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View Full Version : Whassup with the Cave Troll anyway?


Grond
08-07-2002, 07:44 AM
I bought the DVD of The Lord of the Rings yesterday and watched it earlier tonight. I was still disappointed with Liv's enhanced role at the Fords of Bruinen but was shocked at how bogus the Cave Troll scene played. I had completely missed/forgotten about it.

I don't agree with (but can at least understand) PJ's feeling the need to increase Arwen's presence to create a greater love interest angle in the movie. I don't even begin to understand why he completely changed The Chamber of Mazarbul scene. What was wrong withfrom The Fellowship of the Ring, The Bridge of Khazad-dum,

Heavy feet were heard in the corridor. Boromir flung himself against
the door and heaved it to; then he wedged it with broken sword-blades and splinters of wood. The Company retreated to the other side of the chamber. But they had no chance to fly yet. There was a blow on the door that made it quiver; and then it began to grind slowly open, driving back the wedges. A huge arm and shoulder, with a dark skin of greenish scales, was thrust through the widening gap. Then a great, flat, toeless foot was forced through below. There was a dead silence outside.

Boromir leaped forward and hewed at the arm with all his might; but his
sword rang, glanced aside, and fell from his shaken hand. The blade was notched.

Suddenly, and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot wrath blaze up in
his heart. `The Shire! ' he cried, and springing beside Boromir, he stooped, and stabbed with Sting at the hideous foot. There was a bellow, and the foot jerked back, nearly wrenching Sting from Frodo's arm. Black drops dripped from the blade and smoked on the floor. Boromir hurled himself against the door and slammed it again.

`One for the Shire! ' cried Aragorn. `The hobbit's bite is deep! You
have a good blade, Frodo son of Drogo! 'I think this was fine and would have played very well in a visual sense. And this was followed by this quote from the same book and chapter, But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber; behind him his followers clustered in the doorway. His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear. With a thrust of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir's sword and bore him backwards, throwing him to the ground. Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo. The blow caught him on the right side, and Frodo was hurled against the wall and pinned. Sam, with a cry, hacked at the spear-shaft, and it broke. But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, And®ril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head. His followers fled howling, as Boromir and Aragorn sprang at them.And once again I ponder "why on earth would someone want to change that????":(

Darth Saruman
08-07-2002, 09:34 AM
What was wrong with the cave troll?

It looked good, imo.

In Flames
08-07-2002, 12:16 PM
I really liked the scene with the troll, but he didnt look anything near what i expected him to look.

In Flames
08-07-2002, 12:45 PM
Hehe.. I sure would love to hear your imitation of the dying troll Confusticated:p

As for Aragorn not coming to Frodos aid faster, i havent noticed that, but i sure will look for it the next time i watch the movie.

In Flames
08-07-2002, 02:01 PM
Nice..I can't wait :)

Grond
08-07-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Darth Saruman
What was wrong with the cave troll?

It looked good, imo. First, the cave troll reminded me of one of the claymation characters that were done in the 50's movies. His movement wasn't very real and it looked totally fake when members of the fellowship jumped on him.

Secondly, the beast did not fit my image of a Cave Troll. I expected something more solid (Shrek-like but not green :)) and slightly more intelligent. But, I will give you that this is just personal taste.

Thirdly, as illustrated by the quotes I provided at the beginning of this thread, the cave troll was not in the friggin battle at all... other than poking his foot through the door and getting it stabbed by good ole Sting. Another pointless change. In my mind, the Chamber of Mazarbul was smaller as described in the book and everyone was in much closer quarters. That was how the Orc-captain was able to quickly turn Aragorn's blade and stab Frodo with the spear. I also missed Anduril splitting the Orc's head in two. That was one of the more dramatic scenes (in toto) of the whole Moria experience.

Fourthly, these are just my opinions... LOL Everyone's got one and everyone is free to disagree with mine. ;)

Ponte
08-07-2002, 06:25 PM
Grond is right it should be the orc-chieftan that should stab Frodo with the spear.

In Flames
08-07-2002, 06:31 PM
Yes! And mithril or not, if you think about the strenght a troll would have, wouldnt he have just pushed that mail right out of Frodos back?

Dwarf Lord
08-07-2002, 06:49 PM
The biggest thing that i hated is how they make frodo out to be some sort of wuss. all his seens where he shows courage are taken out. For example him stabbing the troll, and the at the ford he didn't stand against the ringwraiths. One cool thing about the movies was when they were in the troll shawls you could see one of the trolls on the back ground.:D



DWARF LORD

Darth Saruman
08-07-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Grond
First, the cave troll reminded me of one of the claymation characters that were done in the 50's movies. His movement wasn't very real and it looked totally fake when members of the fellowship jumped on him.

Well, that is indicative of the state of computer graphics in the movie industry in general. It doesn't all work perfectly. Even some of the creatures in Star Wars Episode II didn't look that great in my opinion. Then there were the complaints that the cg in Spider-Man didn't look that great either. That being said, I did think that the Troll was very well done, as well as did the Fellowship who jumped up on it.

Thirdly, as illustrated by the quotes I provided at the beginning of this thread, the cave troll was not in the friggin battle at all... other than poking his foot through the door and getting it stabbed by good ole Sting. Another pointless change. In my mind, the Chamber of Mazarbul was smaller as described in the book and everyone was in much closer quarters. That was how the Orc-captain was able to quickly turn Aragorn's blade and stab Frodo with the spear. I also missed Anduril splitting the Orc's head in two. That was one of the more dramatic scenes (in toto) of the whole Moria experience.

The Cave Troll added a nice touch. It was thrilling and it all provided an actual challenge; the Fellowship seems to be able to kill the orcs so easily. Also, to have the Fellowship just fight orcs would have meant more of the same later on, at the final battle at the end of the movie.

Grond
08-07-2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Darth Saruman
...The Cave Troll added a nice touch. It was thrilling and it all provided an actual challenge; the Fellowship seems to be able to kill the orcs so easily. Also, to have the Fellowship just fight orcs would have meant more of the same later on, at the final battle at the end of the movie. They had just had an encounter with the Watcher in the Water. They were just about to have a very CG intensive (and well done I might add) encounter with a Balrog. I feel it was totally unnecessary to deviate from the book in this instance. The Orc-chieftan would have required no CGI and could have been made to look as equally intimidating as the Lurtz character and still remained different. One must remember that the Orc-chieftan was an Uruk-hai of Mordor while Lurtz was an Uruk-hai of Isengard. They were very different in appearance as described in the books but each were equally as big, ugly and dangerous.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

In Flames
08-07-2002, 09:44 PM
Why thank you Confusticated! I do try my best:p

PRH
08-08-2002, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by Grond
One must remember that the Orc-chieftan was an Uruk-hai of Mordor while Lurtz was an Uruk-hai of Isengard.
Uruk of Mordor, but that's a whole other argument!

I don't think the book version would've played right in the movie. Having the troll just peek it's foot in the door then run off after being stabbed would've been kind of strange cinematically. PJ's options were either to eliminate the troll altogether or bring it into the room and into the fight.

I personally don't like the fact that the troll stabbed Frodo. I agree that the protection of the Mithril just doesn't make sense against the troll's strength. Frodo should've been crushed even if not pierced.

I think the orc chieftain could've still been introduced WITH the troll a part of the fight. The focus on the troll would've just had to be a little lessened.

I agree the troll doesn't look entirely real but I just can't put my finger on why. I can't spot the flaw. I think a lot of it is just the surrealistic perspecitve of it we get the whole time (looking up at an angle). I thought the CG Merry & Pippin hopping on the troll looked good but the CG Legolas didn't quite fool the eye. Close, very close, but not quite.

Darth Saruman
08-08-2002, 03:39 AM
quote:
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Originally posted by Grond
One must remember that the Orc-chieftan was an Uruk-hai of Mordor while Lurtz was an Uruk-hai of Isengard.
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I also think that maybe, at least for FOTR, they wanted the Uruk-hai to remain unique to Isengard. That way, there would be not as much confusion for layman audiences.

Grond
08-08-2002, 04:30 AM
Again, I'm not arguing that the movie didn't work. Heck, I watched it again last night and will at least watch some of it again tonight. I guess I am being somewhat of a hypocrite in screaming about the variances with the book and then watching the film over and over... but I still feel it would have been oh so much better had they just stuck to the script as the author wrote it and not as it was adapted by PJ. But that's just the Grondster talking. :);)

ReadWryt
08-08-2002, 10:48 AM
PJ's options were either to eliminate the troll altogether or bring it into the room and into the fight.

You forgot the other option, make the Troll a Girl...he then could say that she was a "strong female character"... :)

Grond
08-08-2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by ReadWryt


You forgot the other option, make the Troll a Girl...he then could say that she was a "strong female character"... :) :D :D :D !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

PRH
08-09-2002, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by ReadWryt
You forgot the other option, make the Troll a Girl...he then could say that she was a "strong female character"...
Who's to say it wasn't? No mammaries may be the only indicator...

I'll gladly refer to the troll as female from here on out.

I also forgot to mention that I too missed Aragorn cleaving the chieftain's hear in two. Aragorn in the movie showed a strong affinity to beheadings, seems like a full lobotomy would've been right up his alley.