Harad and Ulairi? --UPDATED--

[Parrot]

Question to ReadWryt and the Mods,

Why are Ulairi’s posts still here while Harad’s were deleted shortly after his banishment, even though they were banished for nearly identical reasons? It can’t be due to relative quality as Harad posted some of this most insightful and thought provoking stuff here, while Ulairi’s were 90% self-promoting ****. It can’t be the tone, as Ulairi was at least as combative and insulting as Harad. Is Ulairi coming back someday? Is it merely a time issue; what with all the changes to the forum there has been no time to delete Ulairi? Someone, more jaded than myself of course, might conclude that there is a double standard in play here, unless there is some compelling reason put forth. What gives?

[aragil]

To be fair Parrot, the classics are still intact:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2604 (my favorite)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2910 (good stuff about the rings)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2794

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2302

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2362
(included only because of VoK's gem)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2058
(A legend in its own time- posts by both HtG (all deleted, sadly) and HtW, aliteration battle between HtW and Aldanil, and the perfect conclusion by BtP. Top Notch)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3099
(another epic/classic)

and finally,
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3085
(the epicest of the epics, and I beleive the thread which brought you to our attentions. Unfortunately, it's also largely responsible for the loss of our dear departed- tragedy mixed with other drama, all in one thread)

Of course, if you're wondering about the deletion of HtG's posts (as opposed to HtW's, which are still intact), then that is a bit different. HtG's 'banishment' seems to be a somewhat singular event, as it was the only one in which a banned members' posts (as well as everyone else's posts in the threads which the banned member started) were deleted.

[Parrot]

Okay, my bad. I tried to find his profile but he's MIA and I was also looking thru an old movie thread that seemed to be missing his posts but maybe he was still HtG then.

[Beorn]

Harad's posts were not deleted. His account was. If you look at those threads that aragil saved me from finding, you'll notice how Harad is said to be 'Not Registered.' This is because the forum software can't find his name in the database, so it assumes that he posted as a guest (note: the forum software can be configured so that only registered users can post, or users and guests...it's currently on the former)

As for why Ulairi's account was not removed, I don't know.

[ReadWryt]

Why are Ulairi’s posts still here while Harad’s were deleted shortly after his banishment, even though they were banished for nearly identical reasons? It can’t be due to relative quality as Harad posted some of this most insightful and thought provoking stuff here, while Ulairi’s were 90% self-promoting ****. It can’t be the tone, as Ulairi was at least as combative and insulting as Harad. Is Ulairi coming back someday? Is it merely a time issue; what with all the changes to the forum there has been no time to delete Ulairi? Someone, more jaded than myself of course, might conclude that there is a double standard in play here, unless there is some compelling reason put forth. What gives?

...and your point would be?...

[aragil]

Entmoot
Discussions and deliberations about what you like, dislike, or would like to see done at THETOLKIENFORUM.com.

Looks to me like Parrot had an issue about THETOLKIENFORUM.com which he wished to discuss/deliberate, and he (correctly) chose this forum to do so. If every thread needs to have a point, then I'm afraid that there are many 'Legolas is SO hot' threads that might require your attention over in the movie forum.

[Beorn]

Aragil, empty your PM box...make sure when you empty it, select 'Show messages from....the beginning' then delete them...don't forget you need to empty the inbox and the sent messages box.

[aragil]

Just for my own (and possibly others) info, what is the PM limit? I've deleted a lot of messages, but there are some I'd like to keep (if possible). What's the magic # for a full PM box?

[Beorn]

140-something...

[Parrot]

ENTMOOT - Discussions and deliberations about what you like, dislike, or would like to see done at THETOLKIENFORUM.com.
...and your point would be?...
hmmm… thought my point was pretty clear… guess I don’t write überese very well….*shrug*

To borrow a phrase…. What part of “my bad” did my last post not clearly convey? For those keeping score at home; I had a valid question, in keeping with the stated mission of this board, about how things were being handled with regards to banned members. Turns out my question was somewhat off-base and Aragil and the good Beorn have already set me straight about my partially (and only “partially,” as the question of the user accounts and apparent double standard remains) mistaken assumption, so, to borrow another phrase, your point would be?...

Thanks for the reply Beorn. I really should have done more research before putting up that post. Actually, rather than see Ulairi’s account removed, I think it would be good if there were still an account (non-active) for Harad so that people could easily see all his posts. Whatever anyone’s personal feeling towards Harad and some of his debate techniques, there is no denying that he was one of the most knowledgeable and entertaining cats on the forum. Those threads listed by Aragil should probably be required reading for every member of the forum not just for Harad’s contributions but also for those of Anc, Grond, Aragil, Greenwood, V of K, Aldanil, Goro, and any other of the greats I’m neglecting to mention. Those kinds of consistently intelligent, insightful, and witty exchanges don’t come along too often. Maybe the very best threads should be given their own “Classics” or “Hall of Fame” board where they wouldn’t just slowly fade into oblivion and new members could easily come upon them.

[Grond]

I must concur with Parrot's logic. He had an appropriate concern which he posted in the appropriate forum and received a wholly inappropriate response from the Powers that Be.

This is a free forum and we must operate within the rules as outlined by the Webmaster, Super-moderator and Moderators, but I would have preferred to see a, "we make these decisions and prefer not to share our reasons with the forum", than a blatantly sarcastic "and your point would be?". One might as well say, "Na na na na naaaaaaa na, we ain't gonna tell you!!" It would have been just as sarcastic and inappropriate. :(

[Walter]

...a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a (high) horse...

just so I could talk to the powers being at the same level

(or should that say "height" rather than "level")?

[dapence]

I didn't realize this was still an issue. That is most likely the belief RW shares, and would explain his response.

Perhaps a recap is in order.

1. Harad was, in fact, a great contributor to TTF. He, at times, was insightful, and seemed well versed in the subjects this site is dedicated to discussing. Harad also demonstrated a talent for personal attacks, an activity that is well known to be against the rules. RW can tell you that I resisted that call of many TTF members to ban Harad for quite sometime. He was eventually banned, only to be reinstated a short time later, to no effect, because Harad continued to resort to personal attacks to defend a position. In the end, I decided that enough was enough, and that no matter how much a member contributes to the quality of the posts at TTF, rules must apply to all, or not at all. So, he was banned. I regretted the need to do so, but it was done.

As to Harad's posts, they are still in the database, but when Harad's account was removed, Harad's name was replaced with 'Guest' as the author. A default action of vBulletin.

Why is Ulari's posts still under his name? Because I haven't deleted his account. His membership, if he even desires it, will be dealt with in the near future. Beorn may be able to fill you as to how. That exact nature of that mechanism is still in development.

I would like to point out that this site is not the sum of one or two members only, but of all the TTF members. I think it insulting to the membership as a whole for some to complain that this site is of little value without the activity of one or two members being present. I receive a great deal of e-mail from people visiting this site, and finding themselves impressed with the quality of the material, and especially the members found on TTF. I know I, for one, am proud of the TTF membership. And if a few people are unhappy because we have had to enforce a few rules from time to time to keep a relatively pleasant atmosphere, I sorry, but that's the way things are. I will not allow this site to degenerate into a free-for-all, simply to make a very few people happy. And that's exactly what would happen, if from time-to-time, a Harad, or a Ulari is banned from TTF.

That's the end of my rant.

P. S. And to sound all 'high and mighty,' this post is not open to debate, so there. :p

[Walter]

Thank you, WM, for answering on behalf of the Powers of TTF.

Having recently learned that Harad is actually not a teenager - what I assumed him to be from his behaviour - I do think that this forum is better off without him than with him. But Ulairi's attitude should be seen in the light of his age, so I somehow would think it fair would he be given a second chance and his attitude observed...

Nonetheless Parrot's question was legitime and properly placed and hence IMO would deserve a better answer from the over-moderator of this forum than just: ...and your point would be?.... Frankly, this did not seem the best of all possible answers to me...

[Parrot]

WM, thanks for the involved reply, it pretty much completely answered my question, which was simply; what is behind the appearance of a possible double-standard in how these two bannings have been handled? Nothing more, nothing less. You answered thoughtfully and, I trust, honestly, case closed.

However I will add one thing. I hope that:
I think it insulting to the membership as a whole for some to complain that this site is of little value without the activity of one or two members being present.
is merely a general statement of your feelings on the entire matter and not a sentiment you are saying was specifically conveyed by anything that I, or anyone supporting my position, have written here. If the latter is the case, then I would say that it is grossly misleading and the whole point really has been missed.

Again, thanks for the reply.

[ReadWryt]

I just didn't understand what the big deal was in questioning the way that people who broke rules and were booted were treated after the fact is all, it seems to me to be moot. If someone wants to try to be an advocate for the rights of miscreants who abused the forum at the expense of the respectful membership they are of course free to do so I suppose, but I fail to see what good it serves the membership in any way to do so...

[Parrot]

After all the “rules is rules is rules” talk, I don’t believe it is moot at all to examine the consistency in enforcing said rules and there is no telling who might benefit down the road from such an accounting. As has been said many times, it is WebMaster’s site and he has the right and power to run it as he sees fit, but, to his credit, he has created a relatively egalitarian forum where members can question the way things are run. I took advantage of this offering to ask a question that was bothering me, without realizing that the expectation of a reasonable reply was apparently contingent on overall benefit to the forum membership.

[ReadWryt]

Rules is Rules is Rules is correct, and the rules which apply to members are just that....rules that apply to members. What the Webmaster has decided to do with the posts of people who are not members is a different matter altogether though, and this is why I didn't think that this needed to be discussed really. The whole thing is ALL about the benefit of the membership in fact because the very reason that posts were left in place was to avoid the confusion of having holes in the flow of threads and threads that benefit the forum dissapearing altogether, otherwise ALL of the posts of rule breakers could just as easily be deleted like so many bad memories...

[Beorn]

To answer the original question:

Ancalagon, mysqlf, Ciryaher, Pont---Lantarion, Rangerdave, ReadWryt, Talierin, and Webmaster generally have access to more information than the rest of the membership. Only some of the acts committed by Harad and Ulairi are seen by the rest of the members of TheTolkienForum.com. Involved in the decision of punishment (banishment or deletion, or a reprimand) include things that the members don't see, either because they don't have the tools that the vBulletin software provides to moderators, or because we get to the posts/problems before other members do.

Originally posted by Webmaster
Why is Ulari's posts still under his name? Because I haven't deleted his account. His membership, if he even desires it, will be dealt with in the near future. Beorn may be able to fill you as to how. That exact nature of that mechanism is still in development.

For my answer, please see This thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5436)

[Grond]

Beorn, the C9 is a great idea and one that I appreciate the WM and moderators for coming up with. It offers the members of the site an amount of decision making authority that will do nothing but improve understanding as to actions taken.

It is also a testament to WM's desire (as I see it) to keep TTF the #1 Tolkien related site on the Web. After all, it is his site to do as he sees fit yet he and RW and the rest of the moderators are constantly surprising me with really great ideas to improve the site in general and improve participant morale at the same time. Good job guys!!!!

[Walter]

Yes, indeed, I too think it's a great idea, in case of it's realisation and assuming it will really be supported by all moderators, and furthermore assuming the mighty ones will actually listen to the suggestions or the counsel of this C9, this will improve the overall quality of the TTF and the cooperation between members and staff.

But we all should be aware that even after this C9 is actually installed, it still will take some time and effort to get it work properly and frictionless, that it will be a slow learning process on all sides.

But once installed and working well it surely will give the members the feeling that they have at least some saying on this forum...

[ReadWryt]

The hope is that the Council of 9 (Almost the Gray Council...for the interest of all the other Bab5 fans out there...we just didn't think it would work with that name though..hehee) can be an accumulative voice for general improvement to the resources and interface between not only the Members and the Forum as a functional community tool, but the Members and the Staff as well. What will need to be pounded out in the short term are the Administrative Details that are the type of thing I dread working on like Selection and installment, order of actions and the ways in which they can effectively and efficiently fill gaps in the communication of ideas and concerns for, of and about the forum...which means writing a LOT of stuff dealing with How and When to act. I know that Dave's Mom is helping him generate some of the "paperwork" because she has lots of experience in writing these type of Guiding Documents and such (YAY MOM!! :) ) and I have no doubts about the abilities of the Moderators and Members to see potential troubles, improvements and changes along the way to creating the body.

I know that if I had a say in the selection process, which in all fairness I feel that I should not in actuality, I would be suggesting Walter and Parrot as two of the members because they would DEFINATELY keep me in line...heh

[Ancalagon]

I like this idea a lot. I think it will help the forum evolve as a whole and manage the concerns of members in a more fair and just method. I will be keen to see how we apply a voting system that members can vote for their council. Therefore choose those whom they would deem best to serve their interests.

I hope it won't be like our local Town Council; who sit on their asses all day getting paid for letting our town go to ruin........oops, sorry, some local political ranting levelled there:)

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I hope it won't be like our local Town Council; who sit on their asses all day getting paid for letting our town go to ruin........oops, sorry, some local political ranting levelled there:) [/B]Anc, are you saying the C9 will get paid????

If so, I might actually consider applying.... j/k :D

Originally posted by ReadWryt
I know that if I had a say in the selection process, which in all fairness I feel that I should not in actuality, I would be suggesting Walter and Parrot as two of the members because they would DEFINATELY keep me in line...heh
What a nice way to say I'm a pain in the a... ;)

But I cannot deny that I can be, at times...

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On a more serious sidenote, of course I find the idea of the C9 (or however it will be called) appealing and think it worth to invest some time and energy into it. But I have been going pregnant with the idea of somewhat like a "Tolkien-knowledgebase" (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5095) for quite a while now and recently I started to set up the basic structure and layout for it. Since this is going to be another "Tolkien-site" on the web, it might be considered a conflict of interests if I would get involved in the C9. As much as I intend this Tolkien-knowledgebase site to be an addition of TTF (as well as other discussion-based Tolkien related sites or the usenet-forum(s)) and maybe establish some form of cooperation, I am certainly aware that this might be seen as a competition rather than anything else by some of the powers of this forum.

[Kyrè]

You know what? My personal opinion is that the forum polictics are getting out of hand:: people are feeling a little antsy over all the changes. My suggestion? Calm down! People are being really mean to each other because over on simple (well thought, in my opinion) question. My point? Do I need one? Do I have to explain it? All of this argueing between two people could be better done in PM's then in the open where humilitating posts can be observed, and then you end up with a whole bunch of unwanted replies. (Like mine)