God working directly with and through a witch, an agent of the devil. God collaborating with the very thing He vehemently condemns? Doesn't sound right to me.

The point I am trying to make, and which your article never supports either, is that the spirit was not Samuel's spirit on its own merit. You can't just take one verse and base your theology around it. You must let scripture interpret scripture. Hebrew theology shows that that Sheol was the abode of all dead. English translates this as hell, but that is not accurate. There was no consciousness in Sheol.

Scriptures do not support what seems to be in 1 Samuel. I still stand by the demonic angle. You don't think even Satan's agents can be surprised by what or whom Satan impersonates?

[morning star]

Originally posted by Amichi


See, I was going to stay out of this discussion, too...

The fact is, Christianity is nothing more than a composite religion formed on the bones of many an old religion. Contrary to popular belief, Christianity is a relatively new religion, spawned from a tribal religion of the jewish people. Yaweh... or God, if you prefer... was nothing more than one of many tribal gods. Over time, the religion adjusted to make him the prime god.

On the same token, Christians borrowed from the old Norse religions, the Egyptian religion, old Judaism, Greek Mythology.. you name it, elements were borrowed.



Were they? What if They borrowed from Christianity? Instead of Christianity borrowing from them?

I believe the borrowed from Christianity.

[Éomond]

I'm a Christain! I'm a LotR fan! YEAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:) :D :)

[Amichi]

Were they? What if They borrowed from Christianity? Instead of Christianity borrowing from them?

I believe they borrowed from Christianity.

You may believe what you wish, but the facts don't back you up, here. As a couple of examples.. Christmas is an old Pagan holiday, Easter was founded around the Spring Equinox.. a very old traditional day for rebirth. It is a well known fact that Christianity ursurped these holidays to spread their own religion more effectively. I applaud the shrewd marketing, there, but I must frown on the current insistence that they founded the holidays themselves.

[HLGStrider]

check a few post pages back... we've already discussed Trees and Christmas.

Christmas was I believe made to combat that holiday. There was a big Roman celebration at that time of year which was quite an orgy. The general excitement of it made the abstaining Christians look quite boring, so they started their own. It was a bit of marketing, but they didn't directly take the holiday away.

Easter you are wrong on. This is the only Biblical date we can be sure of (for instance it is nearly impossible to believe that Jesus was born on Dec. 25th) but Easter coincides with the end of an already in place Jewish Holiday known as Passover. This cannot be denied. I do not doubt that some easter traditions may not be of a pure Christian back ground (The big pink rabbit for instance), but Easter is. Passover is an old tradition based on the Exodus story, I believe. We did not steal this from the Equinox idea, and they fall close together only on coincidence. (Passover hardly resembles pagan Equinox celebrations).

[Amichi]

Please, then, explain to me why Easter falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring Equinox? It seems to me that it ought be on.. I dunno... the day that Jesus was arisen, or something?

It seems very pagan to me.. and the general concept of rebirth is the same, is it not?

[HLGStrider]

Origenally at least it was the end of passover, and it was this year for sure. Probably, having no idea of the date their ancestors were rescued, the jewish people chose this date because it does have astronomical significance. It was the day he arose because he was killed at the end of the Passover on a Friday and arose on Sunday. If you are doing the three day argument the Jewish people count every day even if he was only dead a few hours of it. He died Friday was dead all Thursday and a little of Sunday. In their counting that is three days.

The concept of rebirth is natural and does normally coincide with the begining of Spring. (The Pandora type of thing)... Personally, while I can think of rebirth in natural terms, I can think of no myth at the time where someone actually comes back from the dead... I'm sure there are some, but my mythology is failing me right now... urg..

The idea being that Jesus defeated all death, conquered it, and became something greater than it. He wasn't reborn in the same way. He was reborn greater.

Now coming back to life after death is a dream all men have. However, there is only one who does it. It isn't a pagan idea unless you count the Jews as Pagans. They had been predicting this for years in all the books of prophesy.

A big difference is that Jesus actually existed, as documented by at least two historians at the time.

[Amichi]

*chuckle*

I think that anyone who believe in reincarnation would argue that only one person has done it.. and they might request proof besides.

[Arathin]

*does her "is highly lost and extremely confused so she isn't saying anything" dance. then goes outside to mediate under the moon*

[HLGStrider]

Since I don't believe in reincarnation that provides no hangups for me... however, that is a totally different type of rebirth. I'm not enough of a theologian to describe the difference, however. Reincarnation is not coming back in your old form but more powerful. It is actually being reborn as someone else on this earth. Being reborn as a Christian is also different, it is actually having Christ inplanted, or born, inside of you. Both cases are highly different.

Your call.
I hope you enjoy the moon, Arathin. It has been rather large lately...

[Arathin]

Yes it has been very large. Very good for rituals and rites. I can always hear it calling, even in the day.

[HLGStrider]

Oh well... I was just thinking about beauty in it...

[Arathin]

Oh it is beautiful isn't it, though! I love the moon. Always have thought it made night soo much more beautiful than day with its harsh sun.

[HLGStrider]

You sound like Juliet... "and pay no heed to the garish sun..."

[Arathin]

i had to memorize that whole speach by her for english class freshman year. please don't remind me of that torture.

[e.Blackstar]

Hello. I am a Christian (yay) and I am just here to say hi and if another debate starts heating up I'll be back to comment.

[Tar-Elenion]

Treyar, I think you need to fix whatever you are doing to cause your posts to keep extending of the side of the page (unless it is just my computer).

[Gandalf White]

It's not your computer, it's her location. ;)

[joxy]

Yes, it's already been irritating in another thread.
See if the system will let you spread it over two lines, and if not then cut it down.

[Arathin]

You can't put it on two lines... it just has to be cut down, that's all.

[Shireman D]

[QUOTE=HLGStrider]...
The idea being that Jesus defeated all death, conquered it, and became something greater than it. He wasn't reborn in the same way. He was reborn greater...

Reborn is innaccurate here; he rose again, that is the bonds of death were broken - he ceased to be dead.

What was revealed to the disciples was the full extent of his 'glory' which had been hinted at throughout his incarnate life, at the Transfiguration for example.

[HLGStrider]

Your wording is correct. I yeild to it. Bows out.

[King Aragorn]

Hello fellow Christians! I too, am a Christian, and proud of it!

[joxy]

Then spread the good news, all over Seattle, that shrine to science, and to Mr Gates!