Christians

[morning star]

ok, if you have any questions about Christians feel free to ask me.
or if your a Fellow Christian and just want to talk go ahead.

[Ancalagon]

Do you see any problems between Christianity and the promotion of the use of Sorcery, Magic or Wizardry?

[Legolas_lover12]

hey i am a christain. and i think there are a few more around here. i have seen a few bible verses in signatures.

~God Bless:D

[HLGStrider]

Hey, Angonclan...

If you mean can one be a witch and a Christian at the same time, I really don't think so becaue the process involves selling out to Satan.

Since all things are lawful for me to do but not necessarily good for me to do (I can't pinpoint the verse) I don't see any problem with watching or reading some magic stuff. If it is insulting towards your faith or sense of right and wrong you probably shouldn't be watching it and probably if you think about it you wouldn't want to.

I'm sorry no ones answered your question yet.

"Magic" comes in varrying levels.

The occult: getting powers from Satan. This is obviously bad and harmful.

Magic tricks: Come on. These are pranks.

Tolkien style powers: If you don't like them don't read them. I think they represent the difference between good and bad and they are beneficial.

Potter style almost farcical stuff: I wouldn't dwell on it and I wouldn't let little kids read it, but I think if one knows right from wrong it isn't that harmful. Just as long as it doesn't become an obsession. (Haven't read. saw the movie once... I don't know exactly what's in them. This is just from hearing about the books.)

I think being obsessed with one's image or pocket book is more harmful than reading fantasy.

The only fantasy series I quit reading for moral reasons was the Wheel of Time one... and that was because the characters were taking off their clothing far too often... nothing to do with magic.

[Ciryaher]

I define "sorcery" as power used for one's self or for evil in general. However, I also think some of the "magic" that is the essence of Faith can be used for God's work. Take some of the miracles of healing that have been seen. I don't call this "magic", but it is basically of a similar nature; God's strength which I believe is everywhere in the universe as an intangible, undetectible essence that can be used by those with the will to do good deed's in the name of our Lord.

I also think that the essence of evil is in the universe, and it is tapped by the darker elements of society in various ways for the purpose of all manner of evil.

[HLGStrider]

Cir's explanation beats mine...

[Maedhros]

The occult: getting powers from Satan. This is obviously bad and harmful.
Hmmmm. Actually it's not that simple. There are various currents that to christians would be considered Satanist.
There are some, for example, that use the concept of Left-Hand Path.
These persons are against the concept of an "external god". Those people who make their "stuff" is not to be confused with the Judaeo/Christian West has been called Satanism.
They, unlike the christians are a more intellectual demanding "religion", instead of the herd mentality that could be attributed to many christians.
Just a tought.

[Arathin]

I just want to tell you all from the start, although Cir already knows, I am wiccan (a witch) and am very proud to be one. Elgee, you are wrong. One doesn't have to sell out to Satan to be wiccan. (I will be using wiccan through all of this as it is the proper term for a witch or warlock.) Now I believe in God, although I am not Christain, and I am wiccan. I know some wiccans who have sold out to Satan, but I haven't. I only practice my magic to help people. Magic isn't evil. I believe the earth is a living being, Gaia, and I believe in a supreme God-figure whom I have taken the Jewish name for, Yahwah. I am sorry if any of you find it offence that I am wiccan, but I had to set it straight that not all who are wiccan are evil or have sold out/worship Satan. In fact, my apprentice is a good moral Christain and he is also training to be wiccan. I am sorry if you think I should now be burned at the stake, but that is just my opinion and two cents.

[Ancalagon]

Now that is a perspective I find interseting. Arathin, my wonderous Wiccan friend; how are are you viewed by Christians in New England, considering N.E.s shameful past? Can you be open about your beleifs and are locals tolerant? I am genuinely interested to know your thoughts.

[Arathin]

Ok GW I tried to pm you back but couldn't. Yes I am really truly wiccan. I cast spells and everything. Even have raise a dead spirit for someone so they could tell their husband they loved him as he died in a car crash.

Ancalagon, most people ignore NE's shameful wiccan past. In fact, almost all the people in Salem are wiccan and come out to tell people all the time. They, I doubt, are truly wiccan, but what can I say? Most of the time, religion doesn't come up in conversation. Most people don't mind. I have a lot of Christian and even Catholic, as I go to a Catholic school, friends, and they don't mind at all. They think it is great that I have a religion I feel confortable with and can accept. I have always had a hard time accepting some things about most religions, but not with wiccanism. I believe that all things on earth are part of the earth being, Gaia. I believe that God rules over us all, and that Jesus was God's son. I also believe that we are all God's children, but then I call up spirits and demons to do my bidding and help people. You have no idea how useful demons can be. I mean I created a form of demon and called them Whip Nymphs. They are amazingly useful as they obey only me and not the Demon Lords. They are the ones you have to watch out for. They are basically wiccans totally under Satan's power. Most of them are no longer truly living, but are sorta half-demon half-human and are immortal like that. Kinda like the Nazgul, I guess.

[morning star]

You can not be good witch.

[morning star]

continuation of my last post.

no one can be.

[HLGStrider]

I read in a fantasy dictionary that there are Black and White witches. Black sell out to Satan. White worship pagan Gods. I don't believe there can be a good witch, because Idolotary is a sin either way. Anyway, I see Wicans as misguided, but I don't think I could convince a wican of that. Anyway,
There can only be one God. Otherwise they would fight and we'd be back to ancient greece.

[Arathin]

I would love to know how you guys, non-wiccans, know so much about wiccanism that you can prove a wiccan wrong. How would you know that a wiccan can't be good? or that they can't worship one God? You are just like those who burnt my kind in the middleages. You judge without prove. Yeah I am wiccan! Yeah I worship one God almighty! Yeah I consent that Jesus is his son. How would you know what we wiccans believe if you aren't wiccan? We don't parade our religion around like Christians do. We practice in secret for fear of our own safety for the most part. People who judge first than think, like your little no witch can be good comment, they are the ones we have to hide from. People like that are the ones who hunted us down, exiled us from society, and burnt our home and us with them. I am sorry to those whom I have offened, but we do love peace and we only try to help, with the exception of the Demon Lords. The Demon Lords are the only ones who have sold out to Satan, and most of us believe in one God. I don't know a single pagan wicca. NOT ONE!!! hrmm.... sorry for that out burst, but that is like calling a Jew a Nazi, and if I ever find out some one did that! I will not hesitate to send demons after them, as I have a lot of Jewish blood in me, and was raised on what happened to my ancesters in Nazi torture camps. I am going to end this now before I really get ****ed off. You don't hear screaming ringing in your ears when you think about WWII and what happened to those poor Jewish people. I do!

[Ciryaher]

Morning star and HLG, to pass judgement on someone without full knowledge is called Predjudice. Taken to the extreme, you get things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, Joan d'Arc, the Ku Klux Klan, and Witch-Hunts.

And who are YOU to say who is good or bad? Only God/Allah/Yahweh/etc. Can pass judgement on what is right and wrong, good and bad. Live your live according to the teachings of Christ and don't worry about what others do just because it's not like what YOU do.

[Arathin]

Thank you, Cir. I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact as we all see above your post, I really didn't say it better.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Arathin
You are just like those who burnt my kind in the middleages.

First and foremost I must assert that religious tolerance is a must if this Forum is to survive. Therefore, I ask all members to use tact and respect when dealing with another member’s metaphysical beliefs or creeds. Any attacks on spiritual beliefs will be considered by this moderator at least as a personal attack on the member directly and will be promptly deleted.

Now that I have said that, I must respectfully point out a few problems I have with the above quote.
No Wiccans were burned in the Middle Ages, simply because there were no Wiccans in the Middle Ages. Wicca as a faith can only be traced back to the writings of Charles Leland (1824-1903) who wrote Aradia: Gospel of the Witches in 1899. In fact, Sir Gerald Gardner first coined the term Wicca in 1934. Wicca is a relatively modern faith/belief, although loosely based on neo-celtic mysticism, and can not be considered a direct link to mediaeval paganism. However, this is not to say that the belief system is faulty. So while Wicca may or may not feel a familiarity with the so-called witches burned during the reformation and counterreformations, they are not the directly related faiths. Religion is by its very nature a personal relationship. No religion or faith is in itself either good or evil that its practitioners make it so.

On a personal note to Arathin: You have found a belief system that helps you make sense of the universe and allow you to grow as a person, I think this is a truly good thing. Faith can be an amazing thing, and I applaud you for it. My own metaphysical beliefs lean more toward agnosticism with Taoist tendencies, and as such I consider all branches of faith simply extensions of each other.

Thank you for allowing me to ramble on like this
RD

[Arathin]

Hrmmm....

Wiccans are witchs and warlocks. Witchs and warlocks are wiccans. WE perfer the term wiccan as it is usable for both genders and is less covered in blood. This is how I and all wiccans I know feel about it, or would you perfer me to say This is how I and all witchs and warlocks I know feel about it.?

[Rangerdave]

Well I for one would hope that you speak only for yourself, Speaking for all Wiccans is like speaking for all males or all Anglos. It can't be done realistically. My point was simply that the word Wiccan was not used to describe any sort of worship or belief system prior to the late Victorian age. This is not a reproach or attack on anyone’s beliefs, simply an examination of the word in question. Or to put it simply, what you consider a Witch is not what the narrow minded such as Oliver Cromwell, the Spanish Inquisition or Pat Buccahannan would consider a Witch. (Although Cromwell thought the Pope was a witch and Pat still does) It’s really just a question of semantics.

I would like to kindly request that the term Wiccan be used for the modern associations to avoid confusion with the stereotypical crone/witch found in the likes of MacBeth.

Thanks
RD

[HLGStrider]

Truth is not realative
There is good and bad
Only one religion can be true and while that doesn't mean that the others are evil it does mean that they are wrong. Every religion has some truth in them, but only one has all the truth in it, and I believe that religion to be Christianity.
Yeah I am wiccan! Yeah I worship one God almighty! Yeah I consent that Jesus is his son. How would you know what we wiccans believe if you aren't wiccan?

Okay, if you believe that God is the Lord and that Jesus is His son then why aren't you a Christian... If you believe that Jesus died for your sins and because of Him you are forgiven and bound for heaven someday it sounds very much like you are. That's the basic principle.

I read about Witches in a dictionary of fantasy things which was actually very nice towards them (Saying they were useful to have around), though I do not know what the difference between Witches and Modern Wiccans is.

Now Arathin I think you are getting defensive. I have no proof about anything, but neither do you. I know that what you claim to do is forbidden in the Bible. I believe the Bible to be absolute truth (And I'm willing to suffer humiliation for it). I know that you see no harm in it. Personally I see some harm in doing anything that involves devilish forces, but you seem to be doing the modern day "earth force" thing. That is harmful in that it worships the created rather than the creator, but I don't think I would mind too much having one living next to me. I would just not give my approval to what they were doing.

There are a lot of things that I believe are wrong but would not outlaw. You can't outlaw adultry or other deviant sexual behavior. You can't outlaw lying, accept as a violation of contracts. You can't outlaw dishonoring ones parents.

Religious freedom is part of our country, and I'm glad it is. You can't force someone into your religion and trying puts you in the wrong.

Christians "push" their religion because they believe that someday we are all going to have a choice that will give us over to heaven or hell, and I can't think of anyone who I would willingly let slip away to hell if I had the choice. However, it isn't my choice. It is theirs. God isn't going to pull people to Heaven by the hair. If they want to go to hell He lets them. It's not a matter of doing anything. It's a matter of saying "okay, God, I'll let you adoupt me."

[Arathin]

I am not Christian. I refuse to be Christian. I have found too much corruption within its gilded walls. The pope, although it is said he has no worldly things, is the richest and most worshiped man on the face of this planet. If you Christians truly only worship God, then why don't you show it and ignore the priests. Religion is meant to be a personal connection between you and whatever heavenly (or hellish) force you put your faith in. No where in that doesn't it say that you need some extra "holy" man to talk to God for you and make God listen, then say that God is always listen so be a good little child of God and say twenty Hail Mary's and ten Our Father's. I don't need that bull. I am happy my religion just being me and God. No one else. No middle men or women. I don't need someone else to help me talk to God. I can talk to God myself. As for one true religion. I don't think any religion is totally right, but only satan-worship is totally wrong. Every religion has bad points and good points, but all organized religions, to me, are pathetic and a means of controlling the masses.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Truth is not relative
There is good and bad
Only one religion can be true and while that doesn't mean that the others are evil it does mean that they are wrong. Every religion has some truth in them, but only one has all the truth in it, and I believe that religion to be Christianity.


And which Christianity would that be? Is it Catholicism, Lutheranism, The Church of England? Or did the Gnostics and the Copts get it right? The only reason I ask is that Christianity is not a single religion, but a polyglot of many differing beliefs.

The main reason for this reply is that I find your above statement a bit elitist. Christianity contains all the truth only if viewed in a Christian context. I would argue that any religion contains the Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. I believe rather that all religions are reflections of the Truth. Some come closer than others, but none is absolute.

As for your assertion that there is good and there is bad, well of course there is. But good and evil are human qualities and the goodness of badness of a religion is inherent in its faithful, not in its nature. There are evil Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Christians, but this does not make Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or Christianity evil. When examining the pure metaphysics of faith, good and evil are only differing points of view. So I ask you, if you find a particular religion unsavory, do not say that it is wrong. Instead simply say that it is wrong for you, or in your opinion you find its teachings unacceptable.

Originally posted by Arathin
If you Christians truly only worship God, then why don't you show it and ignore the priests. Religion is meant to be a personal connection between you and whatever heavenly (or hellish) force you put your faith in. No where in that doesn't it say that you need some extra "holy" man to talk to God for you and make God listen, then say that God is always listen so be a good little child of God and say twenty Hail Mary's and ten Our Father's. I don't need that bull.

Your right of course, there is no absolute need for priests or preachers. A good Christian can remain so without ever setting foot inside a church. But I feel that you have missed the point. Priests are the storytellers and educators of the Church. The place of the priest is not to enforce or command. His or her mission is to aid those seeking the truth. Every religion, even your own, has people who are there to help the ignorant find enlightenment. Think of the analogy this way. Assuming that someone can read, he or she can walk into any library and educate themselves all alone without anyone's help; but if this same person joins a class of people seeking the same educational goals, the experience is generally easier and more effective.
My point is that every faith and belief has traditions that others find distasteful. Please refrain from calling them "Bull". They may be unnecessary, but millions find these traditions comforting. Simply state that this system does not work for you, and allow others to find their solace where they may.

----------------------
Now, having said all that, may I applaud the both of you for discussing this subject like adults. It does my heart proud that neither of you has felt the need to resort to name-calling or slanderous and derogatory speech.

Thank you
RD

[Arathin]

I am a writer. Writers never lower themselves to name-calling, slandering, nor anything of the like. Further in your handling this like adults comment, most adults simply cannot handle anything in such a manner as this has been mantained. Most don't believe that any discrepancy is possible without one being totally in the wrong and the other being completely in the right. Hence, the name-calling, slandering, and so on, but in mine eyes tis much different from this. Neither is completely right or wrong. Yet both are completely right and wrong. All at the same time. Chew on that for a moment as you think about anything in your life, fore that is the oldest truth known to man-kind, nay to all of existance. This pre-dates existance, if such a thing even exists.

[Rangerdave]

Hear Hear!
Well Said!

It's like I always say, "Just because something aint factual, don't mean it aint true."

RD

[HLGStrider]

And which Christianity would that be? Is it Catholicism, Lutheranism, The Church of England? Or did the Gnostics and the Copts get it right? The only reason I ask is that Christianity is not a single religion, but a polyglot of many differing beliefs

Read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. Yes, we differ on a lot of things, and I don't care about most of them, but there are basic underlying truths in all of them. If they don't stick to these basic truths they aren't Christian.

Arathin, as I am not Catholic I couldn't care less about the pope. Also I don't go to church. My parents have never found a church they like and all in all I never have either. Christianity to me is the knowledge that I am God's child. That anytime I want to I can speak with Him and though He may not give me what I want, I believe he will give me what is best for me in the end... even if that may be death or pain. We as humans cannot see what the best is.

Also I believe Good and Bad are moral laws. Not human made ones but ones that are stronger and older than anything we have. Again I got that From Lewis.

[morning star]

I am sorry my past reply, i did not meen it to be smarty-pants.
A person very close to had passed away, but i know it's not a good reason. please dont hold my dumb mistakes against other Christians.
To show you i mean i'm sorry, i shan't post or visit the forum any longer.

love in Christ,
MS

[HLGStrider]

Geez... I can't even remember what she said...

[Ancalagon]

Morning Star, there is no need to leave the forum or refuse to post any further. This is a place for debate, if you make comments to others that seem unpalitable, then you can make an apology if they offend. I am sure the other members are big enough to forgive and move on. If you feel strongly, just be sure to support your arguement with facts and not speculation.
Stick around and enjoy the forum, you won't find better on the other side of the fence.................anyhoo, apparently the grass is always browner over there;)

[Maeglin]

hey i'm a christian,
arathin its not that your not a good person, you could be one of the nicest and friendliest people on earth, but what your doing is wrong, you can't be wiccan and really believe in god like you say, unless maybe your god is satan. and your tricks about using for good, you might think you are but that stuff such as raising peoples spirits, you don't actually think that worked do you? anyway ancalagon and HGLstrider, i know some christians(including myself) who have read books such as Harry Potter, do you think thats wrong for me to do, i know that its all a story and magic is safe, and i can tell whats right from wrong between the stories and christianity, someone please respond:)

[Ancalagon]

Ok, this is my personal opinion; no-one elses, just mine. If you disagree with it, fair enough, but it is simply my views;

If one is a Christian, and that particular person chooses to read books that contain elements of magick, or reference to practices of Black Arts, sorcery, or similar, then that individual has nothing to feel guilty about. However, if he or she feels inclined to begin practicing these arts then they are directly contravening the teachings of the bible they profess to follow. This means that they cannot equate the two, therefore they are sinning against God.

If someone is not a Christian and they practice witchcraft, then they also have nothing to feel guilty about, because they have not commited themselves to the teachings of God or the Christian faith.

Whether these practices are right or wrong is not for us to decide. However, if you truly believe them to be wrong, then aside from explaining the teachings of your particular religion, there is little you can do but pray for them. I say this because the bible teaches,'before you remove the speck of dust from someone elses eye, remove the plank from your own.' This means that you cannot judge or correct someone until you are fully cleared of your own indescretions. No-one on this planet is in a position to cast dispersions on anothers practices, because no-one is free from indescretion or sin.

If you know right from wrong, then apply it to your own life. Christians readily clothe themselves in the 'armour of faith' and then begin to wage battle using the bibles teachings that suit them to attack anothers way of life. Yet it seems many ever forget the teachings apply to themselves also; 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone.' I have always liked these words, because they epitomise everything that is wrong with the methods employed by Christians as the set out to 'save' others from the clutches of Satan.

Explain first why your faith is important to you, not why what others do is sinful and evil. None of us have the right to judge another for none of us are righteous enough or pious enough to do so.

With reference to reading Harry Potter or The Lord of the Rings from a christian perspective; read on, enjoy but do not try to justify what you are reading by applying the laws of your faith to them. By this I mean, enjoy the books for what they are, but remember that over anything else, your commitment is to your God. If you acknowledge him first, then you have proved your worth. God will not judge you by what you read, but by your actions. If your actions are made in acknowledgement and commitment to God, then you are doing what he asks.

[Arathin]

MS please you don't have to not post on here anymore... please I am sorry I exploded because I think it is what I said that got you upset. Please don't go.

Glorfindel1187, how do you know what is and isn't true? How do you know that I can't really call up spirits or demons? How do you know that I can't worship God, not Satan, and be Wiccan? Are you Wiccan? Are you God? Are you me? Were you there when I did call up that man's spirit? Were you there when I created the first Whip Nymph? People thinking that all Witchs and Warlocks or Wiccans are Satan-worshipers and nothing else or just plain frauds is one stereotype I will not stand for. Your religion is between you and God. Mine is between me and God. So leave me to my ONE GOD-WORSHIPPING WICCANISM IN PEACE, please? And stop stereotyping us!!!!! In fact stop stereotyping all people.

[HLGStrider]

An: I like what you say. Though I believe there are certain moral rules a society must follow in order for people to be able to bear each other's presence, we as Christians must be careful not to go around screaming at people. I personally believe that if you can truly bring someone to be a Christian Christ will start working within them and clean up whatever problems they let Him get to. Still I think a friendly warning to any CHRISTIAN who is doing wrong is good. There is a Bible verse about not worrying about the evil of people of the world, since to them it is not evil and they do not have God to guide them. However, if a brethren sins it is our responsiblity to caution Him.

Arathin, cool down for gosh sakes. What you are doing is forbidden in the Bible, though if you are not a Christian I don't expect you to feel guilty about it, so we can say it is wrong all we want and you can sit there and growl at us and everyone will feel self righteous and happy. :rolleyes:

[Helena]

I study comparative religion and we define organized religion and magic to be different aspects of the same thing: a human being's willingness to believe in something greater, be it God, gods, spirits, energy etc. There is nothing Satanic about wiccas or magic because one religion can't be defined through other religions. On the other hand there is nothing false in Christianity just because they have their churches and popes (this coming from a former catholic...). To sum things up: you can't use the concepts and ideas of Christianity, or wiccas, to define other people's beliefs. They are conceptually different, and yet they are the same.

Just my two cents ;).

[Maeglin]

arathin i'm sorry if I upset you, i wasn't trying to, and if i stereotyped you I didn't realize it, I never said that you worshipped satan.

Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on what i said towards the end of my last post, I'd appreciate any kind of reply,thanks.:confused:

[Ancalagon]

Helena, as much as I welcome you and wish you well in the forum, I have to say, that stance is simply sitting middle of the fence! You really need to clarify a number of points before adding a generalisation such as this. For someone who studies comparative religion, you really need to be more objective!

[Walter]

Somehow I can't help feeling that this thread is taking the same road as the "Finding god in ..." thread a while after it started...

Originally posted by Rangerdave
No Wiccans were burned in the Middle Ages, simply because there were no Wiccans in the Middle Ages. Wicca as a faith can only be traced back to the writings of Charles Leland (1824-1903) who wrote Aradia: Gospel of the Witches in 1899. In fact, Sir Gerald Gardner first coined the term Wicca in 1934. Wicca is a relatively modern faith/belief, although loosely based on neo-celtic mysticism, and can not be considered a direct link to mediaeval paganism.Well, that's a very fine hair you're trying to split here, my friend. According to what I have been told from the Wiccans I know and according to Scott Cunningham or J.E. Trayer (aka Silver Ravenwolf) Wiccans see themsleves as "philosophical and spiritual heirs" of the paganistic and shamanistic religions. Declaring that "No Wiccans were burned in the Middle Ages, simply because there were no Wiccans in the Middle Ages." sounds rather cynical to me, I mean they were burned, but they didn't call themselves wiccans by that time. And I wonder if it made a big difference to those that were burned, that they were burned under the wrong label...

The only consolation I could give to Arathin is that the representatives of the catholic church in the MiddleAges - unfortunately I have to consider them my kind - prosecuted, tortured and eventually burned everyone who they did not feel comfortable with: Pagans as well as some Franciscan monks, Galileo Galilei (for spreading the "lie" the world was NOT flat, but a globe), Martin Luther, etc. to name but a few.

What I feel we needed - on this forum as well in the world generally - is understanding of each other. Not tolerating - for tolerance IMO is the position of the strong towards the weak (to tolarate: to allow or endure...) but understanding and accepting each other's beliefs as equally justified as the own beliefs. A roman catholic for example is not necessarily a superior human being than a buddhist, muslim, agnostic or an atheist.

Religion per se - or a lack thereof - does not make one human being superior or inferior than another one. It's the person that counts, not the beliefs. And in addition to Anc's statement "God will not judge you by what you read, but by your actions. I would like to say: God will not even judge you by the religion you belong to, s/he will judge you by the human being you are...

P.S. Sometimes I wonder which religion god belongs to - if any...

[HLGStrider]

I would like to say: God will not even judge you by the religion you belong to, s/he will judge you by the human being you are...

This leads up to all sorts of problems... Let's see... What's are standard?

Let's start with an easy standard. BE NICE TO PEOPLE.

If you be nice to people God will judge you with mercy...

What exactly is nice? How many of us are always nice? When is nice enough?

Okay... Anyway, let's change the standard a bit. If you read the Bible you get a set of standards written down clear as day... problem is they are a tad bit hard to follow. I know I've dishonored my father and mother and lied before. I think once I took the Lords name in vain... dang... This isn't working.

Let's say there is no standard... Gosh... what's the point to having a God at all. If anyone can get into Heaven that means we can go up and spend all the time we want with Hitler and Jack the Ripper...

Well, then let's heighten the standard. NO MASS MURDERING!!!

Okay. Anyone can do that. We still don't need God...

But that's the whole point. We were made by God to need Him.
God wants us to be His Children, so He made us and put us in a garden. At this point we were God's creations, not His children. That is why He gave us one rule. One oh so easy to follow rule... DON'T EAT THIS FRUIT. If humans followed this rule they were saying "Yes, God, I love you enough to obey your commandments. You are my God, and I will follow You." In return they would have an idealic lifestyle with no pain or death...

You know how that turned out.

We were cast outside into a world with pain and death because that is what we chose.

God looks around. He made men and gave them everything they could possibly desire. Still they did not believe that they needed Him. To convince them that they did He gave them a list of rules and said "Follow these and I'll let you come back to my garden after you die."

Of course, no mortal can keep these rules and men spent a long time figuring this out.

Then He does something that no one expected, though He'd been warning them about it for centuries through prophecies. He sent His son down to earth. The Son said "Follow me and we will turn this earth into the Garden again." The men mocked Him, beat Him, and crucified Him.

Thankfully God was expecting this, and He brought Christ back. However, the death of one so perfect, so true, so good threw everything into a new respective. The curtain that kept common humans out of the holy chambers of the Temple was torn. We were now all able to reach out and grab the chance we'd turned asside so many times. By reaching out to God, by allowing Christ to enter you and making yourself really His Child, by the simple act of saying yes you could ensure yourself a free trip to the Garden.

Considering what God had to put His son through and how many chances He gave us, I'd say that He has more mercy than we can comprehend. He will judge us for what sort of people we are. There are two sorts of people. The ones who say "Yes, take me in" and the ones who say "No, I don't need You, I'll do it my own way."

It's your choice.

As for Glorfindel's question, I agree with Angonclan.

[HLGStrider]

To do some more "hair splitting" no witches, wiccas, or warlocks were killed during the Salem witch hunts. All of those who were hung protested their innocence 'til the end. Some people did confess and they were all set free after some prison time.

The witch hunts were started by a group of girls, all under twenty, who started wandering around with strange symptoms, mumbling to themselves, falling on the floor kicking and screaming... things like that. One of them blamed her symptoms on the black slave of one of the families. This woman had been purchased from I think an island in the gulf of Mexico. She did actually claim to have some magic powers. She was never hung, however. I believe she was eventually sold away from the town and disappeared into history.

Once they started these girls got a taste of power and accused hundreds of people. Normally those they accused were anyone who had done them a bad turn, someone they felt was too prosperous, and anyone who seemed a little strange.

Other people got into it, and it became the way to get the property of the neighbor who refused to sell or destroy someone you didn't like.

Some people confessed, but as I said they weren't harmed. Under twenty were actually killed before the people started realizing they'd arrested half the colony. People started ignoring the "bewitched girls" people were freed from jail, and order restored itself.

[Rangerdave]

You know HGL, its funny that you should raise the example of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. This is one of the primary reasons I left Christianity and adopted a more eastern philosophy.

God, our Father, creates Adam and Eve and provides for their every want. They are free to go and do as they please in Paradise provided they do not partake of the fruit of the forbidden tree. A tree that is blatantly displayed right smack dab in the middle of the garden.

Somehow this smells of a setup to me.

If God is the Heavenly Father, then that position should come with some parental responsibility attached. Why put such a dangerous tree on public display. Every parent should know better than to keep the things that could hurt their children out of the reach of little hands. Why should the Tree of Knowledge be any different?

The way I see it, if Biblical accounts are true (which they very well may be), then the apple was left available expressly for Eve and later Adam to eat. How could it possibly be otherwise? If the fruit were a test for man, I would have to come to the conclusion that we passed it. Satan may have persuaded Eve, but she and her mate made their own decisions.

Look at the possible outcomes,
1: man avoids the fruit and remains a happy but ignorant entity in the garden.
2: man gains knowledge, and in doing so, independence. No longer is he bound by divine law. Now he is free to accept or reject it in accordance with his own beliefs.

Without the knowledge of good and evil, of what possible use is humanity. Granted, we would never know evil in the likes of Hitler or Stalin, but by the same standard we would never know the sublime good of St. Augustine, or Plato or Shakespeare.

-------------------
Now that I have rattled on, I feel it is time to get off my soapbox. In no way should this post be considered an attack on Christian belief or Christians in general. I admire those who have faith, regardless of what that faith may be. This is simply an attempt to show one of the reasons why the Judeo-Christian Mythos does not fulfil any of my spiritual needs.

As a final not I leave you with this thought.

God, be it Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Krishna or any other, may help guide you on your path through the world; but he cannot decide your path for you. Only you control your own mind. In the final analysis, the only true sin is in hurting others.

RD

[Arathin]

We are all ourselves and we all make our own decisions. Now look her HLG. Have any of you Christians actually sat down and read the entire Bible? I mean from cover to cover, not piece by piece, jumping around? Well I have. I was exteremely bord one religion class and it was all I had to do. So for 90 mins I sat and read the Bible. Then I found it was more like a good book, so I kept reading. I read the whole thing, OT and NT, that day. I mean cover to bloody cover. I discovered one thing that day. Christian is based on the Bible, and the Bible is nothing more to me than a good book. I found so many pieces of every other religion in it that I actually laughed out loud in the hall when I had finished it. You know how I looked at Jesus in that moment? Jesus is wiccan. He is a warlock of God. You know how I came up with that? Well he raised the dead, a wiccan feat; he performed "maricals", he was just doing magic tricks. I mean that is just how I looked at him. You can look at it anyway you want.

[Maeglin]

I guess you could look at it like that Arathin, that Jesus was a warlock, but he did all his miracles in the name of God, many wiccans say what they do is in the name of Satan, since they sell out to Satan. But some, such as yourself, have not sold out to Satan, and you say your performing your works for the good of others, therefore your not doing them in the name of Satan, but doing good things is the type of thing Jesus would do, and you say your also not doing them in the name of God, so your not doing them in anyone's name, just for the good of others, okay. And when you say that Jesus raising the dead is a wiccan feat, shouldn't you be calling yourself something else since he did it first and say that what you do is not wiccan, but some other name relating to Jesus?

Just my two cents, what do you think?

[HLGStrider]

Only a good book if you read it as such. Yes, but did you ever think how it would effect your life? Did you ever think to believe what it said?

I've read a lot of the Bible, but truthfully not the whole thing. I have a heck of a time finishing things sometimes...

As for RD... You hit exactly on the why. God wanted us to think and make a choice. Humans were not unthinking before biting the fruit. They just didn't think about evil. Evil only existed within the snake that used your argument of "becoming great" to convince them to bite. In many ways it was a set up. God wanted to be loved not because it was the only choice but because they chose.
You said (I'm doing this because when I quote mid post it makes me get all messed up...)
Look at the possible outcomes,
1: man avoids the fruit and remains a happy but ignorant entity in the garden.
2: man gains knowledge, and in doing so, independence. No longer is he bound by divine law. Now he is free to accept or reject it in accordance with his own beliefs

Your first is not totally right. He was not ignorant. He had God at his fingertips. Imagine, being able to ask the Creator of the universe anything you wanted! Adam was probably a pretty wise fellow until he fell.
Do you deny that man is bound by divine laws? He is. He wasn't bound by any law besides don't eat bad apples before. Now he is bound by ten very hard to follow laws. In the next few centuries after eating the fruit men were introduced to murder, adultry, and deception. They didn't choose to follow the laws.

This world lives under the faulty assumption that sin is something God has denied from us out of vindictiveness. That if we were allowed to lie, steal, and have sex as we pleased we would be truly happy. That guilt is something forced upon us by something unnatural to us. That isn't true. These laws are there to protect us and others from us. Sin can never bring true joy. Temporary gratification, yes, joy no. After awhile if you do it enough it will stop feeling like sin. How does that go? A slightly bad man know he is bad. A completely bad man thinks he is very good.

A warlock of God? Come on, Arathin. The difference between magic and miracles is a small one by our modern standard. I'd say it is where the power comes from. I suppose you could say that. So where are you getting your power from? Only the God kind is good.

[Arathin]

Why do you people keep up with the prejugdes? Most Wiccans proform their magic in the name of good. I never said I don't do magic in the name of God. To me doing anything for the good of others is doing it in God's name. So therefore I do my magic in God's holy name, Yahweh. To me Jesus was the first warlock. I am merely following in his footprints. I am following his religion, in my eyes. Just as you are, in your eyes. We both follow the same Jesus and the same God, only in different ways. You follow the religion you believe Jesus was, and I follow the religion I believe Jesus was. In truth, I think there is no one true religion. All religions are right, true, and just in God's eye. Religion is just your way of expressing your love of God. He is open to all of us and tries to bring us back to him constantly. We just go to Him on different paths, but they all lead to the same place, Him.

[HLGStrider]

No... Jesus is the way the truth in the life and no one come through the Father except through Him.
God is forever trying to draw us to him.

I have no idea what you are doing for sure Arathin. Still I have a lot of misgivings about it. I wish you'd be careful.

[Ciryaher]

HLG, I can't help but ask if you are closely reading Arathin's posts:

We both follow the same Jesus and the same God, only in different ways.

and you respond with:

No... Jesus is the way the truth in the life and no one come through the Father except through Him.

Just wondering about that...
-----------------------

I agree that "sorcery" (being an evil art for one's personal or evil's gain) is against God's laws, but why should healing and helping be a sin, as long as you do it to be a good Helper. I can't see how helping people and doing it in the name of God and with God's power can be bad at all.

[Helena]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Helena, as much as I welcome you and wish you well in the forum, I have to say, that stance is simply sitting middle of the fence! You really need to clarify a number of points before adding a generalisation such as this. For someone who studies comparative religion, you really need to be more objective!

Tell me what points you wish me to clarify and I will. In what way was I being subjective? I believe, as a student studying religion, that all religions are equal, and all aspects of religions are beautiful and complex. Religion is the basis of culture, it directs us towards social behaviour and it's foundation is in our evolution. It may not be objective from the point of view of one religion, but it is objective in science.

One of the basic rules of comparative religion is to hold religion and culture in the highest respect. I sometimes find it difficult, since saying what you believe to be true about religions is offensive to some. I'm not implying that it is offensive to you :). I'm different from most of my student friends, since I do believe in God to some extent, and I believe that the best way for me to reach God is through Christianity, the product of the culture I grew up in.

[Maeglin]

Arathin you say that all religions are right in God's eyes, so are you saying that bin-Laden's extremist Islam is right in God's eyes and he has no problem with it, I don't think so.

[ReadWryt]

Writers never lower themselves to name-calling, slandering, nor anything of the like.

...someone never saw the Terry Prattchet thread...heheheheh. As I recall Paul mentions, and I will have to find out where it is later because one of my roomates has my NIV Study Bible, he states that "..divination is a sin akin to Pride in God's eyes..". This is, as I said, to my recallection and might well be paraphrased, but then how much of a book translated from Greek isn't?

Bin Laden's Islam isn't Extremist, it's literal. There is a difference. When the Khoran tells people to "Kill the Infidels" some of them take that to mean just what it says, it's just that like the doctrine of so many faiths some muslims do not pay attention to ALL of the text of the doctrine...kind of like the Christian Football players of say Notre Dame University who pay no attention to the dictum in Leviticus against touching the skin of a dead pig, or the way that Liberal Jews will sit on a chair that a woman having her period has sat on without it being cerimonally cleansed by a Rabbi...In this case I'm GLAD that so many faiths use their doctrines as Moral Chinese menus and only choose 1 from collumn A and 2 from collumn B...

[Walter]

Helena, no offense meant, but your statement that you "believe in god to some extent" needed some clarification I think - for it easily can be mistaken to sound like "being pregnant to some extent"...

[Elu Thingol]

Arathin you say that you worship God and yet you do not believe in his word? The bible is the word of God, if you do not believe this than the god your worshiping isn´t the true God but satan in disguise. He can appear as an angel of light but he is the greatest of all liars. I fear you have fallen into a deep snare. Please remember this verse that I will give you

Turn from evil, do good, seek peace and pursue it! (Psalms 34:14)

[HLGStrider]

I'll answer Cir First...

I wasn't answering Arathin's final line but her line that said

We just go to Him on different paths, but they all lead to the same place, Him.

I should have used the quote thing, but it often makes my posting go weird and I only use it in rare circumstances. I figured it would be obvious that that was what I was up to.

Glorfindel, I don't think that using the Laden example is a good idea. Every religion has a few bad apples. It's not the men that are in the religion that makes the difference to me but the truth of the religion. The reason I have a problem with all the justifying of Islam is not that I think Mouslams are bad people, it's because I think their religion is not true. It doesn't make any difference to me what sort of people they are (In religion that is. It matters very much whether the person I sit next to in a plane is a hijacker or one of the good sort...).

Personally I take the Bible literally, but I see a rift in it... a change if you will. There is a place in the Bible where the rules change. The laws in Judges and other old Testament books are harsh, to say the least. Adulteresses were supposed to be stoned. Then along comes a man who says "Throw the stone if you yourself are sinless."
In other words, I don't believe that Christianity should be judged by the Old Testament. If it were it could be considered a highly violent religion.

Knowing that Judaism uses the Old Testament as the main part of its Bible, this may sound a little harsh on them, however, I think they may have other books and I haven't read those and I'm not going to comment on the violence of that relgion anymore than I'm going to on the violence of Islam when I haven't read the Koran. I'm not saying that I believe either of these religions are "a way to God", I'm just not condemning them as "evil"... which now a days normally means that we should do things to ban them and persecute them.

Many of the Laws in the Old Testament were made, again, for self protection. These are the ones on Cleanliness and what to eat. For instance all the forbidden foods are ones that easily transmit disease (Pork for instance). Now-a-days these foods are sanatized very well, and I doubt that if these sanatation processes were available back then they would have been forbidden.

[Ciryaher]

Who is to say what religion is right? Every religion believes that it is the true one, so what makes Christianity the "only way to salvation"? Why not Islam? What about Judaism, Hinduism, Baha'i, Sikhism, Buddhism, and the thousands of other religions, denominations, sects, and cults? Who is to say that they are right, and Christians are wrong, or vice versa?

[HLGStrider]

Cir, why did you think it was called Faith?

I cannot prove that Christianity is right. There have been Archelogical discoveries that prove parts of the Bible are true. There is more historical proof that Jesus lived than that Shakespeare lived... There are a lot of little things like that that I could bring up. Lewis, in his book Mere Christianity, provided a lot of logical reasons to believe in Christianity, but I don't think they'd be enough for a hardened atheist...

Truthfully I have put my faith in Jesus Christ. I believe I did the right thing or else I wouldn't have done it. It may turn out that I am wrong someday, and that will be bad for me, but I have faith that it won't.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
Arathin you say that all religions are right in God's eyes, so are you saying that bin-Laden's extremist Islam is right in God's eyes and he has no problem with it, I don't think so.

First off, the extremist views of Bin Laden and his Whabbi followers have about as much to do with Islam as the KKK has to do with Christianity. In both cases, the leaders pervert religion to justify their own hatreds.

The Prophet did instruct his followers to clear the region of the infidels, but he made it expressly clear just who the infidels were. Infidel in its historical meaning is the Animists and polytheists of Northern Africa and the Arabian coast. Christians and Jews are not considered infidels by the vast majority of Muslims. In fact, the Prophet referred to them as Dhimmi; which translates as "People of the Book". While they were considered to be of lesser status than True Muslims, they were to be protected and delt with honor and fairness. Only those who are not of the Book are considered Infidels.

So as you can see, Bin Laden is actually acting in direct violation of the words of the Prophet.

Just thought I would add my two cents.
RD

[HLGStrider]

Well, anyway, this thread has gone in some weird directions. I believe it was started simply as a socialization place for meeting people who share some common beliefs (With also some hope of witnessing what with the "do you have any questions" addition.). I don't mind the turn it takes.

The biggest problem I have with it is my own reaction to it. I think my arguments are all good and I believe what I have said to be for the most part right... However, I find I get awful self righteous about it at times, if you know what I mean...

Truthfully I just wanted to say that I know I am not naturally this logical and I think that a lot of this... perhaps all of what is true and makes sense, has been God speaking through me... The reason I am doing this was because on the prayer thread someone complimented me for saying what I have been saying and I found myself feeling way too good about it in a bad way. I don't want to get puffed up here, and this is sort of a confession.

HLGStrider is actually an illogical, over emotional, self centered person. The fact that I have been doing well enough to be complimented or that I haven't broken off into Emotional ranting is a testimony to something much stronger than I am. Thank you.
HLG

[Arathin]

To Elu Thingol, I don't believe that the Bible is God's word b/c it was written my men, and that Psalms passage has no affect on me as I do not worship Satan. I admit that I have seen her, yes her, but I do not worship her. I worship God. You cannot always see the difference, but you can *feel* it. I worship Jesus as God's son, and the path to God. But I think you are all twisting what I am saying. Just take it as I word it, k? I believe in Jesus and I believe in God, the one true God, just like you do, but I don't *express* my beliefs the same way you do. I express my beliefs differently. I do not think that God really cares how we *express* our beliefs. I think He only cares that we believe, that we have faith. I think no matter how you express your beliefs, as long as it is good and just and in His almighty name, He will love you and protect you. Notice I said express your beliefs. I think every religion is right and true. They are all just different ways of expressing ones beliefs. Just like say, personallities. We all are different than each other, so why would we all have exactly the same religious expressions. We all make different choices, and so have different ways of expressing mostly the same beliefs. And the next person who says I worship Satan is gonna get it, as I don't. None of you are me, and so none of you can tell what I do worship. Trust my word. I have seen God and I have seen Satan. Both look about the same, but I can feel the difference.
Also I would love to know why you all think Satan is bad. Now don't think I worship her, but I mean come on. In reading the Bible, I read, "God looked down on all he had created and saw that it was good." I am always being told that God is good, and God created everything, so everything is good. Well God created Satan, and if you read the Bible you will see that, unlike Humans, Angels don't have freewill. So Satan is the way God created her. She hasn't changed since the day God made her the way she is. Please don't think this means I worship her, as I really truely don't. It is just an observation that I made in reading your Christian Bible.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Arathin
Well God created Satan, and if you read the Bible you will see that, unlike Humans, Angels don't have freewill. So Satan is the way God created her. She hasn't changed since the day God made her the way she is.Somehow I doubt that Angels don't have freewill. But anyway, this brings us back to Tolkien and the part where Ilúvatar created Melkor. And Melkor...was he evil by will or evil by nature?

[Arathin]

In the Bible, now i forget where as i read the whole thing in one day, it does state that, "God had given Humans, his special creation, their own freewill. Some Angels were jealous of this as they had been given no such great gift of choice." that is what it said because I memorized the passage, but forgot where it was.

[Ciryaher]

Perhaps the "freewill" is the choice to arrive at the End in our own way, while the Angels are restricted, and they cannot acheive the End in their own way *shrugs*

Many religions acknowledge the existence of Jesus of Nazareth (Islam mentions a prophet name Ye'shua of Nazarene, the Jews of course consider him a prophet, Baha'i considers him a Messenger of God, and so on). All of these religions believe in one true God, and they all believe that Jesus existed as a prophet of some sort. This leads me to believe that all monotheistic religions that worship a single power that represents omnipotence, omnipresence, and all other omni-'s are all basically true and that they are in the Correct. I find it hard to believe that God would damn his own people (the Jews) because they didn't accept the Jesus that came 2000 years ago.

[HLGStrider]

Well God created Satan, and if you read the Bible you will see that, unlike Humans, Angels don't have freewill. So Satan is the way God created her.

"She" if you'd like to call her that (I personally believe that Angel's do not have "sexes" the way we do... if you know what I mean..) went bad.

The higher and better a thing can be the worse it can go when it falls. A cow that goes "bad" is not very bad because it wasn't very good to begin with. A man who goes bad is very bad because he had the potential to be very good. An angel, a being with great powers, can go very bad indeed. In fact Lucifer decided to become God and tried to do so and then was thrown out along with all his rebellious friends.

Actually Cir, it is Biblically prophecized that during Christ's reign on earth the Jewish nation will pretty much all be saved and come to recognize him as their messiah. I am not an expert on prophesy and I can't give you the verse, but I'm pretty sure that it is in there.

the Jews of course consider him a prophet,

Impossible. Jesus on his time on earth defied half their rules. He made direct claims to be God. He forgave people's sins (something only a God to do). As Lewis put it if Jesus was not really God's son then he was not a good man. He was a lunitic and a liar. I have never heard the Jew's acknowledge him to be a prophet, though I have used the word "Good man" applied before.

I read a book by Lee Strobel entitled "The Case for Christ" which went over all of the arguments against Jesus as the son of God (Or as someone who actually existed) pretty thouroughly. You know there was a council of men who went over the Bible awhile ago and took out everything that they didn't believe Jesus had really said. What remained was about one/tenth or so. They took out anything that implied his own deification and anything else they didn't like. For instance, the only thing that remained in the Lord's Prayer was "Our Father". According to the experts Mr. Strobel talked to even in the little that remained there was still proof that Jesus was claiming to be something a lot bigger than a man.

If I were a great philosophical leader I wouldn't be claiming to be God. Not even Buddah made such remarks (From what little I know of that religion, which I admit is not much.). That makes Jesus either what He said He was or a complete lunatic. Personally I believe Him.

This leads me to believe that all monotheistic religions that worship a single power that represents omnipotence, omnipresence, and all other omni-'s are all basically true and that they are in the Correct.

The Jewish God and the Christian God are undoubtably the same. I have heard some differences outlined between Allah and Jehovah, if you'd like to call Him that. Anyway it doesn't matter. It isn't the belief in a god that matters. It is the willingness to accept God's one and only way into Heaven, to take Jesus's hand and let Him pull you into heaven.

[Maeglin]

concerning satan being good I was going to say the same thing HLG said but beat me to it, satan was once good, and was once Lucifer, but was thrown out. thats all

[Arathin]

Heh? I just said it was an observation. That is all. Whatever. I don't really care one way or another, as I refuse to worship my own mother. :rolleyes:

I think Ciryaher makes very good points. (He usually seems to when we talk. I wonder why?)

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by HLGStrider

"The higher and better a thing can be the worse it can go when it falls. A cow that goes "bad" is not very bad because it wasn't very good to begin with. A man who goes bad is very bad because he had the potential to be very good. An angel, a being with great powers, can go very bad indeed. In fact Lucifer decided to become God and tried to do so and then was thrown out along with all his rebellious friends.


What piece of work is a man, how noble in reason,
how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how
express and admirable, in action how like an angel,
in apprehension how like a god.

Hamlet: Scene II act 2

I think that about says it al.

RD

[HLGStrider]

Arathin I'd say you think Cir makes good points because you agree with him... :rolleyes: Truthfully that's the way it is for me most of the time... though I can say someone made a good point that is also a bad point because it was wrong but it was good because it was well stated... this is pointless!!!

Man may be a great work but he doesn't exactly have angelic powers.

[Elu Thingol]

Arathin you say follow the one true God and yet you say you are not a Christian. That is impossible for the definition of a Christian is one who follows Christ, Jesus, God, etc.

Chris·tian Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj. 1.Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Posted by RD
What piece of work is a man, how noble in reason,
how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how
express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god.

Man was made in the image of God

[Elu Thingol]

Obviously I believe God is Christ

[Elu Thingol]

I believe that the definition of a christian is : One who has a relationship with God

Believing in God and knowing him personally are two different things

Anyway Arathin said he believed in Jesus, and he said he believed Jesus was sent by God.

I think he just took a wrong turn at following what Jesus said.

[Arathin]

Look I don't have to be Christian to follow God. Can you all just stop critising me? Yes this is a very intellicual conversation, and it is well based, to some extent, but why am I the one always having to come up with stuff to prove you wrong? You know adsolutly everything I have said so far, I have recalled sitting at my comp. I haven't gone to one other thing than my own head for anything.





By the way, I am a she.

[HLGStrider]

The reason the burden of proof is on you... though I don't think it really is with all the challanges both sides have recieved... but the reason that you feel like it is on you is that you crashed our party, if you don't mind me saying so.

Sure there was an invitation to ask questions, but I think you came here looking for conflict what with stating you're ideas on a thread for Christians... what were you trying to do? Convert us to Wiccanism? Come on Arathin.... :rolleyes:

Personally I see Christianity as being a member of God's family through adouption... even impregnation. God puts a little of His Son in us when we ask Him to and we join his family.

I think the dictionary definition of Christian is simply "A follower of Christ." Arathin apparently doesn't follow Christ even if she believes in Him. I don't see why not. She's half way there. Personally I think she just doesn't like the connotation of the word, if you know what I mean... sees it as too much of a religion and not a real relationship or something anyone could ever need. That is just my personal opinion. I live a few thousand miles from Arathin and have never met her...

I think Thingol was probably thinking Arathin sounds like Aragorn so that was why he... she... he... great... Thingol which are you?... made that innocent error.

Like me having the Strider ending. Confuses the heck out of everybody...

[Ciryaher]

I believe that Arathin "crashed" your "party" because if she were to have started a thread for just Wiccans, you would have been equally offended. Perhaps you wouldn't have stated it publicly, but the shock would definitely be present.

This is why I personally frown upon threads/guilds of this sort because people are excluded/included because of what they feel/believe rather than what they know. A discussion on the importance of, say, the Chaining of Melko and how it affected his henceforth behaviour is something that all can participate and put in quality input on. A thread that is solely for one's religion does not create the right....atmosphere. What you got was what you didn't want, but what should happen. An argument on the topic that was posted.

[HLGStrider]

I believe that Arathin "crashed" your "party" because if she were to have started a thread for just Wiccans, you would have been equally offended

Actually, I wouldn't have gone into a thread with the title Wiccans because it would hold absolutely no interest for me. As for shocked, no. I knew Arathin's religious beliefs long before she posted them on here. We've been PMing each other since she got on this sight and though we have occasionally clashed I'd say we're pretty nice to each other in private... aint that so, Arathin?

I don't think this was an attempt to start a guild, but an attempt to reach out. To find some people with common believes upon which they could find friendship. No everyone enjoys the anominity of the big forum. They like to feel they "know" people. Most friendships are founded on common interests, and if your Christianity is important to you it makes sense that you would want to reach out to people with whom you can share this and talk to them about it with them understanding.

To do this you can either word search the word Christian to find people who are and then PM them, but wouldn't this just take forever? You can look for people with bible verses in their sigs, but that also takes time. I had one person PM me because she saw that I was a Christian by my profile, but who has time to read all the profiles? A thread makes sense. I started a homeschoolers thread just to see how many people of like education were on here. I didn't do it to shun public schoolers, but I was really curious, and it worked. I found a ton of homeschoolers!

So I wouldn't condemn the practice. We scared the heck out of this poor threads founder by turning her potential social life into a war zone... but that's how it goes on here.

Some people were probably shocked by Arathin's first post. I was shocked that she'd visited this thread, and it seemed to me she was looking for trouble... which was why I am surprised that her last post seemed to be complaining about how much she'd got...

I don't think anyone is going to be hated around this forum. We have a lot of Christians, but also a lot of people on the other sides of things...

[Arathin]

I posted her because I noticed that false pretenses about Wiccan, witches and warlocks in general, were being made. That they worshipped Satan. This isn't true. We don't all worship Satan. Most of us done. So I felt, as a Wiccan, that I had the responsiblity to inform you that we indeed don't worship Satan just because we are Wiccan. I didn't come here to be critised about my beliefs or to be told that I am Christian even if I tell you I am not, or that I am Christian. I also don't like the way HLG seemed to be talking about me like I wasn't gonna read her post. Always with me in third person. Sorry, I like being talked to as if I were the only one reading the post, or at least like I was gonna read it. I didn't come looking for an agrument, merely to set the record straight.

[HLGStrider]

I did the third person bit because I was answering Cir and Confus's posts... If I used the phrase you to refer to you Cir and Con would think I was referring to them... etc... Anyway, I didn't think you'd be the next poster... I should've since I knew you were online, but it didn't come to mind. I make a point of using people's names instead of pronouns. Less ambiguity... ambiguity.. anominity... boy I'm using big, hard to spell words today.

I suppose you have a point. However, I wasn't referring to wiccans in the modern sense, but witches, and as I've said I read this fantasy dictionary "The Encyclopedia of Things that Never Existed" or something like that, that described witches as women who get their powers from the devil. I really wasn't thinking about you when I said it. In fact I didn't expect you to be on that thread so I was thinking about you not at all.

Well, I guess that is understandable... the setting the record straight part. Still, I think you could've anticipated the response enough that you wouldn't start getting so teed up over it... teed up? Tense.

[Arathin]

Well that is understandable. I am sorry. Anyway, I just don't like how you all kept up the belief that Witches and Warlocks worship Satan when you had just been told by one that they didn't. And I don't like how some of you, no names, still think I worship Satan and am just delusional because I am not. Anyway, I don't see how Witches would be in an Encycliopidia about things that never existed as we have always existed. Witches were, might I remind you, around long before you Chirstians were, and are the forefounders of many different types of religions, maybe even Jedism and Christianity.

[HLGStrider]

It also had an entry about the Islands of Japan. It was one weird book... It took everything from King Solomens Mines and commented them, using them to make some idiotic points about the Environment... Didn't have a thing about hobbits.

[Ciryaher]

That's because hobbits are real!

I wonder what would happen if I made a thread for militant gun-owners....

[Arathin]

I would join, even though I don't technically own a gun......technically that is.

[HLGStrider]

I personally support the right to bear arms even if you are militant... and the right to shoot you if you try something..., but I don't speak for the Mods. Of course you are a mod... Do you guys mind being called Mods? Am I stereotyping you? :D


Support the right to bare arms... wear tank tops...

I love that joke.

[Gandalf_White]

Originally posted by Arathin
Witches were, might I remind you, around long before you Chirstians were, and are the forefounders of many different types of religions, maybe even Jedism and Christianity.

I am sorry to correct you Arathin but I should tell you that witches have NOT been in existance longer than Christians.
Let me explain... God created the world right? He created Adam and Eve they weren't witches. In the Old Tesament of the bible the followers of God were the Jews who were waiting for the Savior (Jesus)Now in the Old Testament I figure that maybe witches came around sometime between the time of Adam and the time of Noah. Because at the time of Noah came the flood which destroyed all the evil people in the world. (Some could have been witches) Witches probably revived again sometime several hundread years after the time of Noah. Then came the time of Jesus. Jesus came to save the world and establish a "new" covenant with the people of God those who chose to follow were then called Christians.
So what I'm trying to say is that though Christians themselves have only been around for 2000 years. They (well most of them) were Jews and turn to God's new covenant and became Christians.
I hope I didn't lose anybody there. But I'm just trying to make a point.

GW

[Helena]

Originally posted by Walter
Helena, no offense meant, but your statement that you "believe in god to some extent" needed some clarification I think - for it easily can be mistaken to sound like "being pregnant to some extent"...

Very well, I'll gladly clarify :). I believe in God, but I don't perform any rituals (praying, going to curch etc.), I don't have a set of mythological beliefs, and on top of that I have many more personal views and opinions that make me doubt my own conviction. I admit that I view religion too scientifically sometimes and that makes believing hard. I don't believe in God the creator because, I study the evolution of human beings and I find it difficult to believe in both. I don't believe that God is almighty, I believe that He too can make mistakes. So technically that means that I don't believe in the Christian God. Yet my God has many of the same aspects as the Christian idea of God: He is a father, loving, forgiving and always there for me.

I think my problem is that I simply can't allow myself to feel all the emotions of a religious experience, I tend to analyze too much. Feel free to ask more if you wish, this is an interesting question for me too, since I'm quite unsure where I stand with God :).

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Do you guys mind being called Mods? Am I stereotyping you? :D

Mod is quite OK with me.
As long as you don't think that I'm Link from the Mod Squad! Ooops, just gave away my age.

And support your right to arm bears.

RD

[Walter]

Helena, I can pretty much relate to what you said, in fact I can see a great similarity to my own beliefs. I have been baptized as a roman catholic and been educated in the beliefs of the roman catholic church. During my late teens and twens I went through the stages of nihilism, atheism, some form of "sciencism" (belief in science as the ultimate truth), agnosticism and after a few years researching Buddhism, Zen and Yoga I have somehow returned to the roots and am considering myself a christian now. But of course some influence of the eastern religions still remains.

What I would like to note to your post, however, is that I personally don't see much of a discrepancy between believing in god - as the creator - and evolution. God didn't necessarily have to create the earth, each species or individuum him/herself and if you e.g. see the creation of the universe as "the creative act" and everything after that, as some form of evolution, IMO no problem arises there...

-------------
Off Topic: Mods??? Wasn't that how the guys riding a Vespa and getting clobbered by the rockers were called??? :D

-------------
As for the discussion about guns, I'd invite everyone to take it to the proper thread where it belongs to, in the GOP...

[HLGStrider]

I don't think we are going to get seriously into the gun thing... it was a great joke platform, however.

I just like the way the Mods sounds...

I have no idea what year the Mod Squad was on TV in so don't worry about me dating you...

[Arathin]

Argh. I think all religious beliefs are totally based on your own perspective point of view. I mean what if I think Adam and Eve were warlock and witch. or so on so on. I mean it all depends on how you see things. This is just the way I see things. And actually, Adam and Eve weren't ever Christian. The first Christian by your standards was Jesus. All before that were Jewish.

Go firearms. If you will all please read my siggy?

[Ciryaher]

That's not a very valid argument, GW. Just because *some* Jews became Christian doesn't at all mean that you can say Christianity is as old as Judaism, because it isn't. Their philosophies are quite different, though we have the same God.

[Arathin]

Thank you Ciryaher.

[HLGStrider]

The plan for Christianity has been around always, but what Cir says is true. Before the actual death and resurection of Christ... perhaps not until after pentecost, I wouldn't say Christianity actually existed, just the hope for the Messiah that Christ would become...

I reject all religion is just your point of view arguments that keep coming up. It's just silly. If it were just your point of view it would be pointless to believe it.

[Gandalf_White]

I am sorry I didn't explain my thoughts too well. I guess what I mean to say is just because witches may have been in existance longer than Christians DOES NOT IN ANY WAY make them better than Christians.
I still think witches are evil. Just because some of them may not worship Satan does not mean they aren't evil. Witches have a desire for power and would rather rely on themselves than the almighty God for help.

Originally posted by Helena
I don't believe that God is almighty, I believe that He too can make mistakes.

Mistakes? What kind of mistakes? God DOES NOT make mistakes.

[HLGStrider]

One thing I've never been able to decide is the question of whether God is incapable of doing evil or just prefers not to.
I believe in a good God, a God who is all goodness, a God who is love.
I also believe in an all powerful God.
One would think that this power includes the ability to do evil. Yet doing evil would violate the very being of God...

so is it impossible for God to do evil or does He just choose not to?

I have never decided which I believed. What do you think?

[Rangerdave]

Why is it that everyone seems so hellbent to cry sin here? Can we not simply allow that religious and spiritual beliefs are individual to the believer. This thread is really just becoming a dead horse kick-a-thon.

Originally posted by HLGStrider
I reject all religion is just your point of view arguments that keep coming up. It's just silly. If it were just your point of view it would be pointless to believe it.

Actually, I think it would be silly to consider religion anything other than a point of view. There is no definate means to prove or disprove the validity of any one religion over any other. Notice that I said "prove" not evaluate.

"If it were just your point of view it would be pointless to believe it." But the point is to believe it. if there were irrefutable proof, then belief would be a waste of time. Why should I believe in air when I already know its there. Just take it for granted. But there is no absolute proof for God, therefore I must believe him to be there.

Without god, man is nothing. Without Man, god is nothing. With god and Man all things are possible

RD

[Helena]

Originally posted by Walter

What I would like to note to your post, however, is that I personally don't see much of a discrepancy between believing in god - as the creator - and evolution. God didn't necessarily have to create the earth, each species or individuum him/herself and if you e.g. see the creation of the universe as "the creative act" and everything after that, as some form of evolution, IMO no problem arises there...


That is what I thought at first, but mainly the research done on the human brain and our cognitive systems has made God seem impossible to me at times. As I said, I can believe in God to some extent, but some things just don't seem to match. You could say that I'm on a neverending search for the truth :). Maybe that is why I decided to study comparative religion, to know more about what it is to believe in god/gods etc.

Btw, your journey from Christianity to atheism and back to Christianity sounds very familiar ;). I've been there... At one time I hated anything and everything concerning religions, I thought they were fake and false. Then I became an agnostic and then a Christian (roman-catholic church) and now I'm searching again :).

[Helena]

Originally posted by Gandalf_White
Mistakes? What kind of mistakes? God DOES NOT make mistakes. [/B]

That's where your beliefs differ from mine, friend :). I think God can make mistakes because He isn't almighty, and he can't be almighty because He has given men a free will. But let's not get into a philosophical debate ;).

[HLGStrider]

Word of warning, if you don't want to get into a phylisophical debate, don't make philosphical statements. Someone will have an opposite opinion, and you don't know how frustrating it is when someone makes a statement you don't agree with and then says they don't want to get into a debate so that you don't feel like you can counter it... Really, really, frustrating, but I will respect your wishes.

RD, you have a point that the unprovable can be considered only a point of view, but a lot of truths cannot be proven. I know that one of the religions, perhaps even atheism, is TRUE, which makes it more than a point of a view. It makes it something real. What is a point of view is which religion is the true one. That is the belief. However, one must be true... or maybe none are. I can't prove it.

There are also differing sorts of truth. There is the type of truth that doesn't really matter.
For instance a mountain is so many feet high... I could live my entire life believing the mountain is a hundred or even a thousand feet shorter than it truly is, and it would only effect me when playing Trivia games (Unless of course I planned to climb the mountain... no example is perfect). A lot of things are true this way.
Then there are truths which would be the spiritual paralel of not knowing that a red light means "STOP". You don't know it so you just might get yourself hurt running a red light. In spiritual terms, this is not knowing that a certain action is sinful. Most sins are sins because doing them will eventually hurt you... not always but most of the time. If you have promiscus sex you might eventually get a STD or become pregnent out of wedlock just as if you keep running stop signs you might get hit by another car, even if you don't know it is wrong.
Then there are truths that mean the whole world. Believing these truths is eternally important. I believe these are the Christian truths involving Christ as your savior. Other religions believe them to be other things. Only one group is right. I think it is Christianity.

[Walter]

But Elgee, a word to the wise, what may "appear" an eternal truth for you, must not necessarily be the truth for everyone else. It may or may not be the ultimate, eternal truth, most probably we will not get to "know" it within this lifetime. But the statement you made, that "only one religion is right: Christianity" you are making the first steps on a path that - at it's end - has brought misery or death to far too many people already.

For that is exactly the path which in the past lead to the most terrible mistakes Christians have made: Crusades and Inquisition...

[Arathin]

Why are you, GW, so hard bent to say that I am evil because I am a witch? How many witches do you actually know? We aren't evil. Not all of us. I could just as easily say, all Christians are evil. Why? Because Christians and Witches are against eachother. You say all Witches are evil without justivication, then I say all Christians are evil without justivication. See, it can go both ways here. I have more prove than you of the evils of Christianity, but I don't rub them in your face do I? I don't say, Hey I know all these evil things Christians have done, so all you Christians are Satanic or just evil do I? No, I don't. So what right do you have to make some stupid, ill-informed, preconseption that all Witches are Satanic or evil? You don't. God says what is good or evil, and personally I think he just chooses not to be evil himself. I think God can do whatever the f He wants to do. If He wants to nuke the world, He'll darn well nuke the fing planet.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by HLGStrider

RD, you have a point that the unprovable can be considered only a point of view, but a lot of truths cannot be proven. I know that one of the religions, perhaps even atheism, is TRUE, which makes it more than a point of a view. It makes it something real. What is a point of view is which religion is the true one. That is the belief. However, one must be true... or maybe none are. I can't prove it.


Holy Mackeral! (no I don't consider seafood divine) We agree on something. I must write this down in my diary.

You made my point, There are indeed many things that are true yet unprovable. Facts are concrete and can be shown with models and maths and all that kind of science **** that I stunk so bably at back in school. Opinion only requires thought. Honest opinions are the hallmark of wisdom. What you know to be true is true now and will be true for ever and ever amen, and it will still all be just an opinion. One very important and defining opinion.

Any idiot can look up trivia, but only a true human sould can create an opinion.

RD

[HLGStrider]

But do you believe that somewhere out there there are truths other than Mathematics...

Walter, I know all about the inquisition.... Well, not all, but I studied it in school. It was a bad combination of power and self righteousness. The crusades were not so much a holy war as they were made out to be from what I've read. The first was based on the rumor that pilgrims were being robbed by the local government. The rest was a vague religious excuse for conquest. They believed that God would back what they did.

As I've said before I don't judge a religion by the deeds, good or bad, of its followers, but by its truth. I have never found a reasonable reason to doubt my believes, and I hold them in concrete form.

[HLGStrider]

Walter, you misquoted me.
What you said I said:
only one religion is right: Christianity"

What I said:
Only one group is right. I think it is Christianity.

Even if I could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am right I wouldn't choose to force my belief on other people using the government or violence. That wouldn't do any good. I admit that I cannot prove it, but that does not mean that I believe it with any less fervency. Some things you just have to take on faith.

I admire anyone who holds a belief stalwartly. It takes a real man (or woman) to do that. Misguided faith is better than nothing.

[morning star]

Arathin I am sorry for my answer to your question being so smart-elic.
I should have stated what i believe politely and explained my answer.
After reading your posts and other's I guess I'll come back.


I believe witchcraft is wrong because the Bible says so.
If i can find a verse i'll type it here.


untill then,
MS

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
But do you believe that somewhere out there there are truths other than Mathematics...


Yes, thats the whole point. Truth is true because you know it in your heart and soul and very being to be true. Mathematics is Fact because you can prove it to others.

There are truths to be found every day. Each is personal and each is independent.

I know for a Fact that 2+2=4 and I know for a fact that 4-2=2. So what. This is useful knowlidge but not very satisfying.

however, I believe in many more interesting things. I believe that there in a supreme intelligence. I believe that Christ had some really good ideas, others not so good. I believe that Children have a better grasp of what God really is than adult do. I believe that every one is entitled to his own opinion. And I believe that Ashley Judd secretly is waiting for me.

I can't prove any of these, but I believe them. And most importantly, all are subject to change pending further enlightenment.

BTW, I thought of this quote yesterday and thought I would pass it along. Bethany: You're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier.

taken from the film Dogma


Enjoy Life
RD

[Walter]

Elgee,

I didn't and still do not see an essential difference between your statement and my quote of your statement, but of course you are right that I did not quote you correctly. I am sorry if I mis-interpreted it. I appreciate your beliefs, but - according to my own experience over the decades - even beliefs change with time. And what do we take as the source for our - christian - beliefs?

Can we take it as a reliable source for our beliefs what our church teaches us to believe? I for my part can't. Church-politics have played and still do play an important part in what we are told to believe by our Church, they have in the past used and abused their role to fulfil their own - institutional - interests, why should I believe them now?

Okay, another source: The bible? Yes, but have we read it? I for my part have not read a single line of the original in hebrew so far. Not even the Greek or Latin translations. Every single line from the bible I have read so far was either german - my native tongue - or english. But this is a translation of a translation. And those people who have translated it had their own beliefs - or maybe even "guidelines", which played a major role in the way they did the translation. And even if we assumed the translation would be correct: What we perceive from the text we read also depends on our former education, the way we are pre-conditioned towards religion, our experiences in life, etc., etc.

Do you see the problem with our beliefs? They just differ from individuum to individuum, even when we think we share the same beliefs...

----------
RD,

would you be so kind as to prove the Fact of the "Theorema Egregium" of Gauß to me (actually that should still not be impossible, but it was the first more complicated example that came to my mind). And in case you can't, may I beg to differ with your statement that "Mathematics is fact"?

No, I'm not nitpicking or hairsplitting again, my point is, that even in mathematics or physics, which are to some degree "exact sciences" you are walking on thin ice with "facts", when things get a little more complicated. When you leave simple algebra and move towards higher mathematics or quantum physics it's no longer possible to recognize the "facts". Proofs, explanations or theories are are moving towards "philosophy" and "religion" rather quickly. (c.f W.Heisenberg: "Physics & Philosophy", F.Capra: "The Tao of Physics", E.Chargaff: "Incomprehensible secret" (title transl. from german), Gary Zukav: "The dancing Wu Li Masters"). Funnily enough, people educated in eastern religions have less troubles to comprehend those "theories" than scholars educated in the western tradition (which mainly derives from the greek traditions to define logic)...

And my point? "All is relative"...

[Arathin]

Thank you for coming back, Morning Star. I would hate to be someone's reason for leaving such fun as ttf.

Elgee, you are right steady faith is better than the "right" one. I believe in my wiccanism steadly and will not falter from it. Sorry to those of you trying to convince me I am doomed for hell because I am a witch, but you won't "save" this little soul, if that is the case. I was, contraty to many of your beliefs i bet, Christian for a long time, but i found it restricting in its religious beliefs. I felt I couldn't be myself as a Chirstian. That is why I left it, and became Wiccan. I don't, personally, care what religion you are. i just can't go back to Christianity. I must perfer being wiccan. I feel "whole" as a wiccan. A wholeness i never felt as a Christian. I mean i have some good friends who are priests, and they don't hold it against me that I left Christianity to be wiccan. So i don't see why you all should.

[Walter]

Arathin, let's continue this discussion in say 30 years. If you still can say you have not faltered, I will take my hats off... ;)

[Arathin]

K. Here is my email. dragonmaiden85@hotmail.com

I will always have that email. in 30 years, email me about it. I bet you twenty bucks I'll still be wiccan, and you had better have alot of hats on at the time. hehe

[HairyHobbitFeet]

I just read this entire thread. Yep. Instead of posting my two cents, I'll just say that I heart Rangerdave.

Some first post. ;)

[Arathin]

RangerDave has a not-so-secret admirer. Welcome HairyHobbitFeet. Interesting name.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Arathin
K. Here is my email. dragonmaiden85@hotmail.com

I will always have that email. in 30 years, email me about it. I bet you twenty bucks I'll still be wiccan, and you had better have alot of hats on at the time. hehe I wonder if hotmail will still exist then and if you still will stick to an email-addy which refers to you as dragonmaiden85 with 47, but ok. Mine is <removed later on> and yes I might have to have a few hats by that time to keep my bald head cosy and warm ;)

*chuckles and sings: "When I get older losing my hair, many years from now... "*

[Helena]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Word of warning, if you don't want to get into a phylisophical debate, don't make philosphical statements. Someone will have an opposite opinion, and you don't know how frustrating it is when someone makes a statement you don't agree with and then says they don't want to get into a debate so that you don't feel like you can counter it... Really, really, frustrating, but I will respect your wishes.


What I actually meant to say was that there is no need for a philosophical debate on that very subject, because I think I've heard every classical argument there is and still feel the way I feel. If you want to, you can certainly counter my statement, I have no qualms with it. It was more my manner of saying that I respect your beliefs and we'll leave it at that :). Hopefully you can respect other's beliefs as well.

[HLGStrider]

And what do we take as the source for our - christian - beliefs?

The Bible.

Actually, Walter, the Biblical translations are far more accurate than most of those of the works of Aristotle and other Greek and Roman philosophers. In fact, it is has been noted that few books are as backed up, considering the time they have been around.

You really should read the Case for Christ... Not to convert you, but it does have a good chapter on Biblical tranlations... It complete rejects just about the entire Apothreca... Apo?... but I'm not Catholic so I really don't care about that.

Elgee, you are right steady faith is better than the "right" one.

No, actually, what I said was that a wrong faith was better than no faith. Meaning that I have more respect for a good Mouslom or Jew than one who goes back and forth between faiths like a Democrat in a political debate... :rolleyes:

I respect others believes in that I will not pass laws against them, I will not insult them intentionally, though I do believe that sometime I may unwittingly walk into a temple with shoes on, if you'll pardon the metaphor, but I will not acknowledge them to be true. I don't believe truth to be a matter of opinion.

[Rangerdave]

Math Alert! Math Alert!
Whoop Whoop Whoop
Shields up! Prepare to fire!

OK I'll admit it. I had no idea what the heck a "Theorema Egregium" of Gauß is. It sounds like the alien of the week on Star Trek.

So, being the inquizitive soul that I am, I looked it up. And I can proudly say that I still don't know what the heck a "Theorema Egregium" of Gauß is. But I get your point.

I will admit that even the "hard sciences" are in reality simply very dependable probibilities rather than actual facts. But lets make the difference that the sciences are not dependant on moral judgements to function, whereas most if not all religions and belief systems are.

RD

PS. If I could do math, do you actually think that I would have chosen to become a historian?

rd

[HLGStrider]

I don't know... what would you have been if you could do math? A mathmetician? An accountant?

Take my advice, stick with history...

And I will be a famous writer... If you aren't nice to me I'll write about you mean in my book... mu ha ha ha ;)

[Samwise_hero]

How did we get from the subject of Christianity to the subject of what profession we are and are not? It's just a little weird that's all. Two totally different subjects (or topics should i say).:confused:

[HLGStrider]

Someone caught RD in a math error and he was defending that he could have a math error by saying that he was a historian, and I was saying that I was a writer because I take every opportunity to pull my stupid joke about writing nasty things about people...

We've gone on and off on the main subject. Have you read all the posts? Anyway, we always get back to it eventually... It's sort of nice to take a breather from arguing with each other.

[Walter]

No one cought RD in a math error, the examples he gave are correct in the "historical sense" of mathematics... :D

[Parrot]

In any case, let us have no more nasty jabs at accountants Elgee, we have feelings too, just like real people.

[Rangerdave]

Yeah!
Lets hear it for the bean counters.

How do I love thee... Let me itemize the ways...

Sorry, couldn't be helped.

RD
:p

[Walter]

So, is that what accountants are called - "Bean counters"? *EG*

[Arathin]

ah poor picked on Parrot. Btw, Elgee. I am writing two novels at this exact moment in time. One is called "A Tale to Last a Lifetime" the other is called "The Anti-Hero" guess what that one is about!!!!! Ahhhh!!!! I love writing, but two novels at once is just a bit much for this little 16 almost 17 year old!!! I haven't even finished typing out my short story yet! Oh well. I just don't get enough time to type anything out. I just write it, someone else can type it if they really want.

[Parrot]

Yes, Walter, sadly, that is one of the many less-than-flattering monikers hung on this down-trodden and much, quite unfairly I might add, maligned minority. Another, is C.P.A. which, of course, stands for Constant Pain in the... err... Assets.

[Walter]

Awww, Parrot, the term sounded funny to me at first but how you say it now I almost pity your "guild".

P.S.: I thought the "A" stands for something else.....Achtersteven ;)

[HLGStrider]

Poor accountants... My great uncle is one... Couldn't make it as a reporter.

[Parrot]

If everyone doesn't stop making fun of accountants I'm going to have to have Arathin put a serious Mojo on your ass or a pox on your house or give you a bad hair or whatever it is Wiccans do....

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Parrot
If everyone doesn't stop making fun of accountants I'm going to have to have Arathin put a serious Mojo on your ass or a pox on your house or give you a bad hair or whatever it is Wiccans do....

Would that be a hex-spell or a binary spell?

Thanks Parrot. this thread needed some comic relief.

RD

[Walter]

A hex spell, binary spells are too long :p

There you go: 4A 75 73 74 20 6B 69 64 64 69 6E 67 21

[Parrot]

and if you've ever had a "bad hair" you know just how painful that can be.... I MEANT "BAD HAIR DAY".... and hey speaking of painful I have this sudden strange pain in my chest, almost like someone is sticking me with a giant invisible needle .... huh... weird...

It doesn't matter what kind RangerDave, I can't stand those members who quibble over "spelling"... get it... "spelling".... "spell-ing"? Okay, I'll shut up now. What were you guys talking about anyway?

[HLGStrider]

Oh the basic aspects of Christianity, how right or wrong witchcraft is, the realitivity or nonrealativity of truth, why we believe this or that...
Basic religion... with a few politics. I take a jab at the opposite party whenever I can fit one in. It's my evil side coming out...

You know what's funny. A friend once accused me of mispelling a word... That was exactly how he said it "mispelling"... I accused him of misspelling misspelling... It was fun... He needed his ego sunk a little bit, and I am infatuated with him so I'm the perfect one to do it.

[Grond]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
...It was fun... He needed his ego sunk a little bit, and I am infatuated with him so I'm the perfect one to do it. You are entirely too attractive of a young lady to be infatuated with anyone. All the guys at your school should be infatuated with you!! ;)

[HLGStrider]

Thanks Grond... :) They don't have a blush smiley, do they?

Well, I'm 17 and he's 20... you know how it is... Plus he's six four... IQ's pretty good too...

I'm homeschooled so the guy pool is kind of small...

[Grond]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Thanks Grond... :) They don't have a blush smiley, do they?

Well, I'm 17 and he's 20... you know how it is... Plus he's six four... IQ's pretty good too...

I'm homeschooled so the guy pool is kind of small... Damn!! Add both of your ages and I'm still older than the sum. :(

[HLGStrider]

So's my dad... and a lot of other people...

Sorry if I've hurt your ego Grond... I'll be your age someday.

[Grond]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
So's my dad... and a lot of other people...

Sorry if I've hurt your ego Grond... I'll be your age someday. Hey Elgee, you're only as old as you feel. Unfortunatly, today I feel like I'm 106... LOL but maybe my shoulder will hurt less tomorrow. :)

[Walter]

Originally posted by Grond
Hey Elgee, you're only as old as you feel. Unfortunatly, today I feel like I'm 106... LOL but maybe my shoulder will hurt less tomorrow. :) Don't you think that old hammer is getting a tad too heavy for someone your age? Maybe you should check out one of these lightweight alu models? Or maybe one made of rubber? ;)

[HLGStrider]

Hope that improves

Anything to do with living in a sportmans paradise?

[Grond]

Originally posted by HLGStrider
Hope that improves

Anything to do with living in a sportmans paradise? Errr.... Ummm.... Tennis three times a week and golf twice a week might have something to do with it. That and a motorcycle accident from 1973. :)

[Arathin]

Sorry, Parrot. I am not a hex-witch. I don't cast bad spells on people unless they hurt someone of my family or someone I care about. If you hurt me, I kick you're little sorry arse myself.

Grond, I hope you're shoulder feels better. I would give you a backmassage, as i am wicked good at giving em, but unfortunately, i don't live near you.

[HLGStrider]

That and a motorcycle accident from 1973

You know Grond, I'd never thought of you as a Hell's Angel...

You know I always thought you were at least under thirty until I read your profile... You type young...

[Arathin]

In someways, that could be taken as an insult, Elgee. I have always been told I type old. Oh well. I guess I am more mature than I thought.

[morning star]

here's a couple