A Long-Expected Party

[Ancalagon]

As you know The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil has been keen to arrange debates between The Guilds within The Tolkien Forum.
Before I go any further, I would like to point out that this is very much in the same 'tried and tested' style as employed in http://forums.lotronline.com/ whom I gratefully appreciate and acknowledge.

Therefore, I would like to suggest that The Guild of Periaur select up to four contributors from their Guild membership and consider whether they will accept our challenge.

The process will include a 5-day debate on a selected 'Tolkien Related' topic, 2 teams will participate actively in the debate (which must include contributions from all team members to be valid) 2 judges and one open poll for all forum members who wish to cast their vote.

Grond has selected a question and has also agreed to act as one of the judges. This seems particularly fair as Grond would love nothing more than to ridicule his own Guild colleagues with his superior knowledge;)

I would also hope that Cian would act as a judge as he would also be totally independent in his summation of the debate.

What say you............

[Walter]

Hmmm, I guess I'm getting old and weary... ;)

As much as I enjoy an intelligent knowledge-exchange or thought-exchange, institutionalizing it to a "competition", or "arguing just for the sake of it", eventually with a topic I possibly couldn't care less about and - to top that off - eventually with judges who are biased, is not quite my favorite hobby.

Things are different of course, if e.g. a list of topics (eventually already with the judges settled) would be pre-existing and one could choose which topic and which side just by filling her/his name into the list. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a guild vs. guild debate.

e.g.

Topic 1: Topic-description

Judges: membernn, memberpq, etc.
Pro: memberxy (guildA), memberzz (guildA) memberab(guildC)
Contra: member

Topic2: dtto


As soon as one topic is "full" the time can be settled in agreement and the debate held.

[Grond]

I don't have to be a judge. I have the topic picked out and we will allow the challenged guild to pick which side of the argument they want to argue. I can't make it more fair than that.

A good alternative judge to me would be Aragil or Parrot. Let's hope we can set this up soon. I know that Maedhros will be anxious to get started. :)

[Maedhros]

I know that Maedhros will be anxious to get started.
I'm in. Although, the person that I want to debate is not in your guild.:(

[Walter]

Grond,

my post was meant as a suggestion as to how such "debating competitions" could be organized in way, where I - personally - would find them more appealing. It was not meant as a complaint about you being judge.

I have taken great delight in debating just for the sake of it or to show off my debating skills in my younger years (e.g. at university). By now, I feel beyond that age and a debate has to be either about a topic that interests me greatly and I think that with taking part I could improve my insight, knowledge or maybe a little wisdom, or when I feel there is someone I'd like to tackle, as an opponent. If neither one is the case I consider it a waste of time and energy...

[7doubles]

here is a good topic, war brings progress

[Gamil Zirak]

Originally posted by 7doubles
here is a good topic, war brings progress
That has nothing to do with Tolkien (not directly anyway).

I can't speak for the rest of the members of the guild, but I think we should participate in the debate. I also think the judging style seems fair and don't have a problem with Grond as a judge. I just hope our Guild leader sees this thread and officially accepts the challenge.

[Elbereth]

Many appologies!

I have had a very busy weekend so I haven't been able to check into TTF. (truth be know - I was enjoying my summer!!) Anyway, I have noted the challenge and support the idea of a debate. However, does the Guild of the Periaur currently have enough members who are willing to debate?

So far I only see the following members who appear interested:

Maedhros
Gamil Zirak

I of course will step up to debate... However, i would like to see if anyone else from the G of the P are interested in debating.

Let's establish the teams first before we jump into anything.

[Gamil Zirak]

Terms? Ok. I would like a "green" room while I'm waiting for the debate to get started. In my green room I would like chocolate covered donuts, lots and lots of ice cream, and candy. Also, can we through the losing team into the ocean?

[Walter]

...and you didn't even mention the Playboy bunnies, serving you the snacks...

Now I feel almost tempted to take part, I mean you seem pretty confident you will win and I just would love to get "throughn" into the ocean by you ;)

[Gamil Zirak]

I can't believe I forgot those play boy bunnies. I would definately lose just to get thrown into the ocean (on a raft of course) with them.

[In Flames]

Hey all!

How exactly does this debate work? Is it between a certain time like 5-8pm on a Tuesday for example? I live in Sweden so if its day/evening in the US, its night here. And how "serious" is the debate, cause my debate skills arent that good :o I wouldnt wanna mess up for my team mates. And im not the best at English.

[Gamil Zirak]

It will probably last a week and won't be in the format of one team states an argument and the other counters. It will probably be more like a free-for-all type debate.

[Maedhros]

It will probably last a week and won't be in the format of one team states an argument and the other counters. It will probably be more like a free-for-all type debate.
I was hoping that there were going to be 2 teams, one pro and the other counters the argument.

[Gamil Zirak]

I meant that you won't have a typical debate type format. I.E. One sides says blah then the other side has counters and vice versa. That's hard to do via the internet. We would have two teams. Us against whoever (in this instance the geriatrics). We have a side and they have a side, but we don't have to wait for each other to try and debunk our argument before we come up with a new one.

[Grond]

The debate will be conducted over a one week period. I will announce the topic and allow the Guild of the Periaur to select which side of the argument that they wish to argue. We will then have the challengers (Ost-in-Edhil) begin with a post which outlines their position and the Periaur's will respond with a general post outlining their position. From that point on, anyone of the eight debaters (4 per side) will be able to post and comment/counter prior posts or bring forth totally new ideas or both.

I will act as a moderator to keep the debate in decorum and on track. I will also clarify any procedural questions that may arise. It will be fair, fun and challenging. I hope we can make this happen. It is a very, very fun undertaking. :)

[Gamil Zirak]

I guess that's a no on the ice cream?

[Walter]

No bunnies either? ;)

[Parrot]

Send the Hammer a big old Bob Marley spliff of Guatamalan Gold and I bet you can have your bunnies ala mode. (hey that almost rhymes)

[Maedhros]

It will be fair, fun and challenging. I hope we can make this happen. It is a very, very fun undertaking.
I can't wait. But, who is in the other roster then?
I hope this will serve as an example to those who think that debate for the sake or arguing is uncalled for.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros

I can't wait. But, who is in the other roster then?
I hope this will serve as an example to those who think that debate for the sake or arguing is uncalled for. A debate is not an endeavor undertaken for the sake of argument. In this case, it will be done for the purpose of exploring all aspects of Tolkien's work concerning one given topic. Some may be furthering an idea that they don't necessarily agree with. That is the real challenge of a debate... furthering a valid opinion... even when it is at variance with your own. :)

[Walter]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I hope this will serve as an example to those who think that debate for the sake or arguing is uncalled for....now the "fine arts of dialectics", that's an entirely different story, isn't it? ;)

[Maedhros]

I hope that Gothmog is on the roster of the other side. He's one the best debators and I hope to have the privilege to debate him again.

[Ancalagon]

I am quite certain our good master Gothmog will relish the opportunity. Then again, I have to ask him........Gothmog, will you relish the opportunity?

[Elbereth]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gamil Zirak
Terms? Ok. I would like a "green" room while I'm waiting for the debate to get started. In my green room I would like chocolate covered donuts, lots and lots of ice cream, and candy. Also, can we through the losing team into the ocean?

Gamil...I didn't say terms I said we need to establish the teams.

Who is on each team?

Oh, and sorry boys... no playboy bunnies ...their pink fluffy tails would be too distracting. (amongst other things :rolleyes: )

[Ancalagon]

This is my proposed team for The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil. Then again, they have to accept, so it is still only a proposal;)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5654

[Gamil Zirak]

Sorry Elbereth. I need to get my eyes check I think.

[Maedhros]

And the Periaur team is?

[aragil]

Depending on how long people want to wait for the debate, I'd certainly be willing to join the Periaur team. Unfortunately (for the purpose of me being on the debating team, anyways), I'll be out of reach from Aug 17th- Sept 3rd. Equally unfortunately, I've let preparations for my trip interfere woefully with my duty to gather more Periaur recruits (apologies to Elbereth). So, if everyone wants to wait around a bit, I'd be available, as well as (hopefully) hordes of new Periaur, just itching for the opportunity to show the geriatrics exactly how far senility has sunk in.
On the other hand, if Elbereth, Gamil Zirak, Maedhros and In Flames would like to represent the Glorious Guild in our first outing, then I have absolute faith that they'd do a wonderful job. I also have faith that there'll be plenty of more debates coming around between the two guilds, so I wouldn't feel too excluded if this happens while I was gone. A good debate (as it doubtless will be) would also help in getting new recruits into both guilds, methinks.

[Maedhros]

So Elbereth, when is the Periaur roster going to be set oficially, so that we can start debating with the old people.

[Walter]

aaach those youngins - no patience at all ;)

[Elbereth]

geeesh guys...give me a break! I'm fighting a darn war here. :rolleyes:

If all is in favor I will elect to nominate aragil's suggested four:

Gamil Zirak
Maedhros
InFlames
and myself

However, if there is a Periaur out there who hasn't been mentioned and is terribly anxious to join the debate...Please speak now. Otherwise we we go with the four listed above.

[In Flames]

Hi all!

I will be leaving for the Canary Islands :D on Tuesday.. So i suggest someone in the guild to take my place in the debate, as i will be sitting by a pool with a exotic beverage in my hand. (mmm...local beer..) I will be away for 2 weeks.

I hope there is someone who can fill in for me!

[Gamil Zirak]

I'm sure we can find someone to fill your place In Flames. As for Maedhros and myself. We will be quite busy next week in a debate on another forum, but we shouldn't have any problem participating fully in this one.

[Maedhros]

I would like to propose to the debate organizer (Grond) to set a date for the debate to begin, so that we can find another person who can fill in or InFlames or we can make the debate with less people per side.
Just an idea, because I can't wait for the debate to begin.

[Grond]

I propose the debate begin on Monday morning at 8:00 AM Central Daylight Time. :)

[Parrot]

Hey, you Tween(kie)s should see it that Jerry Attric guy you keep talking about could fill in.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Parrot
Hey, you Tween(kie)s should see it that Jerry Attric guy you keep talking about could fill in.
??????????????????????????????:confused:

[Grond]

Debate is on. The topic is chosen and may be viewed at
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5769

We begin at midnight tonight and go on for one week. It will end at midnight next Sunday.

Good luck and I look forward to many great and insightful arguments. :)

[Elbereth]

Periaur teammembers...please contact me so that we can decide which position we are taking in this debate.

[Grond]

The Dagor Aglareb is officially ended. It was an interesting subject (after all, I picked it) and it was extremely well argued on both sides. I am awaiting a response from Aragil before I open the Vote thread.

The judging will be as follows:
There are four judges
1) Me - representing the Ost-in-Edhil
2) DGoeij - representing the Periaur
3) Parrot - independent judge
4) Aragil (hopefully) - independent judge
5) General poll (counts as one vote in aggregate. whoever wins the poll gets the vote).

So, in essence there are five votes to be tallied. Each of the individual judges will post their vote with an explanation as to why they voted the way they did. What particular arguments were the most persuasive, etc. :)

Good luck to all and in this particular debate there were no losers. It was a great discussion.

[Maedhros]

Ok, but I have to tell you that I'm tired of that particular debate. It was fun too.;)

[Grond]

My sincerest apologies for not having this debate better organized. I am still awaiting to hear from Aragil and Parrot has decided he hasn't the time to review the voluminous material so I have asked Tar-Elenion to sub as a judge. I await to hear from both he Tar and Aragil.

[Maedhros]

Isn't Aragil on a trip?