Gondolin's Strength

[Maedhros]

From the Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin
But the rede that Meglin gave to Melko was that not all the host of the Orcs nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled Melko to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour.
It's interesting to note that Maeglin felt that there was no way that Melkor could have taken Gondolin without "devising" new weapons. Was Gondolin that well made and defended? Or was it just a part of Maeglin's plan to let Melkor spare his life?
Che pensi tu?

[aragil]

Hmm, well, here's some figuring I did on the strength of Gondolin relative to some other Elven realms in Beleriand. Doesn't really answer the question, but I think it provides some good background:

OK, well here's the numbers from Q&E:

Originally there were 144 Elves born near Cuivienen, and the subsequent kindreds are always recalled as numbers of the original 144. What Q&E doesn't give is absolute numbers of elves- they are always relative to 144, though we can imagine that the actual numbers are some multiple of the following:

Vanyar-14
Noldor-28
Aman Teleri-20
Sindar & Nandor-26
General Avari-56

As TE hinted earlier

It is recorded that of all the Noldor in Valinor, who were grown now to a great people, but one tithe (i.e. one tenth) refused to take the road: some for love that they bore to the Valar (and Aule not least), some for the love of Tirion and the many things that they had made; none for fear of peril by the way.
[quote]

So we can imagine that 25 of the 28 Aman Noldor set out for ME, but not all made it. Some perished in the kinslaying at Alqualonde:
[quote]
Thrice the folk of Feanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side


and in the boats after the kinslaying:

But Uinen wept for the mariners of the Teleri; and the sea rose in wrath against the slayers, so that many of the ships were wrecked and those in them drowned.


Also, following the kinslaying, Finarfin brought many of the Noldor back to Tirion:

But in that hour Finrod (Finarfin) forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the house of Feanor, because of his kinship with Olwe of Alqualonde; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow


So what proportion of the 25 that set out continued on the journey? Hard to say- I'd guess between 18 and 22. Next of course comes the loss on the Helcaraxe:

Many there perished, and it was with a lessened host that Fingolfin set foot at last upon the Northalnds of Endar.



By this time most of the 26 Sindar and Nandor were residing in Beleriand, but it is said that

though the Sindar were not numerous they far outnumbered the hosts of Feanor and Fingolfin, such as in the end survived their dreadful journeys and reached Beleriand.


and

though the Sindar were not numerous they much outnumbered the hosts of Feanor and Fingolfin, such as survived their dreadful journey.


So we know that of the 25 Noldor that set out, enough turned back or perished during the foundering of the ships and the crossing of the Helcaraxe that the survivors were 'far outnumbered' by the ~26 Sindar in Beleriand. Now, if I were to wildly guess (what else can I do?), I'd say that about 16 of the original 25 Noldor reached Middle-earth. Next,

Grievous as were their losses upon the road, the people of Fingolfin and Inglor (Finrod) son of Finrod (Finarfin) were still more numerous than the followers of Feanor; wherefore they withdrew before Fingolfin and removed their dwelling to the south-shore, and the Lake (Mithrim) lay between the peoples.


Well, let's put Feanor's folk at 7 and Fingolfin's and the Finarfinians at 9, after

But east of Dorthonion the marches of Beleriand were more open to attack, and only hills of no great height guarded the vale of Gelion from the North. Therefore the sons of Feanor with many folk, well nigh half of the people of the Gnomes, dwelt in that region, upon the Marches of Maidros, and in the lands behind


How much for the Finarfinians?

But Inglor (Finrod) was King of Nargothrond and overlord of the Dark-elves of the western havens; ... Thus his realm was greatest, though he was the youngest of the great lords of the Gnomes, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Maidros, and Inglor Felagund.


I'll give the Finarfinians 3 of the 9, leaving Fingolfin and his sons with 6. Now for Gondolin-

Then Ulmo returned to the Sea; and Turgon sent forth all his folk (even to a third part of the Noldor of Fingolfin's House, and a yet greater host of the Sindar)


Well, this would be 2 of Fingolfin's 6, but how many Sindar? I'll take 4 (who's going to stop me), for a grand total of 6 parts of the original 144 Elves living in Gondolin. We know that Turgon sent out 10,000 (all male) to the Nirnaeth, and I'll assume he left some men back to guard the city, say 2,000. Assuming equal numbers of men and women in Gondolin, that gives the city 24,000 Elves, which we remember is 6 out of every 144 Elves alive at the time. So roughly we get each part of the original 144 Elves as being ~4,000 Elves in First Age 472. Looking back at the top of my post (I can barely see it), that will give us the following numbers (assuming all Elven populations increased uniformly both in Aman and in Middle-earth):

Vanyar (all in Aman): 56,000
Noldor left in Aman: ~24,000, depending on how many returned with Finarfin
Teleri (in Aman): 80,000
Noldor in Middle-earth: 64,000
Sindar and Nandor: 104,000
Avari: 224,000

Remember, the 104,000 Sindar and Nandor were very spread out, some with Cirdan, most of the Nandor were in Ossiriand, many of the Sindar were in Hithlum and Gondolin, and many were with Finrod, so it's very difficult to say how many were in Doriath.
Going back to my figures for the princes of the Noldor:

Fingolfin and Fingon: 4*4,000=16,000 Noldor, unknown # of Sindar
Turgon: 8,000 Noldor + 16,000 Sindar = 24,000 Elves
Finrod, Orod, A & A: 12,000 Noldor, unknown # of Sindar (Avari?)
Sons of Feanor: 28,000 Noldor, unknown # of Sindar
Cirdan: Who knows
Denethor (Nandor): Haven't a clue
Thingol: Anybody's guess

Yeouch that's a lot of speculation. I guess that aside from all my guesses at Noldor attrition during the journey East, the most important assumptions are that Elven populations grew at the same rate and that 10,000 Gondolindrim Males at NA means a total population of 24,000 in Gondolin. Also, I've ignored Sindar/Nandor attrition up to the NA, which could have been a significant amount, considering the fate of Denethor.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
From the Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin

It's interesting to note that Maeglin felt that there was no way that Melkor could have taken Gondolin without "devising" new weapons. Was Gondolin that well made and defended? Or was it just a part of Maeglin's plan to let Melkor spare his life?
Che pensi tu?

Maedhros, I took your advice and am now reading The Fall of Gondolin from the HoME. I've just reached the part where these new weapons have been created.

I think there is a chance that Maeglin told Morgoth what he did just to delay the attack. Maeglin is a slime and after being brought before Melkor he was in fear and perhaps had a small amount of regret for his treason. He hated Gondolin and wanted it's ruin but I think he was not purely evil and so felt a little bad for this. When it came right down to it, Maeglin was affraid of what he had done and what would come of it, so he put the destruction of this city off the only way he could. That is to tell Melkor that that his army isn't yet sufficient.

I could be wrong and may learn more once I finish this story but that is my best idea at this point. :)

PS:I have finished the story now. I still think that he told Morgoth to better his army because he was affraid of what he had done, and also to save his own skin.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by aragil
OK, well here's the numbers from Q&E:

Originally there were 144 Elves born near Cuivienen, and the subsequent kindreds are always recalled as numbers of the original 144. What Q&E doesn't give is absolute numbers of elves- they are always relative to 144, though we can imagine that the actual numbers are some multiple of the following:

Vanyar-14
Noldor-28
Aman Teleri-20
Sindar & Nandor-26
General Avari-56


Hey, where did you find those numbers? And what is Q&E? Please tell me, because if it is reliable, it must have some very important info

[Lhunithiliel]

I would say Maeglin, being of the Elven race, could not have had any good aspirations towards Melkor - the Prime Enemy of the Elves. Neither he hated Gondolin! He hated Tuor and wanted Idril and wanted to rule over Gondolin... So, I too think that his "advice" to Melkor was just to save his skin.
And I am somehow sure that poor Maeglin, again being an Elf, and even bad that he was, he could have never imagined what Melkor was capable to create, especially in this particular case! I don't think Maeglin had ever imagined the disastrous destruction upon his city nor he had ever imagined the monsters that Melkor created to excecute his wrath against Gondolin!

On the other hand, Gondolin had been protected for ages and protected well:
There he heard concerning that city of Gondolin and how unstaying labour through ages of years had not sufficed to its
building and adornment whereat folk' travailed yet; of the delv-
ing of that hidden tunnel he heard, which the folk named the Way
of Escape, and how there had been divided counsels in that
matter, yet pity for the enthralled Noldoli had prevailed in the end
to its making; of the guard without ceasing he was told, that
was held there in arms and likewise at certain low places in the
encircling mountains, and how watchers dwelt ever vigilant on
the highest peaks of that range beside builded beacons ready
for the fire; for never did that folk cease to look for an onslaught
of the Orcs did their stronghold become known.

.....for the Gondothlim had long ago with
unimagined toil levelled and cleared and delved all that plain
about Amon Gwareth, so that scarce Gnome or bird or beast or
snake could approach but was espied from many leagues off, for
among the Gondothlim were many whose eyes were keener than
the very hawks of Manwe Sulimo Lord of Gods and Elves who
dwells upon Taniquetil;..
Besides, the Gondothlim had made fine and strong weapons
Now this great work was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail,
byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields.
Now 'twas said to Tuor that already the whole folk of Gondolin
shooting with bows without stay day or night might not expend
their hoarded arrows in many years, and that yearly their fear of
the Orcs grew the less for this.

We should of course remember also the multitude of guards and the splendour of their armory...
So, Gondolin was well "equipped" for battles.
The people, however, were not ready for war. They as if believed that Gondolin is protected by the Gods if the Eagles of Manwe himself were on guard over their city.

This said, let's turn back to Maeglin.
He knew ALL about the strength of his city and I suppose, or rather speculate, that Maeglin, too, had overestimated the power of Gondolin. It is as if he thought: "I'll tell Melkor where Gondolin is, but he will never be able to enter the city! Gondolin is protected! ..."